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Will the -many- problems make people quit?Follow

#1 Sep 23 2010 at 1:19 PM Rating: Good
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I'm going to start off by saying I love this game. I have fun in it and I want to see it succeed. However, almost all the serious problem in open-beta have been ignored.
I'm wondering if anyone else has felt the pain of these problems, and if you think people will quit the game because of some of them.

Problem 1: Economy
There is no viable set-up for an economy. Over time prices will somewhat balance out, but it will be very difficult and time consuming for any adventurer to figure out the prices of various crafting items. A crafter might know what everything is worth but the average gladiator will not.
Consider this. You just got back from leveling and have 70/80 in your inventory. You decide to sell some of your materials that are needed by crafters.... But what is needed? How much is each various item worth? You can only sell a few items at a time on your retainer so which items do you choose to sell?
With no knowledge of past sales, or how much items are selling for you have only a few logical options.
You can run around all 3 cities (or maybe in a week check zam's awesome database) and figure out npc prices. Then price items somewhere inbetween what you could sell the item to an npc for and what the npc is selling the item for.
Or you can /browse every retainer in the wards and copy someone else's price.
Either way is very time consuming and not guaranteed to get you sales.

Therefore, the average person will be discouraged from NPCing -necessary- crafting items. This means crafters will be unable to craft as much without getting the mats for themselves. And this further means there will be less equipment for sale.

Problem 2: Mob Distribution
Unlike FFXI which had multiple starting-zones, FFXIV has one starting area per nation. This results in incredible lag as well as competition to claim mobs. As fun as the game is, no one enjoys spending 5 minutes to find something, only to die because of lag.
This does not improve as levels increase. In the open-beta people kept arguing that SE would change mob-distribution. And they did, but barely. For the most part nothing has really changed (except some agro mobs have been moved out of low level areas). This has resulted in a very poor first 10-levels experience, and will most likely turn a lot of non-mmorpg'ers off of the game.

Problem 3: Lack of quests/zones/immersion
FFXI and many other mmorpgs wrap the player up in their magical fantasy worlds, making them feel like -part- of the game. FF14 on the other hand doesn't. It has some nice "missions" but other than those I don't believe anyone has found any actual story-quests. When you started FFXI you could get like 10+ quests, all which had intricate storylines and interesting characters. Here there is just the main story, and the rest of the game seems to be grinding. And its a -long- grind between story-missions. Further, the token enemy-mobs are nowhere to be seen. FFXI had orcs, quadavs, and yagudo, roaming the starting areas. They presented a greater challenge than average mobs, and they created a sense of an enemy in the game. This game has no real enemy. The story is nice, but it seems like you won't see an actual enemy until level 20+. I have seen the beastmen in gridania, but only 1, and it was probably level 50.
Even more, the villages still seem pretty well useless as of now. They might be included in the storyline later, but they just seem to be there at this point. The game doesn't really get people to explore, or to learn the history of the land, or care about the world they are playing in. Rather it seems to be a very intricate grind-fest with very little immersion.
I can see this turning a lot of final-fantasy players off of this game very quickly (since final fantasy is all about story).

Other problems
There is serious lack of support/explanation from SE.
There are issues with launch and with bonus items (ex. ive had my ffxi account linked for a while and have had my account active since ffxi's launch, yet i didn't get the hermes shoes)
There is horrible lag around the first camps
There is no explanation about multiple retainers
The bazaar and retainer system is still VERY slow when you consider that SE intends an economy to form around it
People have been having issues with the payment program
There seem to be claim issues with mobs (prob due to the lag)
and probably many more

Once again, I don't mean to criticize the game, I think its wonderful. But many people admitted these were problems, and ignored them using the "its A BETA" argument. It's no longer a beta, and these problems seem to pose a serious threat to user-retention. So again, does anyone else find these same issues to be a problem? And do you think SE will fix them -before- they lose 100s of potential long-term players?


#2 Sep 23 2010 at 1:24 PM Rating: Decent
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Azurymber wrote:
I'm going to start off by saying I love this game. I have fun in it and I want to see it succeed. However, almost all the serious problem in open-beta have been ignored.
I'm wondering if anyone else has felt the pain of these problems, and if you think people will quit the game because of some of them.

Problem 1: Economy
There is no viable set-up for an economy. Over time prices will somewhat balance out, but it will be very difficult and time consuming for any adventurer to figure out the prices of various crafting items. A crafter might know what everything is worth but the average gladiator will not.
Consider this. You just got back from leveling and have 70/80 in your inventory. You decide to sell some of your materials that are needed by crafters.... But what is needed? How much is each various item worth? You can only sell a few items at a time on your retainer so which items do you choose to sell?
With no knowledge of past sales, or how much items are selling for you have only a few logical options.
You can run around all 3 cities (or maybe in a week check zam's awesome database) and figure out npc prices. Then price items somewhere inbetween what you could sell the item to an npc for and what the npc is selling the item for.
Or you can /browse every retainer in the wards and copy someone else's price.
Either way is very time consuming and not guaranteed to get you sales.

