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This game SHOULD be packaged with a gampadFollow

#1 Sep 15 2010 at 11:50 AM Rating: Good
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I've actually never played a computer game with a gamepad before - I played FFXI with just a keyboard and that worked fine but it doesn't really work as well with FFXIV - at least in beta - I was finding I needed the mouse - which was annoying because (well we all know why)...

So I heard a lot of people talking about how much better the experience is with a gamepad - so I decided to get one and try it out.

Of course there was a little snafu when the idiots at the gaming store sold me the wrong XBox controller (the wireless - EVEN WHEN PLUGGED IN - WILL NOT WORK) - but eventually I managed to get a working controller and hook it up and map it...

well - after the initial learning curve (which was short) I have to say that this game is INFINITELY better/smoother with a gamepad. The menus are less laggy and easier to navigate - things like emotes are way easier to use, and I find that in battle my character responds faster and is more maneuverable (way easier to get behind the enemy and stabby stab stab).

Honestly - if SE wanted to save themselves a lot of complaints and grief they would have put a gamepad in the CE so that people at least KNEW that they did in fact design the game with a gamepad in mind - because it is painfully obvious they did.

So while I am glad they are working on optimizing the game for mouse and keyboard players I have to strongly urge people who are finding the UI particularly annoying to look into making the investment in a game pad. It DOES make a huge difference. It is just so much more immeasurably comfortable to use and it feels more intuitive.

You can also map things however you want to - which is another bonus.
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#2 Sep 15 2010 at 11:58 AM Rating: Excellent
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But then they wouldn't be able to charge $50 for the "FFXIV controler" which looks like a ps2 controller with a FF sticker on it.

I haven't tried it out yet, but I'm probably going to be picking up a wired 360 controller based on what I've heard people saying. I've just heard that tab targeting is pretty weak.
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#3 Sep 15 2010 at 11:58 AM Rating: Good
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Glad you like it Olorinus!

I have to second this. It's worth at least trying out once so you know for sure what you prefer.
#4 Sep 15 2010 at 12:00 PM Rating: Good
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Then we could listen to people ***** about the ****** controller that SE put in the CE and bumped the price up because of it.
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#5 Sep 15 2010 at 12:00 PM Rating: Excellent
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Im sold... my bro in law told me the same but he is pretty much a 360 junky.

I convinced him to play beta once it was open just to test it out, at first he was against it until he hooked up his control and now he is having a blast. He encouraged me to use the stick but I still have XI pumping in my veins so I was intent on using the keyboard and mouse and denying the controller a even a chance.

But I think I actually will look into the wired controller... makes me feel bad cause I have 3 360 wireless controllers at the house though :-/
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#6 Sep 15 2010 at 12:00 PM Rating: Decent
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I agree 100%.

Most PC users get themselves in a tizzy because for 99% of the games the best tool for the job is a keyboard and mouse. They are stuck thinking, computer = key board and mouse.

I've heard people say, "Why should I use a "non-standard" tool to play the game." Which completely baffles me as the computer is meant to be a device purposefully designed for all types of expansion and input devices.

Here is something I responded to on some other forums:

Quote:
Quote:
Honest question here, how is the controller any better? I played FFXI for 6 years with the keyboard, and there too people said the controller was better, but i never understood why. Using the keyboard by itself allows you to chat and control your actions, without changing from one device to another.


FFXI was better with KB and Mouse. The input was much faster. However in the current form there are lots of missing KB shortcuts, some keys still can't be rebound, the input is very laggy compared to controller.

But beyond that the UI was designed for a controller. The input defaults to where your going to click so instead of moving the cursor you just hit the confirm button again.

Quote:
With the controller, if you want to chat with someone, you need to set it down and grab the keyboard! How is that "better"?


It's not very difficult to set the controller down when you want to type things out. Once you start typing you loose control of any movement controls on the keyboard. With controller you can type with one hand and still move with the thumbsticks.

Quote:
So, unless you exclusively use vent/teamspeak for communicating, I really don't see how a controller would be usable.


I think its just something you'll need to try out for yourself. It's really not all the much trouble to go from controller to keyboard for typing. But like I mentioned now instead of canceling your message to correct your direction you can leave your message, tap the thumb stick to correct, then continue typing. (sometimes if your quick about hitting the controller its almost like you never stopped typing)



Edited, Sep 15th 2010 1:03pm by windexy
#7 Sep 15 2010 at 12:05 PM Rating: Excellent
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Spoke with a friend of mine and uses this.... (confirmed to work on FFXIV)

Gonna pick it up on the way home... for all the folks who have xbox wireless controllers and dont wanna buy a wired controller for $30-$40

http://www.walmart.com/ip/Microsoft-Wireless-Gaming-Receiver-Xbox-360-Xbox-360/5156486
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#8 Sep 15 2010 at 12:06 PM Rating: Good
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I actually think that with hardware mouse enabled, keyboard/mouse is the best control scheme. It's a lot more efficient in battle.

Two reasons for that: one is the hotbar. On the gamepad, you have to scroll left and right through each ability before selecting it, which is very slow.

Targeting is the other. Targeting without the (hardware) mouse is awful right now. It prioritizes targeting you over anything else for some reason, and it often ignores enemies right in front of you. And even assuming that works, as I recall the process of switching between targets on a gamepad involves 1) cancelling out of the hotbar menu, 2) scrolling through targets to find the one you want, 3) pressing select once to lock on, 4) pressing select again to bring up the hotbar and 5) selecting an attack and pressing select again to use it.

With keyboard/mouse this process involves 1) clicking on the new target, and 2) pressing the keyboard number of the attack you want to use. The hotbar stays open through all of this.

It's suicide to use the gamepad when fighting groups of enemies.

However, the gamepad is the better choice when playing a spellcaster, because to cast a spell you just have to hit select twice quickly. On keyboard you have to push the spell's number in the hotbar then hit enter to activate it, which is unintuitive. On mouse you have to click the spell and then move over to the target and click that.

