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The idenity crisis that faces FFXIVFollow

#1 Sep 16 2010 at 8:41 PM Rating: Decent
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Hello I haven't posted on these forums before and i have to say they have been a great source of information.

However as i have read through threads and seen comments on both the EU beta forums and around the web. It seems to me that FFXIV while being highly anticipated faces a huge crisis concerning what people think the game is and should be.

Here's what i mean by this.

People approaching FFXIV appear to come from 3 distinct schools of thought.

1. The world of warcraft idealist: while many of us have enjoyed Wow at some point or another. This ex or current wow player believes firmly that WoW is the pinicale of MMO gaming. While this may have some truth to it. This wow player believes WoW systems are the only workable standard for mmo. Failure to implent things like

The same UI
The same class system
The same marketing system
THe same questing system
The same icons above merchants and quest givers heads
The same combat style.
The same guild system

Equal this game to being a total failure. This crowd should not be underestimated For they are often the most vocal. Games like AoC, Warhammer online ,global agenda and to some extent champions online have all had developers having to cave in to this crowd. Oddly enough This is an interesting time for this crowd. As you all know catalsym is being realeased soon. So more often than not this crowd is just playing this game as something pretty until cata comes out. But make no mistake they will never ever accept this game.

2. The Trinity (reasonable Ex FFXI players, misc players and reasonable ex Wow players)

These gamers have come into FFXIV for the solo purpose of seeing or hoping this is a good game. That is the most important thing to them. Not if this is wow or FFXI just that this game actually is fun and entertaining. They voice their opinion on key issues that bother them but are also willing to be contructive if the cause calls for it. They too have their bais either way but notably they are just bored of the old gen mmos and are looking for a decent new home. Mostly because there hasn't been a decent mmo since wow and ffxi.

So they know that really the mmo market really needs another option other than wow.

If this game is bad some ff fans will stay but most will leave because other attempts at good mmos are coming out soon. SE has to aim to keep these gamers.

3. The FFXI Junkies

These gamers are split into 2 groups. 1 of these groups i truely sympathise with. the other is very very angry for a very fimilar reason.

3a. The raging veretran: This gamer is either a long time ffxi player or just quit recently. However he does want to play this new final fantasy but like the WoW idealist he thinks Every thing about Ffxi was the greatest invention since sliced bread. For much the same reasons as the wow idealist. he truley believes that yeah FFXIV fails completely cos it's not FFXI with better graphics.

He's annoyed cos you don't have to spend 6 hours camping a HNM
He's annoyed cos everything just isn't as grind intensive.
He's annoyed cos some of the classes in FFXI aren't in this one which some how makes everything about this game bad.

Again with this player FFXIV never stood a chance.

Now the next version of the FFXI junky i truley empathise with.

3b. The rapture victims.

As anyone will tell you. Once FFXIV comes out there will be a huge flood of ex and current ffxi players moving over to FFXIV. It's just what's going to happen. This type of gamer however for what ever valid reason he may have does not wish to leave ffxi. while this is fine he or she will have to suffer the reality that as the rapture occurs less and less players will turn up in ffxi. which is already seeing a reduction in size. This will possibly mean server merges and what not. Now SE has promised to keep ffxi going as long as players play it but the question most always be in the back of their mind. how long is that going to be? what i mean is the end is in sight and naturally they will take their anger out on the game that caused it.

It should be noted that Rapture victims can often sound like the raging verteran but truly are not and just love ffxi a **** of alot.

Anyway that's my take on how things stand at the moment and like everyone else out there i am excited about realease and will see what's in store for the furture of the game.



Edited, Sep 16th 2010 10:46pm by zenophage

Edited, Sep 16th 2010 11:13pm by zenophage

Edited, Sep 16th 2010 11:14pm by zenophage

Edited, Sep 16th 2010 11:14pm by zenophage
#2 Sep 16 2010 at 8:45 PM Rating: Decent
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I dont see it that way. Sorry...
#3 Sep 16 2010 at 8:52 PM Rating: Excellent
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I guess I'd have to consider myself as your #2 category. What I don't get is the topic of this post. FFXIV needs subscribers? We know this already. If you're asking what type of player will enjoy this long term? I suspect mostly the FFXI crowd will. Of course some FFXI players will dislike it, and gamers from other MMOs might end up liking it.
#4 Sep 16 2010 at 8:54 PM Rating: Decent
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I don't have a lot of MAJOR input to that... but I agree to some of it, disagree with some of it.

Either way it's well thought out. And mostly true to be honest.
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#5 Sep 16 2010 at 8:55 PM Rating: Decent
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The point i had in mind was not that FFXIV needs subcribers but was FFXIV has 2 types of people who post and flame on these boards how bad this game is but really will never like this game not matter what SE does.
#6 Sep 16 2010 at 8:57 PM Rating: Excellent
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I find myself grossly unrepresented in this thread!!!
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#7 Sep 16 2010 at 9:04 PM Rating: Good
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Most of the flaming starts when a group #2 member state a somewhat neutral idea/hope. I see group #2 ppl as victims, most of them are neutral with the mentality of "let get it a try and judge how the actual thing is" or "Thing could change for better or worst" but when they state their opinion in this forum they are going to get shot by the ppl in group #1 and #3a... and the flame warring starts.

While the neutral guy walks out of the room... his casual comment/opinion had started a war. Trolling on the other hand is something entirely different.
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#8 Sep 16 2010 at 9:07 PM Rating: Good
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zenophage wrote:
1. The world of warcraft idealist: while many of us have enjoyed Wow at some point or another. This ex or current wow player believes firmly that WoW is the pinicale of MMO gaming. While this may have some truth to it. This wow player believes WoW systems are the only workable standard for mmo.


They can go **** themselves. Not because they're a WoW player, but because they're expecting a new game to look, feel, and behave EXACTLY LIKE an existing game. If there's already a game that provided this look and feel then there is no real market for a new one. The people who want every other game to feel and look like WoW usually only play for 2-3 months, tops, before they realize that WoW looks a lot more like WoW than anything that isn't WoW does, and they go back to it anyway.

They'll never be happy in XIV, and I'm 100% fine with that, although I'm sure I'm going to have to hear them whining in game until they leave.

zenophage wrote:
2. The Trinity (reasonable Ex FFXI players, misc players and reasonable ex Wow players)

These gamers have come into FFXIV for the solo purpose of seeing or hoping this is a good game. That is the most important thing to them. Not if this is wow or FFXI just that this game actually is fun and entertaining. They voice their opinion on key issues that bother them but are also willing to be contructive if the cause calls for it. They too have their bais either way but notably they are just bored of the old gen mmos and are looking for a decent new home. Mostly because there hasn't been a decent mmo since wow and ffxi.


You -do- know there are other MMORPGs besides FFXI and WoW, right? If people are looking for something new, regardless of their other games, or if this is their first, then I hope that they find it in Eorzea.

zenophage wrote:
3. The FFXI Junkies


FFXIV isn't FFXI. In some respects I wish it was and in other respects I'm glad it's not, but it isn't. I'd love to see some FFXI-2, but as I said about WoW, if you're coming to FFXIV looking for FFXI, you're not going to find it. Players with this mindset will either have to adapt to XIV or will end up going back to XI like the first group will.
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#9 Sep 16 2010 at 9:18 PM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
FFXIV isn't FFXI. In some respects I wish it was and in other respects I'm glad it's not, but it isn't. I'd love to see some FFXI-2, but as I said about WoW, if you're coming to FFXIV looking for FFXI, you're not going to find it. Players with this mindset will either have to adapt to XIV or will end up going back to XI like the first group will.


From the sound of it though, as much as many players loved FF11, they may adapt to FF14 regardless if they think 11 was better or not. Why? Because they get something new to do. I have already heard of a ton of people that are so bored of 11 that they don't play anymore even though there is a new expansion.

I truly hope everything I just said is absolutely wrong though and players that find out 14 isn't for them, go back to 11. And if that happens, maybe SE can look into some other types of updates for the games besides just expansions. (No this does not mean graphically update it to look just like 14. Good lord please no. Not yet at least.)
#10 Sep 16 2010 at 9:24 PM Rating: Excellent
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Icare wrote:
And if that happens, maybe SE can look into some other types of updates for the games besides just expansions. (No this does not mean graphically update it to look just like 14. Good lord please no. Not yet at least.)


Unless you're on a PS2, and setting aside for a moment that it's a colossal waste of resources to do so, what's wrong with that?

I mean, yeah, FFXI looks fine. But I don't see a -problem- with it looking better.

Edited, Sep 16th 2010 11:25pm by Mikhalia
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#11 Sep 16 2010 at 10:52 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Unless you're on a PS2, and setting aside for a moment that it's a colossal waste of resources to do so, what's wrong with that?

I mean, yeah, FFXI looks fine. But I don't see a -problem- with it looking better.


Mainly the fact that it would be a huge waste of time to do so. And for some reason, I didn't even think about how it would affect the PS2/Xbox players. Granted, the game does need a...bit of an update on graphics, it really isn't fair to those that still play on the consoles. At least not until they stop making any PS2s anymore and the system starts slowly dieing. Not sure if the game will make it that far though.