Therefore, the average person will be discouraged from NPCing -necessary- crafting items. This means crafters will be unable to craft as much without getting the mats for themselves. And this further means there will be less equipment for sale.

Problem 2: Mob Distribution
Unlike FFXI which had multiple starting-zones, FFXIV has one starting area per nation. This results in incredible lag as well as competition to claim mobs. As fun as the game is, no one enjoys spending 5 minutes to find something, only to die because of lag.
This does not improve as levels increase. In the open-beta people kept arguing that SE would change mob-distribution. And they did, but barely. For the most part nothing has really changed (except some agro mobs have been moved out of low level areas). This has resulted in a very poor first 10-levels experience, and will most likely turn a lot of non-mmorpg'ers off of the game.

Problem 3: Lack of quests/zones/immersion
FFXI and many other mmorpgs wrap the player up in their magical fantasy worlds, making them feel like -part- of the game. FF14 on the other hand doesn't. It has some nice "missions" but other than those I don't believe anyone has found any actual story-quests. When you started FFXI you could get like 10+ quests, all which had intricate storylines and interesting characters. Here there is just the main story, and the rest of the game seems to be grinding. And its a -long- grind between story-missions. Further, the token enemy-mobs are nowhere to be seen. FFXI had orcs, quadavs, and yagudo, roaming the starting areas. They presented a greater challenge than average mobs, and they created a sense of an enemy in the game. This game has no real enemy. The story is nice, but it seems like you won't see an actual enemy until level 20+. I have seen the beastmen in gridania, but only 1, and it was probably level 50.
Even more, the villages still seem pretty well useless as of now. They might be included in the storyline later, but they just seem to be there at this point. The game doesn't really get people to explore, or to learn the history of the land, or care about the world they are playing in. Rather it seems to be a very intricate grind-fest with very little immersion.
I can see this turning a lot of final-fantasy players off of this game very quickly (since final fantasy is all about story).

Other problems
There is serious lack of support/explanation from SE.
There are issues with launch and with bonus items (ex. ive had my ffxi account linked for a while and have had my account active since ffxi's launch, yet i didn't get the hermes shoes)
There is horrible lag around the first camps
There is no explanation about multiple retainers
The bazaar and retainer system is still VERY slow when you consider that SE intends an economy to form around it
People have been having issues with the payment program
There seem to be claim issues with mobs (prob due to the lag)
and probably many more

Once again, I don't mean to criticize the game, I think its wonderful. But many people admitted these were problems, and ignored them using the "its A BETA" argument. It's no longer a beta, and these problems seem to pose a serious threat to user-retention. So again, does anyone else find these same issues to be a problem? And do you think SE will fix them -before- they lose 100s of potential long-term players?




Problem 2 isn't really a problem. The only problem is people don't explore. There are PLENTY of lower level mobs spread out in the zones. Lower level mobs even in "higher" level areas. So yeah, you may have to travel a little and avoid some aggro but there is a plethora of lowbie mobs to level on.

I'll leave the other problems alone or to be addressed by other posters.

Edited, Sep 23rd 2010 3:25pm by Sasorex
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#3 Sep 23 2010 at 1:25 PM Rating: Decent
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#4 Sep 23 2010 at 1:26 PM Rating: Decent
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Square-Enix could personally send over someone to rape me and I would still play this game.
#5 Sep 23 2010 at 1:28 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Problem 2 isn't really a problem. The only problem is people don't explore. There are PLENTY of lower level mobs spread out in the zones. Lower level mobs even in "higher" level areas. So yeah, you may have to travel a little and avoid some aggro but there is a plethora of lowbie mobs to level on.

I'll leave the other problems alone or to be addressed by other posters.


Again the point was it will cause people to quit. Yes, there are more mobs, but new players are unlikely to run past high level stuff to find them. That's why quests were awesome in FFXI because they -got- new players to explore. This game gives you no real suggestions or advice on where mobs are, other than near camp-x
#6 Sep 23 2010 at 1:29 PM Rating: Decent
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I'm curious to know where these other starting areas are in FFXI? I count three, one for each nation, could the OP please fill me in where these other starting areas may be located?
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#7 Sep 23 2010 at 1:32 PM Rating: Good
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Seems to me you're comparing this game too much to FFXI TC. Out of curiosity were you there when FFXI launched in Japan? the economy always starts out the same in every MMO, everyone is clueless about it and everntually the pieces fall into place. Mob distribution I can give you that one but on my server near Gridania I'm not having problems with fighting over mobs - I do in Lominsa during closed beta the mobs were scarce but uldah and Gridania seem ok so far to me.