All of the control schemes need a lot of work.
#9 Sep 15 2010 at 12:08 PM Rating: Decent
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Cherbr wrote:
Then we could listen to people ***** about the sh*tty controller that SE put in the CE and bumped the price up because of it.


oh yeah - good point.
Smiley: lol
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lolgaxe wrote:
When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#10 Sep 15 2010 at 12:09 PM Rating: Excellent
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I don't know why, but I refuse to use a controller on a computer except when playing roms. This goes double for an MMORPG, since having to set my controller down to talk to people, then pick my controller back up is more work than my lazy *** should have to do.

It's nice that they want to support controllers, I see nothing wrong with that at all for people who prefer to play that way, but the notion that a keyboard and mouse, the two most common input peripherals for nearly every computer in the last 15 years, would be inferior to a gamepad on a console is absurd.

Imagine the rage if you bought a game for your 360/PS3/Wii and found out that a keyboard and mouse work better than the controller.

Like I said, nothing against people who prefer to use controllers, but keyboard support should be AT LEAST as good as controller support. I reinstalled FFXI last week ($13 shoes, for one, and I wanted to show Vana'diel to my future brother in law who wants to play XIV but has never seen XI) and noticed that FFXI's keyboard support is better than FFXIV's keyboard support. How is this even remotely logical that FFXIV is inferior to FFXI in terms of keyboard controls and support? It makes no sense to me.

Bonus derail troll comment: Aforementioned future brother in law has been playing WoW since BC and has never seen FFXI except in screenshots. He said he was surprised how much better XI looked compared to WoW.

He also said that if FFXIV flops, he wants to play XI. Smiley: lol

But anyway, yeah... controller support is great, but I still prefer not to use a gamepad/joystick on PC with very few exceptions (roms, flight sims, mechwarrior, etc). To each their own though.
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#11 Sep 15 2010 at 12:12 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Targeting is the other. Targeting without the (hardware) mouse is awful right now. It prioritizes targeting you over anything else for some reason, and it often ignores enemies right in front of you.


hat right on the controller is like tab, hat left is shift tab, up and down works the same but for party members. Pressing the confirm button selects the object directly in front of you.

Quote:
And even assuming that works, as I recall the process of switching between targets on a gamepad involves 1) cancelling out of the hotbar menu, 2) scrolling through targets to find the one you want, 3) pressing select once to lock on, 4) pressing select again to bring up the hotbar and 5) selecting an attack and pressing select again to use it.


You have to do the same thing with the keyboard. (If you lock on)

Quote:
Imagine the rage if you bought a game for your 360/PS3/Wii and found out that a keyboard and mouse work better than the controller.


Uh... so ALL first person shooters?

Edited, Sep 15th 2010 1:13pm by windexy

Edited, Sep 15th 2010 1:15pm by windexy
#12 Sep 15 2010 at 12:14 PM Rating: Good
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I started off going m/kb just because I wanted to see how SE set up m/kb controls after their terrible FFXI attempt. Worked okay. I gave the controller a shot for a little while, but I started getting very annoyed with the fast paced combat and having to either quickly scroll through abilities on the action bar or move my hand back and forth frequently. In FFXI, I used keyboard + controller, and it worked well because the combat was slow and I wasn't using abilities every second. This game is different. I've gone back to m/kb and am looking forwards to their UI and mouse improvements.
#13 Sep 15 2010 at 12:15 PM Rating: Excellent
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Borkachev wrote:
I actually think that with hardware mouse enabled, keyboard/mouse is the best control scheme. It's a lot more efficient in battle.

Two reasons for that: one is the hotbar. On the gamepad, you have to scroll left and right through each ability before selecting it, which is very slow.


Yeah there are issues with this for sure - especially since I am still clumsy and sometimes push down a bit and move to the next tier. It is hard to tell though because in other ways the gamepad is more efficient though - and once I get better with it I am not sure it will feel slower - I am also having less problem with selecting the ability and then having it not go off because I hit it too soon.

I think ultimately once I get macros for some abilities set up the combo of macros and selecting from the hotbar will be just as fast as keyboard input - especially once I have more than one bar of abilities, since it seems like it will actually be more intuitive to switch between bars on the game pad. I also have the world's crappiest mouse at the moment...
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When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#14 Sep 15 2010 at 12:19 PM Rating: Excellent
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Mikhalia the Picky wrote:


But anyway, yeah... controller support is great, but I still prefer not to use a gamepad/joystick on PC with very few exceptions (roms, flight sims, mechwarrior, etc). To each their own though.


Honestly if keyboard worked better I would prefer to do keyboard only (like I did for XI) but the menu structure in particular is waaaay easier to navigate with the controller... but at least for me right now some aspects of battle are better with a keyboard.

I don't find the chatting thing toooo annoying and it is nice to be able to control my movement and type at the same time (which I used to be able to do in FFXI and it is annoying I cant do it in FFXIV)

I agree with you 100 per cent that it is insane that their NEW MMO has worse controls than their old one.
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lolgaxe wrote:
When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#15 Sep 15 2010 at 1:11 PM Rating: Good
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Having to go back and forth between the controller and keyboard when talking to linkshell or communicating in battle is a major issue for me. I am very social (isn't that partly the point of MMOs?) when I'm playing and am frequently helping someone with a question or supplying witty or not so witty banter to the linkshell or local group. Dropping that controller every minute or two to type is going to be a pain I don't want to deal with.

This is the main reason I haven't tried the controller, I completely believe its much more efficient and enjoyable when moving around and navigating, but I don't want to try it and become one of those silent folks. That or I try it and then go back to keyboard and feel annoyed at how hard it is to navigate. I honestly wonder if this is why a lot of people have complained that people are so quiet in the beta so far.