Also, I'm probably the one of the few that usually doesn't care as much about graphics as I do gameplay. Even if my computer can handle it at max settings, I put it really low just so I ensure I have no lag at almost any point whatsoever. But I have to admit, a tiny change in graphics for 11 would be nice. I just don't need it to fly through the roof all at once.
#12 Sep 16 2010 at 10:59 PM Rating: Excellent
FFXI had an auction house, and nearly any modern game has a much better UI with drag and drop interface for instance. Neither of those make someone 'wish it was exactly like WoW'. That's silly. Heck, as far back as Final Fantasy 6, final fantasy has used auction houses. ;)
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#13 Sep 16 2010 at 11:30 PM Rating: Decent
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The only UI I miss from wow is the fact I could right click vendor things and not go through a 10 minute process to vendor when returning to town.

#14 Sep 16 2010 at 11:37 PM Rating: Decent
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digitalcraft, Goblin in Disguise wrote:
FFXI had an auction house, and nearly any modern game has a much better UI with drag and drop interface for instance. Neither of those make someone 'wish it was exactly like WoW'. That's silly. Heck, as far back as Final Fantasy 6, final fantasy has used auction houses. ;)



It's funny the people who wish it was exacatly like WoW wish it was exactly like it for many reasons as i have listed. some for all those reasons and some for just a few but fundamentaly they do wish knownly or unknownly that this was WoW and this will remain their unshakable problem with the game
#15 Sep 16 2010 at 11:41 PM Rating: Excellent
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zenophage wrote:
digitalcraft, Goblin in Disguise wrote:
FFXI had an auction house, and nearly any modern game has a much better UI with drag and drop interface for instance. Neither of those make someone 'wish it was exactly like WoW'. That's silly. Heck, as far back as Final Fantasy 6, final fantasy has used auction houses. ;)



It's funny the people who wish it was exacatly like WoW wish it was exactly like it for many reasons as i have listed. some for all those reasons and some for just a few but fundamentaly they do wish knownly or unknownly that this was WoW and this will remain their unshakable problem with the game


If I want a drag and drop interface for my ability bars that means I want the game to be WoW?
If I want a party frame I can click for the purposes of targeting that means I want the game to be WoW?
If I want my mouse controls to be a good way to control my character and not just this alien device hanging obscenely off my USB port.. that means I want the game to be WoW?

How interesting
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#16 Sep 16 2010 at 11:50 PM Rating: Default
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Archmage Callinon wrote:
zenophage wrote:
digitalcraft, Goblin in Disguise wrote:
FFXI had an auction house, and nearly any modern game has a much better UI with drag and drop interface for instance. Neither of those make someone 'wish it was exactly like WoW'. That's silly. Heck, as far back as Final Fantasy 6, final fantasy has used auction houses. ;)



It's funny the people who wish it was exacatly like WoW wish it was exactly like it for many reasons as i have listed. some for all those reasons and some for just a few but fundamentaly they do wish knownly or unknownly that this was WoW and this will remain their unshakable problem with the game


If I want a drag and drop interface for my ability bars that means I want the game to be WoW?
If I want a party frame I can click for the purposes of targeting that means I want the game to be WoW?
If I want my mouse controls to be a good way to control my character and not just this alien device hanging obscenely off my USB port.. that means I want the game to be WoW?

How interesting


The questions you should be asking are not if i want . But why do i want. let's look at this carefully

1. If I want a drag and drop interface
The purpose of what you are asking for is to put abilties on your bar so you can use them. There is 1 way to do this in FFXIV. which requires just one press of a button. no drag and drop just one press. it's called setting up marcos. This is actually quicker and easier than Drag and drop. But that won't matter. It's just not drag and drop

2. If i want a party frame i can click on for the purposes of targeting
again you know with marcos you can set buttons. Not even click frames. you can hotkey ur party member by using /target <p1-14>
Again this is easier but the poster doesn't want to use it cos it's not party frame. another system from WoW (or perhaps more accurately the ever quest model of mmos)

3. The gamepad issue.
Heavens for bid. I have to play with the game pad. ohhhh no!!!!. it's easy it's been used for years and can be learnt pretty easily. not to mention SE is implementing a hard ware mouse. Not to mention Alot of FF fans are console gamers since most ff have come out on consoles.

yes i do believe you want this game to be just like Wow

Edited, Sep 17th 2010 1:52am by zenophage

Edited, Sep 17th 2010 1:57am by zenophage
#17 Sep 16 2010 at 11:59 PM Rating: Good
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zenophage wrote:

The questions you should be asking are not if i want . But why do i want. let's look at this carefully

1. If I want a drag and drop interface
The purpose of what you are asking for is to put abilties on your bar so you can use them. There is 1 way to do this in FFXIV. which requires just one press of a button. no drag and drop just one press. it's called setting up marcos. This is actually quicker and easier than Drag and drop. But that won't matter. It's just not drag and drop

2. If i want a party frame i can click on for the purposes of targeting
again you know with marcos you can set buttons. Not even click frames. you can hotkey ur party member by using /target <p1-14>
Again this is easier but the poster doesn't want to use it cos it's not party frame. another system from WoW (or perhaps more accurately the ever quest model of mmos)

3. The gamepad issue.
Heavens for bid. I have to play with the game pad. ohhhh no!!!!. it's easy it's been used for years and can learnt pretty easily. not to mention SE is implementing a hard ware mouse. Not to mention Alot of FF fans are console gamers since most ff have come out on consoles.

yes i do believe you want this game to be just like Wow

Edited, Sep 17th 2010 1:52am by zenophage


Interesting... I'll address these point-by-point

1: You're absolutely right, macros CAN do this.. However macros are limited to 10 lines, so at higher levels you're using multiple macros to set up a single job's abilities (and probably traits too). This problem can actually be solved by having ability setups saved between classes so that when you switch, no additional setup is required. The manual entry of abilities and traits is rather tedious and is another example of over-complication of the UI for no real reason other than someone thought it was fun to do that (see also: NPC vendors)

2: Setting up 14 macros specifically to target my party members sounds like a MONSTROUS waste of buttons to me when a simple interface to just click them would offer a ton of time saved tab-targeting them as well as precision in not having to futz around with which number on the list that person happens to be which your solution would encounter.

3: PC game... mouse and keyboard are the default control set for that system. While I appreciate that Square is madly in love with using a gamepad for everything, it is impractical and arrogant to require PC players to use one just to get decent controls. Good keyboard and mouse controls are not hard.. and if they ARE hard, allow them to be remapped by someone who knows how to make them not hard anymore.

I appreciate your responses but take a step back for a moment and look at what you're doing. I've pointed out three basic interface design choices that WoW has implemented (btw they're not the only ones, nor even the first ones to implement these) and you've decided that rather than adopting good user interface design, it's more important to accuse me of wanting this game to be like the game you've decided embodies all the evil in the world.
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#18 Sep 17 2010 at 12:05 AM Rating: Good
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zenophage wrote:

3. The gamepad issue.
Heavens for bid Gods Forfend. I have to play with the game pad. ohhhh no!!!!. it's easy it's been used for years and can be learnt pretty easily. not to mention SE is implementing a hard ware mouse. Not to mention Alot of FF fans are console gamers since most ff have come out on consoles.


FTFY

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#19 Sep 17 2010 at 12:16 AM Rating: Decent
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Archmage Callinon wrote:


Interesting... I'll address these point-by-point

1: You're absolutely right, macros CAN do this.. However macros are limited to 10 lines, so at higher levels you're using multiple macros to set up a single job's abilities (and probably traits too). This problem can actually be solved by having ability setups saved between classes so that when you switch, no additional setup is required. The manual entry of abilities and traits is rather tedious and is another example of over-complication of the UI for no real reason other than someone thought it was fun to do that (see also: NPC vendors)

2: Setting up 14 macros specifically to target my party members sounds like a MONSTROUS waste of buttons to me when a simple interface to just click them would offer a ton of time saved tab-targeting them as well as precision in not having to futz around with which number on the list that person happens to be which your solution would encounter.

3: PC game... mouse and keyboard are the default control set for that system. While I appreciate that Square is madly in love with using a gamepad for everything, it is impractical and arrogant to require PC players to use one just to get decent controls. Good keyboard and mouse controls are not hard.. and if they ARE hard, allow them to be remapped by someone who knows how to make them not hard anymore.

I appreciate your responses but take a step back for a moment and look at what you're doing. I've pointed out three basic interface design choices that WoW has implemented (btw they're not the only ones, nor even the first ones to implement these) and you've decided that rather than adopting good user interface design, it's more important to accuse me of wanting this game to be like the game you've decided embodies all the evil in the world.


I accept where you are coming from. However i would like to point out some things in ur logic.

1a. There are only so many actions you can put on your action Bar at higher levels the actions are sure to cost more action points reducing the number of moves you can put on your bar anyway. So Marcos WILL be able to handle the number of ablities you can use.

1b. Yes the manual input of marcos is tedious. Can i point out that most Wow players did take time to manually input marcos. Not only that you have to do so very seldomly. And spend most of your time benefiting from having set them up. In fact it's safe to say that once people reach high level and sort out their game. They will hardly ever need to change marcos. Simply put if you do play FFXIV you will spend about 0.01% of your time making marcos and about 99.9% enjoying the benefits of them. this is not just for FFXIV but for every Game that uses intelligent marcos.

