Forum Settings
       
This Forum is Read Only

Tough Luck for Mages?Follow

#1 Sep 19 2010 at 2:13 PM Rating: Good
Scholar
**
787 posts
It's a habit that I followed in every MMORPG that I played. Whenever I saw a mining or harvesting node, I would stop and start harvesting/mining and then go on my way. I've already setup a ton of macros in Open Beta to swap between my fighting, crafting and gathering jobs, but I noticed something annoying with my two mage jobs. After harvesting and switching back to my mage job, I no longer had all my MP. The amount of MP usually drops by 150ish. The MP doesn't steadily decrease every time I swap jobs. I seem to lose the MP when I switched to the gathering job. But when I switch back, I stay at whatever the MP level was for the Gathering job. I notice that my HP does change depending on what job I switched to, but HP regenerates very quickly. MP doesn't regenerate so it feels like mages are getting the short end of the stick.

#2 Sep 19 2010 at 2:19 PM Rating: Good
rubina wrote:
It's a habit that I followed in every MMORPG that I played. Whenever I saw a mining or harvesting node, I would stop and start harvesting/mining and then go on my way. I've already setup a ton of macros in Open Beta to swap between my fighting, crafting and gathering jobs, but I noticed something annoying with my two mage jobs. After harvesting and switching back to my mage job, I no longer had all my MP. The amount of MP usually drops by 150ish. The MP doesn't steadily decrease every time I swap jobs. I seem to lose the MP when I switched to the gathering job. But when I switch back, I stay at whatever the MP level was for the Gathering job. I notice that my HP does change depending on what job I switched to, but HP regenerates very quickly. MP doesn't regenerate so it feels like mages are getting the short end of the stick.



I would expect that the way SE is handling MP right now will be changed fairly soon. They're trying too hard to force "strategy" when all they're really doing is piling all kinds of restrictions on caster classes. They've said that they want casters to have the nukes but that they want the use of said nukes to be carefully considered instead of spammed. I get what they're aiming for, I just think the way they're going about it is pretty weak in terms of design.
#3 Sep 19 2010 at 2:23 PM Rating: Decent
***
2,120 posts
I brought this up in another thread because I like to do that too. I see a shiny gathering point or a good fishing spot and I can't resist. So then you go back to the mage job and you've lost a ton of MP and your tranquility/exaltation has reset and can't be used for 10 minutes. A real pain to be sure. When I mentioned it in the other thread someone replied saying SE did say they were going to improve on that. Hopefully that's the case because right now you may not play the game the way you like just to avoid that nonsense.

Edited, Sep 19th 2010 4:24pm by TwistedOwl
____________________________

#4 Sep 19 2010 at 2:23 PM Rating: Good
**
723 posts
The One and Only Aurelius wrote:
I would expect that the way SE is handling MP right now will be changed fairly soon. They're trying too hard to force "strategy" when all they're really doing is piling all kinds of restrictions on caster classes. They've said that they want casters to have the nukes but that they want the use of said nukes to be carefully considered instead of spammed. I get what they're aiming for, I just think the way they're going about it is pretty weak in terms of design.


I'm sure something will be done, during the beta when I played my Conjurer/Thaumaturge mix I almost never used a nuke. I would heal when needed, and buff with Shock Spikes and that was pretty much it. It's a lot more efficient to just spam your weapon's basic attack.
#5 Sep 19 2010 at 2:24 PM Rating: Decent
*
90 posts
I too noticed this and posted along the same lines oh not to mention that not only did you just take a substantial hit in your MP pool(I almost had 800MP at beta close) but youve just reset your 10min mana regen too orz. I feel its a problem b/c melee classes have absolutly nothing to worry about they see a node... the switch and nock it then pick up thier axe and nothing has really changed for them, Mages on the otherhand... IMO experience a set back every time they change jobs.
#6 Sep 19 2010 at 2:34 PM Rating: Decent
***
1,112 posts
I don't find MP to be an issue at all really, especially at higher levels where other methods of restoring MP become available.

What I find most concerning, and I see almost zero discussion of it, is how skill points are awarded in parties -- IE, how Mages get next to no skill ups in them. While in a party you gain skill exactly the same way you would as you do when soloing. Perform an action, receive skill points with a certain chance. The issue is that while melee do pretty much exactly what they do when soloing in a party, Mages do not:

When soloing, melee classes hit things to kill them.
When soloing, mage classes cast at things to kill them.
In a group, melee classes hit things to kill them.
In a group, mage classes heal the party (which never awards skill) and conserve MP with limited spell casting.

