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to those who bash FFXIVFollow

#1 Sep 15 2010 at 1:51 AM Rating: Default
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I'm writing as more of an editorial out-reach to those who are bashing against the FFXIV beta.

I have been playing MMORPGs for a long time, 3years WoW, FFXI for 7. Before the burning crusade came out, and before the rise of the zilart came out. But, this isnt about wow..its about our dear SE.
i remember in FFXI, at the earliest stages, the entire game would crash if 2 people went through the same zone. as soon as SE found out that was the issue they did a server wide message letting everyone know that this was the issue, the reason why it happened, how they were going to fix it and when. they gave players 2 hours to call it quits and BAM. 4hour emergency update. after that, the issue was solved. In the future of course more issues arose but they jumped on it just the same. SE knows what they are doing and the issues that exist in FFXIV. Cut them some slack on the fact that SE has been making amazing games for YEARS. before a lot of people were actually old enough to read little pixel blocks that resembled words and realize the red pixel was a red mage and the blue one was a black mage.

SE is shuting down the beta for 2 days straight to iron out the big stuff. And when i heard that, i was so glad and relieved because i know that in those 2 days, problems will be fixed. doesnt mean they wont exist however, but the annoying stuff will be fixed.

I remember getting stuck under a bridge at the bottom of a lake on FFXI, with a GM standing next to me going "WTF?!" yet, 2seconds later i was back at my Mog House with a friendly "^^ glad i could assist you."

Have faith peeps. SE will come through, and show us why they are one of the top game producing companies. all games have issues that suck..lag always blows. You cant do anything in SW auction house at peak time..because to everyone else, you're tele hacking, yet to you, youre just lagging your way home.

I dont know about most of you, but some are upset and are recalling their pre-orders. Me? i'm even more exicted because i see so much potential in this game. we know there is a plan for expansion already. "Eorzea is one area, part of a continent of 3." c'mon. FFXI was fun, but then NIN came, and the game became amazing. The same will happen with FFXIV. SE is always fixing stuff, and to those of you who think they dont listen to people, they do. if enough people simply email them, or put in the beta dev notes what is crappy, they'll hop on it. I thought SAM in FFXI was uber buffed and it was unfair. 2weeks later, patch balanced them back out. They truly do care about the consumer, they have no money otherwise.


Let's try a number/bullet system
*EDIT*
1. SE rocks
2. There is always room for improvement
3. There will always be games with sh*tty aspects
4. If your lag is unbearable, check your hardware. More RAM is an easy fix, as is a new Gen-video card. ( best-buy sells decent 1gb cards for 70usd )
5. Have faith in JP...they're scary smart.
6. A game being different from WoW, isn't bad.
7. Remember that WoW has been up for years, they've already ironed out the big stuff.
8. Patience in JP...they're scary smart.
9. Patience in SE...they're just scary awesome.

P.S. I apologize to those of you that were offended by the word: "***." I personally am not offended by slurs used towards my behalf, and my objective was not to offend, but rather to substantiate a point. It appears that the thread has deviated from its original intent, which was to reassure the faith in SE and all constituents therein. The slur was nothing more than a generality used to sum the people that comprise SE, but I admit that stereotyping/generalizing people into a category may offend some of you out there. With that in mind, I also encourage you all to relax and progress away from your tender sensibilities and grow up. This is a forum after all and the topic of conversation was aimed very differently. Put the critical "I'm better than you because I don't like your word usage" away, and engage a topic of conversation the way it is meant to be engaged. This is an article and I presented a point of view. If you object the point of view, please present the information to counter the argument. As far as the whole "this is fanboy," I will agree that it may be considered fanboy as my point is to give credit to SE as an establishment, but in subjecting me to that label/generality, it is no better or worse than the generality I used in my argument.

Edited, Sep 16th 2010 3:20am by sugarspence
#2 Sep 15 2010 at 1:55 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Have faith in ****...they're scary smart.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish-American_princess

?
#3 Sep 15 2010 at 1:57 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
5. Have faith in ****...they're scary smart.

8. Patience in ****...they're scary smart.


Smiley: disappointed
Might want to change how you said that.
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#4 Sep 15 2010 at 2:02 AM Rating: Good
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Apparently after finishing reading that wikipedia article, that term is also some kind of an ethnic slur.

