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More copy pasta, mikeb.Follow

#1 Sep 18 2010 at 12:00 PM Rating: Default
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Link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CA7GGnyNwEs

This is actually kind of funny, although I don't notice it while playing and you wouldn't notice it unless you're actually looking for it but its there and Mike has went out of his way to show the world...to some extent he has a point but imo when a game is this good looking, I don't care about a few spots here and there looking the exact same. I've stopped countless times in and around Ul'Dah to take in the scenery; for every spot that's been "copy pasted" there's 10 that are unique.
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#2 Sep 18 2010 at 12:03 PM Rating: Decent
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As much as I remember, all game companies have been doing this since doom.
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#3 Sep 18 2010 at 12:05 PM Rating: Decent
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What's with this 'copy pasta' thing? It's the same number of letters and there's more syllables than saying 'copy paste'. Plus 'copy pasta' makes no sense and sounds stupid. Kids these days.
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#4 Sep 18 2010 at 12:06 PM Rating: Default
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johngoforth wrote:
What's with this 'copy pasta' thing? It's the same number of letters and there's more syllables than saying 'copy paste'. Plus 'copy pasta' makes no sense and sounds stupid. Kids these days.


Hope you know I didn't make it up, Mike did.
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#5 Sep 18 2010 at 12:07 PM Rating: Decent
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Tarutinkler wrote:
As much as I remember, all game companies have been doing this since doom.


Doom didn't require gigabytes of RAM, high-end graphics cards, and processors in the multi-core gigahertz range

There are a couple other threads on this topic already but the "games from the early 90s do this too" argument is just ridiculous, and you know it.
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#6 Sep 18 2010 at 12:11 PM Rating: Default
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Tarutinkler wrote:
As much as I remember, all game companies have been doing this since doom.


There's a difference between CPing doodads and environmental effects (what most everyone does), and what SE has done -- drag the mouse over a field of the terrain and copy/pasting *EVERYTHING* with zero alterations.

Trying to state that everyone does this is moronic. They don't, and you're insulting other less lazy developers.
#7 Sep 18 2010 at 12:11 PM Rating: Good
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As much as I remember, all game companies have been doing this since doom.


People can't ***** about the UI, Fatigue, Guildleve cooldown or controller problems as much anymore so now it's going to be Copy Paste for awhile until something else comes along.

Just the new flavor.
#8 Sep 18 2010 at 12:13 PM Rating: Decent
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StrijderVechter wrote:
Tarutinkler wrote:
As much as I remember, all game companies have been doing this since doom.


There's a difference between CPing doodads and environmental effects (what most everyone does), and what SE has done -- drag the mouse over a field of the terrain and copy/pasting *EVERYTHING* with zero alterations.

Trying to state that everyone does this is moronic. They don't, and you're insulting other less lazy developers.


Lol I can show you copy pasted terrain in RdR, a single player game that is a fraction of the size of an MMO. Truth is anyone can show you copy pasted terrain in all MMOs, its just how it is.
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#9 Sep 18 2010 at 12:16 PM Rating: Default
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SolidMack wrote:
Lol I can show you copy pasted terrain in RdR, a single player game that is a fraction of the size of an MMO. Truth is anyone can show you copy pasted terrain in all MMOs, its just how it is.


Until you provide proof that they've CPed entire sections of a zone (it's not just rocks people) just like SE did, you're talking out of your ***.

PS: What the **** is RdR. There's over 30 different possibilities of what that means.

Edited, Sep 18th 2010 2:17pm by StrijderVechter
#10 Sep 18 2010 at 12:17 PM Rating: Default
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Tarutinkler wrote:
As much as I remember, all game companies have been doing this since doom.
They don't make it nearly as obvious.

And why do people keep using the excuse "well other developers suck and did it too so who cares if SE does it as well"? Why would you tolerate incompetence just because there are other incompetent people? And stop using video games from the 80s and 90s as a benchmark for design/graphical quality in late 2010.
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#11 Sep 18 2010 at 12:17 PM Rating: Excellent
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It's not really an issue for me. I never notice it when i'm running around anyway. Even if i did, it still wouldn't matter to me. I really don't understand why some people are making this an issue at all.
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#12StrijderVechter, Posted: Sep 18 2010 at 12:18 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Because for them to acknowledge just how blatantly obvious it is SE designed areas in older games with more care than they did with FFXIV, they'd have to also acknowledge every other terrible thing about the game as well.
#13 Sep 18 2010 at 12:19 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
It's not really an issue for me. I never notice it when i'm running around anyway. Even if i did, it still wouldn't matter to me. I really don't understand why some people are making this an issue at all.