Blackheed
#16 Sep 15 2010 at 1:17 PM Rating: Good
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But then I'd be stuck with a completely useless gamepad and the game itself would probably cost $10-15 more. :(

Olorinus the Vile wrote:
Honestly if keyboard worked better I would prefer to do keyboard only (like I did for XI) but the menu structure in particular is waaaay easier to navigate with the controller... but at least for me right now some aspects of battle are better with a keyboard.
I hear this argument constantly (and heard it constantly with FFXI) but nobody ever really elaborated on why it's easier to navigate with a controller. "The game was designed for it!" is not a valid answer.

Edited, Sep 15th 2010 2:18pm by bsphil
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#17 Sep 15 2010 at 1:21 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Imagine the rage if you bought a game for your 360/PS3/Wii and found out that a keyboard and mouse work better than the controller.


Say, for example, FFXIV on PS3?

Heh. "Work Better" is a matter of opinion really. I wouldn't really go as far as to say either method is better. I will say that using a keyboard is certainly more convenient seeing as how you don't need to put down the controller to type.

I do find, however, that the controller is very natural and works quite well.
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#18 Sep 15 2010 at 2:08 PM Rating: Excellent
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Olorinus the Vile wrote:
Borkachev wrote:
I actually think that with hardware mouse enabled, keyboard/mouse is the best control scheme. It's a lot more efficient in battle.

Two reasons for that: one is the hotbar. On the gamepad, you have to scroll left and right through each ability before selecting it, which is very slow.


Yeah there are issues with this for sure - especially since I am still clumsy and sometimes push down a bit and move to the next tier. It is hard to tell though because in other ways the gamepad is more efficient though - and once I get better with it I am not sure it will feel slower - I am also having less problem with selecting the ability and then having it not go off because I hit it too soon.

I think ultimately once I get macros for some abilities set up the combo of macros and selecting from the hotbar will be just as fast as keyboard input - especially once I have more than one bar of abilities, since it seems like it will actually be more intuitive to switch between bars on the game pad. I also have the world's crappiest mouse at the moment...


Since with this game you're also balancing your stamina as you stack moves any advantage the keyboard has there isn't as big as you'd think. Now that I've got a ton of crap to juggle with conjurer at 20 I use all 3 tiers now. 1st tier-basics like spirit dart, guard, radiance, cure, cureII, 2nd-buffs + tranquility, 3rd-nukes+spiritbind. Not sure how complicated that gets for people new to controllers, but I'm loving how easy it is for me to do multiple things quickly. I push the CureII button and before the animation and stamina bar changes I'm already sitting on my next move. A lot of it is remembering where you're placing all your abilities in the hotbar and having it make sense to ya for easier use...

I guess the switching to keyboard to chat is the toughest thing, but I did that all through XI so it's 2nd nature now. I don't realize I'm doin' it half the time.

Edited, Sep 15th 2010 4:10pm by TwistedOwl
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#19 Sep 15 2010 at 2:14 PM Rating: Decent
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windexy wrote:
Most PC users get themselves in a tizzy because for 99% of the games the best tool for the job is a keyboard and mouse. They are stuck thinking, computer = key board and mouse.


It's the default because it's faster, more efficient, and more responsive than a controller can ever be.

Digital and pinpoint accuracy > Analog with rigid measurements.
#20 Sep 15 2010 at 2:18 PM Rating: Good
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bsphil wrote:
But then I'd be stuck with a completely useless gamepad and the game itself would probably cost $10-15 more. :(

Olorinus the Vile wrote:
Honestly if keyboard worked better I would prefer to do keyboard only (like I did for XI) but the menu structure in particular is waaaay easier to navigate with the controller... but at least for me right now some aspects of battle are better with a keyboard.
I hear this argument constantly (and heard it constantly with FFXI) but nobody ever really elaborated on why it's easier to navigate with a controller. "The game was designed for it!" is not a valid answer.


There is no "why" it just is - I don't have a philosophical answer for you. There is no mathematical equation. It just feels more natural.
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lolgaxe wrote:
When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#21 Sep 15 2010 at 2:18 PM Rating: Excellent
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bsphil wrote:
But then I'd be stuck with a completely useless gamepad and the game itself would probably cost $10-15 more. :(

Olorinus the Vile wrote:
Honestly if keyboard worked better I would prefer to do keyboard only (like I did for XI) but the menu structure in particular is waaaay easier to navigate with the controller... but at least for me right now some aspects of battle are better with a keyboard.
I hear this argument constantly (and heard it constantly with FFXI) but nobody ever really elaborated on why it's easier to navigate with a controller. "The game was designed for it!" is not a valid answer.

Edited, Sep 15th 2010 2:18pm by bsphil


You can walk and change the camera at the same time while using the analog that is not available on keyboard to adjust the rate at which you walk and/or move the camera. Accessing the macro bar is easy. I don't really enjoy combo key presses on a keyboard. With ALT and CTRL mapped to the triggers, you can select what you need by using the d-pad at the same time as you move about or change the veiw. Using the d-pad to target is great, left/right will allow you to back up without combo key presses. Accessing the menu while you are walking is easy. Auto-run mapped to L1 is how I roll. Multi-tasking in genral is easier because all the buttons are within inches of each other, literally in the palm of your hands.

Admittedly, part of my prefrence is simply my lack of typing skills, and the fact the the keyboard is so spread out and I like to play with the lights off. Finding the right key at the critical moment is, well, critical. Chatting is really a sometimes activity, usually I keep it completly out of reach unless I'm trying to party. After the party is setup and coordinated, it goes back on the shelf. I also play on a couch, a big comfy couch that has no level place to set the mouse. The mouse on a book on the armrest only goes so far.

Although I prefer the Triggers for ALT and CTRL, there is no doubt that the same command can be selected more quickly by the dextrous keyboard users! Makes my left pinky twitch just thinking about it.

At any rate, there should be no debate about which way is better. That is preference and to each their own is absolutely correct. The only purpose here is to suggest to those might try it specific reason why they might find it prefferable. For those of you who like to play on a big comfy couch, give it a shot!