Who knew lol?

Anyway, in an attempt to redeem myself here is an equally ridiculous reply.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Journal_of_Applied_Physics


Edited, Sep 15th 2010 4:02am by Osanshouo
#5 Sep 15 2010 at 2:02 AM Rating: Decent
The OP was obviously talking about this: http://anon.inf.tu-dresden.de/index_en.html

edit:
; /
this thread is clearly just a blog post.
This thread serves as a way to begin a flamethread against half of this community. OP shouldn't stand for that, whatever 'side' they're on.



Edited, Sep 15th 2010 4:08am by DirectorCobbs
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#6 Sep 15 2010 at 2:55 AM Rating: Default
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Because This is an MMO in a long list of MMO's, I think players are getting tired of paying for a game that won't be finished. Not ready yet for production so to speak. And I say that because no MMO is ever 'ready' at launch. So going at it slow might be the best recourse. I hope it's a good game but I'm not sure I want to hand over my cash, as much as I can afford it, to test the product more. I've done that too many times already over the years.

Edited, Sep 15th 2010 4:57am by Automark
#7 Sep 15 2010 at 4:42 AM Rating: Default
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sugarspence wrote:

5. Have faith in ****...they're scary smart.


Just don't get stuck behind them on the highway amirite?
#8 Sep 15 2010 at 5:06 AM Rating: Good
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I don't like having 'faith' in anyone, let alone entire game companies. I prefer the 'whine & ***** until it gets sorted' method myself.
#9 Sep 15 2010 at 5:10 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
I don't like having 'faith' in anyone, let alone entire game companies. I prefer the 'whine & ***** until it gets sorted' method myself.


Take a lesson from this fine gentleman or gentlewoman here, folks. This is how things get done my friends.
#10 Sep 15 2010 at 5:12 AM Rating: Good
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sugarspence wrote:

8. Patience in ****...they're scary smart.
9. Patience in SE...they're just scary awesome.


Congratulations - you're an instant tool. Seriously, wtf man...

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#11 Sep 15 2010 at 6:06 AM Rating: Decent
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Vackashken wrote:
sugarspence wrote:

8. Patience in ****...they're scary smart.
9. Patience in SE...they're just scary awesome.


Congratulations - you're an instant tool. Seriously, wtf man...



This.

Oh, and don't forget:

Quote:
1. SE rocks


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#12 Sep 15 2010 at 6:36 AM Rating: Decent
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Pretty sure he meant "****" as an abbreviation >_>

It really doesn't sound that offensive anyway, I imagine the Japanese respond to the word like I would respond to someone calling me "Cracker", would chuckle a bit, but overall not care.

Either way, on these forums, you should really remember the correct spelling or get flamed into oblivion.

-MS
#13 Sep 15 2010 at 6:52 AM Rating: Good
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I really don't think that's the reason. More so it's the fact that it seems he'd let SE bend him over if they cared to.

That's fine.

I, on the other hand, will continue to have my own constructive ideas and opinions about the game, and will continue to voice them as I see fit. Why? I find that as the customer of a product, I should have that priviledge to voice any such opinion in hopes that SE might find it useful and somehow use it to make the product better.
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#14 Sep 15 2010 at 7:07 AM Rating: Good
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I'm great with people voicing opinions about what they don't like. But alot of people seem to be talking about cancelling their preorders over problems that don't seem that big of a deal to me. I thought the beta was pretty fun, and I'm really excited about the game. Sure it isn't perfect, nor did I expect it to be. If they don't fix some things and show improvement in a few months, I might get frustrated. But I definitely haven't seen anything to make we want to ditch the game already.
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#15 Sep 15 2010 at 7:07 AM Rating: Default
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Someone must have beat you d bags over the head with a stupid stick or something. It was obvious he wasn't intending to be insulting or derogatory towards anyone. And if anyone did get offended in the context he used, well, I can fix alot of things, just not that much stupid at once.
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#16 Sep 15 2010 at 7:09 AM Rating: Good
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This thread is just full of fail, why is it still alive.
#17 Sep 15 2010 at 7:13 AM Rating: Decent
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Someone must have beat you d bags over the head with a stupid stick or something. It was obvious he wasn't intending to be insulting or derogatory towards anyone. And if anyone did get offended in the context he used, well, I can fix alot of things, just not that much stupid at once.


