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A Response From SE Regarding P2P UpdatesFollow

#1 Sep 16 2010 at 2:23 PM Rating: Good
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Dear Customer,

Thank you for contacting the Square Enix Support Centre.


I understand your problem and can relate to the issue of the fair-usage policy being broken. However I'm afraid to say the final version of the game will be using a peer-to-peer system identical to the one in the Beta. The main game will ship on a disc so it won't be necessary to download the initial 22GB (approx.) client. That said, patches which could be large will be distributed this way so although they will be smaller and less frequent they may still take you over the fair-usage limit. I'm sorry about this and there are no plans to allow users to adjust their upload and download rates but we have made our head-office aware that this is causing problems for people and may be fixed in future.

Again I hope you aren't too put off by this and I hope the patches will be small enough and infrequent enough not to break your limit.

Warm Regards,
Square Enix Support Centre Team
Thank you again for contacting us and for your interest in Square Enix products!
More help and information are available at the Square Enix Support Centre website.
http://support.eu.square-enix.com/


This was sent me after I complained to the company for making the update system peer-to-peer and making them aware that British internet service providers, amongst many, have strong fair usage policies.
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#2 Sep 16 2010 at 2:25 PM Rating: Decent
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FFXIV will release as a 22 GB client?!!?

Wow!
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#3 Sep 16 2010 at 2:25 PM Rating: Good
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22GB.....

.....F-ck me.
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#4 Sep 16 2010 at 2:26 PM Rating: Decent
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Yea don't worry though, the haters will still say," What you see in Open Beta is what the game is". The extra 10gigs must be random Mithra **** they throw in with the game.
#5 Sep 16 2010 at 2:27 PM Rating: Good
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Did I read that right? 22 GB?!

Well everyone...we have indirect confirmation that the beta is holding back a TON. The beta client w/ all patches = ~8GB. I, for one, am even more pumped now than I have been.
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#6 Sep 16 2010 at 2:28 PM Rating: Good
Is it the 22nd yet? :(
#7 Sep 16 2010 at 2:39 PM Rating: Decent
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22GB?!

I actually like the sound of that. Must mean theres a lot more content we haven't seen yet in the beta.

That's great!

It does make me think, however, that when it comes to PS3 release. 22GB is a big chunk of space. And by March next year I'll bet there'll be updates to increase that.

So any PS3 players better have some space on their HDD. ;)
#8 Sep 16 2010 at 2:43 PM Rating: Good
scotchio wrote:
22GB?!

I actually like the sound of that. Must mean theres a lot more content we haven't seen yet in the beta.

That's great!

It does make me think, however, that when it comes to PS3 release. 22GB is a big chunk of space. And by March next year I'll bet there'll be updates to increase that.

So any PS3 players better have some space on their HDD. ;)


Luckily they will trim down the PS3's textures (rumors are 1/4th) so that the game should hopefully only take half as much room. As 40GB PS3s would be in trouble... not to mention the original 20GB versions >.>

Edited, Sep 16th 2010 3:44pm by Lamnethx
#9 Sep 16 2010 at 2:47 PM Rating: Default
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This was sent me after I complained to the company for making the update system peer-to-peer and making them aware that British internet service providers, amongst many, have strong fair usage policies.


Maybe you can explain why you think there is a problem worth making SE aware of?

I can't tell what your concern is? Are you concerned of going over your BW limit? Are you concerned that its using p2p? What is the actual concern over using a p2p client for updates?
#10 Sep 16 2010 at 2:49 PM Rating: Good
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Wait a minute, how many DVDs is that, 3 right?
Wouldn't it be a ***** it if ended up shipping as a Blu-ray disk...
Quote:
I can't tell what your concern is? Are you concerned of going over your BW limit? Are you concerned that its using p2p? What is the actual concern over using a p2p client for updates?

Some people have a limit on upload/download allowed per month (charged extra for more gigs used after that).
Many people have found when downloading patches, that they are GETTING the patch at like 5kbps, and GIVING it to others for like 60 KBPS. Meaning you're wasting most of your internet 'allowance' to give other people the patch, not get it for yourself.

Edited, Sep 16th 2010 4:51pm by RattyBatty
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#11 Sep 16 2010 at 2:50 PM Rating: Good
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windexy wrote:
Quote:
This was sent me after I complained to the company for making the update system peer-to-peer and making them aware that British internet service providers, amongst many, have strong fair usage policies.