2. Really. come on now :). you know that if you are in a group of 15 you won't be the only person healing. Or you know the fact that healers are Aoe. greatly reducing the number of people you truly need to target. If you were been honest with yourself you know that when things settle down in groups of 15 healers will probably be assinged to 6 or 5 at a time. And the game can't be blamed for bad grouping where one healer has to heal 15 people. And more over. Even if that was the case. clever postioning (which this game is all about) and good targeting from the healer + aoe will solve this.

3. Times have really changed and when you speak of modern gaming i suggest you keep up with it ur self. 4 recent mmos or upcoming mmos, champions online, Dc universie onlie, global agenda, tera online and blade and soul all have recommended gamepad play.

Times are changing. tech is a fast paced industry. And SE knows that. They have in no way ignored the keyboard users and what ever they do nothing will sink in. They have said they are adding a hardware mouse which you guys have requested. and they have insisted they will contiune to improve the U.I which just isn't earth shatteringly bad and certainly not 10mins as stated some where in these threads.
When you say SE refust to adopt good user interface design. Have you considered that many people are able to cope with the design. Have you considered that there is a whole game to focus on not just the U.I.

You have a vast game here and wow idealists stumble on the U.I and can't get up. It's like tripping on a pebble

on a final note. Why do you think i think Wow embodies all the evil in the world. I like wow. it's a great game. it's old and i'm moving on simple.

Edited, Sep 17th 2010 2:19am by zenophage

Edited, Sep 17th 2010 2:22am by zenophage

Edited, Sep 17th 2010 2:22am by zenophage
#20 Sep 17 2010 at 12:26 AM Rating: Excellent
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zenophage wrote:

I accept where you are coming from. However i would like to point out some things in ur logic.

1a. There are only so many actions you can put on your action Bar at higher levels the actions are sure to cost more action points reducing the number of moves you can put on your bar anyway. So Marcos WILL be able to handle the number of ablities you can use.

1b. Yes the manual input of marcos is tedious. Can i point out that most Wow players did take time to manually input marcos. Not only that you have to do so very seldomly. And spend most of your time benefiting from having set them up. In fact it's safe to say that once people reach high level and sort out their game. They will hardly ever need to change marcos. Simply put if you do play FFXIV you will spend about 0.01% of your time making marcos and about 99.9% enjoying the benefits of them. this is not just for FFXIV but for every Game that uses intelligent marcos.

2. Really. come on now :). you know that if you are in a group of 15 you won't be the only person healing. Or you know the fact that healers are Aoe. greatly reducing the number of people you truly need to target. If you were been honest with yourself you know that when things settle down in groups of 15 healers will probably be assinged to 6 or 5 at a time. And the game can't be blamed for bad grouping where one healer has to heal 15 people. And more over. Even if that was the case. clever postioning (which this game is all about) and good targeting from the healer + aoe will solve this.

3. Times have really changed and when you speak of modern gaming i suggest you keep up with it ur self. 4 recent mmos or upcoming mmos, champions online, Dc universie onlie, global agenda, tera online and blade and soul all have recommended gamepad play.

Times are changing. tech is a fast paced industry. And SE knows that. They have in no way ignored the keyboard users and what ever they do nothing will sink in. They have said they are adding a hardware mouse which you guys have requested. and they have insisted they will contiune to improve the U.I which just isn't earth shatteringly bad and certainly not 10mins as stated some where in these threads.


on a final note. Why do you think i think Wow embodies all the evil in the world. I like wow. it's a great game. it's old and i'm moving on simple.

Edited, Sep 17th 2010 2:19am by zenophage


1a: If I never have to put more than 10 things on my action bars... why have three action bars?
1b: You don't macro everything in WoW, you macro those things that need special attention. (well ok I guess SOME people may have macroed everything, but it probably wasn't necessary)

2: Don't ever heal... seriously.

3: Flight simulators have recommended setups for joysticks. Does that mean the keyboard and mouse controls can go ahead and be completely horrible? Nope. I do appreciate that they're adding hardware mouse support, especially since it was in FFXI and there's no reason not to.

Technology IS a fast-paced field, though some of this game's architecture seems to think it's still in 1996 (see massive file structure of DOOOOOOM)

Quote:
They have in no way ignored the keyboard users and what ever they do nothing will sink in


I'm afraid I don't know what this means.

As for WoW... there's just something in the tone of your posts that leads me to believe you view it in a negative light.

Edited, Sep 17th 2010 1:27am by Callinon
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#21 Sep 17 2010 at 12:38 AM Rating: Decent
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Archmage Callinon wrote:


1a: If I never have to put more than 10 things on my action bars... why have three action bars?
1b: You don't macro everything in WoW, you macro those things that need special attention. (well ok I guess SOME people may have macroed everything, but it probably wasn't necessary)

2: Don't ever heal... seriously.

3: Flight simulators have recommended setups for joysticks. Does that mean the keyboard and mouse controls can go ahead and be completely horrible? Nope. I do appreciate that they're adding hardware mouse support, especially since it was in FFXI and there's no reason not to.

Technology IS a fast-paced field, though some of this game's architecture seems to think it's still in 1996 (see massive file structure of DOOOOOOM)

Quote:
They have in no way ignored the keyboard users and what ever they do nothing will sink in


I'm afraid I don't know what this means.

As for WoW... there's just something in the tone of your posts that leads me to believe you view it in a negative light.

Edited, Sep 17th 2010 1:27am by Callinon


1a. notice that i said marcos will be able to handle the transition meaning use of marcos will allow smooth transition i never said a limit of 10, that's a number you have just added. Plus think of this press 3 buttons to change 30 moves or drag and drop each one. you do the math.

1b. i never said you marco everything in Wow and Wow was probably less marco intensive but you don't marco everything here either. In fact in WoW you were marcoing moves in order to automate patterns and cycles you wanted to use. Here you are actually only using it to change gear and moves. Also you most know that 99% of decent players used marcos alot in wow.

2. I played FFXI for years. no common sense linkshell will ask 1 healer to take 15 people on and think things will be smooth for a big raid boss. Plus SE clearly stated most scenerios will be able to be soloed or in a small group meaning in truth most of the times you'll have to target 5 or 6 same as you would in a large raid that has common sense. again your agrument doesn't hold.

3. while i appericate the keyboard and mouse issue and i too agree that it should be fixed for keyboard users. i totally am for that and believe it should be done. However the main issue seemed to have been the software mouse. That is changing so keyboard users have some thing great to look forward too.

As for wow. no. there is nothing in the tone of my posts that says i view it in a negative light.

Wow was my home for 4 years. i loved every minute of it and some times wish i could be back. But i have been there and done that. that is all

Edited, Sep 17th 2010 2:39am by zenophage

Edited, Sep 17th 2010 2:40am by zenophage
#22 Sep 17 2010 at 12:54 AM Rating: Good
***
3,438 posts
Quote:
2. I played FFXI for years. no common sense linkshell will ask 1 healer to take 15 people on and think things will be smooth for a big raid boss. Plus SE clearly stated most scenerios will be able to be soloed or in a small group meaning in truth most of the times you'll have to target 5 or 6 same as you would in a large raid that has common sense. again your agrument doesn't hold.


My comment had more to do with the fact that people tend to develop tunnel vision if you give them a specific assignment. For instance if you have an FFXI alliance (18 people) and each party of 6 has one healer that's "assigned" to that party they may not notice or react to another party's member dying... maybe that party's healer was incapacitated somehow, maybe they d/c'd... maybe they saw something shiny. I've saved more than one situation by being able to pay attention to the entire situation and adjust my actions accordingly (situational awareness is the common term for this).

Also I would be absolutely shocked if endgame scenarios were small group only. Besides the fact that it'd negate the need for companies, it'd also detract from the epic feel that a Final Fantasy game is supposed to evoke.

Quote:
As for wow. no. there is nothing in the tone of my posts that says i view it in a negative light.

Wow was my home for 4 years. i loved every minute of it and some times wish i could be back. But i have been there and done that. that is all


My mistake, I could very easily have read something in that wasn't there... that sort of thing happens a lot at 2am when you don't sleep well

Edited, Sep 17th 2010 1:55am by Callinon
____________________________
svlyons wrote:
If random outcomes aren't acceptable to you, then don't play with random people.
#23 Sep 17 2010 at 1:12 AM Rating: Good
zenophage wrote:
Quote:

If I want a drag and drop interface for my ability bars that means I want the game to be WoW?
If I want a party frame I can click for the purposes of targeting that means I want the game to be WoW?
If I want my mouse controls to be a good way to control my character and not just this alien device hanging obscenely off my USB port.. that means I want the game to be WoW?

How interesting


The questions you should be asking are not if i want . But why do i want. let's look at this carefully


If you're going to look at it carefully, look at it carefully. Here, let me demonstrate how ignorant you are help you.

