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#1 Sep 15 2010 at 1:06 AM Rating: Good
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I been tanking in some exp grind parties and have been gettin crappy xp due to never having the stamina after getting enmity and buffing up. I usually place defender on before the fights, but there is sometimes you have to reapply in mid fight. Block don't take up much stamina but it does take up time and you have to reapply it in mid fight at times. Not really sure how cure is doing as far as helping with hate, but it takes stamina and time also. Now provoke and taunt take up a good chunk of the stamina bar and if you don't have enough stamina when provoke is ready then you have to wait.

Sometimes I get nice skill xp and other times I don't get any. Think this is something that will be adjusted or we'll just have to find away around it? Maybe they'll reduce the taunt/provoke stamina usage? I seen there is an ability you can buy with guild points to lengthen your block time.

Not sure since I really haven't played as a healer, but how much exp are you getting for healing? I know there was a problem where healers weren't getting anything. Now is it worth just being a stright healer or do you still need to fight to get decent xp? I noticed that I got better xp using spirit dart over and over instead of nuking the mob.

Maybe these things are still in process of being adjusted. Lets hope so.
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#2 Sep 15 2010 at 1:20 AM Rating: Excellent
It wouldn't surprise me if they're being adjusted. Can't say for sure either way.

What I can say is that adjusted or not, ur doin it wrong.

The stamina bar is supposed to be the mechanic in the game that sets the pace. If you're constantly out of stamina, it means you need to slow down. You made a very sagacious point: if you're out of stamina and you need to Provoke, you're boned waiting for it to recharge. And when people finally break out of the "Provoke in XIV works the same as it does in XI because it has the same name" mindset, they'll finally realize that the last thing you want is to find yourself needing to Provoke and not having the stamina to do it.

The idea around managing stamina in a fight is that you should never be sitting on a full stamina bar for any significant length of time (you're wasting stamina if you do) and you should never be out of stamina at any given time (unless you've just depleted it performing an ******* maneuver). It will take most people some time to settle in with their preferred classes and find a pace that allows them to be working a smooth rotation and not just going bawls out at the start of a fight and then perpetually waiting for their stamina gauge to fill up before they can do anything else. Right now, people are just spamming. It makes it difficult for tanks who then have to spam as well just to try to keep up with the enmity, but at the end of the day people are going to have to learn or they're just going to be mediocre players.
#3 Sep 15 2010 at 1:24 AM Rating: Good
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Well problems i see with the current system is that tanks and healers will be getting less skill ups then dps classes. Healing and Tanking both don't give you as much skill ups as just auto-attacking let alone dmg abilities. There needs to be just a base skill up on defeating a mob to fix this. I.E. Every marmot you defeat gives you 100 skill ups, etc.
#4 Sep 15 2010 at 1:34 AM Rating: Default
Nokturnal wrote:
Well problems i see with the current system is that tanks and healers will be getting less skill ups then dps classes. Healing and Tanking both don't give you as much skill ups as just auto-attacking let alone dmg abilities. There needs to be just a base skill up on defeating a mob to fix this. I.E. Every marmot you defeat gives you 100 skill ups, etc.


No there doesn't need to be a base skill up for defeating a mob. (And because I'm nitpicking that way, there's no auto attack, either).

There's a strategy to grouping effectively in virtually every MMO on the market today. It starts with the tank engaging and establishing threat. Contrary to popular belief, it's not the tank's primary job to hold threat and keep mobs off the damage classes. It's the tank's job to keep the mob(s) off the healer(s). It's the job of the dps to damage the mob while remaining under the tank's hate threshold.

A good tank with a properly tuned class will be able to hold threat through a substantial amount of dps, but if you're having to go bawls out and deplete your stamina in the first few seconds of a fight because your dps aren't giving you time to establish enough enmity, that's their fault. People need to be patient and think about what they're doing. And if they do that, you'll find that not only do you get a couple of free hits on the mob before the dps even really get started, but you'll have much better control over your stamina so you're not constantly waiting to use your abilities. It also means that healers will be able to play a much more strategic and controlled game instead of constantly having to react to damage spikes all over the party that render their healing options less efficient.

And in case I didn't make it clear earlier: Tanks need to stop using Taunt and Provoke in their threat rotation. That's not what they're for.


Edited, Sep 15th 2010 12:38am by Aurelius
#5 Sep 15 2010 at 1:48 AM Rating: Good
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I literally thought the OP title was "Rant Skills"

I was like, this is gonna be good. . .
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#6 Sep 15 2010 at 8:54 AM Rating: Decent
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Oh good I wasn't the only one that saw rant skills.
#7 Sep 15 2010 at 9:08 AM Rating: Good
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This is a big concern of mine also. I did notice that you can get sword skill up points for using Provoke but my issue is still that everything takes way too much stamina.

Guard definitely needs to be reworked. Stopping when your shield arm falls and how quick your shield arm falls being my two biggest complaints. Things like Provoke, Rampart and Still Precision shouldn't take anymore stamina than Phalanx...