Maybe you can explain why you think there is a problem worth making SE aware of?

I can't tell what your concern is? Are you concerned of going over your BW limit? Are you concerned that its using p2p? What is the actual concern over using a p2p client for updates?


Some ISPs limit bandwidth for P2P programs, as the OP mentioned. Excess downloads via P2P could cause him issues with his ISP.

Also, I'm pleased to note that it looks like they actually drafted an email and didn't just reply with a form "Thanks for contacting us, have a nice day" email. Hopefully they explore alternative download methods and give users the option of P2P or direct download.
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#12 Sep 16 2010 at 2:57 PM Rating: Decent
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I am a little confused by this myself. The actual game usage is going to make the updates seem minuscule at best.

I can see how P2P has a certain stigma to it, but at the end of the day from an ISP's perspective there is no difference in the way in which you are downloading, so playing a game (with a constant stream of data coming into your computer) is going to eat far more of your bandwidth than the actual updates for the game itself.
#13 Sep 16 2010 at 2:58 PM Rating: Decent
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Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
windexy wrote:
Quote:
This was sent me after I complained to the company for making the update system peer-to-peer and making them aware that British internet service providers, amongst many, have strong fair usage policies.


Maybe you can explain why you think there is a problem worth making SE aware of?

I can't tell what your concern is? Are you concerned of going over your BW limit? Are you concerned that its using p2p? What is the actual concern over using a p2p client for updates?


Some ISPs limit bandwidth for P2P programs, as the OP mentioned. Excess downloads via P2P could cause him issues with his ISP.

Also, I'm pleased to note that it looks like they actually drafted an email and didn't just reply with a form "Thanks for contacting us, have a nice day" email. Hopefully they explore alternative download methods and give users the option of P2P or direct download.


Most also have a much lower limit on uploads, so yeah... when you have to sit downloading at 5kbps for 16 hours while uploading at 60-100kbps.. your limits asplode
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#14 Sep 16 2010 at 2:58 PM Rating: Default
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Some ISPs limit bandwidth for P2P programs, as the OP mentioned. Excess downloads via P2P could cause him issues with his ISP.


Hmm... maybe being a network admin jades me in that I don't see how this is any of SE's concern. Seems like it would make more sense to send an email to your ISP letting them know that more businesses are making more products available online and that their (ISP) limits are starting to pose problems.

Quote:
, that they are GETTING the patch at like 5kbps, and GIVING it to others for like 60 KBPS.


This is more about configuring your equipment/software correctly or working with the ISP to configure your equipment so that you can't exceed your upload limits. (Under QoS on linksys routers.) (FTWDK: you always need some up stream bandwidth set aside if you want to download at your full potential)

Thanks for making the reply public OP, but I just don't see how your concerns should be directed toward anyone but your ISP.

Edited, Sep 16th 2010 4:00pm by windexy
#15 Sep 16 2010 at 3:01 PM Rating: Decent
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Well if worst comes to worst maybe you can use a 3rd party torrent client like many had to do for certain pieces of patches that SE pushed and throttle the **** out of your upload.
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#16 Sep 16 2010 at 3:04 PM Rating: Default
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Well if worst comes to worst maybe you can use a 3rd party torrent client like many had to do for certain pieces of patches that SE pushed and throttle the **** out of your upload.


I would set the limit at the router, then you don't have to worry about anything eating up the BW you need to ACK. Barring that I would use something like bwmeter to throttle the upload traffic across all applications. Just so you don't have to worry about it... ever.


Edited, Sep 16th 2010 4:06pm by windexy
#17 Sep 16 2010 at 3:06 PM Rating: Decent
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windexy wrote:
Quote:
Well if worst comes to worst maybe you can use a 3rd party torrent client like many had to do for certain pieces of patches that SE pushed and throttle the **** out of your upload.


I would set the limit at the router, then you don't have to worry about anything eating up the BW you need to ACK. Barring that I would use something like bwmeter to throttle the upload traffic accros all applications. Just so you don't have to worry about it... ever.


Would work just as well. So long as you're not on a private tracker trying to keep a decent ratio :P.


Edited, Sep 16th 2010 4:07pm by Ipwnrice
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#18 Sep 16 2010 at 3:08 PM Rating: Decent
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ditx wrote:
22GB.....