Intended or not, he deserves to know the word he used is derogatory. And living here in Japan, I have friends who would possibly be offended.
#18 Sep 15 2010 at 7:17 AM Rating: Decent
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I completely agree that personally I wouldn't not buy the game based on what I've seen. I'm actually pretty excited about it.

Don't misunderstand my last post, it wasn't really directed at anyone. Just seems that overall, when someone makes a post containing ANYTHING negative about the game, it becomes a huge issue with some people blindly backing SE as if they **** gold bricks.

You can't really deny the game has some problems. I don't see the need to consistantly argue over some issue that clearly exists in the game. Everyone is entitled to voice their findings.
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#19 Sep 15 2010 at 7:17 AM Rating: Decent
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The phrase fighting fire with fire springs to mind...
#20 Sep 15 2010 at 7:19 AM Rating: Decent
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MaFi0s0 wrote:
This thread is just full of fail, why is it still alive.


Seriously.

Pagansaint wrote:
Someone must have beat you d bags over the head with a stupid stick or something. It was obvious he wasn't intending to be insulting or derogatory towards anyone. And if anyone did get offended in the context he used, well, I can fix alot of things, just not that much stupid at once.


Oh and as for being offending, I don't need to be offended at how stupid the post is regardless of potential racial slurs or not. Inferring that the game will be awesome automatically because its made by Japanese/SE is stupid. Sorry, thats not even close to the case in this bloated whale struggling to get off the beach it swam itself on. SE has a lot of work to do - regardless of their "auto-win" race.

If I was offended by anything it was the sheer stupidity of the post even being drafted in the first place, its content, and its myriad of misnomers that are littered in it.

p.s.

Just for the sake of being as juvenile as you: Your mom is a d-bag.

I'M HILARIOUS LIKE YOU!

You clown...



Edited, Sep 15th 2010 9:20am by Vackashken

Edited, Sep 15th 2010 9:20am by Vackashken
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#21 Sep 15 2010 at 7:22 AM Rating: Decent
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Alabazman wrote:
I completely agree that personally I wouldn't not buy the game based on what I've seen. I'm actually pretty excited about it.

Don't misunderstand my last post, it wasn't really directed at anyone. Just seems that overall, when someone makes a post containing ANYTHING negative about the game, it becomes a huge issue with some people blindly backing SE as if they sh*t gold bricks.

You can't really deny the game has some problems. I don't see the need to consistantly argue over some issue that clearly exists in the game. Everyone is entitled to voice their findings.


Much like if someone says anything positive or the sorts they get called a tool/fanboi/"take any **** SE gives" etc mostly because people want to believe so hard that FFXIV is a failure of a game because of the problems (that obviously would get fixed regardless because beta versions of video games have obvious issues that tend to get corrected) that anything positive just "can't be".

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#22 Sep 15 2010 at 7:45 AM Rating: Default
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ok, the whole "***" thing, is from world @#%^ing war 2. 70 years ago? hello? most of the people who would even find that remotely offensive are dead, or nearly dead. either way, i can guarantee they're not playing ffxi(v).

also, i'd like point out that there are several positive threads about how cool this game is, etc., etc., without a single derogatory post referring to someone as a fan boy. ****, there's a few where some of us critics didn't even bother to crash your little circle jerk. but o lawd, don't let a thread get started criticizing this game in any way without a horde of trolls invading the thread with accusations of wowtardism and ezmoders.

Edited, Sep 15th 2010 9:45am by measureups
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#23 Sep 15 2010 at 8:02 AM Rating: Good
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measureups wrote:
ok, the whole "***" thing, is from world @#%^ing war 2. 70 years ago? hello? most of the people who would even find that remotely offensive are dead, or nearly dead. either way, i can guarantee they're not playing ffxi(v)


The whole "N-word" thing started in 1786, but really took on a more harsh, offensive form shortly after the american civil #$@#$ing war. 145 years ago? Hello? Most of the people who would remember that and find it remotely offensive are... The offspring of, related to, friends of, people who stood up for, and people who cared about all of those people who may have been offended. For respect out of them, their fights, their deaths, and their humanity, we frown upon the use of words like "***" and "n-word", etc.

