Forum Settings
       
This Forum is Read Only

Difference between miss and evade.Follow

#1 Sep 14 2010 at 2:27 PM Rating: Good
***
1,608 posts
What is the difference between a miss and evade, aren't they the same thing?

Some moves will only activate after an evade, but a miss is not recognized.
____________________________

#2 Sep 14 2010 at 2:33 PM Rating: Good
***
1,949 posts
Typically they are the same thing in most MMOs, but there are some who actually consider differently.

I'll describe a theorical system, which may have nothing to do with FFXIV's (since I haven't really parsed it or anything)
Let's say you have a 86% accuracy score. You have 14% chance to miss your attack. Therefore, if you strike 100 times, 86 of your hits should connect. If you are fighting an evasive mob, he might have, for instance, 40% chance to evade your attacks. That means only 51.6 of your 100 hits would connect.

100 attacks: 14 miss, 34 evades and 52 hits.

But in a nutshell, this means that Haymaker gets better once you get featherstep (100% chance to evade the next attack), but things like concussion blow, which reduce accuracy, will not cause more evades, therefore haymaker opportunities.

WoW has always considered hit, miss and dodges, and that was very important for some abilities (like warrior's overpower, etc.). In WoW's case, it works differently, and a 86% accuracy with 14% miss chance would fall down to 46% accuracy, 40% dodge and 14% miss chance. (Compared to the above system of 52% hit, 14% miss, 34% evade, even if the official evasion is 40%). That's the difference between a single-roll model and consecutive roll, pretty much.

/gamedesigner out.
____________________________
FFXIV: Cloe Delisle Scholar, officer of the SWAGGER Free company, Sargatanas server.
#3 Sep 14 2010 at 2:36 PM Rating: Good
Scholar
***
1,536 posts
A miss is a miss - you swing, you whiff, you miss. An evade is when someone physically evades your attack - you swing, mob ducks to dodge your attack, it evades. In practice its the same thing but certain statistics can alter your chances at evading (typically more apparent with armor pieces that help increase evasion, or adds something like "evade and counter").
____________________________
MUTED
#4 Sep 14 2010 at 2:37 PM Rating: Decent
*
51 posts
evade is weapon accuracy passed but the target evaded that strike
miss is weapon accuracy didn't pass.

ie, your weapon got 76% accuracy and the mob got 20% evade ability.
so you get 76% hit and 24% miss on your part.
and when that 76% hit on the target, there's 20% of chance that hit won't land on the target and resault an evade on mob's part.
#5 Sep 14 2010 at 2:38 PM Rating: Excellent
From a realistic standpoint, a miss is when you don't hit your target but they made no effort to avoid your strike. Evasion is when your attack would have connected, but the target moved out of the path of your attack. Compare not being able to hit the broad side of a barn to having trouble swatting a fly.

I'm not sure how that applies in-game though.



Edited, Sep 14th 2010 2:41pm by LadyOfHolyDarkness
#6 Sep 14 2010 at 2:39 PM Rating: Good
Sage
***
1,675 posts
Docent42 wrote:
Typically they are the same thing in most MMOs, but there are some who actually consider differently.

I'll describe a theorical system, which may have nothing to do with FFXIV's (since I haven't really parsed it or anything)
Let's say you have a 86% accuracy score. You have 14% chance to miss your attack. Therefore, if you strike 100 times, 86 of your hits should connect. If you are fighting an evasive mob, he might have, for instance, 40% chance to evade your attacks. That means only 51.6 of your 100 hits would connect.

100 attacks: 14 miss, 34 evades and 52 hits.

But in a nutshell, this means that Haymaker gets better once you get featherstep (100% chance to evade the next attack), but things like concussion blow, which reduce accuracy, will not cause more evades, therefore haymaker opportunities.

WoW has always considered hit, miss and dodges, and that was very important for some abilities (like warrior's overpower, etc.). In WoW's case, it works differently, and a 86% accuracy with 14% miss chance would fall down to 46% accuracy, 40% dodge and 14% miss chance. (Compared to the above system of 52% hit, 14% miss, 34% evade, even if the official evasion is 40%). That's the difference between a single-roll model and consecutive roll, pretty much.

/gamedesigner out.



I hate math, but this was very clear and to the point. This is how I've understood it as well; I just couldn't put it into words.

It gets really confusing in a WoW type or other western (heavily math based) system.
#7 Sep 14 2010 at 2:50 PM Rating: Good
***
1,608 posts
Thank you, I see now, so you basically have to go through two checks before your hit may connect.
____________________________

#8 Sep 14 2010 at 3:12 PM Rating: Good
***
1,949 posts
LyleVertigo wrote:
Thank you, I see now, so you basically have to go through two checks before your hit may connect.

I'm not saying it's how it works, because both WoW and FFXIV will display "Hit", "Miss" or "Evade". (single roll vs multi-roll)

WoW is an example of a game where you determine the result with a single roll, which cause some problems with their system with every expansion, basically tanks reaching a point where their evasion is high enough to become unhittable. (They "fixed" it with Diminishing returns, which only slows the issue down)

FFXI also dealt with Accuracy vs Evasion the same way (single roll), but added other rolls for parry and shield. (It was bundling accuracy with evasion in 1 roll. Base hit was 75%, every 2 accuracy was +1%, every 2 evasion for the mob was -1%)

Which game's footsteps does FFXIV follow? Single-roll? 4 rolls per hit? (accuracy, then evasion, then parry, then shield) Nobody really knows right now.

In a nutshell, though, something that reduces enemy's accuracy will not increase EVADES in XIV. You need to increase your evasion for that to happen. (Absorb Evasion, Featherstep, Evasion on gear, etc.)

I.e. we know it can't work the same way XI does it, because XI couldn't distinguish evasion from misses.