It seems reasonable that players would know what they prefer from experience rather than conjecture. Only a handul of the people who are sticking to the keyboard and mouse have actually tried FFXIV with a gamepad and found it lacking.

In some ways I'm seeing that the controller is the Green Eggs and Ham of FFXIV.
#22 Sep 15 2010 at 2:20 PM Rating: Excellent
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blackheed wrote:
Having to go back and forth between the controller and keyboard when talking to linkshell or communicating in battle is a major issue for me. I am very social (isn't that partly the point of MMOs?) when I'm playing and am frequently helping someone with a question or supplying witty or not so witty banter to the linkshell or local group. Dropping that controller every minute or two to type is going to be a pain I don't want to deal with.

This is the main reason I haven't tried the controller, I completely believe its much more efficient and enjoyable when moving around and navigating, but I don't want to try it and become one of those silent folks. That or I try it and then go back to keyboard and feel annoyed at how hard it is to navigate. I honestly wonder if this is why a lot of people have complained that people are so quiet in the beta so far.

Blackheed


I talk all the time - it hasn't really impeded me... and since I only need 1 hand for moving my char it actually makes it easier to talk when I am moving ....
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lolgaxe wrote:
When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#23 Sep 15 2010 at 2:20 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Digital and pinpoint accuracy > Analog with rigid measurements.


See what I mean about the "this one tool is always better" mindset? This is really only the case if the application you are using is designed for controller or keyboard and mouse or some other device.

Get this.... some graphic designers DON'T use a mouse, they use a tablet and stylus! Because its the better tool for the job.

Edited, Sep 15th 2010 3:21pm by windexy
#24 Sep 15 2010 at 2:24 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
In some ways I'm seeing that the controller is the Green Eggs and Ham of FFXIV.


Took me a few seconds to get it but that a really good phrase to use in place of "You can't know until you've tried".
#25 Sep 15 2010 at 2:28 PM Rating: Excellent
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RufuSwho wrote:
I also play on a couch, a big comfy couch that has no level place to set the mouse. The mouse on a book on the armrest only goes so far.


Funny you should mention this... because one of the bonus things about the gamepad is it has allowed me to move from playing in my uncomfortable straight-backed chair (buying a new comp means no big dollah left for comfy office chair) - to my armchair. Mouse has too short of a cord for the armchair and would work crappy from the armchair anyway. Keyboard sits on a coffee table beside me - or in my lap, no problem.

This has actually been the biggest bonus of the gamepad.

RufuSwho wrote:

At any rate, there should be no debate about which way is better. That is preference and to each their own is absolutely correct. The only purpose here is to suggest to those might try it specific reason why they might find it prefferable. For those of you who like to play on a big comfy couch, give it a shot!

It seems reasonable that players would know what they prefer from experience rather than conjecture. Only a handul of the people who are sticking to the keyboard and mouse have actually tried FFXIV with a gamepad and found it lacking.

In some ways I'm seeing that the controller is the Green Eggs and Ham of FFXIV.


Yeah. I have to agree - if people haven't played with the gamepad it is a little silly to talk about how much better keyboard and mouse is. Keyboard only would still be nice for me - but now that I've tried gamepad and found it works better - I am happy to use the gamepad.

As for accuracy with mouse versus gamepad - if this were a first person shooter it would matter - but there is precious little in this game where that kind of accuracy is necessary. I would, however, happily use a mouse in a super crowded environment where I wanted to pick out 1 pc or npc, however. But those situations are rare enough to make the gamepad more attractive for general use.
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lolgaxe wrote:
When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#26 Sep 15 2010 at 2:55 PM Rating: Excellent
RufuSwho wrote:
I also play on a couch, a big comfy couch that has no level place to set the mouse. The mouse on a book on the armrest only goes so far.



Screenshot
#27 Sep 15 2010 at 3:23 PM Rating: Good
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It is rather annoying. Maybe they expect you to have the PS3 controller? That is what I use and it works fine. (Before you ask why the **** I want to play this on a PC if I have a PS3 it is because my bf and I both want to play at the same time. So we can't very well both use the PS3)

At least it has been said the mouse support will be around soon and then I will switch. I just prefer it for talking with other players quickly and in a party, that is a must.
#28 Sep 15 2010 at 3:33 PM Rating: Decent
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should it be packed with a controller?

yes they should! ha. maybe not, it'd be some cheap piece of branded plastic we'd all moan and cry about...

but on this note, playing with either the PS3 or the 360 controller is a dream compared to trying to play solely with the keyboard! especially as the mouse is OTL at the moment. "excluding of course the 3rd party - not quite really an official version of Windower"

but i have to say that like with Dragon Age: Origins, i find playing FFXIV with both the controller and the keyboard the best of both worlds. controller for running around, getting in and out of the menu, and targeting foes! but once i'm locked on to a beasty... i'm hitting numbers on the keyboard until i get my macros set up on the controller.

keyboard has its pros as does the controller... but this game, at least this version seems to be heavily designed with the idea of the controller.
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#29 Sep 15 2010 at 4:08 PM Rating: Good
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Olorinus the Vile wrote:
bsphil wrote:
But then I'd be stuck with a completely useless gamepad and the game itself would probably cost $10-15 more. :(

Olorinus the Vile wrote:
Honestly if keyboard worked better I would prefer to do keyboard only (like I did for XI) but the menu structure in particular is waaaay easier to navigate with the controller... but at least for me right now some aspects of battle are better with a keyboard.
I hear this argument constantly (and heard it constantly with FFXI) but nobody ever really elaborated on why it's easier to navigate with a controller. "The game was designed for it!" is not a valid answer.


There is no "why" it just is - I don't have a philosophical answer for you. There is no mathematical equation. It just feels more natural.



I think there is a philosophical answer and that is: experience. Even if there was all the written evidence in the world; like:


The general ergonomics of a gamepad to a keyboard i.e. I would need three hands in what a controller could do with two. Meaning, using AWSD + Arrows AND mouse logically covers more space than the confines of a controller.