.....F-cken A me.


fixed.
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#19 Sep 16 2010 at 3:10 PM Rating: Default
Does anybody else find it funny (and a little sad?) that it took 8 replies before anyone actually commented on the OPs complaint, and that most people just focused on the size of the game? =P
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#20 Sep 16 2010 at 3:12 PM Rating: Decent
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22gb means the 5 other regions that won't be available initially, as well as instanced etc. areas.

Remember, that the FFXI expansion discs always installed areas we could not access at the start of expansion.

How large is the beta file we have now?
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#21 Sep 16 2010 at 3:13 PM Rating: Decent
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Would work just as well. So long as you're not on a private tracker trying to keep a decent ratio :P.


You don't cut off all your upload, you just need to set it a little (3-5k) below your max so that there is something left over to send back the acknowledgments.

When you're maxing out your upload the packets that have to be sent back to the sending server get the next set of data get queued up. Since your not acknowledging to the sending server that you have received the last data set it waits, eventually lowing the packet size and changing other settings to try slowing down the transfer, and then retrying in order to ensure it gets to you. (when using TCP)
#22 Sep 16 2010 at 3:14 PM Rating: Excellent
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windexy wrote:
Quote:
Some ISPs limit bandwidth for P2P programs, as the OP mentioned. Excess downloads via P2P could cause him issues with his ISP.


Hmm... maybe being a network admin jades me in that I don't see how this is any of SE's concern. Seems like it would make more sense to send an email to your ISP letting them know that more businesses are making more products available online and that their (ISP) limits are starting to pose problems.

[...]

Thanks for making the reply public OP, but I just don't see how your concerns should be directed toward anyone but your ISP.

Edited, Sep 16th 2010 4:00pm by windexy


I agree, mostly, but you know as well as I do that the ISP isn't going to really give a ****. Weird as it is for me to say this, the guy probably would have had BETTER luck asking SE to offer alternative download methods than asking his ISP to modify his bandwidth allotment just for one game.
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#23 Sep 16 2010 at 3:16 PM Rating: Good
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most people just focused on the size


Yah, that's actually pretty common.

Wait, what we talking about?
#24 Sep 16 2010 at 3:16 PM Rating: Good
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Hyanmen wrote:
22gb means the 5 other regions that won't be available initially, as well as instanced etc. areas.

Remember, that the FFXI expansion discs always installed areas we could not access at the start of expansion.

How large is the beta file we have now?


I think it's like 10-12 GB or so, but I'm at work so I can't check.

At any rate, I can still remember when I thought that a 500 MB install was pretty bulky. Seems like most games nowadays are 10+ GB. Wonder how long before they're taking up 100 GB and need to be shipped on Blu-Ray disks and be installed on 50 TB HDs in home computers.

*shakes head*
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#25 Sep 16 2010 at 3:18 PM Rating: Decent
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I agree, mostly, but you know as well as I do that the ISP isn't going to really give a sh*t. Weird as it is for me to say this, the guy probably would have had BETTER luck asking SE to offer alternative download methods than asking his ISP to modify his bandwidth allotment just for one game.


Very good point.
#26 Sep 16 2010 at 3:18 PM Rating: Good
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To those confused by my concerns. ALL British ISPs have 'fair usage' policies capping internet usage and they ALL do it to P2P traffic. We have no choice and we cannot bargain. :( Virgin Media, BT, Sky, Orange... they're all just the same.

A 6Gig update, as a feared may be the case on launch (but not known for certain) would not only be hard under the capped usage of P2P traffic, but also tip the fair usage allowance which for me is set at 4gig per day (a fair amount right?).

SO I was letting SE know that they were depressing the whole British market by using P2P, and to have them keep in mind to make updates small and less frequent, as they have said they will do :)

I can port-forward, I can disable fire wall, I use the ISP's own modem and their recommended router, but none of that counts if they cap it at their end. ^^;
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#27 Sep 16 2010 at 3:19 PM Rating: Decent
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How large is the beta file we have now?


The initial download is 4.7g.
#28 Sep 16 2010 at 3:20 PM Rating: Good
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I can totally understand the OP's concern.

Many ISP's in the UK have a monthly usage limit. The usage includes upload and download.

And they can also limit P2P services and restrict the speed.