Edit: To add to the problem; lowering a mob's accuracy, depending on the situation, might help reduce damage, but would also lower the number of hits you have to evade against, meaning that you'd get fewer haymakers, which means lower damage, effectively making -Accuracy debuff counter-productive. (The same way the "slow" spell reduce gladiator's damage output quite drastically by killing their phalanx spam). Obviously, those abilities (concussion blow, slow, etc.) remain useful on a purely defensive point of view; it just doesn't double-tap by also providing extra damage as one would expect.

Edited, Sep 14th 2010 5:15pm by Docent42
____________________________
FFXIV: Cloe Delisle Scholar, officer of the SWAGGER Free company, Sargatanas server.
#9 Sep 14 2010 at 4:28 PM Rating: Decent
Sage
**
393 posts
What about critical hit? And partial/full resistance to your attacks or magic spells? How are those determined? I'm guessing after your hit connects, it has to go through another set of calculations based on your strength vs. mob's defense, before the final damage is determined...Sounds complex. -_-;;;
____________________________
Smilies for premium users only? Bah, I'll just...oh wait.
へ へ
の の
 も
 へ

#10 Sep 14 2010 at 4:32 PM Rating: Good
Sage
*
130 posts
I like your statement, but until now this is not a fact. It is all speculation. And if the mechanism works like FFXI then accuracy has a relation with evasion. In which it can be complemented with parry, block and so on.

Also it is probably impossible to have a character with 100% invincibility. There are probably hidden caps or demishing returns on attributes. Especially if a skill increases a certain attribute by a certain percentage, in this case it is impossible to get 100% evasion, block etc. Also in my believe, seeing I can still miss a low level mob, miss chance is based on a static amount, like 5% for example. This means you will always miss regardless your accuracy. Now we could go further that miss chance is based on level difference plus a static amount with a minimum, which has no relation with accuracy at all.

All of now is speculation. In release we will see tests where you can make some conclusion based on those tests, where we can say it is a fact. Till then no one knows.

Some information from SE regarding Gladiator description.

"Some opponents have too much accuracy to evade; some have too great of a reach to make polearms effective defense weapons; and some are just too powerful to take direct attacks from without a shield. This is where you shine, Gladiators--protectors when all others have failed."

This implies that accuracy is related to evasion. In which case Concussive Blow does increase evasion and there for Haymaker can trigger more often.


Edited, Sep 14th 2010 8:26pm by Shoomy
#11 Sep 14 2010 at 4:46 PM Rating: Good
Sage
*
130 posts
uomaru wrote:
What about critical hit? And partial/full resistance to your attacks or magic spells? How are those determined? I'm guessing after your hit connects, it has to go through another set of calculations based on your strength vs. mob's defense, before the final damage is determined...Sounds complex. -_-;;;


Crit is just a chance to do more (double) damage, which probably has no counter from the mob. Still this could be a false statement as gear has resilience which could imply that it reduces crit chance of the attacker. Crit is calculated when a hit connects. So if a hit connects, the server rolls a dice of 100, if this is within your crit chance you crit, else not.

Resistance is based on the elemental resistance. If you do for example fire damage and the mob has a high fire resistance, the damage will be lower. Basically a certain % is deducted from max possible damage. This is also calculated after the spell hit connects. Spells can also miss, then you will see "0" damage done.

Defense works the same as elemental resistance, except elemental max damage is based on INT and physical damage on STR.
#12 Sep 14 2010 at 4:56 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
Avatar
***
1,235 posts
You throw a ball at a tree and it misses because you made a bad throw. That's a miss.

You throw a ball at your opponent in dodgeball, and he jumps out of the way and doesn't get hit. That's evade.
____________________________


"Don't take it personally man, white knights would eat a can of **** if the label said SE on it. If anyone dared mention that it was not a good product, they'd just argue if someone can't appreciate the subtle nuances in the ****, they should just go back to eating lolrealfood, cuz the devs prolly know more about canning food than they do."
#13 Sep 14 2010 at 5:24 PM Rating: Good
Sage
*
130 posts
Restyoneck wrote:
You throw a ball at a tree and it misses because you made a bad throw. That's a miss.

You throw a ball at your opponent in dodgeball, and he jumps out of the way and doesn't get hit. That's evade.


If you throw a ball with dodgeball, but your aim (accuracy) is very good and the one who you throw to can hardly jump (evasion) and hit him ?!?
#14 Sep 14 2010 at 6:53 PM Rating: Good
Shoomy wrote:
Restyoneck wrote:
You throw a ball at a tree and it misses because you made a bad throw. That's a miss.

You throw a ball at your opponent in dodgeball, and he jumps out of the way and doesn't get hit. That's evade.


If you throw a ball with dodgeball, but your aim (accuracy) is very good and the one who you throw to can hardly jump (evasion) and hit him ?!?


A hit's a hit regardless of attempts at evasion.

There's 4 scenarios I can see with the dodgeball situation.

1. Thrower hits target that makes no attempt to move: Thrower has sufficient accuracy. HIT
2. Thrower does not hit target that makes no attempt to move: Thrower misses due to poor accuracy. MISS
3. Thrower hits target that makes an attempt to move: Thrower's accuracy is better than target's evasion. HIT
4. Thrower does not hit target that makes an attempt to move: Thrower's accuracy is worse than target's evasion. EVADE

The problem with a moving target is you don't know which way it'll try to dodge or at what speed usually... unless you're shooting at something that was already in motion and can't stop, like shooting in someone's flight path or something.

Edited, Sep 14th 2010 6:57pm by LadyOfHolyDarkness
This forum is read only
This Forum is Read Only!
Recent Visitors: 15 All times are in CST
Anonymous Guests (15)