The general logic of trade-offs. Yes the keyboard IS better for typing and ultimate customization, but controllers offer general overall comfort (sitting on a couch/unless you are keyboard only...and hand movement/position)

The fact that UI design has a lot to do with it. Specifically the dpad is the workhorse here and so many elements use arrows/dpad, things do seem to flow better. You just need the mindset of this as a console game.


...all that doesn't matter. (let's just assume those were 100% objective.)

Though just experiencing it would show that the logic behind the UI and movement was created in conjunction with a controller. And that can't really be explained by most people because we aren't game designers. Even so, most experiences can be explained until everything is understood logically, however as ****tangent Mary's Room (a thought experiment) shows us, all that doesn't matter until we actually pick up a controller. /tangent***

When I played FFXII on my emulator it sucked because I was using a keyboard and mouse. Yes, it was doable and very playable, but since it wasn't designed at all for a keyboard some things were clunky even after my customization. I assume with FFXIV the keyboard was in high consideration during development, but the mouse certainly wasn't (given the lack of multi-mouse button support) and adding to the fact that its coming out for PS3, I would only assume that the controller is the preferred method of play and design.

ALL of that being said: I too prefer a nice keyboard/mouse set-up, but I tried the controller and in the end it was very comfortable and intuitive.
#30 Sep 15 2010 at 4:12 PM Rating: Good
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Olorinus the Vile wrote:
bsphil wrote:
But then I'd be stuck with a completely useless gamepad and the game itself would probably cost $10-15 more. :(

Olorinus the Vile wrote:
Honestly if keyboard worked better I would prefer to do keyboard only (like I did for XI) but the menu structure in particular is waaaay easier to navigate with the controller... but at least for me right now some aspects of battle are better with a keyboard.
I hear this argument constantly (and heard it constantly with FFXI) but nobody ever really elaborated on why it's easier to navigate with a controller. "The game was designed for it!" is not a valid answer.


There is no "why" it just is - I don't have a philosophical answer for you. There is no mathematical equation. It just feels more natural.
I'm not asking for a philosophical answer, I'm asking for a technical answer that breaks down what exactly is more functional and easier to accomplish when using a controller instead of a keyboard. Something more like this:

RufuSwho wrote:
bsphil wrote:
But then I'd be stuck with a completely useless gamepad and the game itself would probably cost $10-15 more. :(

Olorinus the Vile wrote:
Honestly if keyboard worked better I would prefer to do keyboard only (like I did for XI) but the menu structure in particular is waaaay easier to navigate with the controller... but at least for me right now some aspects of battle are better with a keyboard.
I hear this argument constantly (and heard it constantly with FFXI) but nobody ever really elaborated on why it's easier to navigate with a controller. "The game was designed for it!" is not a valid answer.
You can walk and change the camera at the same time while using the analog that is not available on keyboard to adjust the rate at which you walk and/or move the camera. Accessing the macro bar is easy. I don't really enjoy combo key presses on a keyboard. With ALT and CTRL mapped to the triggers, you can select what you need by using the d-pad at the same time as you move about or change the veiw. Using the d-pad to target is great, left/right will allow you to back up without combo key presses. Accessing the menu while you are walking is easy. Auto-run mapped to L1 is how I roll. Multi-tasking in genral is easier because all the buttons are within inches of each other, literally in the palm of your hands.

Admittedly, part of my prefrence is simply my lack of typing skills, and the fact the the keyboard is so spread out and I like to play with the lights off. Finding the right key at the critical moment is, well, critical. Chatting is really a sometimes activity, usually I keep it completly out of reach unless I'm trying to party. After the party is setup and coordinated, it goes back on the shelf. I also play on a couch, a big comfy couch that has no level place to set the mouse. The mouse on a book on the armrest only goes so far.

Although I prefer the Triggers for ALT and CTRL, there is no doubt that the same command can be selected more quickly by the dextrous keyboard users! Makes my left pinky twitch just thinking about it.

At any rate, there should be no debate about which way is better. That is preference and to each their own is absolutely correct. The only purpose here is to suggest to those might try it specific reason why they might find it prefferable. For those of you who like to play on a big comfy couch, give it a shot!

It seems reasonable that players would know what they prefer from experience rather than conjecture. Only a handul of the people who are sticking to the keyboard and mouse have actually tried FFXIV with a gamepad and found it lacking.

In some ways I'm seeing that the controller is the Green Eggs and Ham of FFXIV.
1) I can adjust the camera and moving direction at the same time? It's not analog, no. I haven't tried a controller for this aspect yet though. People brought that up with FFXI but neglected to realize that movement was still only possible in 8 directions, the only difference was that moving forward and hitting right started turning your character towards the right while still going forward, rather than initiating a direct northeast (assuming north = forward) movement. In FFXI this result in your character still turning in an arc. FFXIV doesn't do this, and it's kinda annoying, frankly. I hate every time I find something done worse in FFXIV than in FFXI. I haven't actually gotten around to making macros yet, the UI is too laggy and aggravating so I end up not wanting to take the time to go through the process of writing a macro.

2) Ease of access - This probably relates to my fluency in home row typing and why I find the keyboard no more difficult to use than a controller. I naturally keep my fingers on asdf and jkl;, which just happens to be where the movement and camera keys are. Right now there are no ctrl+ commands for inventory/equipment/skills/etc. which is really aggravating (again something done better in FFXI than in FFXIV), which goes a long way towards making keyboard controlling perfect. By the by, I've been an addict of Alt+tab and alt+shift+tab, I could do it blindfolded while typing across multiple windows. I'm very comfortable with it. Even in FFXI when Q and E were used for scrolling left and right respectively through available targets, I almost NEVER used them because I was so comfortable with alt+tab. The menu is laggy and I wouldn't want to navigate it whether I have a controller for it or not. It's just annoying. I also have a backlit keyboard which makes finding keys in the dark easy, although again due to being able to type without looking at the keyboard anyway, it's not all that necessary.