Quote:
1. If I want a drag and drop interface
The purpose of what you are asking for is to put abilties on your bar so you can use them. There is 1 way to do this in FFXIV. which requires just one press of a button. no drag and drop just one press. it's called setting up marcos. This is actually quicker and easier than Drag and drop. But that won't matter. It's just not drag and drop


If you actually knew what you were talking about, you'd know that a drag and drop interface encompasses a great deal more than just setting up your action bars. It includes all aspects of inventory management, including equipping gear, transferring items to/from vendors, transferring gear to/from storage (XIV example: retainer). Set up properly, it bypasses the clunky mechanism of list menus and provides a superior, more intuitive option than scroll, confirm, confirm, scroll, confirm, confirm.

Quote:
2. If i want a party frame i can click on for the purposes of targeting
again you know with marcos you can set buttons. Not even click frames. you can hotkey ur party member by using /target <p1-14>
Again this is easier but the poster doesn't want to use it cos it's not party frame. another system from WoW (or perhaps more accurately the ever quest model of mmos)


What's wrong with a personal preference in that regard? Why do you have to be inflammatory and insist that the only reason someone likes the concept is because it came from another game? Are you able to distinguish between a concept and an entire game?

Quote:
3. The gamepad issue.
Heavens for bid. I have to play with the game pad. ohhhh no!!!!. it's easy it's been used for years and can be learnt pretty easily. not to mention SE is implementing a hard ware mouse. Not to mention Alot of FF fans are console gamers since most ff have come out on consoles.


And all but one mainstream MMO on the market today (XI) currently uses a keyboard/mouse interface because they're all on PC. If I want to play a console game, I'll buy a console. If I want to play a game on PC, I generally hope that the game's designer will offer an intuitive UI for the standard input devices in common usage for that platform and if they want to add gamepad support as an alternative, by all means.

Quote:
yes i do believe you want this game to be just like Wow


I do believe you're not intelligent enough to make that assertion, cos ur lack of logik end ur txtspk maks u out 2 b moar liek sum1 whod play WoW then sum1 who haz teh kredabilitee 2 tell ppl wut they shud or shudnt liek.

k?
#24 Sep 17 2010 at 1:47 AM Rating: Default
Thief's Knife
*****
15,053 posts
zenophage wrote:

He's annoyed cos some of the classes in FFXI aren't in this one which some how makes everything about this game bad.


No THF does make this game bad.

Fact.
____________________________
Final Fantasy XI 12-14-11 Update wrote:
Adjust the resolution of menus.
The main screen resolution for "FINAL FANTASY XI" is dependent on the "Overlay Graphics Resolution" setting.
If the Overlay Graphics Resolution is set higher than the Menu Resolution, menus will be automatically resized.


I thought of it first:

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10&mid=130073657654872218#20
#25 Sep 17 2010 at 1:55 AM Rating: Decent
13 posts
The One and Only Aurelius wrote:


The questions you should be asking are not if i want . But why do i want. let's look at this carefully

If you're going to look at it carefully, look at it carefully. Here, let me demonstrate how ignorant you are help you.

1.If you actually knew what you were talking about, you'd know that a drag and drop interface encompasses a great deal more than just setting up your action bars. It includes all aspects of inventory management, including equipping gear, transferring items to/from vendors, transferring gear to/from storage (XIV example: retainer). Set up properly, it bypasses the clunky mechanism of list menus and provides a superior, more intuitive option than scroll, confirm, confirm, scroll, confirm, confirm.



First of all ladies and gentlemen as mentioned before the Wow idealist is very vocal about his style of getting his point across and wants to make sure he is heard. He attempts to boltster his point of view by directly belittling you.

however all me to address this point.

It does not provide superioer control on all inventory management as discussed and the only part you have any credit on is on the shopping system and dealing with your retainer. Managing gear,actions,potions,and other field usable actions can be easily marcoed if you took the time to look and learn how to converse like a human. Alas you are a wow idealist after all. This is not to mention SE has continually improved the U.I and have announced further steamlineing in the shoping system. The retainer you speak off tends of be one of the few interactions in the day due to the fact that it's a storage unit and note the fact that this is the part they are going to be focusing their efforts on steamlining.

if you were honest with yourself you would know that while there is server lag with shoping from merchants it is in no way a utterly pain full experience like you seem to want to paint it out.

Quote:

What's wrong with a personal preference in that regard? Why do you have to be inflammatory and insist that the only reason someone likes the concept is because it came from another game? Are you able to distinguish between a concept and an entire game?


Inflammatory. Please read ur own post for examples of being inflammatory. I have stated that keyboard issues should be dealt with and that SE have been looking into this. However i most point out to you that you are the one unable to distingush between a concept and an entire game.

Wow was a phemonon is the mmo market. It made the industry attractive to many developers and players alike. As such players have request and developers have delivered similar systems to wow. In fact the last 5 years have been full of WoW clones. Many mmo developers wanting to make anything other the games based of the ever quest model have run into problems either from publishers wanting to satify the wow idealists or the wow idealist screaming so loud the developer caves in to him.

Ofc many developers just copied straight of wow like Allods online because the wow idealist if so pure in his unshakable belief.

so many concepts you see in other mmos actually come from WoW. From a developer and player side.
Quote:

And all but one mainstream MMO on the market today (XI) currently uses a keyboard/mouse interface because they're all on PC. If I want to play a console game, I'll buy a console. If I want to play a game on PC, I generally hope that the game's designer will offer an intuitive UI for the standard input devices in common usage for that platform and if they want to add gamepad support as an alternative, by all means.


no champions online uses gamepad too
no APB uses gamepad too
no tera online will use gamepad
no Dc universe online will use gamepad
no blade and soul will use gamepad

another point to consider that the current main stream mmos that really caught on. are at least 3 to 4 years old.

guild wars
Wow
ffxi
eve online
ever quest 2

are all a couple of years old. Alot of concolse gamers are coming into mmos and are gamers too. What's wrong with providing a game that suits them. Most FF fans are console gamers. What's wrong with SE reaching out to it's Core FF base not just the FFXI fans. (bare in mind that many ff fans didn't play xi and don't play mmos and SE has to bring them into the pot if this is going to be a good game). Who play on console.

Plus is the a law or some phyical reason preventing you from trying to enjoy the game with a game pad knowing fully well that it better played like that. sounds to me that you want a reason to hate the game. Anyone who truly wants to give the game a chance will either wait till launch for the hardware mouse and U.i streamlining which isn't that bad or that overwhelmed by ur drag and drop system.

I should have added this ladies and gentlemen the wow idealist doesn't know he is one. He knowledge of enjoyably mmo gaming is limited to what WoW tells him it is and the funny thing alot of the times he sees wow in so many games he's doesn't even know who's pulling his strings.
The rest of UR (noticed i used txt spch there!!! :P) rant i don't care about.



Edited, Sep 17th 2010 3:56am by zenophage

Edited, Sep 17th 2010 3:57am by zenophage
#26 Sep 17 2010 at 1:55 AM Rating: Decent
Lobivopis wrote:
zenophage wrote:

He's annoyed cos some of the classes in FFXI aren't in this one which some how makes everything about this game bad.


No THF does make this game bad.

Fact.


THF is a Gladiator with Pugilist abilities equipped. Gladiators are the ones that use swords and daggers. Pugilists are the ones that have all the THF-like abilities. But ya, whatever. Dunno how many times you needed to be told it wasn't going to be XI-2 that not having an XI archetype makes it a bad game as a "fact." As you were.
#27 Sep 17 2010 at 1:55 AM Rating: Default
Thief's Knife
*****
15,053 posts
Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
Icare wrote:
And if that happens, maybe SE can look into some other types of updates for the games besides just expansions. (No this does not mean graphically update it to look just like 14. Good lord please no. Not yet at least.)


Unless you're on a PS2, and setting aside for a moment that it's a colossal waste of resources to do so, what's wrong with that?


Considering how many mobs, textures and set pieces look like FFXI assets in HD it wouldn't be as hard or expensive as you seem to think.

I mean, there are trees outside Ul'Dah that look EXACTLY like the ones in Tahrongi Canyon sans the beehives. Almost all of the foliage there looks like Tahrongi/Meriphataud foliage in higher res and the terrain textures look the same too.

Doing an HD update to FFXI would be no more a "massive waste of resources" than the various HD updates of PS2 games that have been released on the PS3 are. Graphics updates extend the life of an MMO by making it more attractive to new players. EQ has done it, UO has done it, EVE Online has done it and Aion is going to do it soon.



Edited, Sep 17th 2010 5:00am by Lobivopis
____________________________
Final Fantasy XI 12-14-11 Update wrote:
Adjust the resolution of menus.
The main screen resolution for "FINAL FANTASY XI" is dependent on the "Overlay Graphics Resolution" setting.
If the Overlay Graphics Resolution is set higher than the Menu Resolution, menus will be automatically resized.


I thought of it first:

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10&mid=130073657654872218#20
#28 Sep 17 2010 at 2:01 AM Rating: Default
Thief's Knife
*****
15,053 posts
The One and Only Aurelius wrote:
Lobivopis wrote:
zenophage wrote:

He's annoyed cos some of the classes in FFXI aren't in this one which some how makes everything about this game bad.


No THF does make this game bad.

Fact.