As for the "3rd problem" the game has stories and better told than FFXI imo - the quests are just centralized this time around so instead of going to the old hag to get the quest for "mary's milk", the old hag goes to the adventurer's guild and puts it up, and you go grab it there - as you get higher in rank the leves become better story wise and mob wise - + there are faction leves and behests which are also a step up from any quest in FFXI.
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#8 Sep 23 2010 at 1:33 PM Rating: Good
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FlixEffect wrote:
hi2unewMMO.


I'm sorry but that is no excuse for a company that already has a MMO currently out that has been running for 8 years.
#9 Sep 23 2010 at 1:34 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
'm curious to know where these other starting areas are in FFXI? I count three, one for each nation, could the OP please fill me in where these other starting areas may be located?


I started in San'doria. I could choose between exping from 1-10 in:
west ronfaure (sp?)
east ronfaure
Ghelsbis outpost (sp?)

Each starting area had 2 zones + a beastman strong hold that could be used to get to level 10 and even higher in.
This helped mitigate lag and didn't make it seem like 100 people were all in the same area.
West ronfaue alone had considerable more mobs than the entirety of the lvl 1-10 area in gridania.
#10 Sep 23 2010 at 1:35 PM Rating: Decent
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MMOs all develop over time. Additionally this was probably rebuilt from the ground up. FFXI has a lot of problem and lack of functionality. I can guarantee that SE learned a lot from FFXI, but it takes a lot of time to develop a game as massive as a top tier MMO.
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#11 Sep 23 2010 at 1:39 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Seems to me you're comparing this game too much to FFXI TC. Out of curiosity were you there when FFXI launched in Japan? the economy always starts out the same in every MMO, everyone is clueless about it and everntually the pieces fall into place


FFXI had an auction house. That means you could see what items sold for. Thats a HUGE difference from a retainer/bazaar system where people guess.
When you have an auction house equilibrium will develop fast because you have near perfect information on sales.
And my friend was there for FFXI launch in Japan. It wasn't great but it seemed more organized than this. Further, thats not an excuse since SE has 8+ years of experience. They should have foreseen the problems since they went through some already.
I'm an economist IRL. And the way this economy is supposed to work is theoretically inefficient. The economy -can't- develop properly unless every player develops a keen sense of how much things are worth. And without a search function or AH, there isn't any way to do that other than spam check retainers every day. and even there you can't tell what things sell for. So it HAS to be a guessing game, thats the only option. Unless an economy-forum develops (ex, people determine prices outside of the game)
#12 Sep 23 2010 at 1:42 PM Rating: Default
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Quote:
FFXI had an auction house. That means you could see what items sold for. Thats a HUGE difference from a retainer/bazaar system where people guess.


People don't "guess". If you, as a crafter, know how much time you spent making a certain peice of armor, and how much the supplies cost you, etc. etc. AND perhaps how much vendors are selling that item for, where its being sold in relation to where you're selling it, you don't have to "guess" you can set a reasonable price that would net you a good profit. Let me remind you Ragnarok online never had an auction house and that game was quite successful and people still playing it to this day.
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#13 Sep 23 2010 at 1:42 PM Rating: Decent
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UnusedName wrote:
MMOs all develop over time. Additionally this was probably rebuilt from the ground up. FFXI has a lot of problem and lack of functionality. I can guarantee that SE learned a lot from FFXI, but it takes a lot of time to develop a game as massive as a top tier MMO.


Developing over time doesn't matter if you lose half your player-base in the first 2 months. I'm sure these problems will eventuall be fixed. I just can't see how they aren't fixed yet after they were clear issues in open-beta and resulted in 100's of "this game sucks" threads.
#14 Sep 23 2010 at 1:43 PM Rating: Decent
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Azurymber wrote:
Quote:
Seems to me you're comparing this game too much to FFXI TC. Out of curiosity were you there when FFXI launched in Japan? the economy always starts out the same in every MMO, everyone is clueless about it and everntually the pieces fall into place


FFXI had an auction house. That means you could see what items sold for. Thats a HUGE difference from a retainer/bazaar system where people guess.
When you have an auction house equilibrium will develop fast because you have near perfect information on sales.
And my friend was there for FFXI launch in Japan. It wasn't great but it seemed more organized than this. Further, thats not an excuse since SE has 8+ years of experience. They should have foreseen the problems since they went through some already.
I'm an economist IRL. And the way this economy is supposed to work is theoretically inefficient. The economy -can't- develop properly unless every player develops a keen sense of how much things are worth. And without a search function or AH, there isn't any way to do that other than spam check retainers every day. and even there you can't tell what things sell for. So it HAS to be a guessing game, thats the only option. Unless an economy-forum develops (ex, people determine prices outside of the game)


For one, you're wrong, XI did NOT have an AH until one month in, as has been posted VARIOUS times. As such, even if it DID, when you start a mew game, the AH would be EMPTY. How much do I sell this for? What history are you going to check? You have to think for yourself if your starting out, and figure prices out.