Quote:
As much as I remember, all game companies have been doing this since doom.

People can't ***** about the UI, Fatigue, Guildleve cooldown or controller problems as much anymore so now it's going to be Copy Paste for awhile until something else comes along.

Just the new flavor.


If you look - it's the same people tossing complaints in every thread. They're not new people - it's just the same people finding more stuff to take up arms against since the flame has burned out for all the old complaint threads.

#14 Sep 18 2010 at 12:19 PM Rating: Good
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Some people need to get a life... Seriously.

If you want to give the game crap about something, at least make it worth it. Like some of the foliage that isnt similar to XI but the exact same thing with better colors. Still yet the effect works unless youre spending your entire time looking for somthing to whine about. Arnolds bad stunt double in T2 didnt suddenly make the movie awful. Happens
#15 Sep 18 2010 at 12:20 PM Rating: Good
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StrijderVechter wrote:
Teneleven wrote:
It's not really an issue for me. I never notice it when i'm running around anyway. Even if i did, it still wouldn't matter to me. I really don't understand why some people are making this an issue at all.


Translation: I'm incredibly oblivious.


I don't notice it either, and you wouldn't unless you're looking for it - there's plenty of variety.
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#16StrijderVechter, Posted: Sep 18 2010 at 12:21 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Actually the effect doesn't work, unless you're like the other incredibly oblivious people above (who would be content with SE shipping a pile of dog **** in a box to their doorstep). It's distracting.
#17 Sep 18 2010 at 12:21 PM Rating: Excellent
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StrijderVechter wrote:
Translation: I'm incredibly oblivious.

Oblivious? More like i just don't care. If you find it to be an issue, that's fine.

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#18 Sep 18 2010 at 12:22 PM Rating: Good
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StrijderVechter wrote:
SolidMack wrote:
I don't notice it either, and you wouldn't unless you're looking for it - there's plenty of variety.


Translation: I'm also incredibly oblivious.


Smiley: lol ok, enjoy your stay.
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#19 Sep 18 2010 at 12:22 PM Rating: Decent
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The Gridania fishing lakes locations are probably the worst.

When I imagine them making the maps for FFXIV, I just imagine it like a Sim City game, just shift clicking a whole bunch of stuff over and over in a rush.
#20 Sep 18 2010 at 12:23 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Translation: I'm incredibly oblivious.


Quote:
Translation: I'm also incredibly oblivious.


Translation: Blahblahblah - waaaaaah - blahblah, waaaah.
#21 Sep 18 2010 at 12:25 PM Rating: Default
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EmotionBlues wrote:
Quote:
Translation: I'm incredibly oblivious.


Quote:
Translation: I'm also incredibly oblivious.


Translation: Blahblahblah - waaaaaah - blahblah, waaaah.


Translation: I have nothing interesting to say at all, so I'll just type like the ****** I am in real life.
#22 Sep 18 2010 at 12:26 PM Rating: Excellent
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StrijderVechter wrote:
I am a troll, and i have nothing interesting to say at all, so I'll just type like the ****** I am in real life.


That about sums it up.

Edited, Sep 18th 2010 2:27pm by Teneleven
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#23 Sep 18 2010 at 12:27 PM Rating: Decent
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StrijderVechter wrote:
Translation: I have nothing interesting to say at all, so I'll just type like the ****** I am in real life.

That about sums it up.


Win.

You earn a Gold Moogle!

#24 Sep 18 2010 at 12:27 PM Rating: Good
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StrijderVechter wrote:

I have nothing interesting to say at all, so I'll just type like the ****** I am in real life.


You said it.
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#25 Sep 18 2010 at 12:37 PM Rating: Good
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For people complaining about repeating textures, I would like to see there creativity. Let's see them create a game as big as this without using copy&paste.

The game is flat out gorgeous, and the only thing these people seem to have time for is to look for what's wrong with something. You and another person could be looking at the Mona Lisa amazed by the artistic quality, then this person walks by and only notices that she doesn't have Eyebrows.

Can't wait till I can buy this game.