THF is a Gladiator with Pugilist abilities equipped. Gladiators are the ones that use swords and daggers. Pugilists are the ones that have all the THF-like abilities. But ya, whatever. Dunno how many times you needed to be told it wasn't going to be XI-2 that not having an XI archetype makes it a bad game as a "fact." As you were.


I'm a career THF. No THF = no interest in FFXIV. Simple as that. For me, it makes it a bad game.
____________________________
Final Fantasy XI 12-14-11 Update wrote:
Adjust the resolution of menus.
The main screen resolution for "FINAL FANTASY XI" is dependent on the "Overlay Graphics Resolution" setting.
If the Overlay Graphics Resolution is set higher than the Menu Resolution, menus will be automatically resized.


I thought of it first:

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10&mid=130073657654872218#20
#29 Sep 17 2010 at 2:04 AM Rating: Default
Thief's Knife
*****
15,053 posts
Icare wrote:
And for some reason, I didn't even think about how it would affect the PS2/Xbox players. Granted, the game does need a...bit of an update on graphics, it really isn't fair to those that still play on the consoles. At least not until they stop making any PS2s anymore and the system starts slowly dieing. Not sure if the game will make it that far though


They haven't made harddrive capable PS2's for years, or PS2 harddrives for that matter. And Crystal Tools runs on the Xbox 360 so no problems there. Or if they wanted to use that Unreal 3 license they purchased when they made Last Remnant that runs on the 360 too.



Edited, Sep 17th 2010 5:13am by Lobivopis
____________________________
Final Fantasy XI 12-14-11 Update wrote:
Adjust the resolution of menus.
The main screen resolution for "FINAL FANTASY XI" is dependent on the "Overlay Graphics Resolution" setting.
If the Overlay Graphics Resolution is set higher than the Menu Resolution, menus will be automatically resized.


I thought of it first:

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10&mid=130073657654872218#20
#30 Sep 17 2010 at 2:20 AM Rating: Excellent
zenophage wrote:
First of all ladies and gentlemen as mentioned before the Wow idealist is very vocal about his style of getting his point across and want to make sure he is heard. He attempts to boltster his point of view by directly belittling you.


Nono, you belittle yourself by trying to come off informed when anyone who is actually informed can immediately spot just how uninformed you are. I just poke a little fun because it's entertaining and you make it too easy to pass up.

Quote:
It does not provide superioer control on all inventory management as discussed and the only part you have any credit on is on the shopping system and dealing with your retainer. Managing gear,actions,potions,and other field usable actions can be easily marcoed if you took the time to look and learn how to converse like a human. Alas you are a wow idealist after all. This is not to mention SE has continually improved the U.I and have announced further steamlineing in the shoping system. The retainer you speak off tends of be one of the few interactions in the day due to the fact that it's a storage unit and note the fact that this is the part they are going to be focusing their efforts on steamlining.


I'm not sure where you came up with the notion that conversing like a human and writing a macro were in any way related, but whatever.

You talk about macros like they're the end-all, be-all solution to all things interface. I'm here to tell you that they're not. Not everything warrants writing a macro. I'm sure you'll come up with some lame reason as to why the game would suffer if SE included both a drag and drop interface and a macro system (hint: most newer MMOs do exactly that).

Quote:
if you were honest with yourself you would know that while there is server lag with shoping from merchants it is in no way a utterly pain full experience like you seem to want to paint it out.


It absolutely is, especially selling to a merchant. Altogether too many steps involved and with no way to index our inventory exactly the way we want it (much less an intuitive way) it's clunky as ****.

Quote:
Inflammatory. Please read ur own post for examples of being inflammatory. I have stated that keyboard issues should be dealt with and that SE have been looking into this. However i most point out to you that you are the one unable to distingush between a concept and an entire game.


You're not in a position to point out much of anything to me at all, but by all means, do try.

Quote:
Wow was a phemonon is the mmo market. It made the industry attractive to many developers and players alike. As such players have request and developers have delivered similar systems to wow. In fact the last 5 years have been full of WoW clones. Many mmo developers wanting to make anything other the games based of the ever quest model have run into problems either from publishers wanting to satify the wow idealists or the wow idealist screaming so loud the developer caves in to him.


XI was built on the Everquest model, don't forget. There's actually more of Everquest in XI than there is Everquest in WoW.

Quote:
Ofc many developers just copied straight of wow like Allods online because the wow idealist if so pure in his unshakable belief.

so many concepts you see in other mmos actually come from WoW. From a developer and player side.


So many vehicles use round wheels. Why not oval wheels? Why does everyone always have to make round wheel clones?

(Hint: If it works, it works, and developing a crappy system simply for the sake of saying you did it different is a ridiculous reason. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. If you can't improve on it, copy it. That's how success builds on itself. That's how progress is made. Is every car you see on the street a Ford model 'T' because they all borrow heavily from the concepts that vehicle was based around? No. When a new car model is unveiled, do you have a mass of braindead numpties standing around screaming "MODEL T CLONE!! MODEL T CLONE!!"? No. I'd be entirely happy with SE if they could have taken the concept of a mainstream MMO UI and improved upon it, but they didn't. They took a giant sodding leap backwards and there was no reason for it.

Quote:
no champions online uses gamepad too
no APB uses gamepad too
no tera online will use gamepad
no Dc universe online will use gamepad
no blade and soul will use gamepad


And they all have a better keyboard/mouse interface than XIV, so with a mountain of mediocre games like the ones you just listed that can pull it off, what's SE's excuse?

Quote:
are all a couple of years old. Alot of concolse gamers are coming into mmos and are gamers too. What's wrong with providing a game that suits them. Most FF fans are console gamers. What's wrong with SE reaching out to it's Core FF base not just the FFXI fans. (bare in mind that many ff fans didn't play xi and don't play mmos and SE has to bring them into the pot if this is going to be a good game). Who play on console.


You've missed the point. I'm not surprised. I get the impression you miss a lot of points.

Quote:
Plus is the a law or some phyical reason preventing you from trying to enjoy the game with a game pad knowing fully well that it better played like that. sounds to me that you want a reason to hate the game. Anyone who truly wants to give the game a chance will either wait till launch for the hardware mouse and U.i streamlining which isn't that bad or that overwhelmed by ur drag and drop system.


Yes, there is a physical reason preventing me from playing the game with a gamepad. I don't own one, and I'm not going to buy one. I have a relatively expensive and comfortable wireless keyboard and mouse setup that I'm rather accustomed to.

Quote:
I should have added this ladies and gentlemen the wow idealist doesn't know he is one. He knowledge of enjoyably mmo gaming is limited to what WoW tells him it is and the funny thing alot of the times he sees wow in so many games he's doesn't even know who's pulling his strings.
The rest of UR (noticed i used txt spch there!!! :P) rant i don't care about.


If I was a WoW "idealist" (you're using the word wrong, by the way), I would still be playing it. I haven't played WoW since April. I enjoyed it for several years, Blizzard did a lot of things right with it, and then I stopped playing it.

I've also played LOTRO for a reasonable length of time. I suppose that makes me a LOTRO idealist. I also played FFXI for almost as long as I played WoW. So that makes me an FFXI idealist, too, based on your (horribly flawed) logic.

So when you're done pretending like you have a clue, by all means try to phrase a response. Until then, I'm trying to be a good sport and cut down somewhat on the prolonged ridicule of clueless people so I may or may not filter your drivel to see if you've figured out how to form a cogent argument. If not, you're just wasting your time replying.


Edited, Sep 17th 2010 1:22am by Aurelius

Edited, Sep 17th 2010 1:39am by Aurelius
#31 Sep 17 2010 at 2:59 AM Rating: Excellent
Scholar
*
178 posts
Why do so many people here have to hate on WoW, WoW doesnt hate on FF:
http://img833.imageshack.us/img833/3395/71757.jpg

I cant imagine the QQ if SE put some direct WoW reference in their game.

Anyway the reason most people prefer the WoW model for MMO UIs is because it is based on the interface for modern operating systems, drag and drop, icons, shortcut keys, its what made windows popular.
#32 Sep 17 2010 at 3:30 AM Rating: Default
13 posts
The One and Only Aurelius wrote:

Nono, you belittle yourself by trying to come off informed when anyone who is actually informed can immediately spot just how uninformed you are. I just poke a little fun because it's entertaining and you make it too easy to pass up.


Well in all honesty i wrote this out to express my opionion on the matter. I believe that i am actually informed and certainly have the right to express my opionions. not all of your views on the subject are entirely wrong but to the unbiased view you clearly demonstrate with much flare and vigour how much you are a wow idealist.

First of all you show the characteric foul mouthed combative stance the is indictive of your type.

Second you quit the game in april and have played the game for many years. in all honestly you fit perfectly into the catorgory i described.
why you may ask yourself. It's because like i said before your kind are often the most vocal and rude. But i will not just break this down into a flame contest i will address your issues.

Quote:

I'm not sure where you came up with the notion that conversing like a human and writing a macro were in any way related, but whatever.