3) Comfortability and that **** mouse - I don't use a mouse either. It's really ****** for FFXIV even with hardware mouse enabled (aside from rearranging/resizing the interface, which can be done once). Also, since I play on a laptop, I can already sit and play on a big comfy couch, but I tend not to because I'm just more comfortable sitting upright in an office chair that I can easily move around and get up from. Sinking into a couch is nice... for a movie where I'm stuck there for a few hours doing absolutely nothing but staring. Even watching regular half-hour TV shows, I often do that in my kitchen on a backed stool so I can still easily get up and move around to do things as they come up. ¯\(º_o)/¯ That's just how I prefer to operate.

I guess I'll have to try using the controller to see if it's a true analog directional input for character movement. It wasn't in FFXI and people constantly claimed it was. Somewhere I still have my Boom PS Joy adapter. I imagine that I'll still prefer using a keyboard just because I'm so comfortable using it for everything, but if I'm ever really bored I'll give it a shot.

Edited, Sep 15th 2010 5:33pm by bsphil
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#31 Sep 15 2010 at 4:15 PM Rating: Good
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I used a logitech rumblepad 2 for XI because I switched over from PS2 and was used to it.
I tried learning to play with the kbd/mouse but found the controller was just better at charater movement and camera controls, as well as super fast macro access, once you memorized your layouts.
The only time I really used the mouse was for item based menus, as right clicking would take you right to the bottom or top of the inventory.
I think it's more comfortable because the game was designed for ps2, I'd imagine the same will be true with XIV, as they had to optimize the game for ps3 controllers.
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#32 Sep 15 2010 at 4:19 PM Rating: Good
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Funny, it's never crossed my mind that a gamepad could be seen as a hindrance to chatting. I don't even think about it when I type. The 1 second required to move my hand from mouse to keyboard to type is the same time it takes to rest my gamepad on my leg to do the same. Also, I use a PlayStation controller so I can actually type without setting it down by holding it between the index finger and thumb of my left hand (basically holding the controller like a backwards hand gun by grasping only the left handle). It sounds odd when I try to explain it, but it's so easy I often do it out of habit. The only finger I can't really use when doing so is my left thumb. All around great for when you're leading an LS event and have to type out quick commands to the party during frenzied battles.

Anyway, I'm surprised no one has mentioned a combination of gamepad + KB controls for the best of both worlds. I've always found a gamepad offers better control over movement, camera, and menus but I prefer keyboard for some of the battle commands. So I often use those with my left hand while doing the rest with my right hand on the gamepad. I personally get the quickest control this way, especially being able to map all the buttons on the pad.
#33 Sep 15 2010 at 4:25 PM Rating: Good
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Olorinus the Vile wrote:
well - after the initial learning curve (which was short) I have to say that this game is INFINITELY better/smoother with a gamepad. The menus are less laggy and easier to navigate - things like emotes are way easier to use, and I find that in battle my character responds faster and is more maneuverable (way easier to get behind the enemy and stabby stab stab).


FFXI was just as great with the gamepad, infact I have FFXIV setup exactly the same as I did for FFXI. You could even take it a step farther and buy a bluetooth receiver for your PC, and buy a PS3 controller then play wirelessly. I did that with FFXI and plan to do it again with 14.

Edited, Sep 15th 2010 6:28pm by Jeraziah
#34 Sep 15 2010 at 5:54 PM Rating: Excellent
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Lamnethx of the Seven Seas wrote:
RufuSwho wrote:
I also play on a couch, a big comfy couch that has no level place to set the mouse. The mouse on a book on the armrest only goes so far.



Screenshot


+1 this. I have a recliner for my gaming system.

I get that stores sell "desk chairs" and that people believe this means you need a "desk chair" for a "desk", but using a "desk chair" for a "desk" is like using a "coffee mug" for "coffee". If you like it, fine. But if you have something you like better, use that instead.

Put a sofa or a recliner or whatever you want in front of your computer. If you're going to be sitting there for hours, you should at least be comfortable.

The same people who say they don't like sitting at their computer for hours because their chair is uncomfortable are always using like $35 office chairs or spare dining room chairs or whatever... get a comfortable chair for your computer.

This has nothing to do with keyboard vs mouse vs controller; but really. You wouldn't sit on a stone bench to play PS3/360 for 8 hours just because it's a "living room bench". People should stop confining themselves to a ****** chair for their computer.
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#35 Sep 15 2010 at 5:57 PM Rating: Excellent
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Mikhalia the Picky wrote:

+1 this. I have a recliner for my gaming system.

I get that stores sell "desk chairs" and that people believe this means you need a "desk chair" for a "desk", but using a "desk chair" for a "desk" is like using a "coffee mug" for "coffee". If you like it, fine. But if you have something you like better, use that instead.

Put a sofa or a recliner or whatever you want in front of your computer. If you're going to be sitting there for hours, you should at least be comfortable.

The same people who say they don't like sitting at their computer for hours because their chair is uncomfortable are always using like $35 office chairs or spare dining room chairs or whatever... get a comfortable chair for your computer.

This has nothing to do with keyboard vs mouse vs controller; but really. You wouldn't sit on a stone bench to play PS3/360 for 8 hours just because it's a "living room bench". People should stop confining themselves to a sh*tty chair for their computer.


Oh god...I was using a dining room chair for a bit and that was so bad on the back...now I moved the middle section of a 3-piece sectional to the computer...still looking for a good leg rest to prop the feet up, but it's gettin' there
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#36 Sep 15 2010 at 6:37 PM Rating: Excellent
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TwistedOwl wrote:
Mikhalia the Picky wrote:

+1 this. I have a recliner for my gaming system.

I get that stores sell "desk chairs" and that people believe this means you need a "desk chair" for a "desk", but using a "desk chair" for a "desk" is like using a "coffee mug" for "coffee". If you like it, fine. But if you have something you like better, use that instead.

Put a sofa or a recliner or whatever you want in front of your computer. If you're going to be sitting there for hours, you should at least be comfortable.