Edited, Sep 18th 2010 2:38pm by Demonadrastos
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#26 Sep 18 2010 at 12:38 PM Rating: Excellent
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Okay...let me get this straight. People expect to play a game where not one single thing looks like another? Maybe in the future when an MMO takes up an entire TB of space, but not at the moment. Also, don't most trees/rocks look the same from a distance anyways? Large open expanses of lands are going to start looking the same in game and real life.

Tons of stuff is copy/pasted, it's called a skin and/or tile. It helps keep development time down. Imagine having to develop a huge game world, keep every little detail unique, and keep it optimized so a large population of various systems can run it without choking to death.

Next, I'll be hearing people ******** that the 2" tall grasshoppers that hop around in the grass aren't unique enough. It's okay to pay attention to details, it's not okay to be an **** retentive spaz.
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#27 Sep 18 2010 at 12:39 PM Rating: Default
Edited by bsphil
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SolidMack wrote:
StrijderVechter wrote:
Teneleven wrote:
It's not really an issue for me. I never notice it when i'm running around anyway. Even if i did, it still wouldn't matter to me. I really don't understand why some people are making this an issue at all.


Translation: I'm incredibly oblivious.


I don't notice it either, and you wouldn't unless you're looking for it - there's plenty of variety.
It's been obvious since the first alpha, but it happens to be really bad outside gridania.

FYI, Gridania/Ul'dah have been closed off until the open beta.

Edited, Sep 18th 2010 1:40pm by bsphil
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#28 Sep 18 2010 at 12:40 PM Rating: Good
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In real life everything is completely different everywhere:

Screenshot


Screenshot


I don't really expect them to hand carve each rock in the game. I don't spend my time examining them to ensure they are each completely different. I'm busy playing the game.

Like people said above - it is the same exact people complaining about everything.

There were/are some issues that definately need attention, and most of us agree on that - but nitpicking every tree in the game is over the top.
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#29 Sep 18 2010 at 12:42 PM Rating: Decent
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bsphil wrote:


FYI, Gridania/Ul'dah have been closed off until the open beta.

Edited, Sep 18th 2010 1:40pm by bsphil


FYI I played OB and CB, what's your point?

EDIT: and lets be honest, no one was talking about copy pasted terrain until MikeB brought it up, so you complainers didn't even notice it before recently.

Edited, Sep 18th 2010 2:45pm by SolidMack

Edited, Sep 18th 2010 2:49pm by SolidMack
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#30 Sep 18 2010 at 12:42 PM Rating: Good
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I can understand copying and pasting. But in this game, just as in real life, there are certain features that are just a bit too noteworthy, too visually different, to be something they should have included in the copy/pasted terrain.

The little splits in the path in the Limsa Lominsa area is a big one. And it's mainly an issue when looking at the map more so than it is when just simply walking past it. The other one I saw that really stood out was the path in Coerthas, or whatever the name of the zone surrounding Jeuno 2.0. Rocks surrounding the path were identical in a few spots.

Again, I love the game, and I don't consider this to be horrible. But I think they should have picked more mundane parts of the map to really employ the copy/paste technique. That beings said, maybe they did, and since they're less noticeable, we haven't noticed yet :D

Either way, I can't wait for the 22nd!
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#31 Sep 18 2010 at 12:47 PM Rating: Good
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The "copy/paste" thing was extremely prominent in FFXI and WoW* as well. And it isn't even copy/pasting I don't know why people are using that term for this kind of stuff but oh well.

People will complain for the sake of complaining.

Edit* Not to mention pretty much every other game I've ever played in my life.

Edited, Sep 18th 2010 2:47pm by Rjain
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#32 Sep 18 2010 at 12:47 PM Rating: Excellent
StrijderVechter wrote:
EmotionBlues wrote:
Quote:
Translation: I'm incredibly oblivious.


Quote:
Translation: I'm also incredibly oblivious.


Translation: Blahblahblah - waaaaaah - blahblah, waaaah.


Translation: I have nothing interesting to say at all, so I'll just type like the ****** I am in real life.



Ok, example setting time. This crosses the line. Do it again and earn a shiney Mute.