So if a users limit is "X" GB a month, SE's P2P downloader tends to give more to the upstream than the downstream.

I was getting at most a 10kbs download and my upload was hitting 50kbs, so if someones download takes X hours, they have uploaded 5x more and that is usage that could make them exceed their limit.

Personally I would advise anyone playing online games to have an unlimited or at least a very high monthly usage limit.

#29 Sep 16 2010 at 3:21 PM Rating: Excellent
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Reebie wrote:
To those confused by my concerns. ALL British ISPs have 'fair usage' policies capping internet usage and they ALL do it to P2P traffic. We have no choice and we cannot bargain. :( Virgin Media, BT, Sky, Orange... they're all just the same.

A 6Gig update, as a feared may be the case on launch (but not known for certain) would not only be hard under the capped usage of P2P traffic, but also tip the fair usage allowance which for me is set at 4gig per day (a fair amount right?).

SO I was letting SE know that they were depressing the whole British market by using P2P, and to have them keep in mind to make updates small and less frequent, as they have said they will do :)

I can port-forward, I can disable fire wall, I use the ISP's own modem and their recommended router, but none of that counts if they cap it at their end. ^^;


I don't think they can do small AND less frequent. They can do more frequent smaller ones or less frequent bigger ones. Personally, I like the former better than the latter.
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#30 Sep 16 2010 at 3:22 PM Rating: Good
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22gb means the 5 other regions that won't be available initially, as well as instanced etc. areas.

Remember, that the FFXI expansion discs always installed areas we could not access at the start of expansion.

How large is the beta file we have now?


Its about 8 gigs right now so its a fair amount more data then we currently have. Having said that though I expect a good deal of it to be mission cutscene data. Don't forget sound takes up a disproportionate amount of space at high bit rates and they are aiming for a decent 5.1 sound system compression rate. Voice acting alone if there is a decent amount is bound to be a good 5 gigs of the data depending on the bit rate. But yeah its also probably stuff we won't see for a long time, lands unopened, mission data we won't see for months etc.

With people working on model viewers and a new version of POL utilities for FFXIV we will at least have lots of stuff to ogle over we won't see for months on end XD. The days shortly before an expansion release in FFXI was always my favorite time... not because of the actual content releasing day 1... but because I got to see content we wouldn't officially see for almost a year already put inside the game disc.
#31 Sep 16 2010 at 3:28 PM Rating: Excellent
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Hmm... maybe being a network admin jades me in that I don't see how this is any of SE's concern. Seems like it would make more sense to send an email to your ISP letting them know that more businesses are making more products available online and that their (ISP) limits are starting to pose problems.


its not that his ISP or interwebs company is just being on the rag, its almost illegal in some euro countries to even use p2p downloading at all. Britain i know has very strict rules on p2p (have family there), and so if a game company decides to release a euro version of a game, wouldnt you make it so euro people can download it?
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#32 Sep 16 2010 at 3:32 PM Rating: Decent
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To those confused by my concerns. ALL British ISPs have 'fair usage' policies capping internet usage and they ALL do it to P2P traffic. We have no choice and we cannot bargain. :( Virgin Media, BT, Sky, Orange... they're all just the same.

A 6Gig update, as a feared may be the case on launch (but not known for certain) would not only be hard under the capped usage of P2P traffic, but also tip the fair usage allowance which for me is set at 4gig per day (a fair amount right?).

SO I was letting SE know that they were depressing the whole British market by using P2P, and to have them keep in mind to make updates small and less frequent, as they have said they will do :)

I can port-forward, I can disable fire wall, I use the ISP's own modem and their recommended router, but none of that counts if they cap it at their end. ^^;


Sorry to hear they work that way... so this only applies to p2p? How much of a limit is there on http or ftp traffic?

What you should do from here is write emails to various departments of the ISPs including proof of more legitimate uses than stealing things and video games. Tech supports just assume everyone wants to steal stuff and when they hear anything about "game" they automatically shutdown. Providing real proof of limitations becoming a hindrance to other departments could work though.

(Anyone remember when all of a sudden no one on comcast could connect to the game but calling tech support was useless because as soon as they heard anything about a game not working they pretty much hung up on you?)