You talk about macros like they're the end-all, be-all solution to all things interface. I'm here to tell you that they're not. Not everything warrants writing a macro. I'm sure you'll come up with some lame reason as to why the game would suffer if SE included both a drag and drop interface and a macro system (hint: most newer MMOs do exactly that).


notice that this WoW idealist can not really argue with you about what it is you actually said. I never said the U.I was the be all and end solution in fact the only reason i am open to this form of control system is i don't believe any system is the be all and end all system like this wow idealist seems to think. you are right not everything warrants writing a marco. But i ask you to use ur head a bit. What warrants writing a marco is determined by the needs and demands of playing any patircular game. Not all games are the same and as with any game there will need to a some adjustment and naturalising to the game. So what should answer that question is not you or me but the demands of the game. At present not everything in FFXV does warrant a marco i have stated that before. I haven't come up with any reason. you've just stated a mis assumption which seems to be your style of play.


Quote:

It absolutely is, especially selling to a merchant. Altogether too many steps involved and with no way to index our inventory exactly the way we want it (much less an intuitive way) it's clunky as ****.


I am a user and you are user. What we have displayed here is that people have different opionions on the matter. The only difference is that people like me are willing to accept that some people think the U.I is terrible and we encourage SE to fix it but they don't bother coming up here to say they think the U.I is good cos of hassle of having to deal with people like you who are the loudest and most rude. I will say this i am going my honest opionion on the experience i don't find it that bad. My opionion is just as valid and important as yours so do your self a life favour and get off your high horse.

Quote:

You're not in a position to point out much of anything to me at all, but by all means, do try.


Your over inflated ego oozes out from your every word. My friend many people can easily point out many things to you. It's not that hard.

Quote:

XI was built on the Everquest model, don't forget. There's actually more of Everquest in XI than there is Everquest in WoW.


you've missed the main point of the comment that you quoted further fueling my belief that your WoW rage really is blinding you to anything at the moment. i reccomend you take a cold shower.



Quote:

So many vehicles use round wheels. Why not oval wheels? Why does everyone always have to make round wheel clones?

(Hint: If it works, it works, and developing a crappy system simply for the sake of saying you did it different is a ridiculous reason. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. If you can't improve on it, copy it. That's how success builds on itself. That's how progress is made. Is every car you see on the street a Ford model 'T' because they all borrow heavily from the concepts that vehicle was based around? No. When a new car model is unveiled, do you have a mass of braindead numpties standing around screaming "MODEL T CLONE!! MODEL T CLONE!!"? No. I'd be entirely happy with SE if they could have taken the concept of a mainstream MMO UI and improved upon it, but they didn't. They took a giant sodding leap backwards and there was no reason for it.


Ladies and gentlemen this is proof hard evidence of my intial mission statement regarding how the wow idealist thinks. He's laid it out word for word his absolute belief in the wow systems and how it's the only way to go about things.

Let me explain. he decribes The wow model as the wheel. That's his central agrument here. the wheel is the fundamental building block for most if not all non orgainic vechiles in our history( Apart from boats ofc) . Really is Wow on part with the invention of the wheel. remember my saying about the ffxi junky who thinks ffxi is the best thing since sliced bread. Well this guy thinks Wow is the best thing since the invention of the wheel. This is excatly what i am talking about. right there. from the horse's mouth himself.

Quote:

And they all have a better keyboard/mouse interface than XIV, so with a mountain of mediocre games like the ones you just listed that can pull it off, what's SE's excuse?


Look how the poster is now lieing. Yes straight out lieing. 3 of those games have not been realeased. How the poster KNOWS they have better gamepad controls than FFXIV is beyond me.


Quote:

You've missed the point. I'm not surprised. I get the impression you miss a lot of points.


Very nice cop out for not actually saying anything usefull and just adding an extra bit of flame.

Quote:

Yes, there is a physical reason preventing me from playing the game with a gamepad. I don't own one, and I'm not going to buy one. I have a relatively expensive and comfortable wireless keyboard and mouse setup that I'm rather accustomed to.


That's not a phyical reason more of a choice you have made but in any case i respect your right not to buy a controller and SE has stated many times they are working on improving the keyboard controls to improve your experience. I would like to add that of all the things that can be wrong with an MMO the U.I is the easiest to adjust so why so many tears. (cry me a river!).


Quote:

If I was a WoW "idealist" (you're using the word wrong, by the way), I would still be playing it. I haven't played WoW since April. I enjoyed it for several years, Blizzard did a lot of things right with it, and then I stopped playing it.

I've also played LOTRO for a reasonable length of time. I suppose that makes me a LOTRO idealist. I also played FFXI for almost as long as I played WoW. So that makes me an FFXI idealist, too, based on your (horribly flawed) logic.

So when you're done pretending like you have a clue, by all means try to phrase a response. Until then, I'm trying to be a good sport and cut down somewhat on the prolonged ridicule of clueless people so I may or may not filter your drivel to see if you've figured out how to form a cogent argument. If not, you're just wasting your time replying.


again The wow Idealist doesn't have to read what you actually wrote. I actually said ex wow players are part of this. Which they have to be to be playing a new MMO. But doesn't matter.

Again by stating LOTRO you show you missed the fundamental note of my point. LOTRO was heavily based on The system Wow started. It's not about the game design is about the game model type you have.

Playing FFXI isn't a badge the makes you immune from being a wow idealist. All you needed to do was play it enough to be as combative and hostile about it as you are.
Edited, Sep 17th 2010 1:22am by Aurelius

Edited, Sep 17th 2010 1:39am by Aurelius [/quote]

Edited, Sep 17th 2010 5:31am by zenophage

Edited, Sep 17th 2010 5:32am by zenophage

Edited, Sep 17th 2010 5:34am by zenophage

Edited, Sep 17th 2010 5:35am by zenophage

Edited, Sep 17th 2010 5:36am by zenophage

Edited, Sep 17th 2010 5:37am by zenophage

Edited, Sep 17th 2010 5:39am by zenophage

Edited, Sep 17th 2010 6:07am by zenophage

Edited, Sep 17th 2010 6:08am by zenophage
#33 Sep 17 2010 at 12:38 PM Rating: Excellent
*****
11,539 posts
Let's derail this away from WoW for a moment. Let's pretend for a moment that WoW doesn't exist. Never made. Never happened. Ignore WoW's entire existence.

Archmage Callinon wrote:
I want a drag and drop interface for my ability bars?
I want a party frame I can click for the purposes of targeting
If I want my mouse controls to be a good way to control my character and not just this alien device hanging obscenely off my USB port


Dragon Age has these features.
Neverwinter Nights has these features.
Arcanum has these features.

So what's wrong with wanting these three perfectly reasonable features that exist in several other games, without bringing up "that game that doesn't exist"?
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#34 Sep 17 2010 at 1:41 PM Rating: Decent
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Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
Let's derail this away from WoW for a moment. Let's pretend for a moment that WoW doesn't exist. Never made. Never happened. Ignore WoW's entire existence.

Archmage Callinon wrote:
I want a drag and drop interface for my ability bars?
I want a party frame I can click for the purposes of targeting
If I want my mouse controls to be a good way to control my character and not just this alien device hanging obscenely off my USB port


Dragon Age has these features.
Neverwinter Nights has these features.
Arcanum has these features.

So what's wrong with wanting these three perfectly reasonable features that exist in several other games, without bringing up "that game that doesn't exist"?


good question. the answer is nothing. Nothing at all. I like the said features and understand why others like them too. They are usefull and they work well. My point is that many people write FFXIV off as a game cos it doesn't have these features. my point is

What's wrong with an RPG game not having those features. notice that all those games especially dragon age and neverwinter nights at the core have very similar style of combat interface as wow.

This combat interface has been used for nearly every mmo since wow. What's wrong with switching things up and not making ur game feel like those other games.

It should be noted i didn't focus this on wow. It's some posters who focus this on wow. Notice in my OP i didn't just focus on Wow.
#35 Sep 17 2010 at 1:44 PM Rating: Excellent
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And to clarify, sorry to bring up "that game" again, but...

I'm 100% in agreement with "FFXIV does not need X just because WoW had X, and WoW is good, therefore without X, FFXIV cannot be good". However, I don't think we should dismiss an idea totally based solely on the fact that "WoW had X, therefore if FFXIV has X, FFXIV will be like WoW".

Let me give you an example that is not game related.

"An SUV has wheels. I do not like to drive an SUV. Therefore, if a car has wheels, it is like an SUV, and therefore I would not drive it."

This is an example of faulty logic that is being applied here.

Again, I totally agree that "feature X" does not NEED to be included, JUST BECAUSE "it was in another game and I like that game therefore in order to like this game, it must therefore also have this feature". That line of thought it a crock of ****.

But conversely, isn't dismissing an idea outright just because "another game had it and I don't want XIV to be like that game" equally as silly?
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#36 Sep 17 2010 at 1:55 PM Rating: Excellent
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zenophage wrote:
Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
So what's wrong with wanting these three perfectly reasonable features that exist in several other games, without bringing up "that game that doesn't exist"?


good question. the answer is nothing. Nothing at all. I like the said features and understand why others like them too. They are usefull and they work well. My point is that many people write FFXIV off as a game cos it doesn't have these features. my point is

What's wrong with an RPG game not having those features. notice that all those games especially dragon age and neverwinter nights at the core have very similar style of combat interface as wow.

This combat interface has been used for nearly every mmo since wow. What's wrong with switching things up and not making ur game feel like those other games.