Disagreeing is one thing. Flaming is one thing. Personal attacks such as this cross the line.
#33 Sep 18 2010 at 12:48 PM Rating: Good
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Olorinus the Vile wrote:
In real life everything is completely different everywhere:


Too much HDR in the 1st pic, and no ground textures in the second, fail graphi oh wait.
#34 Sep 18 2010 at 12:48 PM Rating: Default
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Olorinus the Vile wrote:
In real life everything is completely different everywhere:

Screenshot


Screenshot


I don't really expect them to hand carve each rock in the game. I don't spend my time examining them to ensure they are each completely different. I'm busy playing the game.

Like people said above - it is the same exact people complaining about everything.

There were/are some issues that definately need attention, and most of us agree on that - but nitpicking every tree in the game is over the top.
Stupid example, people explicitly want to make the buildings look alike to maintain a brand name and enforce recognition so customers can more easily recognize the building.
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#35 Sep 18 2010 at 12:50 PM Rating: Decent
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Okay, that Wal-Mart looks like the one right around the corner from my house..

Are you following me!?

Wait a second...
#36 Sep 18 2010 at 12:51 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Stupid example, people explicitly want to make the buildings look alike to maintain a brand name and enforce recognition so customers can more easily recognize the building.


Actually where I live and many places I've visited there are districts which are identical in looks in each major commercial area. They usually feature a Wal-Mart but not always.

They have almost identical layouts. If they're not identical they're mirrored.

Not that I care about the point the original poster was trying to make but yes in real-life there's a lot of repeated layouts for commercial areas and it doesn't always have to do with branding since it doesn't even involve the same stores half the time.
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#39 Sep 18 2010 at 12:55 PM Rating: Excellent
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bsphil wrote:
Olorinus the Vile wrote:
In real life everything is completely different everywhere:

Screenshot


Screenshot


I don't really expect them to hand carve each rock in the game. I don't spend my time examining them to ensure they are each completely different. I'm busy playing the game.

Like people said above - it is the same exact people complaining about everything.

There were/are some issues that definately need attention, and most of us agree on that - but nitpicking every tree in the game is over the top.
Stupid example, people explicitly want to make the buildings look alike to maintain a brand name and enforce recognition so customers can more easily recognize the building.

Those may not be the best examples, but he does have a point. You often here stories of people lost in the woods. Wandering around for hours in circles, because everything looks the same. Same thing with the desert. People get lost in cities because 1 street looks like the next, like the next and so on.
I know, that these examples don't accurately describe the zones in FF XIV, but there are some similarities. Gridinia being one of them, Ul'Dah another. I'm not ignorant to the fact that it is obvious in some areas, but like i stated before, i just don't care enough about it to see it as an issue. I'm not going to call other people out for seeing it that way either.
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#40 Sep 18 2010 at 12:57 PM Rating: Default
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Haha have fun in mute world.

On a side note, this thread turned out how I figured it would...
#41 Sep 18 2010 at 1:00 PM Rating: Decent
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....but you're not someone I'd want to be on the road with when you're driving.


It would be pretty awesome if I could set my steering wheel down and go take a dump when I'm on my way to the store to go grocery shopping...

.. oh wait, bad comparison is bad.

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Shut up and stop taking the side I'm on, you're just making it look worse.


Although I don't always agree with bsphil's position on things - at least he's level headed and offers valid points and counterpoints in constructive cristisism - and is an asset to the community in various ways of supporting/answering questions. Amen sir, amen.
#42 Sep 18 2010 at 1:01 PM Rating: Decent
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EmotionBlues wrote:
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Shut up and stop taking the side I'm on, you're just making it look worse.


Although I don't always agree with bsphil's position on things - at least he's level headed and offers valid points and counterpoints in constructive cristisism
Let's not get out of hand.
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#43 Sep 18 2010 at 1:03 PM Rating: Decent
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As far as I'm aware, no one has complained that the fruit stand in LL looks similar to the fruit stand in Ul'dah. It was more of a complaint about portraying natural environments that would be... you know... created naturally. hehe.

Again, I agree that probably the majority of the complaints are being generated from the same people who are complaining about everything. On the other hand, I'm a strong advocate of calling dung dung and not trying to sugar coat it all the time. Call me a devil's advocate, if you will.

Basically I feel re-using terrain textures in certain cases is fine (Small cave layouts, clumps of doodads that don't immediately stand out, and larger portions of terrain that are not easily identified by key visual stimuli.