Sorry if this post does offend anyone, but seems like MeasureUps needed a little wake-up call, and making a reference to a word a little closer to home might do just that..
#24 Sep 15 2010 at 8:11 AM Rating: Decent
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ok, the whole "***" thing, is from world @#%^ing war 2. 70 years ago? hello? most of the people who would even find that remotely offensive are dead, or nearly dead. either way, i can guarantee they're not playing ffxi(v).


Not true. I am a living example of the contrary.
#25 Sep 15 2010 at 8:12 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Someone must have beat you d bags over the head with a stupid stick or something. It was obvious he wasn't intending to be insulting or derogatory towards anyone. And if anyone did get offended in the context he used, well, I can fix alot of things, just not that much stupid at once.

You know, I was just joking with my posts, it's what I do.

Using the word *** is fail regardless of his intentions.
If he didn't know it could be offensive that makes it even more fail than if he did.

Quote:
Pretty sure he meant "****" as an abbreviation >_>

It really doesn't sound that offensive anyway, I imagine the Japanese respond to the word like I would respond to someone calling me "Cracker", would chuckle a bit, but overall not care.

Really, because to many Japanese Americans the word *** is reminiscent or WW2 and the internment camps?
Whether a word is offensive or not is completely subjective to the intent of the person saying it.

That being said I didn't him seriously, and if I did I probably would have laughed.
Would mean he's either a troll or someone who will go through life angry at everything.

Edited, Sep 15th 2010 10:30am by Osanshouo
#26 Sep 15 2010 at 8:22 AM Rating: Good
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ghosthacked wrote:
I don't like having 'faith' in anyone, let alone entire game companies. I prefer the 'whine & ***** until it gets sorted' method myself.


I concur.
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#27 Sep 15 2010 at 8:33 AM Rating: Good
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I concur. Have faith in the good will of a profit-driven multinational company, and...

...


No wait. That's unthinkable. Nobody would be that naive.
#28 Sep 15 2010 at 9:09 AM Rating: Decent
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NecoSino wrote:
measureups wrote:
ok, the whole "***" thing, is from world @#%^ing war 2. 70 years ago? hello? most of the people who would even find that remotely offensive are dead, or nearly dead. either way, i can guarantee they're not playing ffxi(v)


The whole "N-word" thing started in 1786, but really took on a more harsh, offensive form shortly after the american civil #$@#$ing war. 145 years ago? Hello? Most of the people who would remember that and find it remotely offensive are... The offspring of, related to, friends of, people who stood up for, and people who cared about all of those people who may have been offended. For respect out of them, their fights, their deaths, and their humanity, we frown upon the use of words like "***" and "n-word", etc.

Sorry if this post does offend anyone, but seems like MeasureUps needed a little wake-up call, and making a reference to a word a little closer to home might do just that..


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uqwj--wGEgY
#29 Sep 15 2010 at 9:18 AM Rating: Excellent
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This post is suppose to make FFXIV look better? Holy cow, man, shut up. You're "scary" stupid.

First, a bulleted list with "SE rocks" isn't an argument. Its just blind fanboyism. You may have found more support for this statement back in the SNES and early PS1 days when everything the company (Squaresoft) put their name on was gold. Those days are long gone, and mediocre SE titles are the norm, not the exception.

Your other argument is that the game should be good because "Japanese are smart". One, that's a form of racism, even though I know you don't think it is. Calling one race more intelligent is implying other races are further down on the intelligence chain. If you still think good games are only developed by Japanese companies you have been gone for the last decade or so.

Finally, you claim you've played FFXI for seven years and still don't realize that "***" is considered a racist word. To JP, this is their N-word, but you just kept spouting it off. Again, I'm guessing you didn't realize this, but if you don't know this, please don't claim to be an expert on the company or how intelligent their race is.

Oh and if all your points weren't stupid, your writing skill sucks. There was no flow in any of that nonsense you wrote out, just a bunch of random thoughts that I'm sure made sense in your mind, but in reality you were just stuttering half thoughts and gibbirish.