As to your above comment about the zones, yeah, compare East or West Ronufare to a zone in xiv.
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#15 Sep 23 2010 at 1:47 PM Rating: Decent
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SolidMack wrote:
Quote:
FFXI had an auction house. That means you could see what items sold for. Thats a HUGE difference from a retainer/bazaar system where people guess.


People don't "guess". If you, as a crafter, know how much time you spent making a certain peice of armor, and how much the supplies cost you, etc. etc. AND perhaps how much vendors are selling that item for, where its being sold in relation to where you're selling it, you don't have to "guess" you can set a reasonable price that would net you a good profit. Let me remind you Ragnarok online never had an auction house and that game was quite successful and people still playing it to this day.


RO had a lot less items and a much less complex crafting system.
The problem with this game is not everyone is a crafter. The game seems to be designed for some people to be full-time crafters and some to be full-time fighters (ex. game only lets you have 8 leves overall)
A fighter has no way to know what to sell his drops at.
This means crafters will most likely have to use the feature that allows their retainers to purchase for them. But even then, i doubt most people will spend the time to browse through 500 retainers each time their inventory is full. So most items will be npc'd and crafters will lack crafting items (just like in the open beta)
#16 Sep 23 2010 at 1:49 PM Rating: Decent
Edited by bsphil
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Azurymber wrote:
FFXI had an auction house.
To be fair, FFXI didn't get an AH until a month or two after release in Japan.

I don't think that was a smart idea back then and I still don't think it's a smart idea now, but it is what it is.

Azurymber wrote:
I'm an economist IRL.
Well obviously you have no idea what you're talking about, because other random players with no experience on the topic will tell you all you need to know about how an economy will function in a MMO.

FlixEffect wrote:
For one, you're wrong, XI did NOT have an AH until one month in, as has been posted VARIOUS times. As such, even if it DID, when you start a mew game, the AH would be EMPTY. How much do I sell this for? What history are you going to check? You have to think for yourself if your starting out, and figure prices out.
Derp. That's an abnormally stupid comment.

Yes, the first person to sell something on the AH has no judge of value available to him, just as the first person to sell something in a bazaar wouldn't either. After that first sale on the AH though, everyone will have a record available of that transaction and will be able to take that into account. Once you get a few dozen transactions in, suddenly you've got a price established. The difference is in the record keeping, and that serves to stabilize the economy drastically quicker than a random assortment of bazaars could.

Edited, Sep 23rd 2010 2:54pm by bsphil
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#17 Sep 23 2010 at 1:50 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
For one, you're wrong, XI did NOT have an AH until one month in, as has been posted VARIOUS times. As such, even if it DID, when you start a mew game, the AH would be EMPTY. How much do I sell this for? What history are you going to check? You have to think for yourself if your starting out, and figure prices out.

As to your above comment about the zones, yeah, compare East or West Ronufare to a zone in xiv.


I didn't say FFXI had an ah right at the start. FFXI had considerably less items that ff14. And it doesnt matter if the AH is empty, it would quickly reach equilibrium. That is -SIMPLE- economics. People would guess prices but because the guess are RECODED they would quickly reach a price at which demand = supply. This system will take months for stable prices to arise. And by that time a lot of frusterated people will have quit the game.
#18 Sep 23 2010 at 1:51 PM Rating: Decent
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bsphil wrote:
Azurymber wrote:
FFXI had an auction house.
To be fair, FFXI didn't get an AH until a month or two after release in Japan.

I don't think that was a smart idea back then and I still don't think it's a smart idea now, but it is what it is.

Azurymber wrote:
I'm an economist IRL.
Well obviously you have no idea what you're talking about, because other random players with no experience on the topic will tell you all you need to know about how an economy will function in a MMO.


Im fine with your argument but theoretically explain to me how prices will come to be determined in FFXI's system.
#19 Sep 23 2010 at 1:54 PM Rating: Decent
Edited by bsphil
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Azurymber wrote:
bsphil wrote:
Azurymber wrote:
FFXI had an auction house.
To be fair, FFXI didn't get an AH until a month or two after release in Japan.

I don't think that was a smart idea back then and I still don't think it's a smart idea now, but it is what it is.

Azurymber wrote:
I'm an economist IRL.
Well obviously you have no idea what you're talking about, because other random players with no experience on the topic will tell you all you need to know about how an economy will function in a MMO.


Im fine with your argument but theoretically explain to me how prices will come to be determined in FFXI's system.
Second response was sarcasm.
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Almalieque wrote:
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#20 Sep 23 2010 at 1:55 PM Rating: Decent
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Azurymber wrote:
bsphil wrote:
Azurymber wrote:
FFXI had an auction house.
To be fair, FFXI didn't get an AH until a month or two after release in Japan.