Due to this, melee classes earn skill just as quick, if not quicker, when in a party. Mage classes on the other hand earn skill much slower when in a party compared to when solo. This is a very important issue, because when all the Mage class players click on to this, they'll solo instead of grouping and this will slay the grouping aspect of XIV very quickly if not dealt with.
____________________________
To endanger the soul endangers all,
when the soul is endangered it must become a Warrior.
#7 Sep 19 2010 at 2:39 PM Rating: Good
**
723 posts
Kordain wrote:
I don't find MP to be an issue at all really, especially at higher levels where other methods of restoring MP become available.

What I find most concerning, and I see almost zero discussion of it, is how skill points are awarded in parties -- IE, how Mages get next to no skill ups in them. While in a party you gain skill exactly the same way you would as you do when soloing. Perform an action, receive skill points with a certain chance. The issue is that while melee do pretty much exactly what they do when soloing in a party, Mages do not:

When soloing, melee classes hit things to kill them.
When soloing, mage classes cast at things to kill them.
In a group, melee classes hit things to kill them.
In a group, mage classes heal the party (which never awards skill) and conserve MP with limited spell casting.

Due to this, melee classes earn skill just as quick, if not quicker, when in a party. Mage classes on the other hand earn skill much slower when in a party compared to when solo. This is a very important issue, because when all the Mage class players click on to this, they'll solo instead of grouping and this will slay the grouping aspect of XIV very quickly if not dealt with.


You seem to be in a FFXI mindset. You can always be spamming your basic attack, I doubt you'll pull hate even if you have to toss off a heal. The reason you didn't auto attack in FFXI was because it was a melee attack and you'd be in danger in the front lines, and you also need to rest MP. Both aren't issues in this game. Whenever I grouped as a Conjurer/Thaumaturge combo, I would play as I play solo, but just be a little more mindful of my enmity and I would AoE my buffs/heals instead of just casting them on myself.

This is not FFXI-2, it's a different game with a different play style. At least in the first 20 ranks I've experienced. I cannot speak for mid-late game roles.

Edited, Sep 19th 2010 4:42pm by Jeraziah
#8 Sep 19 2010 at 2:40 PM Rating: Good
Kordain wrote:
I don't find MP to be an issue at all really, especially at higher levels where other methods of restoring MP become available.

What I find most concerning, and I see almost zero discussion of it, is how skill points are awarded in parties -- IE, how Mages get next to no skill ups in them. While in a party you gain skill exactly the same way you would as you do when soloing. Perform an action, receive skill points with a certain chance. The issue is that while melee do pretty much exactly what they do when soloing in a party, Mages do not:

When soloing, melee classes hit things to kill them.
When soloing, mage classes cast at things to kill them.
In a group, melee classes hit things to kill them.
In a group, mage classes heal the party (which never awards skill) and conserve MP with limited spell casting.


It has been confirmed repeatedly that not only can caster classes get skillups for healing other party members, those skillups can frequently be larger than what they'd get from spamming attacks.
#9 Sep 19 2010 at 2:48 PM Rating: Decent
***
2,120 posts
The One and Only Aurelius wrote:
Kordain wrote:
I don't find MP to be an issue at all really, especially at higher levels where other methods of restoring MP become available.

What I find most concerning, and I see almost zero discussion of it, is how skill points are awarded in parties -- IE, how Mages get next to no skill ups in them. While in a party you gain skill exactly the same way you would as you do when soloing. Perform an action, receive skill points with a certain chance. The issue is that while melee do pretty much exactly what they do when soloing in a party, Mages do not:

When soloing, melee classes hit things to kill them.
When soloing, mage classes cast at things to kill them.
In a group, melee classes hit things to kill them.
In a group, mage classes heal the party (which never awards skill) and conserve MP with limited spell casting.


It has been confirmed repeatedly that not only can caster classes get skillups for healing other party members, those skillups can frequently be larger than what they'd get from spamming attacks.


Yup, I haven't been in parties a ton, but I've had some good skillups curing. They seemed to improve it a lot over the course of beta and if they tweak it further, even better. Like I mentioned in another thread, anyone asking me to join their party and expects a XI white mage will be quite disappointed. I'm all up in the fight chipping in on the damage and making it easier to cast a quick aoe cure or buff. Though there's still often that one DD that takes hate and likes to run away out of AoE range...or the weakest link in the party deciding to charge in first...