The same people who say they don't like sitting at their computer for hours because their chair is uncomfortable are always using like $35 office chairs or spare dining room chairs or whatever... get a comfortable chair for your computer.

This has nothing to do with keyboard vs mouse vs controller; but really. You wouldn't sit on a stone bench to play PS3/360 for 8 hours just because it's a "living room bench". People should stop confining themselves to a sh*tty chair for their computer.


Oh god...I was using a dining room chair for a bit and that was so bad on the back...now I moved the middle section of a 3-piece sectional to the computer...still looking for a good leg rest to prop the feet up, but it's gettin' there


I cannot think of a single person I've met that didn't like using their computer for prolonged periods of time who had a comfortable chair. Just sayin.
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#37 Sep 15 2010 at 6:46 PM Rating: Decent
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Original topic answer: But I don't want to use a controller. I'm perfectly happy with my keyboard.

And the latest convo about comfy computer chairs: my goal is to one day have a recliner for a computer chair.
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#38 Sep 15 2010 at 6:52 PM Rating: Good
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I tried a controller, but I just didn't get on with it. Movement was all good, but with MMO games, I need easy access to all my keys on the keyboard. I will stick to keyboard and mouse. I just wish they'd make the mouse view more like how a 3rd person camera should be (continuous movement) rather than a first person camera (static movement).

It was fine in the closed beta :/
#39 Sep 15 2010 at 6:55 PM Rating: Good
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If I was playing solo, I'd probably use my ps3 controller for xiv in it's current state. However, I talk a lot and that makes using a controller a pain in the *** compared to using a keyboard. FFXI was infinitely better on a keyboard and I don't know how they managed to **** up their starting position so bad with xiv. When they get it back up to xi level at least I will be very happy.

Sure you can move the camera and move at the same time with a controller, in xi I can do that with only one hand- and that is what I want back.
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#40 Sep 15 2010 at 7:35 PM Rating: Good
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Deadgye wrote:
Sure you can move the camera and move at the same time with a controller, in xi I can do that with only one hand- and that is what I want back.


Especially considering that 80% of characters are Miqo'te.
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#41 Sep 16 2010 at 9:07 AM Rating: Decent
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To those of you looking to buy a gamepad I recommend the Logitech Cordless Rumblepad 2 http://www.logitech.com/en-us/gaming/controllers/devices/287

I have the Xbox 360 controller for Windows and I much prefer the Logitech controller. The Logitech CR2 has a lot more customization options, better drivers/more updates, around 100 hours of battery life and is only $30 from Amazon.com
#42 Sep 16 2010 at 9:25 AM Rating: Good
Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
Like I said, nothing against people who prefer to use controllers, but keyboard support should be AT LEAST as good as controller support. I reinstalled FFXI last week ($13 shoes, for one, and I wanted to show Vana'diel to my future brother in law who wants to play XIV but has never seen XI) and noticed that FFXI's keyboard support is better than FFXIV's keyboard support. How is this even remotely logical that FFXIV is inferior to FFXI in terms of keyboard controls and support? It makes no sense to me.


That sums it up rather nicely. SE is apparently the only MMO company that can't make an MMO with a reasonable keyboard/mouse interface. And that's largely the issue...it's not like SE would be breaking new ground in the industry by providing a slick keyboard/mouse UI.

As others have stated, I don't want to feel forced to use an interface device that I have to put in my lap or find desk space for every time I want to type something. There's no reason that it should be necessary. What the controller crowd doesn't seem to be willing to accept is that for me, buying a controller specifically to play an MMO on PC is not something I'm willing to consider, and nor is it something a great many of other PC MMO gamers are willing to consider either. A smart game developer would have known that and taken steps to accommodate the primary input devices for the platforms that they're releasing their games on.

So if the interface handling goes client side (and I fully expect it will) and SE tweaks the menu system as they've said they're going to do, it will be a step in the right direction.

On a related note, I get a kick out of the controller people who complain that they don't want the keyboard/mouse crowd to have an advantage of any kind, yet they're all too happy to crow about how much better the UI is with a controller. I can't speak for everyone, but I don't want an advantage...I just want something good.
#43 Sep 16 2010 at 10:48 AM Rating: Excellent
Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
Like I said, nothing against people who prefer to use controllers, but keyboard support should be AT LEAST as good as controller support. I reinstalled FFXI last week ($13 shoes, for one, and I wanted to show Vana'diel to my future brother in law who wants to play XIV but has never seen XI) and noticed that FFXI's keyboard support is better than FFXIV's keyboard support. How is this even remotely logical that FFXIV is inferior to FFXI in terms of keyboard controls and support? It makes no sense to me.


I am actually not surprised at all. I keep seeing eerie similarities between SE and the company I work for and taking a step backwards is something we do all the time...only the fact that one of our products is one of the best out there keeps everything from imploding due to ridiculous management decisions.

Quote:
But anyway, yeah... controller support is great, but I still prefer not to use a gamepad/joystick on PC with very few exceptions (roms, flight sims, mechwarrior, etc). To each their own though.


^ this. Use whatever floats your boat.
#44 Sep 16 2010 at 11:16 AM Rating: Decent
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The One and Only Aurelius wrote:
Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
Like I said, nothing against people who prefer to use controllers, but keyboard support should be AT LEAST as good as controller support. I reinstalled FFXI last week ($13 shoes, for one, and I wanted to show Vana'diel to my future brother in law who wants to play XIV but has never seen XI) and noticed that FFXI's keyboard support is better than FFXIV's keyboard support. How is this even remotely logical that FFXIV is inferior to FFXI in terms of keyboard controls and support? It makes no sense to me.


That sums it up rather nicely. SE is apparently the only MMO company that can't make an MMO with a reasonable keyboard/mouse interface. And that's largely the issue...it's not like SE would be breaking new ground in the industry by providing a slick keyboard/mouse UI.