I don't think that was a smart idea back then and I still don't think it's a smart idea now, but it is what it is.

Azurymber wrote:
I'm an economist IRL.
Well obviously you have no idea what you're talking about, because other random players with no experience on the topic will tell you all you need to know about how an economy will function in a MMO.


Im fine with your argument but theoretically explain to me how prices will come to be determined in FFXI's system.



No wonder the economy is failing.

And as people have explained, and explained, and EXPLAINED, base prices off of NPC prices, raw materials, etc. It's more work then most people want to run around and do (myself included, so I'm just exploring for now til things settle).

Explain how an empty AH would tell you what prices to sell things for? The same way they would now? WHAT A CONCEPT.

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FFXIV: Flix Skyfall (Behemoth) 50BRD: River of Blood for dayzzzzzz


#21 Sep 23 2010 at 1:56 PM Rating: Decent
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ahhh lol. my bad :p haha
and im not saying AH is the -best- idea either btw.
I think the best idea would be for SE to set up forums where people can barter. Just hard to do with multiple languages x_x
#22 Sep 23 2010 at 1:56 PM Rating: Good
I think 1) is going to be a huge problem and probably make the game fairly unplayable for crafters above low levels.
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#23 Sep 23 2010 at 1:59 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
A fighter has no way to know what to sell his drops at.


Good point.
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#24 Sep 23 2010 at 2:01 PM Rating: Good
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FlixEffect wrote:
Azurymber wrote:
bsphil wrote:
Azurymber wrote:
FFXI had an auction house.
To be fair, FFXI didn't get an AH until a month or two after release in Japan.

I don't think that was a smart idea back then and I still don't think it's a smart idea now, but it is what it is.

Azurymber wrote:
I'm an economist IRL.
Well obviously you have no idea what you're talking about, because other random players with no experience on the topic will tell you all you need to know about how an economy will function in a MMO.


Im fine with your argument but theoretically explain to me how prices will come to be determined in FFXI's system.



No wonder the economy is failing.

And as people have explained, and explained, and EXPLAINED, base prices off of NPC prices, raw materials, etc. It's more work then most people want to run around and do (myself included, so I'm just exploring for now til things settle).

Explain how an empty AH would tell you what prices to sell things for? The same way they would now? WHAT A CONCEPT.



No offence but take economics 101 for an explanation....
its basic supply and demand. Prices will move to equilibrium quickly based on how much crafters need the item and how many items are available.

People will guess prices. If they price too high their item wont sell and they will drop the price. The items priced too low will sell out fast. If all items sell out prices will be raised. Balance will be quickly reached and prices will stay somewhat stable assuming the supply and demand remain the same. If they change, equilibrium will quickly change and balance will be reached again. The joys of near-perfect information.
#25 Sep 23 2010 at 2:02 PM Rating: Good
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Azurymber wrote:


No offence but take economics 101 for an explanation....
its basic supply and demand. Prices will move to equilibrium quickly based on how much crafters need the item and how many items are available.

People will guess prices. If they price too high their item wont sell and they will drop the price. The items priced too low will sell out fast. If all items sell out prices will be raised. Balance will be quickly reached and prices will stay somewhat stable assuming the supply and demand remain the same. If they change, equilibrium will quickly change and balance will be reached again. The joys of near-perfect information.


Same things will happen on Bazaars - except people will only know for themselves.
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#26 Sep 23 2010 at 2:02 PM Rating: Decent
Edited by bsphil
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Azurymber wrote:
FlixEffect wrote:
Azurymber wrote:
bsphil wrote:
Azurymber wrote:
FFXI had an auction house.
To be fair, FFXI didn't get an AH until a month or two after release in Japan.

I don't think that was a smart idea back then and I still don't think it's a smart idea now, but it is what it is.

Azurymber wrote:
I'm an economist IRL.
Well obviously you have no idea what you're talking about, because other random players with no experience on the topic will tell you all you need to know about how an economy will function in a MMO.


Im fine with your argument but theoretically explain to me how prices will come to be determined in FFXI's system.



No wonder the economy is failing.

And as people have explained, and explained, and EXPLAINED, base prices off of NPC prices, raw materials, etc. It's more work then most people want to run around and do (myself included, so I'm just exploring for now til things settle).

Explain how an empty AH would tell you what prices to sell things for? The same way they would now? WHAT A CONCEPT.



No offence but take economics 101 for an explanation....
its basic supply and demand. Prices will move to equilibrium quickly based on how much crafters need the item and how many items are available.