Edited, Sep 16th 2010 4:36pm by windexy
#33 Sep 16 2010 at 3:32 PM Rating: Excellent
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pixelpop wrote:
Quote:

Hmm... maybe being a network admin jades me in that I don't see how this is any of SE's concern. Seems like it would make more sense to send an email to your ISP letting them know that more businesses are making more products available online and that their (ISP) limits are starting to pose problems.


its not that his ISP or interwebs company is just being on the rag, its almost illegal in some euro countries to even use p2p downloading at all. Britain i know has very strict rules on p2p (have family there), and so if a game company decides to release a euro version of a game, wouldnt you make it so euro people can download it?


Europeans? In -MY- FFXIV?
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#34 Sep 16 2010 at 3:35 PM Rating: Good
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I have contacted my ISP (Virgin Media) in the past regarding caps on perfectly legal usage, but the answer is always the same. 'Save some internet for your neighbours you HOG!' >>; I even got a warning letter once.

and LOL @ Picky. Yes us europeans will invade FFXIV mwahahahaaa
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#35 Sep 16 2010 at 3:37 PM Rating: Good
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so this only applies to p2p? How much of a limit is there on http or ftp traffic? Or is it all just the same?

Edited, Sep 16th 2010 4:37pm by windexy
#36 Sep 16 2010 at 3:38 PM Rating: Good
Hopefully they'll do what Blizzard does (yes Blizzard can do things right people) and release their patches a part at a time. Starting like a week in advance, you get pieces periodically until the actual update day when the servers go down for some hours and when you update, low and behold, its been on your computer this whole time, except for maybe 100mb or so.
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#37 Sep 16 2010 at 3:40 PM Rating: Good
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@Windexy

P2P traffic is capped but still trickles along...
HTTP and other casual sources are dependant on the individual ISP, but with Virgin Media who are oddly one of the more tolerant ones, a 10 or 20 meg connection gives you 4Gig per day, and a 50 meg connection gives you 6Gig per day. After these usages the internet is firstly capped at 10% of the original speed, or if its a regular thing you get sent warning letters or cut off completely but you still have to pay because of the contract.
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#38 Sep 16 2010 at 3:41 PM Rating: Decent
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I spent all that effort trying to make sure I had 15GB free - per the game requirements and now I find out I need 22GB!! My poor lil 40GB SSD is gonna choke.
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#39 Sep 16 2010 at 3:45 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
@Windexy

P2P traffic is capped but still trickles along...
HTTP and other casual sources are dependant on the individual ISP, but with Virgin Media who are oddly one of the more tolerant ones, a 10 or 20 meg connection gives you 4Gig per day, and a 50 meg connection gives you 6Gig per day. After these usages the internet is firstly capped at 10% of the original speed, or if its a regular thing you get sent warning letters or cut off completely but you still have to pay because of the contract.


I'm sure some fan site will have something put on on mega-upload or something. If there's not by the time I get it downloaded I'll start uploading it to a webserver and hook ya up.
#40 Sep 16 2010 at 3:48 PM Rating: Excellent
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Reebie wrote:
I have contacted my ISP (Virgin Media) in the past regarding caps on perfectly legal usage, but the answer is always the same. 'Save some internet for your neighbours you HOG!' >>; I even got a warning letter once.

and LOL @ Picky. Yes us europeans will invade FFXIV mwahahahaaa


I totally get that bandwidth costs money, and beyond a certain point, the tubes get clogged and it becomes unprofitable (which is why AT&T doesn't like to offer unlimited plans for iPhones; all the ******* hipsters destroyed their network uploading videos of hacky sack), but I always find it funny when ISPs refer to "the Internet" as a limited commodity; as if it's going to run out or something.

True story: ISPs worldwide would LOVE to go back to the 90s where people paid for hours of usage or for data. Even cell phone plans are very heavily data-based, because bandwidth costs them money, and if you're using up "too much", then you become unprofitable. You're just a fat guy at the buffet of the Internet.

The only reason that home lines are still unlimited is because if any one company were to try to limit their users usage or charge for data plans, all of their customers would just instantly bail on them for someone else. In an ideal scenario (for ISPs), the ISPs would ALL change over to "pay as you go" plans and bill you based on usage, not unlike your local gas/electric/water utilities do, but if they were to ALL change at once, they run the risk of coming under siege for price fixing, or possibly even becoming a government-regulated utility.