In all honestly the whole stamina system needs to be looked at. I don't mind it being in there but it certainly needs some tweaking.

Edited, Sep 15th 2010 11:09am by Sasorex
#8 Sep 15 2010 at 9:14 AM Rating: Decent
Sasorex wrote:
This is a big concern of mine also. I did notice that you can get sword skill up points for using Provoke but my issue is still that everything takes way too much stamina.

Guard definitely needs to be reworked. Stopping when your shield arm falls and how quick your shield arm falls being my two biggest complaints. Things like Provoke, Rampart and Still Precision shouldn't take anymore stamina than Phalanx...

In all honestly the whole stamina system needs to be looked at. I don't mind it being in there but it certainly needs some tweaking.


Rampart isn't intended to be used all the time. That's why it has such a lengthy cooldown. It's an emergency ability, and part of its usefulness lies in having managed your stamina properly up to the point where you use it.

And there are better ways to generate enmity on a target that's already attacking you besides Provoke.

It seems everyone is looking like Gladiator abilities as though they're playing XI, where you had a (relatively) limited number of abilities at your disposal and you were frequently inclined to use all of them whenever they were available. It's a different game, but everywhere I go people are still trying to mash it into XI constructs.

I agree that forcing your character model to stop every time your shield arm falls is an iffy mechanic. But as far as the duration, it just takes some getting used to.
#9 Sep 15 2010 at 9:29 AM Rating: Good
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The One and Only Aurelius wrote:
Sasorex wrote:
This is a big concern of mine also. I did notice that you can get sword skill up points for using Provoke but my issue is still that everything takes way too much stamina.

Guard definitely needs to be reworked. Stopping when your shield arm falls and how quick your shield arm falls being my two biggest complaints. Things like Provoke, Rampart and Still Precision shouldn't take anymore stamina than Phalanx...

In all honestly the whole stamina system needs to be looked at. I don't mind it being in there but it certainly needs some tweaking.

And there are better ways to generate enmity on a target that's already attacking you besides Provoke.

It seems everyone is looking like Gladiator abilities as though they're playing XI, where you had a (relatively) limited number of abilities at your disposal and you were frequently inclined to use all of them whenever they were available. It's a different game, but everywhere I go people are still trying to mash it into XI constructs.


*This is not an "offensive" post. So please do not get defensive.*

Have you tried playing Gladiator in the beta? It is nigh impossible to actually tank with the way things are now. In several parties I have been the highest ranking and highest physical level member. Parties where I've been rank 15 and everyone else is sub rank 10 and I still couldn't not efficiently hold hate even when spamming Phalanx, Provoke, Taunt and tossing in some cures. If that's the way it's supposed to be then OK but I really don't think that even small "party mobs" are meant to be tanked by multiple tanks. So if the FFXIV construct is to need to have multiple tanks even on single party mobs then I guess they're doing a good job but if it's not and it's supposed to be more like FFXI then it needs some tweaking.





#10 Sep 15 2010 at 9:30 AM Rating: Good
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No there doesn't need to be a base skill up for defeating a mob. (And because I'm nitpicking that way, there's no auto attack, either).

Do you really think it makes sense that the only way a healer can accumulate rank points as fast as a DPS class is if he purposefully joins a group that will give him the maximum amount of wanding time? Seems rather counter-intuitive that, as a healer, you're rewarded more for piddling wand damage than actually supporting your group, and the problem will only grow worse as players start min/maxing more.
#11 Sep 15 2010 at 9:49 AM Rating: Decent
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Refresherize wrote:

Do you really think it makes sense that the only way a healer can accumulate rank points as fast as a DPS class is if he purposefully joins a group that will give him the maximum amount of wanding time? Seems rather counter-intuitive that, as a healer, you're rewarded more for piddling wand damage than actually supporting your group, and the problem will only grow worse as players start min/maxing more.


Wholeheartedly agree. The people I play with will play the game "correctly", and have proper group mechanics because we are veteran players that love MMO's. The way the system is however, for people trying to get a pick up group together, since the system rewards selfish behavior right now; things could get difficult.

I feel that it would be much better to have class XP work the same as physical XP, and reward on a per mob basis. Let everyone perform thier party roles, not what gets the most class XP.

Edited, Sep 15th 2010 11:49am by Verax606
#12 Sep 15 2010 at 10:09 AM Rating: Good
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Have any of you played healer in parties recently? I get maybe 19-21 thaumaturge point for spirit darts, and 160-190 for sacrifice. I spam the heck of my heal, self-heal if needed (hey, I lose HP healing you, I need to heal myself!) just to get the most XP out of the fights.