People will guess prices. If they price too high their item wont sell and they will drop the price. The items priced too low will sell out fast. If all items sell out prices will be raised. Balance will be quickly reached and prices will stay somewhat stable assuming the supply and demand remain the same. If they change, equilibrium will quickly change and balance will be reached again. The joys of near-perfect information.
Adam Smith wins again!
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#27 Sep 23 2010 at 2:02 PM Rating: Decent
Azurymber wrote:
Quote:
Seems to me you're comparing this game too much to FFXI TC. Out of curiosity were you there when FFXI launched in Japan? the economy always starts out the same in every MMO, everyone is clueless about it and everntually the pieces fall into place


FFXI had an auction house. That means you could see what items sold for. Thats a HUGE difference from a retainer/bazaar system where people guess.
When you have an auction house equilibrium will develop fast because you have near perfect information on sales.
And my friend was there for FFXI launch in Japan. It wasn't great but it seemed more organized than this. Further, thats not an excuse since SE has 8+ years of experience. They should have foreseen the problems since they went through some already.
I'm an economist IRL. And the way this economy is supposed to work is theoretically inefficient. The economy -can't- develop properly unless every player develops a keen sense of how much things are worth. And without a search function or AH, there isn't any way to do that other than spam check retainers every day. and even there you can't tell what things sell for. So it HAS to be a guessing game, thats the only option. Unless an economy-forum develops (ex, people determine prices outside of the game)


When WoW first launched, the only auction houses in the game were in Orgrimmar and Ironforge, and there was no bazaar system at all. WoW is supposed to be the game that only immature net-kiddies play yet somehow Blizzard was able to straighten things out and appease them and look where they are now.

XIV is supposed to be the, "We're more mature and patient than everyone else" expat community from XI, and less than 48 hours into official (early) service, people are already whining about it like the game has been in service for a year.

Just as harmful as the features and systems that need to be added or adjusted are impatient/naive people acting like it's going to spell the end of the XIV world if SE doesn't fix it...like...yesterday. And then they spam up the discussion forums with their QQ..because that's really helpful.

Be patient.
#28 Sep 23 2010 at 2:05 PM Rating: Good
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The One and Only Aurelius wrote:
When WoW first launched, the only auction houses in the game were in Orgrimmar and Ironforge, and there was no bazaar system at all. WoW is supposed to be the game that only immature net-kiddies play yet somehow Blizzard was able to straighten things out and appease them and look where they are now.

XIV is supposed to be the, "We're more mature and patient than everyone else" expat community from XI, and less than 48 hours into official (early) service, people are already whining about it like the game has been in service for a year.

Just as harmful as the features and systems that need to be added or adjusted are impatient/naive people acting like it's going to spell the end of the XIV world if SE doesn't fix it...like...yesterday. And then they spam up the discussion forums with their QQ..because that's really helpful.

Be patient.
XIV is supposed to be for more patient people? I thought they were trying to push the game in a casual-friendly direction?

Either way, so WoW had a rough start as well and eventually solved things. SE has already run a different MMO of their own, they should not have to relearn these lessons all over again.
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#29 Sep 23 2010 at 2:10 PM Rating: Good
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If they added a nice search function for retainers, I would have no issue without having an auction house.
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#30 Sep 23 2010 at 2:11 PM Rating: Decent
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Olorinus the Vile wrote:
Azurymber wrote:


No offence but take economics 101 for an explanation....
its basic supply and demand. Prices will move to equilibrium quickly based on how much crafters need the item and how many items are available.

People will guess prices. If they price too high their item wont sell and they will drop the price. The items priced too low will sell out fast. If all items sell out prices will be raised. Balance will be quickly reached and prices will stay somewhat stable assuming the supply and demand remain the same. If they change, equilibrium will quickly change and balance will be reached again. The joys of near-perfect information.


Same things will happen on Bazaars - except people will only know for themselves.


Same thing won't happen with bazaars unless every player is willing to spend an hour a day checking them. Again, most people want to fight, go to town, unload goods, and fight. Not spend half the game trying to determine prices. Yes some people like me will know the worth of everything, and we will make serious profit (and i already have). But the point is the AVERAGE player wont, and they will probably quit because of it. That will also ruin the crafting system, which seems to rely heavily on drops of fighters.
So in the end until they fix it the game will have almost no serious trade. If you want to level a craft you will have to level a job alongside to farm your own goods.

and for the patience arguement.
Go on game faqs. People -obviously- do not have patience. Your own post prooves that since you said too many people post the QQ thing. I'm fine with this system, i find it really profitable for myself since i know how to manipulate economies. But I don't want to see 50% of people who buy the game dropping it in one month, and its likely that they will because of these problems. Also I don't like that FF14 has a horrible reputation now. Most people i talk to who know nothing about it say things like "yeah i heard it really sucks". I get some problems take time to fix, but when you design a game heavily based on the economy its logical to have a system that will at least eventually work. And this one will never work properly without some sort of change.
#31 Sep 23 2010 at 2:16 PM Rating: Decent
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Empty AHs have to start somewhere, true, but in most games you sell most of your drops to NPCs, buy simple gear from NPCs at low levels and use the AH to sell stuff to get more money but money that you don't need right away - at least at low levels. I got the impression in OB that I was supposed to be selling everything at bazaars and buying everything from bazaars, and I still had no sense of simply how much my money was even worth at that point.