Edited, Sep 15th 2010 11:25am by Vawn43
#30 Sep 15 2010 at 9:37 AM Rating: Decent
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NecoSino wrote:
measureups wrote:
ok, the whole "***" thing, is from world @#%^ing war 2. 70 years ago? hello? most of the people who would even find that remotely offensive are dead, or nearly dead. either way, i can guarantee they're not playing ffxi(v)


The whole "N-word" thing started in 1786, but really took on a more harsh, offensive form shortly after the american civil #$@#$ing war. 145 years ago? Hello? Most of the people who would remember that and find it remotely offensive are... The offspring of, related to, friends of, people who stood up for, and people who cared about all of those people who may have been offended. For respect out of them, their fights, their deaths, and their humanity, we frown upon the use of words like "***" and "n-word", etc.

Sorry if this post does offend anyone, but seems like MeasureUps needed a little wake-up call, and making a reference to a word a little closer to home might do just that..


it's still very contextual. i'm not going to provide examples due to the fact it seems folks like to get their epeens in a knot. not everything should be taken out of context to fluff peoples obsessive need to get offended and **** bruised.

**** political correctness, dude wasn't being racist or offensive in his post so why the **** do you all have your panties in a twist?
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#31 Sep 15 2010 at 10:23 AM Rating: Decent
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I remember getting stuck under a bridge at the bottom of a lake on FFXI, with a GM standing next to me going "WTF?!" yet, 2seconds later i was back at my Mog House with a friendly "^^ glad i could assist you."


I dont want to bash WoW but i just have to add my experience to this. When i played ffxi at release i remember getting stuck under a bridge also (in windurst i think it was) and a gm helped me only moments after i called. Now WoW on the other hand i have had different issues where i waited for 1-2 hours to even hear from a gm.

Both good games, but it should be noted that SE (though they dont show it) does listen and help their customers.
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#32 Sep 15 2010 at 10:41 AM Rating: Good
Alabazman wrote:
I find that as the customer of a product, I should have that priviledge to voice any such opinion in hopes that SE might find it useful and somehow use it to make the product better.

This

edit: to the poster above me, we're speaking the SE as the game developer, not the in-game admins they hire. two different things

Edited, Sep 15th 2010 12:42pm by DirectorCobbs
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#33 Sep 15 2010 at 10:49 AM Rating: Good
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Wow, there is a lot of bad stuff in this thread. Still, I don't think that folks should come down on the OP *too* hard. Yes, "***" is widely considered a derogatory term, but it is also an abbreviation for the word Japanese. The OP clearly doesn't know many Japanese folks, so it *is* possible he just didn't realize he was saying something that might be offensive. We shouldn't use things like "Cracker" and "N-word" as valid comparision, not because they aren't also derogatory terms, but because neither is an abbreviation for Caucasion or African. I can accept that the OP just needs to be educated in this instance.

Words make people so angry! It's depressing.

Anywho, SE has a long way to go before they can reclaim the title "rocks". Your list really is just raging fanboyism. There is no need to bring WoW into this. It's different from Wow, yes. However, it's different in all the bad ways as well as the good ways. The good ways are storyline, style, and atmosphere. The bad ways are UI, accessibility, and response time.

I do think that the actual release will look different from what we are seing in open beta, but I believe that they should open a dialogue with us instead of this tight-liped approach. It just makes us crazy.

Edited, Sep 15th 2010 12:50pm by Torrence
#34 Sep 15 2010 at 10:55 AM Rating: Decent
^ virtual rate-up
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#35 Sep 15 2010 at 11:10 AM Rating: Good
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MoonShooter wrote:
Pretty sure he meant "****" as an abbreviation >_>

It really doesn't sound that offensive anyway, I imagine the Japanese respond to the word like I would respond to someone calling me "Cracker", would chuckle a bit, but overall not care.


It's probably best to avoid any "abbreviation" that was also a widely-used ethnic slur. Many Japanese people were forcefully removed from their homes, their lives utterly uprooted, and locked away in interment camps to the tune of "***." Propaganda of the time told Americans to distrust the ***, and to kill the ***.

Not so with "cracker."

This isn't a slur from a thousand years ago; this isn't a slur whose meaning has changed, like scalawag; this is a slur that was used on people's parents when they were young, on people's grandparents, and was still in wide use (among racists, of course) on into the '60s.

Not so with "cracker."

I do, however, apologise for the derail.