As others have stated, I don't want to feel forced to use an interface device that I have to put in my lap or find desk space for every time I want to type something. There's no reason that it should be necessary. What the controller crowd doesn't seem to be willing to accept is that for me, buying a controller specifically to play an MMO on PC is not something I'm willing to consider, and nor is it something a great many of other PC MMO gamers are willing to consider either. A smart game developer would have known that and taken steps to accommodate the primary input devices for the platforms that they're releasing their games on.

So if the interface handling goes client side (and I fully expect it will) and SE tweaks the menu system as they've said they're going to do, it will be a step in the right direction.

On a related note, I get a kick out of the controller people who complain that they don't want the keyboard/mouse crowd to have an advantage of any kind, yet they're all too happy to crow about how much better the UI is with a controller. I can't speak for everyone, but I don't want an advantage...I just want something good.


Just for the record I wouldn't go so far as saying I am a member of "the controller crowd"

I just heard reports that the UI seems to make more "sense" and is easier to use with a controller, so I tried it. It is working really well for me.

Ideally I would prefer to be keyboard only - but since controller seems to work better atm, it seems pointless to cling to using keyboard only just because it's my "primary input device."

It sucks that SE hasn't made the interface work equally well for all forms of input... but *shrugs* what can I do about it? I can either keep using my "primary input device" while being frustrated - or I can use a controller and have a better experience. I've chosen to use the controller.

You have the same choice -unless you are too poor to afford a controller - which would be too bad... but maybe save up for one? Or keep using the keyboard/mouse if you want to, I guess.

If you are frustrated you might want to try controller though. Even if you would really prefer to play it with some other input device. It is a bit silly to rage at people who like to play with controller though. I mean, stow the passive aggressive thing. It isn't as if controller users made the game this way - not the ones here anyway.
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#45 Sep 16 2010 at 11:40 AM Rating: Decent
I've been doing all of my gaming on my 52" HDTV for a while now. I have it hooked up through HDMI currently, and for keyboard+mouse control games I simply use a big glass cutting board (I used to use it for a pizza cutting surface) that I place on the couch beside me for a solid mousepad surface. The keyboard sits in my lap.
I currently use a wireless combo, but when I was playing FPS games I had a Razer Naga hooked up via a cheap USB extender to solve the distance issue (I sit about 4 feet away from the tv).

Sadly my wrist is getting shot in my old age and it's kind of painful to use the mouse for long periods of time these days. That's why I like the gamepad friendly option of FFXI and FFXIV. I love MMORPGs, but you need to spend quality time with a mouse to successfully play most of them.

The Gamepad doesn't fatigue my wrist like a mouse does. A MMORPG that uses a controller like that is my savior!

Now get off my lawn, the lot of you! Smiley: mad
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#46 Sep 16 2010 at 11:41 AM Rating: Good
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I may have to take the plunge and go controller. I played FFXI on 360 for a while but I never quite got a hang of going back and forth between the keyboard and controller.
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#47 Sep 16 2010 at 11:57 AM Rating: Decent
The Glorious DeadlyLust wrote:
I may have to take the plunge and go controller. I played FFXI on 360 for a while but I never quite got a hang of going back and forth between the keyboard and controller.

I never had a problem with it honestly. I just rest the controller on my leg and type in chat, then grab the controller again. You're not going to be doing anything other than typing for those few seconds anyway, and you have autorun and /follow if you want to type and travel at the same time.

You might lose a half second of valuable time versus a dedicated keyboard user I'd imagine.
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#48 Sep 16 2010 at 11:59 AM Rating: Default
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windexy wrote:
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Digital and pinpoint accuracy > Analog with rigid measurements.


See what I mean about the "this one tool is always better" mindset? This is really only the case if the application you are using is designed for controller or keyboard and mouse or some other device.

Get this.... some graphic designers DON'T use a mouse, they use a tablet and stylus! Because its the better tool for the job.


Being upset about my statement and trying to turn it around to make yourself seem less stupid, doesn't make what I stated any less true.

I funny it hilarious, however, that you attempt to link my comment that a digital controller (mouse) is infinitely more accurate than an analog (gamepad) -- which is true, no matter how much that may burn your oats -- to a career in graphics designing. If you're going to try to argue against someone, at least make some **** sense when you attempt to do so.
#49 Sep 16 2010 at 12:56 PM Rating: Good
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Ok so I was never AGAINST gamepad users, though we did lock horns on the notion that all keyboard users are stupid for not using a gamepad. Or should be forced to use a gamepad to make up for SE's bad implementation of the keyboard/mouse.

I decided to whip out my PS2 controller adapter and gave the game a shot with that.

I will agree, it does work very nicely. Most notably the camera is a lot more natural when tied to the analog stick. It goes where my eyes want to look, without a fight. And it is nice being able to sit back in my chair and put down my arms while playing.

So for most activities (grinding/crafting/mining) I think I'll stick to the ps2 controller.

However for activities requiting a lot of typing/coordination, I will be using the keyboard. Also there are certain functions like camera zoom, screenshot, AoE 'z' toggle, that will bring me back to the keyboard when I need to use them a lot. Not to mention the F-keys when party targeting becomes an issue. (least until they add <stpt> tag i think).

So +1 to gamepad being good for a lot of things. But still +1 to improving the interface for mouse/keyboard users too.

Edited, Sep 16th 2010 2:57pm by RattyBatty
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#50 Sep 16 2010 at 1:16 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
AoE 'z' toggle


Assign & Use the Emote button (I put it on the top button of the 4 button config, because there was nothing there in Square's recommended config) while Active mode, this should let you switch between AOE and Specific Target while casting.
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#51 Sep 16 2010 at 2:23 PM Rating: Decent
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I tried using the logitech game controller i had sitting around for the past 2 years. For some reason when i use the Dpad and/or the Analog pad to move left or right to choose a skill in battle it 90% of the time goes up and down to the empty spots. Argh its frustrating and theres no real calibration for it. Now that i think of it though, I could probably download the actual logitech software for it and calibrate it. I'm a fricken genius.
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