Edited, Sep 19th 2010 4:52pm by TwistedOwl
____________________________

#10 Sep 19 2010 at 2:54 PM Rating: Decent
Avatar
*****
12,709 posts
Even in XI with potential unlimited MP you still eventually learn MP management, especially pre Refresh and Ballad levels. This is basically forcing you to learn it where you'll be screwed if you blow all of your MP in a battle. It's obvious they'll add in drinks/ethers etc since what FF game doesn't have ethers in some form that has an MP system?
____________________________

#11 Sep 19 2010 at 3:27 PM Rating: Good
Scholar
**
787 posts
TwistedOwl wrote:
[quote=The One and Only Aurelius][quote=KordainYup, I haven't been in parties a ton, but I've had some good skillups curing. Edited, Sep 19th 2010 4:52pm by TwistedOwl


I don't mind being a dedicated healer, but I hope Conj/Thaum will get as much potential job XP as if they were nuking away. So far I think it's fairly streaky at best. Casted two Cures in combat, zero experience. Cast a third Cure outside of combat just to top off the party for a chain pull, I get job XP.
#12 Sep 19 2010 at 3:31 PM Rating: Good
Scholar
**
787 posts
TwistedOwl wrote:
I brought this up in another thread because I like to do that too. I see a shiny gathering point or a good fishing spot and I can't resist. So then you go back to the mage job and you've lost a ton of MP and your tranquility/exaltation has reset and can't be used for 10 minutes. A real pain to be sure. When I mentioned it in the other thread someone replied saying SE did say they were going to improve on that. Hopefully that's the case because right now you may not play the game the way you like just to avoid that nonsense.
Edited, Sep 19th 2010 4:24pm by TwistedOwl


Rated up. Thanks for adding the forced reset of Tranquility/Exaltation during a job change. I knew I was forgetting something. I'm very proficient with MP management, but it's annoying to see a good 20-25% of your MP gone just from a simple job change. I think the melee jobs would be screaming bloody murder if they lose 25% of their STR/DEX/AGI or their HP which can't be quickly regenerated whenever they swap jobs.
#13 Sep 19 2010 at 3:32 PM Rating: Good
Sage
*
121 posts
What the OP is talking about is a severe design flaw that I'm hoping got mentioned in the Beta feedback forums (I never played a mage, so never even thought about it). Basically, instead of doing a percentile based HP/MP swap when switching classes, they've chosen to go with a flat number rate. This could be easily fixed and not even be an issue if SE changes the code so that if you switch from a DoH or DoL to a DoW/M, it gives you the percent left of your HP/MP instead of the numeric value.
#14 Sep 19 2010 at 3:40 PM Rating: Good
***
2,120 posts
rubina wrote:
I don't mind being a dedicated healer, but I hope Conj/Thaum will get as much potential job XP as if they were nuking away. So far I think it's fairly streaky at best. Casted two Cures in combat, zero experience. Cast a third Cure outside of combat just to top off the party for a chain pull, I get job XP.


Yup, I'd consider all of the experience streaky. I've soloed some orange & red mobs with 0 class experience more than a couple times. Then a full 500 the next fight with a nice 200+ on a blue mob in the mix. Lots of theories are out there for maximizing skill gain, but then you get 0 class exp on a red mob and have to scratch your head. Would be nice to have it all straightened out and know what to expect. The inconsistent skill gains from curing makes it even more complicated...
____________________________

#15 Sep 19 2010 at 3:47 PM Rating: Decent
Avatar
*****
12,709 posts
TwistedOwl wrote:
rubina wrote:
I don't mind being a dedicated healer, but I hope Conj/Thaum will get as much potential job XP as if they were nuking away. So far I think it's fairly streaky at best. Casted two Cures in combat, zero experience. Cast a third Cure outside of combat just to top off the party for a chain pull, I get job XP.


Yup, I'd consider all of the experience streaky. I've soloed some orange & red mobs with 0 class experience more than a couple times. Then a full 500 the next fight with a nice 200+ on a blue mob in the mix. Lots of theories are out there for maximizing skill gain, but then you get 0 class exp on a red mob and have to scratch your head. Would be nice to have it all straightened out and know what to expect. The inconsistent skill gains from curing makes it even more complicated...


It's just the unbalanced nature of the beta..FFXI's beta was just like this till they normalized everything (and the balance between party play and the early solo levels)
____________________________

This forum is read only
This Forum is Read Only!
Recent Visitors: 19 All times are in CST
Anonymous Guests (19)