Edited, Sep 15th 2010 1:11pm by KaneKitty
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#36 Sep 15 2010 at 11:15 AM Rating: Decent
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Automark wrote:
Because This is an MMO in a long list of MMO's, I think players are getting tired of paying for a game that won't be finished. Not ready yet for production so to speak. And I say that because no MMO is ever 'ready' at launch. So going at it slow might be the best recourse. I hope it's a good game but I'm not sure I want to hand over my cash, as much as I can afford it, to test the product more. I've done that too many times already over the years.

Edited, Sep 15th 2010 4:57am by Automark


How can you assume you will be testing at launch?
Everyone keeps saying SE will not implement obviously needed changes to big complaints, but they proved that untrue at the Eorzea Prelive event. See ZAM coverage - http://ffxiv.zam.com/story.html?story=23252

UI/Menu streamlining was never going to be changed nor did SE plan on adjusting it according to a billion posts.
They stated they are by release, and will continue to tweak it as they get more feedback.

Hardware mouse, also stated ad nauseum that SE has no plan to implement it.
They stated they will have hardware mouse support on release day.

Guildleve Issuing will also be adjusted to accomodate the initial influx of low level, solo heavy players at launch.

Theres's more, almost all the adjustments and/or changes are in direct relation with the Beta players suggestions.
I'm not a fanboy, I complain about SE fails more than I probably should and many of my posts will verify that. That being said, I was sick of all the supposition placed forward as "fact" already, but now that it's in black and white from the Devs mouth, people are still complaining we are just going to be subscribing to an unpolished Beta?
Of course it's going to have a few bugs here and there, all games do at launch, I have yet to play a perfect release.
But we aren't getting this crap pile of unfinished game that so many have been swearing we will get.
Here's the link again. Read it, it's way more factual and relavent than the 25000 posts about the sorting won't be fixed, and UI is never going to change that are cluttering this forum atm.

ZAM review of the Eorzea Prelive event:
http://ffxiv.zam.com/story.html?story=23252

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#37 Sep 15 2010 at 12:57 PM Rating: Decent
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I't's probably best to avoid any "abbreviation" that was also a widely-used ethnic slur. Many Japanese people were forcefully removed from their homes, their lives utterly uprooted, and locked away in interment camps to the tune of "***." Propaganda of the time told Americans to distrust the ***, and to kill the ***.

Not so with "cracker."

This isn't a slur from a thousand years ago; this isn't a slur whose meaning has changed, like scalawag; this is a slur that was used on people's parents when they were young, on people's grandparents, and was still in wide use (among racists, of course) on into the '60s.

Not so with "cracker."


Its a little Ironic how no one on this forum gets up in arms when someone says "Jew", but once someone lets the J word slip its a L4D panic event. Crazy, huh?
#38 Sep 15 2010 at 2:17 PM Rating: Good
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What a pile of gonads. Your bullet points are beyond laughable.

So a GM once warped you when you were stuck, glad to hear it.

Here's a few things I remember about SE;

Refusing to allow windowed play for years, then taking 9 months to develop a windower that wasn't as good as the 3rd party one.

Being incredibly slow to react to a wave of mass hackings, making it extremely difficult for players to retrieve their accounts, and making them wait for months.

Making said players then lodge a second complaint to get their gear back and charging them to transfer back to their home servers.

Banning many of these players for RMT activity whilst they were hacked.

Banning people for changing their credit card details, or charging back SE billing system overcharges.

Banning people automatically in a crack down on RMT gardeners without checking whether they were banning legit players too.

Farming out their customer service department so the reps have no idea what they are talking about and very little powers to rectify anything not on the script.



I'm not even going to bother addressing the shortcomings of IV, plenty of others have done that on this forum, but lets all give thanks that we have such an awesome Japanese company catering to our every whim.









#39 Sep 15 2010 at 6:19 PM Rating: Good
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3,530 posts
I'm sorry that I have to go back to this, but I feel that I must address a comment.

MoonShooter wrote:
Quote:
I't's probably best to avoid any "abbreviation" that was also a widely-used ethnic slur. Many Japanese people were forcefully removed from their homes, their lives utterly uprooted, and locked away in interment camps to the tune of "***." Propaganda of the time told Americans to distrust the ***, and to kill the ***.

Not so with "cracker."