This system just throws you right in. It made no sense to me and I'm sure it will only work for people who spend a lot of time on forums and use third party sites for price guides.
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#32 Sep 23 2010 at 2:24 PM Rating: Good
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Of all your options i'm mostly agreeing with number 3, although I don't think its coming from a casual gamer approach, but of one that played FFXI. Specifically talking about side quest NPC's. Which is something I really liked in FFXI that atm (please by all means correct me if i'm wrong) I haven't run into in FFXIV so far.

I personally like talking to NPC's, and even more so when you stumble across a quest one might have which tells a pretty decent story. I also feel that the smaller villages atm just seem to be there with no purpose, but hopefully that will change in some updates further down the road.

Edited, Sep 23rd 2010 3:25pm by Ipwnrice
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#33 Sep 23 2010 at 2:31 PM Rating: Default
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Problem 1 - wiki databases (and FFXIVAH when it gets populated) will be the ultimate equaliser. Nothing like information to level the playing field.

Problem 2 - SE must have adjusted exp/gain rate, because after barely doing anything other than 2 days worth of leves, I'm almost physical 10, Marauder 7.something. So no need to touch random mobs at early levels (unless you're grinding to the max).

Progblem 3 - Dude, is story something you really need under level 20? People would barely have upgraded from weathered starting weapons, let alone gotten decent skill sets and gear by that point. Chill, I can't remember ranting in FFXI about how I couldn't beat the shadow lord at level 20.

Other stuff - tl;dr go to lodestone website and use forums like zam.
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#34 Sep 23 2010 at 2:31 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Square-Enix could personally send over someone to rape me and I would still play this game.


Wanna let SE tag team us? bc i feel the same way. this is launch and dev team needs time to fix
the most pressing issues.

I do agree with the OP though about one thing, and that's the pymt and options systems on
SE's site other dev's made it way easier to get set up and going. Other than everything esle
will be ironed out . . . I hope :P
#35 Sep 23 2010 at 2:35 PM Rating: Excellent
The One and Only Aurelius wrote:
Azurymber wrote:
[quote]Seems to me you're comparing this game too much to FFXI TC. Out of curiosity were you there when FFXI launched in Japan? the economy always starts out the same in every MMO, everyone is clueless about it and everntually the pieces fall into place


XIV is supposed to be the, "We're more mature and patient than everyone else" expat community from XI, and less than 48 hours into official (early) service, people are already whining about it like the game has been in service for a year.


"Mature and patient" should not be code for "retarded."

But hey, you're right, people should be patient. They should wait to buy and play the game until it's worth buying and playing. Or maybe S-E just needs to be patient, and not release it until it's actually ready. Well, too late for that, obviously.

Waiting on content seems reasonable. Waiting on basic features is not reasonable. An auction house or search feature ought to be a basic feature of a game where crafting and player economy is such a major aspect. Kudos to S-E for making gathering and crafting classes more than just a sideline to the "real" game, but a huge raspberry for not having the basic common sense to realize how important information and access to goods are for having a meaningful and efficient economy. Using the WoW example, when WoW launched there were auction houses and mail and flight paths and a lot of other features that over time got improved and expanded and turned into what they are today. But that's not the same as if those things simply hadn't existed. People understood from basic human experience that these things were going to be important from day one.

If a game is good, you don't need to convince yourself of it. You just have so much fun playing it that you want to keep playing it to experience more of it. I'm sure there are plenty of people right now who feel that way about FF14 and good for them. But there are a ton of people who are actually just playing the game because they've convinced themselves that at some point in the future it will be fun, and they don't want to be on the outside looking in once it gets to that point. When the most prevalent argument in favor of playing the game is "be patient, they'll fix this stuff eventually" then that's a tacit admission that the game actually isn't that good right now, and you really shouldn't be playing it (or at least, shouldn't be paying for the privilege to help the developers turn it into a good game). S-E is taking advantage of a bunch of people who are so desperate for the hope that FF14 is eventually going to be what they want it to be, that they'll support the unfinished state of the game right now.
#36 Sep 23 2010 at 2:42 PM Rating: Default
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Holy crap the game just came out yesterday CE. They still have a week to go before the other copys start shipping out to the people that didn't want the CE.

I would give it atleast a freaking month before I started crying about how bad a game is or isn't.

lol FFXI has been dieing for 8 years and it's going strong. I don't see how this game will be any different after a few months.