It should be noted i didn't focus this on wow. It's some posters who focus this on wow. Notice in my OP i didn't just focus on Wow.


I had a feeling you couldn't go one whole post without mentioning WoW, or specifically how "those games are coypying WoW too!"

Neverwinter Nights and Arcanum came out before WoW. Dragon Age was the only game on that list that came out after it. Also, the ability to switch characters in combat and pause combat to issue commands is not even remotely similar to WoW. Ragnarok Online and Baldur's Gate also had these features.

We're agreed that there's nothing wrong with the features, and I might say that I don't think people should write off the game just because it lacks them, but it really should have them.

A car would work fine without air conditioning, heat, a CD or tape deck, a radio, cup holders, airbags, or locks. But anyone looking to buy a car would likely be willing to not consider purchasing a vehicle based solely on the fact that it didn't have any one of these features, none of which are integral to the actual operation of the vehicle itself.

It's one thing to "switch things up to be different" but it's another to completely leave out features and replace them with worse ones, just to be different.

Would you go out tomorrow and buy a car that had a fan instead of an AC, s space heater mounted in the dash, an 8-track player, some pillows glued to the dashboard, and padlocks on the doors, just because "It's different, and different is better"? I highly doubt it.

"Different" -can- be better, but different can also be worse too. And in this case, different is worse.
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#37 Sep 17 2010 at 1:58 PM Rating: Good
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Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
And to clarify, sorry to bring up "that game" again, but...

I'm 100% in agreement with "FFXIV does not need X just because WoW had X, and WoW is good, therefore without X, FFXIV cannot be good". However, I don't think we should dismiss an idea totally based solely on the fact that "WoW had X, therefore if FFXIV has X, FFXIV will be like WoW".

Let me give you an example that is not game related.

"An SUV has wheels. I do not like to drive an SUV. Therefore, if a car has wheels, it is like an SUV, and therefore I would not drive it."

This is an example of faulty logic that is being applied here.

Again, I totally agree that "feature X" does not NEED to be included, JUST BECAUSE "it was in another game and I like that game therefore in order to like this game, it must therefore also have this feature". That line of thought it a crock of sh*t.

But conversely, isn't dismissing an idea outright just because "another game had it and I don't want XIV to be like that game" equally as silly?


no one has ever dismissed the idea. Outright. SE has stated that they learnt a number of things from WoW and various mmos. The problem with the logic of accusing someone of dismissing the idea is that the particualer crowd automatically assumes the idea was dismissed just because the concept was not implemented.

what does this mean. SE had to go with one or the other. I'm sure the considered the wow interface system but decided against it. The crowd in question just like you have said will always consider the idea dismissed until it's implemented like they want. This is the floor in that logic.

It's like asking ur parent for candy ur parent says no and you keep crying that mom and dad don't listen to you cos they said no. That's not a mature way to look at things. Have you considered they might just disagree with you. Which they are perfectly valid to do since in SE's case they have provided many great features for your home.
#38 Sep 17 2010 at 2:03 PM Rating: Decent
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Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
zenophage wrote:
Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
So what's wrong with wanting these three perfectly reasonable features that exist in several other games, without bringing up "that game that doesn't exist"?


good question. the answer is nothing. Nothing at all. I like the said features and understand why others like them too. They are usefull and they work well. My point is that many people write FFXIV off as a game cos it doesn't have these features. my point is

What's wrong with an RPG game not having those features. notice that all those games especially dragon age and neverwinter nights at the core have very similar style of combat interface as wow.

This combat interface has been used for nearly every mmo since wow. What's wrong with switching things up and not making ur game feel like those other games.

It should be noted i didn't focus this on wow. It's some posters who focus this on wow. Notice in my OP i didn't just focus on Wow.


I had a feeling you couldn't go one whole post without mentioning WoW, or specifically how "those games are coypying WoW too!"

Neverwinter Nights and Arcanum came out before WoW. Dragon Age was the only game on that list that came out after it. Also, the ability to switch characters in combat and pause combat to issue commands is not even remotely similar to WoW. Ragnarok Online and Baldur's Gate also had these features.

We're agreed that there's nothing wrong with the features, and I might say that I don't think people should write off the game just because it lacks them, but it really should have them.

A car would work fine without air conditioning, heat, a CD or tape deck, a radio, cup holders, airbags, or locks. But anyone looking to buy a car would likely be willing to not consider purchasing a vehicle based solely on the fact that it didn't have any one of these features, none of which are integral to the actual operation of the vehicle itself.

It's one thing to "switch things up to be different" but it's another to completely leave out features and replace them with worse ones, just to be different.

Would you go out tomorrow and buy a car that had a fan instead of an AC, s space heater mounted in the dash, an 8-track player, some pillows glued to the dashboard, and padlocks on the doors, just because "It's different, and different is better"? I highly doubt it.

"Different" -can- be better, but different can also be worse too. And in this case, different is worse.


you are the one mentioning WoW. you listed 4 games that work of the everquest style interface an interface that has existed for years. you commented on aspects of WoW while trying to hide behind the fact that you didn't mention it. So don't pretend that it's mean focusing on WoW.

on your second point. I totally disagree FFXIV really shouldn't have them just cos you can't see a way past that Particular interface. If they deem the design worthy of it then fine. However the system in place now will be more familar to FF fans of the console series and that's who SE is targeting.
#39 Sep 17 2010 at 2:10 PM Rating: Excellent
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#40 Sep 17 2010 at 2:15 PM Rating: Decent
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I'm a career THF. No THF = no interest in FFXIV. Simple as that. For me, it makes it a bad game.


I don't understand why people talk about the Disciplines as if they were classes. In my mind you build your character's class by leveling different disciplines and then combining the skills/abilities you need to create your class. Square is providing the building blocks and then you have to assemble them into a character that has meaning to you.

Me = Red Mage = Gladiator + Conjurer + Thurmatage (spelling)

I create a Red Mage by mixing the skills from multiple disciplines.
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#41 Sep 17 2010 at 2:28 PM Rating: Decent
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zenophage wrote:

3. The gamepad issue.
Heavens for bid Gods Forfend. I have to play with the game pad. ohhhh no!!!!. it's easy it's been used for years and can be learnt pretty easily. not to mention SE is implementing a hard ware mouse. Not to mention Alot of FF fans are console gamers since most ff have come out on consoles.


FTFY


"Gods Forfend" This must be the new form of nyerk! I must say this thread degraded pretty fast. I have to agree with Mikhalia on this one. I won't copy paste the entire thing but in mmo's different in most cases means worse. People expect to see common elements no matter what game they play. There is an expectation that there will be action bars, a map, inventory space and some sort of sales/ah service.

What people are missing is they are so hung up over the dumb extras and not actualy looking at if its a solid game or not. To **** with if its a replica of another ui interface or not. Is the story line engaging? Does it capture your attention, draw you in and cause you to spend endless hours just to finish more story line?

I belive the op makes too much of a generalization in putting people into what seems to be 3 catagorys. In regard to updating xi to look more line xiv well.. look how well that turned out for games like eq. It really is not going to bring long term players back and will anoy the **** out of the rest of us while the update.
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#42 Sep 17 2010 at 2:36 PM Rating: Good
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Alynis wrote:




What people are missing is they are so hung up over the dumb extras and not actualy looking at if its a solid game or not. To **** with if its a replica of another ui interface or not. Is the story line engaging? Does it capture your attention, draw you in and cause you to spend endless hours just to finish more story line?


While i respect your disagreement but i agree with this statment 100% and is how i feel about the matter.

I know you feel i generlised too much. I can understand that and maybe in fact i did. I 100% know that not everyone will be in the 3 parts i stated but they seem to be the most common schools of thought you come across when commenting on if you like or dislike the game.

Edited, Sep 17th 2010 4:37pm by zenophage
#43 Sep 17 2010 at 2:47 PM Rating: Decent
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you are the one mentioning WoW. you listed 4 games that work of the everquest style interface an interface that has existed for years. you commented on aspects of WoW while trying to hide behind the fact that you didn't mention it. So don't pretend that it's mean focusing on WoW.

on your second point. I totally disagree FFXIV really shouldn't have them just cos you can't see a way past that Particular interface. If they deem the design worthy of it then fine. However the system in place now will be more familar to FF fans of the console series and that's who SE is targeting.


The problem that you dont seem to get is that WoW has happened. Its out there, and its the absolute undeniably best MMO ever. You may or may not like the game yourself, or certain aspects of it, but it is still the drastically most played MMO ever, and is raking in the most money of any MMO ever. THAT is what makes it the best.

You see, people who want movable interfaces, clickable party frames etc etc want those things because they work really well and are easy to figure out. SE im very sure wants their game to make as much money and have as many subscribers as possible. They may not think they can knock off wow, but im sure they wish to entice a lot of wow players to spend their money on FFxiv. To do this you need to understand what it is that attracts sooo many people to WoW and then figure out how your game can utilize those features and then turn them into something better.