This isn't a slur from a thousand years ago; this isn't a slur whose meaning has changed, like scalawag; this is a slur that was used on people's parents when they were young, on people's grandparents, and was still in wide use (among racists, of course) on into the '60s.

Not so with "cracker."


Its a little Ironic how no one on this forum gets up in arms when someone says "Jew", but once someone lets the J word slip its a L4D panic event. Crazy, huh?


That may be due to the fact that that the word "Jew" can be used despairingly, but ofttimes is not. Jew traces its origins (probably) back to the Old French ieue (jiue?), which traces its origins back much farther simply to Judah / Yudah / follower of Judah. "Jew" is used disparagingly, it seems, when used as a verb or with a lowercase "J," but it seems to be mostly a matter of inflection more than anything else: "I am happy with the United States' decision to support the Jews in Isreal" vs. "Hey, Rick, get a load a' all them jews accross the street!"

Easton's 1897 Bible Dictionary does not define Jew as an offensive word; neither Collins English Dictionary (1998-2007) nor the Random House dictionary mentions it, either. ***, on the other hand, has but one definition, namely as "Slang: Disparaging and Offensive."

Furthermore, it is not politically incorrect to say that "We must help the Jews" in the way that it is to say "We must help the ****." You may find that Jew is offensive for one reason or another, but there really is no evidence to support that claim in the same way there is mountains of it -- especially in recent history -- for the term ***. The word Jew, I'll agree, can seem to sit upon a cusp in some ways, but again, it really is only offensive when the person saying it makes it abundantly clear that they mean it that way. Thus, it is not ironic, it is a matter of fact that the term Jew is in wide use today in many English-speaking countries, and more often than not, as a categorical noun as opposed to a slur; ***, on the other hand, is generally only used in two contexts: first, by old racists, and second, during long-winded defences for stubborn, ignorant, or insensitive mistakes.




Edited, Sep 15th 2010 8:25pm by KaneKitty
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"... he called to himself a wizard, named Gallery, hoping by this means to escape the paying of the fifteen hundred crowns..." (Machen 15)

"Thus opium is pleasing... on account of the agreeable delirium it produces." (Burke para.6)

"I could only read so much for this paper and the syphilis poem had to go."
#40 Sep 15 2010 at 6:57 PM Rating: Decent
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11,539 posts
The funniest part of people who unwittingly offend other people is the people that defend them with "Well he didn't know it was offensive, so it's fine!"

1) Yes, "***" is an offensive term to some people.

2) "Offensive" is determined by person HEARING the word, not the person SAYING it. Yes, that's horribly unfair, but point blank: telling someone "It wasn't meant in an offensive way" does not magically make the word unoffensive. If I am running with a knife, accidentally run into you and stab you, and I say "Oh, I'm sorry. I didn't mean to stab you", does that make you un-stabbed? Do you suddenly stop gushing blood because it wasn't intentional? No, you don't. The damage is done.
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#41 Sep 15 2010 at 7:23 PM Rating: Good
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3,530 posts
Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
The funniest part of people who unwittingly offend other people is the people that defend them with "Well he didn't know it was offensive, so it's fine!"


Yes -- and that is quite near where I eventually wanted to arrive.

It is not so much that I have firm convictions that someone who says, "Those **** never party with me" or, "Those **** make a good game" is a staunch racist, it is, as you highlighted in parts of your post, the fact that such individuals seem to think that they should be able to continue using what is, by definition, a racial slur, simply because they say "I don't mean it disparagingly."

Every time I have ever been privy to a situation in which someone uses a term like ***, or ***, or the like, I am amazed not by the individual's desire to defend themselves, but, rather, to defend the word in question!

In short, it usually solves the problem to say, "Whoops, I didn't mean to seem racist, I'll use the term 'Japanese person,' or 'JP,' or 'JPN.' :P"; but it only sparks debate to make unsubstantiated claims on the legitimacy of calling some guy a ***.