Reusing terrain that is easily identifiable/distinguishable, however, is probably not a tactic I'd advise them to continue, simply because the more visually striking an object/item/chunk of terrain is, the more memorable it is, and the more likely people are to say, "Didn't we already see this?" when exploring the zones.
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#44 Sep 18 2010 at 1:03 PM Rating: Good
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Let's not get out of hand.


Oof, you're right. Sorry, weak moment. :)
#45 Sep 18 2010 at 1:03 PM Rating: Good
One of the major selling points of FFXIV, visually, is the high level of detail in the environments. S-E did a "Making of Eorzea" segment talking about how all of the environments are hand crafted with each individual barrel or piece fruit placed by a designer. To then turn around and copy-past an entire section of a zone just seems pretty lazy in light of their earlier claims.

They're not the first developers to do it, not even MMO developers. For example, in vanilla World of Warcraft, every cave has one of two layouts, and every mine has one of two layouts, etc. It wasn't until Wrath of the Lich King (the second expansion) that every single building, cave, and piece of terrain was truly hand crafted and unique. However, the difference in quality between vanilla/burning crusade and Wrath is astonishing. Those hand crafted locations (along with higher poly counts and better textures) make Wrath look like a completely different game than earlier WoW areas. One of the things that Blizzard is doing with their looming expansion "Cataclysm" is to go back and blow up a lot of the same old copy pasted old world terrain. Literally the entire old world is being remade or altered by hand. The game will surely look and feel like a much more compelling world because of this.

Copy pasting IS noticeable. Just because you didn't notice it in the first few hours of play doesn't mean that you won't notice it eventually. It Will make the game world less compelling when you enter a cave and even though you've never been in THAT cave, its the same cave you've been in a dozen times before. It kills whatever sense of immersion you have. It does make a difference, and it's worth complaining about, if for no other reason than to prevent Square from doing more of it in the future.

Edited, Sep 18th 2010 3:21pm by KarlHungis
#46 Sep 18 2010 at 1:18 PM Rating: Decent
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Ridere wrote:
As far as I'm aware, no one has complained that the fruit stand in LL looks similar to the fruit stand in Ul'dah. It was more of a complaint about portraying natural environments that would be... you know... created naturally. hehe.

Again, I agree that probably the majority of the complaints are being generated from the same people who are complaining about everything. On the other hand, I'm a strong advocate of calling dung dung and not trying to sugar coat it all the time. Call me a devil's advocate, if you will.

Basically I feel re-using terrain textures in certain cases is fine (Small cave layouts, clumps of doodads that don't immediately stand out, and larger portions of terrain that are not easily identified by key visual stimuli.

Reusing terrain that is easily identifiable/distinguishable, however, is probably not a tactic I'd advise them to continue, simply because the more visually striking an object/item/chunk of terrain is, the more memorable it is, and the more likely people are to say, "Didn't we already see this?" when exploring the zones.
Reusing models is fine, but you need to be a bit more creative with your programming to be able to hide it. Like, when you're going across a short stream outside of gridania in a pathway, there is literally only ONE model for the river (that's why it gets repeated a dozen times). If you could at least make a few models, and then break them down into pieces so that the pieces could be interchanged to create more variety, allow reversing of the model, it'd be a lot harder to distinguish the copied items. You'll still be using copy/pasta'd models, but you're at least being smart enough about it to make it hard to see.

Then again, if it's just part of the map, I don't know why they couldn't just make everything at least somewhat unique. Are they loading only pieces of the map and assembling them on the fly to save on RAM...? That'd be a somewhat smart plan for the ps3 but I'm assuming they aren't just being completely lazy and loading a dozen copies of the exact same model in the map because it was easier to design.
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#47 Sep 18 2010 at 1:24 PM Rating: Default
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KarlHungis Delivers on Time wrote:
They're not the first developers to do it, not even MMO developers. For example, in vanilla World of Warcraft, every cave has one of two layouts, and every mine has one of two layouts, etc


I also remember Oblivion had a lot of similar terrain now that you brought up caves in WoW - I remember back then what sold me on Oblivion (it was my first and probably my last TeS game) was that the world was huge and so many places to visit but after entering on or two caves or one or two dungeons you've basically seen them all.