Mark my words though, if ISPs could charge you usage fees instead of flat rates on your bandwidth, they'd do it in a heartbeat.

The only reason that UK ISPs have "fair use limits" is because -everyone has the limits. If any one ISP suddenly didn't have those limits any more, they could expect a HUGE influx of customers (and also a huge increase in bandwidth costs).
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#41 Sep 16 2010 at 3:49 PM Rating: Good
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Thanks Windexy that may save alot of people's heads :)

Though I'm feeling better about the updates since the SE e-mail anyway. I'm happy that they're sympathizing with us.
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#42 Sep 16 2010 at 3:50 PM Rating: Excellent
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NayliaMR wrote:
I spent all that effort trying to make sure I had 15GB free - per the game requirements and now I find out I need 22GB!! My poor lil 40GB SSD is gonna choke.


Don't forget expansions. I could see XIV hitting 40 GB on their second expansion.
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#43 Sep 16 2010 at 3:57 PM Rating: Good
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Did you know? ;)


BT (British Telecommunications) is the worlds oldest telecommunications company. It dates back to 1846.

Blah, blah, blah. Some history

Anyway, we are still using some of that old network. Granted they are trying to provide optical fibre and whatnot, but that will take a few years to cover the country.

It seems the UK, once the leader in telecommunications, is now trying to catch up with many countries in the world.

#44 Sep 16 2010 at 4:02 PM Rating: Good
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you're pretty much right there scotchio :) though I am in a fully fibre-optic area from exchange to door, I am still bound by the same rules of those who aren't.

there is actualy just one ISP that claims to not cap usage, and has a far better fair usage policy, AND shorter contracts. so whats the catch...? massive installation costs. ^^: which for me and most other young people, doesn't work out cost effective because we move house too often.

edit: for those who want to look into it: https://www.bethere.co.uk/web/beportal/homepage

Edited, Sep 16th 2010 6:03pm by Reebie
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#45 Sep 16 2010 at 4:06 PM Rating: Good
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Mikhalia beat me to it, but it bears repeating

God help the other UK ISP's if a start-up comes in and offers unlimited use

btw on a totally unrelated note, how much capital do you folks think it would take to start up an ISP in (totally picking a country at random here) the U.K.?
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#46 Sep 16 2010 at 4:11 PM Rating: Decent
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it could take up to a billion LemmingKing :(

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Branson <--- owner of Virgin Media is worth 2.6B in pounds or 3.9B in USD
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#47 Sep 16 2010 at 4:12 PM Rating: Good
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LemmingKingXXX wrote:
Mikhalia beat me to it, but it bears repeating

God help the other UK ISP's if a start-up comes in and offers unlimited use

btw on a totally unrelated note, how much capital do you folks think it would take to start up an ISP in (totally picking a country at random here) the U.K.?


There are unlimited options in the the UK, they are just often more expensive and still restrict P2P.

Edit: Actually, thats just to my knowledge. There maybe other options I haven't found that have no P2P restrictions.

Edited, Sep 16th 2010 6:15pm by scotchio
#48 Sep 16 2010 at 5:09 PM Rating: Excellent
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Just a quick comparison of a couple games I have installed right now.

Crysis - 6.24GB = 1,952 files 94 folders

Far Cry 2 - 3.18GB = 64 files, 17 folders

Metro2033 - 7.32GB = 175 files, 3 folders

Runes of Magic(don't ask) - 13.8GB = 217 files, 34 folders

FFXIV beta - 8.91GB = 136,595 files, 19,235 folders O_O <-- who the **** came up with that file structure?
#49 Sep 16 2010 at 5:18 PM Rating: Good
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So does that mean when open beta is done, we should remove the client?
#50 Sep 16 2010 at 5:20 PM Rating: Decent
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I just dont see how it will be 22GB. I think that is a type. I maybe see 12GB. Hope im wrong cause that is bad *** if it is true.
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#51 Sep 16 2010 at 5:25 PM Rating: Excellent
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Suhee wrote:
I just dont see how it will be 22GB. I think that is a type. I maybe see 12GB. Hope im wrong cause that is bad *** if it is true.


Either this or they put in all the languages (and some extra voice overs/intro movie). All OB I have done, needed only a small patch to get into release, I doubt it will be different with FFXIV. But then again, it is SE, they have a habit of doing it differently :)
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