If you didn't mean to seem like a jerk, simply apologise and move on -- this goes for sensitive, race-related terms, for issues of video game debate, and for everything in between -- I think that most reasonable people will be receptive to your honesty, pleased with your decision to get along with others, and impressed with your ability to learn new information and integrate it into your vocabulary and word usage.
____________________________
"... he called to himself a wizard, named Gallery, hoping by this means to escape the paying of the fifteen hundred crowns..." (Machen 15)

"Thus opium is pleasing... on account of the agreeable delirium it produces." (Burke para.6)

"I could only read so much for this paper and the syphilis poem had to go."
#42 Sep 15 2010 at 7:32 PM Rating: Excellent
***
2,120 posts
I'm a big fan of George Carlin and his opinions on the matter. Words are just words and not bad themselves, only how you use them is bad. However I know better than to expect everyone to agree with me on that. Sometimes it's ok to act first and apologize later, in this case it's better to avoid it from the start. If you're not sure, don't...

Edited, Sep 15th 2010 9:34pm by TwistedOwl
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#43 Sep 15 2010 at 7:51 PM Rating: Good
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Regardless if the word "***" was used or not, the OP is still one of the most ignorant, scatterbrained and most of all pointless threads I have seen in a long time.
#44 Sep 16 2010 at 12:54 PM Rating: Good
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11,539 posts
TwistedOwl wrote:
I'm a big fan of George Carlin and his opinions on the matter. Words are just words and not bad themselves, only how you use them is bad. However I know better than to expect everyone to agree with me on that. Sometimes it's ok to act first and apologize later, in this case it's better to avoid it from the start. If you're not sure, don't...

Edited, Sep 15th 2010 9:34pm by TwistedOwl


There are two rather conflicting viewpoints, and both are right in their own way.

On one hand, like I said, the offensiveness of words is determined by the person who hears/reads them, not the person who says them. Let's use the word... Gleeblesplorch.

Now if I say to my friend "Dude, stop being such a gleeblesplorch!" and he laughs and I laugh, then there is no offense.

However if I say the same thing to someone else, and they ARE offended, then offense is done, regardless of intent.

To this I say the solution is to try and be more respective of other people's views and apologize when you put your foot in your mouth, rather than trying to defend why a word shouldn't be offensive simply because YOU didn't think it was.

On the other hand, people are too **** sensitive. I take each and every person on their own merits regardless of race, gender, sexual orientation, religion, political preference, or anything else.

Having said that, here are now some possibly offensive jokes: (Spoilered, in case you don't want to read them)

Anti-female: Why should you never buy a woman a watch for a present? Because there's already a clock on the stove.
Anti-male: God says to Adam and Eve, "I have two gifts to give and you may each have one. The first is the ability to urinate while standing-" Adam cuts him off, "OOH OOH I WANT THAT ONE!" and so it is done. He runs off to test his new gift and Eve asks God "So what do I get?" "Brains."
Anti-Polish: How did Germany invade Poland so quickly? They marched in backwards and told them they were leaving.
Anti-hispanic: Why does the USS Enterprise has had Klingons, Romulans, but no Mexicans? They don't work in the future either.
Anti-Jewish: What's the difference between Jews and Pizza? Pizza doesn't scream when you put it in the oven.
Anti-***: How do you fit four men on one bar stool? Turn it upside down.

Does any of this make me racist? Not really, although I'm sure some might argue that it does and that they were offended. The second point I want to make is that words only offend you if you let them. Stop being so **** uptight and demanding everything be totally politically correct.

Take, for example, Issac Hayes. As Matt Stone and Trey Parker put it, he had NO PROBLEM collecting a paycheck when South Park mocked Christians, Jews, Muslims, Atheists... but it was one single episode about Scientology that lead him to quit the show. Either all of it is okay or none of it is.

I consider myself to be a Christian, but that doesn't make me above laughing at anti Christian jokes. Here:

Anti-Christian: Jesus walks into an inn. He hands the innkeeper a couple nails and says "Can you put me up for the night?"

Sacrilegious? Maybe. But it's funny. Grow a sense of humor and stop getting offended at everything. Seems like people LOOK for reasons to be offended nowadays. Ever have someone ask if something makes them look fat? You know **** well the answer is no without even looking, even if they're knocking lamps off the tables. But why? Why are we so afraid of offending people, so aware that people will get offended, that we feel the need to walk on eggshells?

So in summary:

1) Stop trying to offend people intentionally.
2) Stop getting offended by every ******* thing.

Thank you, and God bless.
____________________________
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Tyapex: 393 posts of utter crap...
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