Gamers these days do not want to sift through menu after menu to do mundane activities in an MMO. Most MMO gamers would like a simple enough interface that you can swiftly and efficiently sell things, or find items in your inventory or set abilities to be used in battle. That way you can get back to the fun parts of the game much faster, like killing things or partying, or crafting or whatever it is. Im willing to bet NOONE would list selling items to an NPC as a FUN part of the game. So why make it take longer then it needs to?

You sit here with your condescending "see this is how a WoW idealist responds" crap and try to rationalize why others are wrong or offbase because they wish for comfortable game mechanics that they have been accustomed to from other games. When in reality you are the one who is off his rocker. Ive yet to see one single person on these forums actually state that they want this game to have gameplay exactly like WoW(or any other game for that matter) with only a difference of storylines, lore, world maps, and character/creature models. Yet that is how you paint anyone who touts some of WoW mechanics as being superior to some of FFxiv's mechanics. This is stupid logic.

You see noone wants that, everyone wants this to be the best FF ever, but they are also willing to admit that there are obvious game mechanics that work far more smoothly and are far more user friendly then current mechanics in FFxiv, and those mechanics could make the game more appealing to so many other people thus making SE more money and making the game a bigger "success".

I mean really, do you think SE wants to know that people wont play their game because they wont implement a simple inventory organization feature? That to me is a dumb reason not to play a game, but to SE im sure they would probably much rather put it in the game and get more money, then simply leave it out "to be different" or make it like "all the other FF games". Same goes with all the other minor UI and gameplay adjustments they could do to make life easier in the game.
#44 Sep 17 2010 at 3:07 PM Rating: Excellent
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Dicdonya wrote:
Quote:
you are the one mentioning WoW. you listed 4 games that work of the everquest style interface an interface that has existed for years. you commented on aspects of WoW while trying to hide behind the fact that you didn't mention it. So don't pretend that it's mean focusing on WoW.

on your second point. I totally disagree FFXIV really shouldn't have them just cos you can't see a way past that Particular interface. If they deem the design worthy of it then fine. However the system in place now will be more familar to FF fans of the console series and that's who SE is targeting.


The problem that you dont seem to get is that WoW has happened. Its out there, and its the absolute undeniably best MMO ever. You may or may not like the game yourself, or certain aspects of it, but it is still the drastically most played MMO ever, and is raking in the most money of any MMO ever. THAT is what makes it the best.


No, WoW is not the best. It is the most popular. Being the most popular does not make it the best, because "the best" is a subjective term, not an objective one.

Unless, of course, you're prepared to say also that you believe McDonalds is THE BEST place to eat at and Walmart is THE BEST place to shop at, since your logic is "most popular/most sales = the best" and they are both, in fact, the highest sales in their respective fields.
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#45 Sep 17 2010 at 3:15 PM Rating: Good
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Dicdonya wrote:


The problem that you dont seem to get is that WoW has happened. Its out there, and its the absolute undeniably best MMO ever. You may or may not like the game yourself, or certain aspects of it, but it is still the drastically most played MMO ever, and is raking in the most money of any MMO ever. THAT is what makes it the best.


Except I can deny that statement. Because, imo it's not the "best mmo ever". Just because something makes the most money I have to think that's the best? No thanks, I'll stick to forming my own opinions. I know you said a lot more then just that.. but I could not get any further in your post because that statement was just so awful.
#46 Sep 17 2010 at 3:20 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
No, WoW is not the best. It is the most popular. Being the most popular does not make it the best, because "the best" is a subjective term, not an objective one.

Unless, of course, you're prepared to say also that you believe McDonalds is THE BEST place to eat at and Walmart is THE BEST place to shop at, since your logic is "most popular/most sales = the best" and they are both, in fact, the highest sales in their respective fields.


I understand what your are saying. You are looking at the term "best" from the opposite angle I was.
I do not mean best to me or you as the consumer. I mean best for the company. And yes, mcdonalds in that sense is the best, or walmart.

You see though even though you may not think Mcdonalds has the best tasting food, millions upon millions of people eat there every year, so there must be a reason WHY this happens. Walmart too makes so much money and has so many connections that they too can enitce, for what ever reason it is, the most people to shop at their store as well.

This is the definition of "Success" to a company. Money earned vs money spent. So if your company is bringing in the most customers and therefore gaining the most money you have the most successful business you can or the best one.

Now like i said i totally understand what you meant and do not disagree that best in terms of what your or I want is not defined by the parameters that i gave. This however is a company and they are providing a service, one which they dearly need and want to produce revenue from, my post was to explain the best possible way to do that. Which is to look at the "best" most successful game on the market, analyze why it is that way and figure out ways to make it even better. Deciding to be totally different and to purposefully neglect workable non game breaking basic ui and gameplay mechanics that only annoy the masses is not gunna bring maximum success.
#47 Sep 17 2010 at 3:21 PM Rating: Excellent
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runtheplacered wrote:
Dicdonya wrote:


The problem that you dont seem to get is that WoW has happened. Its out there, and its the absolute undeniably best MMO ever. You may or may not like the game yourself, or certain aspects of it, but it is still the drastically most played MMO ever, and is raking in the most money of any MMO ever. THAT is what makes it the best.


Except I can deny that statement. Because, imo it's not the "best mmo ever". Just because something makes the most money I have to think that's the best? No thanks, I'll stick to forming my own opinions. I know you said a lot more then just that.. but I could not get any further in your post because that statement was just so awful.


Ditto. I stopped reading your post after that line as well.
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#48 Sep 17 2010 at 3:28 PM Rating: Good
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No, WoW is not the best. It is the most popular. Being the most popular does not make it the best, because "the best" is a subjective term, not an objective one.


I completely agree, WoW being the best MMO is like saying McDonalds is superior to Wendy's because it has more customers.

WoW is so popular because it is one of the first MMO's to reach out to the average gamer, not just the normal gamers who are always there, but dumb down parts of the game to make it easy to transition into it.

As a personal opinion I believe Blizzard is one of the best companies to design games and up keep them, my problem is they are taking WoW down a path for money, not greatness.
#49 Sep 17 2010 at 3:38 PM Rating: Good
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Good class system, I think I just ****** myself xD
#50 Sep 17 2010 at 3:56 PM Rating: Decent
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Consilium wrote:
Quote:
No, WoW is not the best. It is the most popular. Being the most popular does not make it the best, because "the best" is a subjective term, not an objective one.


I completely agree, WoW being the best MMO is like saying McDonalds is superior to Wendy's because it has more customers.

WoW is so popular because it is one of the first MMO's to reach out to the average gamer, not just the normal gamers who are always there, but dumb down parts of the game to make it easy to transition into it.



LOL
Im sorry but this is exactly what I find hilarious when people argue the success of WoW.

You are RIGHT! Wow is so popular because they were the first to reach out to the casual gamer. Look where that landed them. Smack dab on top of the MMO gaming world. You see as so many others in the post already talked about even wow took a lot of game mechanics that worked from other games and put them in their game, but they did the most important thing also, find a way to make it better. Better was to cater to casual gamers. Any company now a days that wants to get even close to wows success must add this into their game. Sooo many people that play MMOs do not have the time in real life to play a "hardcore" game anymore.

Long gone are those days. SE noticed this, they have tried very much to make this game more casual friendly and have made some good strides in that direction. So why would you want them to still make things like inventory management, skill slots, interacting with non npcs and party members etc etc take longer? Are these things gamebreaking? To some people yes, not to me.

Its already apparent from the majority of complaints about this game that those simple ease of use tibbits are what is ******* most customers off. Barely anyone is whining about the graphics, maps, combat, storylines, etc etc in this game. Its almost ALL about the UI, AH and stuff like that. Those things which make the game much more streamlined and less mundane repetition.

Quote:
As a personal opinion I believe Blizzard is one of the best companies to design games and up keep them, my problem is they are taking WoW down a path for money, not greatness.


I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but reality is, WoW is a company and money is what they want. They do not care if you are a happy little pussycat, if you are paying to play their game, and most everyone else is too, thats what they care about.

Also, all that money is a big reason WHY they have such good up keep of their game and can pay good designers to do it. Just saying. Money talks when it comes to companies and corporations, not good intentions.
#51 Sep 17 2010 at 4:04 PM Rating: Good
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Equal this game to being a total failure. This crowd should not be underestimated For they are often the most vocal. Games like AoC, Warhammer online ,global agenda and to some extent champions online have all had developers having to cave in to this crowd.


Everyone single one of those games are in different stages of failing. Why play a game that tries so hard to be WoW, but can never be better or as good as it? SE has stated they don't want FFXIV to play like WoW, because they want to do something different. If these group 1 people come to this game expecting yet another WoW clone, then they will be sorely disappointed, which is a good thing imho. Making games is like an art to SE, while many other developers are just out to get money from those people who only enjoy WoW-type games.

SE is catering this game towards your number 2 and number 3 groups. SE has always set out to make the game they want to make, be it good or bad. They don't pander to the masses crying about this and that, like Blizzard does. They do make adjustments over time, but nowhere near as often as Blizzard flip-flops. Are they creating any new innovations? No, not really. Beyond their continued use of a modified job-class system (something every MMO should have, imho), nothing about FFXIV is groundbreaking in MMOs genre, but I don't think that is what they set out to do in the first place.

Edited, Sep 17th 2010 5:06pm by Rysa
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