Again, the complainers didn't start complaining about "copy pasted" terrain until MikeB brought it up, obviously it wasn't an issue before now because no one noticed it...they may have reused chunks of land but the environments are still large and varied...geologically speaking too the detail is pretty cool - in Ul'Dah region as you get closer to the boat that takes you to Lominsa you're obviously getting closer to water so the ground in that region is saturated and water brims to the surface making the land damp and when you step on it it gives the appropriate sound effects and animations...its the area outside the docks, almost looks like a marshland...I think the detail is insane.
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#48 Sep 18 2010 at 1:24 PM Rating: Decent
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KarlHungis Delivers on Time wrote:
One of the major selling points of FFXIV, visually, is the high level of detail in the environments. S-E did a "Making of Eorzea" segment talking about how all of the environments are hand crafted with each individual barrel or piece fruit placed by a designer. To then turn around and copy-past an entire section of a zone just seems pretty lazy in light of their earlier claims.

They're not the first developers to do it, not even MMO developers. For example, in vanilla World of Warcraft, every cave has one of two layouts, and every mine has one of two layouts, etc. It wasn't until Wrath of the Lich King (the second expansion) that every single building, cave, and piece of terrain was truly hand crafted and unique. However, the difference in quality between vanilla/burning crusade and Wrath is astonishing. Those hand crafted locations (along with higher poly counts and better textures) make Wrath look like a completely different game than earlier WoW areas. One of the things that Blizzard is doing with their looming expansion "Cataclysm" is to go back and blow up a lot of the same old copy pasted old world terrain. Literally the entire old world is being remade or altered by hand. The game will surely look and feel like a much more compelling world because of this.

Copy pasting IS noticeable. Just because you didn't notice it in the first few hours of play doesn't mean that you won't notice it eventually. It Will make the game world less compelling when you enter a cave and that even though you've never been in THAT cave, its the same cave you've been in a dozen times before. It kills whatever sense of immersion you have. It does make a difference, and it's worth complaining about, if for no other reason than to prevent Square from doing more of it in the future.


This exactly.

Also please everyone keep in mind that when we criticize this it's NOT buildings we're talking about. Architectural designs are going to follow the same style when you're talking about the same civilization, so copy/pasted fruit stands and houses I actually EXPECT to happen. When you're talking about landscapes though, the sweeping geographical formations of the world, chaos theory states that you will NEVER encounter the exact same geographical formation twice. When you're talking about the world, you're talking about environments that have been shaped over billions of years by wind and rain and heat and cold into the shapes they have now, there's simply no conceivable way for any of these formations to ever be identical to one another.

Now, do I expect THAT level of detail in a game? Nope. But I expect the illusion of that level of detail. For instance FFXI: I'm sure it used copy/pasting of certain terrain features, but it's hidden well and isn't obvious. It's entirely possible in that game to figure out where you are in a zone you know well purely by landmarks, that isn't possible in FFXIV because identical landmarks are evenly distributed across the entire zone every few dozen yards.

This breaks immersion, and it's also hilarious after the Making of Eorza videos that attempt to demonstrate how exactly this didn't happen.

Edited, Sep 18th 2010 2:26pm by Callinon

EDIT: I fail at grammar

Edited, Sep 18th 2010 2:27pm by Callinon
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#49 Sep 18 2010 at 1:29 PM Rating: Good
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Forgive me for sounding so naive but when I'm on my way home from work any typical day I pass by flowers in different spots that look exactly alike. Not to mention stop signs and traffic lights. Heck on a couple of blocks on my route there are houses that are identical. I'm not sure what the big deal is that we see the same bush in different parts of the game world.
Maybe some people are making too big a deal out of nothing, maybe I'm making too small a deal out of something, but in the end that scenery is still gorgeous.
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#50 Sep 18 2010 at 1:33 PM Rating: Default
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ReiThor wrote:
Forgive me for sounding so naive but when I'm on my way home from work any typical day I pass by flowers in different spots that look exactly alike. Not to mention stop signs and traffic lights. Heck on a couple of blocks on my route there are houses that are identical. I'm not sure what the big deal is that we see the same bush in different parts of the game world.
Maybe some people are making too big a deal out of nothing, maybe I'm making too small a deal out of something, but in the end that scenery is still gorgeous.


We're not talking about life forms or constructs, we're talking about geographical features.. read my post right above yours
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svlyons wrote:
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#51 Sep 18 2010 at 1:38 PM Rating: Default
Edited by bsphil
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ReiThor wrote:
Forgive me for sounding so naive but when I'm on my way home from work any typical day I pass by flowers in different spots that look exactly alike.
Very similar, sure. Exactly alike, no.
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