Sure, I'll toss spirit darts and use Damnation every once in a while, perhaps even throw a scourge in there, but my best source of XP on THM has been healing, by a long shot.
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#13 Sep 15 2010 at 10:24 AM Rating: Decent
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I kinda see where they are going with the rank skill ups. In most MMORPG's you run into the loser that joins a party to leech xp. He hits his auto attack and watches the football game. He ends up getting all the xp everyone else does but done 1/3 of the work. With this setup those people would get no xp. In my opinion you should be getting more skill up for the abilities you use. Provoke is a GLA ability so why wouldn't it have a better xp %. Obsess is a GLA ability and it don't give any type of skill xp.

I see in later levels healers wont be joining parties to heal. In the 5 MMORPG's I've played there has always been a time where healers couldn't do anything else. Bad party setup, bad tank, or the bad melee that wants to show off his new WS. Then there's just those times its a great party, but the mobs are just a bit tough. All these lead to a healer just tossing out cures. Final Fantasy is known for its long fights. Now the healer has to throw in rebuffs along with cures. Before you know it they are doing twice the work and getting a third of the xp.
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#14 Sep 15 2010 at 10:36 AM Rating: Good
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Maybe exp could be distributed with actions per minute in consideration then.

Edited, Sep 15th 2010 12:37pm by MaFi0s0
#15 Sep 15 2010 at 5:42 PM Rating: Decent
Sasorex wrote:
*This is not an "offensive" post. So please do not get defensive.*

Have you tried playing Gladiator in the beta? It is nigh impossible to actually tank with the way things are now. In several parties I have been the highest ranking and highest physical level member. Parties where I've been rank 15 and everyone else is sub rank 10 and I still couldn't not efficiently hold hate even when spamming Phalanx, Provoke, Taunt and tossing in some cures. If that's the way it's supposed to be then OK but I really don't think that even small "party mobs" are meant to be tanked by multiple tanks. So if the FFXIV construct is to need to have multiple tanks even on single party mobs then I guess they're doing a good job but if it's not and it's supposed to be more like FFXI then it needs some tweaking.


This is exactly what I'm getting at. I'm trying to point out to people a better solution, and they're clinging to what they're doing like they're multi-year veterans who have tried every imaginable combination of abilities and rotations and FCFS priority systems and all that. If what you're doing isn't working, at least try to be open minded about what other people are suggesting and give it a shot. Yes, I have played a Gladiator in the beta...it's my primary combat class. Yes, I have tanked for groups, and the only time I've had difficulty managing threat is when the damage classes go nuts right from the start and/or the healer decided that since nobody was in imminent danger of dying it was time to spam nukes. When people play smart, tanking so far hasn't been that much of an issue.

Consider this:

Screenshot


Take a look at the stamina cost for each of those abilities. Now consider the following:

1) We don't know how much enmity Provoke generates. The description doesn't indicate an amount, it simply says that it "Increases enmity".
2) Provoke generates zero TP.
3) Provoke counts as one attack for the purpose of determining whether or not you get any weapon skill increases.
3) Provoke costs almost double the stamina of a Light Slash/Light Stab.
4) Light Slash/Stab generates TP (350-600/hit based on the quick testing I just did) and enmity from damage.
5) The TP you generate from Light Slash/Stab, even from a single hit, is enough to use Phalanx at least once.
6) Phalanx increases enmity plus generates enmity from damage.
7) Both Light Slash/Stab and Phalanx each produce one chance to gain a weapon skill increase.

So if you can use Light Slash/Stab twice for every time you use Provoke, you've doubled your chances of a skillup. You've generated TP towards Phalanx and/or other weapon skills. Assuming you were getting the blocks you needed, you could potentially use Light Slash/Stab once and Phalanx twice for three chances at weapon skill ups, a buttload of enmity for less total stamina cost than Provoke and you'd still have Provoke off cooldown in case you needed it for an emergency.

Also worth noting while I was bombing around testing Provoke and Light Slash/Stab TP, I decided to let a marmot thump on me for a while for shield skillups. You know what I found?

Screenshot


You can get weapon skillups from taking hits.

So on one side of this discussion, people are saying tanks and healers are getting screwed for skillups. One the other side, you've got people giving examples of how tanks and healers, if played properly, are doing just fine.

On one side of this discussion, we've got people saying that when they tank the way they think they should, it doesn't work and SE needs to fix it. On the other side, you've got people like me saying stop thinking Provoke works the same in XIV as it does in XI and try something else instead.

You guys are running around with your Provoke and Taunt blowing 80% of your stamina on abilities that generate zero TP and can very quickly and easily leave you starved for stamina, and then you wonder why you can't hold threat. At the same time, you blow 80% of your stamina on two abilities netting only two total chances at weapon skillups and then wonder why you seem to get less than everyone else.

It's not XI guys. If you keep trying to play it like it is, you're going to miss out, and then you're going to be mad at SE for not fixing the "broken" systems that are only broken because you refuse to learn how to use them.


Edited, Sep 15th 2010 7:03pm by Aurelius
#16 Sep 15 2010 at 5:45 PM Rating: Decent
MaFi0s0 wrote:
Maybe exp could be distributed with actions per minute in consideration then.


I'm sure Marauders and Lancers might have something to say about that.
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