**** from reading the forums people seem to enjoy it they are just upset about some of the little things that they seem to already know are going to have to change at some point in time.
#37 Sep 23 2010 at 2:48 PM Rating: Good
Edited by bsphil
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Dik wrote:
Progblem 3 - Dude, is story something you really need under level 20? People would barely have upgraded from weathered starting weapons, let alone gotten decent skill sets and gear by that point. Chill, I can't remember ranting in FFXI about how I couldn't beat the shadow lord at level 20.
Nice strawman. Not trying to argue that we should be able to complete the storyline before level 20, would just like to be a part of it. You could start the storyline missions from level 1 in FFXI, that's not even remotely close to the same thing as "beating shadow lord by 20".
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Almalieque wrote:
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#38 Sep 23 2010 at 2:54 PM Rating: Decent
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we all need to chill, bc all these comparisons are on MMO's htat have been out for a while

some sort of AH or search function will be implemented, and if not SE is smoking some good stuff
and i wanna be hooked up . . . . lol
#39 Sep 23 2010 at 3:02 PM Rating: Good
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you can't consider this game as purely an MMO though. Its a final fantasy, meaning lots of people who aren't MMO'ers will buy it thinking its like other FF's (just like lots bought FFXI and hated it). So a lot of people will be expecting a clean game. Not one with lots of flaws.
#40 Sep 23 2010 at 3:07 PM Rating: Good
Oh yea, I wanted to add that I don't think the current problems with the game will make many current players quit, if any. If you were willing to pay 25 bucks to play the game a week early and get shiny doodads, you're probably already pretty committed to the game. You'll either like it for what it already is, or tell yourself that it's going to be great at some point and stick with it until then because that's the only thing you want out of your MMO life.

The people that might quit are the ones who just see it on the shelf next week or the week after or the week after that, take it home, install it and then five hours later they're struggling to figure out what to do now that they finished their first Leve.
#41 Sep 23 2010 at 4:50 PM Rating: Good
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SolidMack wrote:

As for the "3rd problem" the game has stories and better told than FFXI imo - the quests are just centralized this time around so instead of going to the old hag to get the quest for "mary's milk", the old hag goes to the adventurer's guild and puts it up, and you go grab it there - as you get higher in rank the leves become better story wise and mob wise - + there are faction leves and behests which are also a step up from any quest in FFXI.


Yes but I NEVER EVER have read the description of a leve quest. Its just a big block of text. I skim over the requirements and rewards and decide if I want it or not. I've never read the block of text "story" to a leve because its VERY un-immersive, hardly story like at all imo and I'm betting a vast majority of players don't read most as you dont need to read that part to know what to do and where to do it at.

In xi there was that old hag talking and I was more inclined to read what she was saying, felt like I was really helping a citizen in the world since I met them face to face (and I think this is the bit that is hurting the immersive feeling in xiv, getting a block of text just doesnt immerse you in the world at all). It felt much more "storylike" in xi and we got little titles after completing quests for that person (each quest had a different title and people saw it when they checked you). Little things that make a difference.
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#42 Sep 23 2010 at 5:02 PM Rating: Default
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This is a different MMO than XI.

Simple as that. Their not the same, only have similaritys to give the players a feeling of nostalgia.
Look the deal is the games been out for what 38 hours? and people are ALL READY quiting because they cant find mobs?

i wasnt there for the release of XI but i can ***************** that no way in **** the mandys in windy would be able to sustain a population of... oh idk ONE THOUSAND!

Like it was mentioned earlyer, MMO's take time to devilope and this is still a baby. we have to teach it to crawl, walk, speak, eat, and go to the bathroom on its own ^_^
... that was all kinda a metaphore huh
#43 Sep 23 2010 at 5:10 PM Rating: Good
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I don't know if the problems will make people quit, but I do know that bad press has hurt it pretty badly.

G4TV flamed it to death when open beta was out. Tonight when they did the MMO report (every Thursday) the MMO report was about 45 seconds long and they did not even mention FFXIV. It was so short that it was like there really wasn't anything to report this week about MMO's. It will be interesting to see if they do anything next week when the regular edition is released.

I bring this up because it is the only cable access network that I can think of, that reviews games regularly on TV. Oh and Olivia Munn is hot...wish she would come back...
#44 Sep 23 2010 at 5:24 PM Rating: Decent
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I hope the problems don't push a lot of people away. I think it's a great games and it will get better. I agree with many of the gripes but never felt they were game breaking. Just lacking.

But that's my experience.

On the flip side I do hope the more whiny "i want this now" babies do quit forever. Mainly because they're most likely not people I want to interact with in the game world any way.

For the good people I do hope you can open your minds and give the game a chance and some more time. At the very least 1 week post of the 30th to make your decisions.

#45 Sep 23 2010 at 5:35 PM Rating: Good
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Dik wrote:
Problem 1 - wiki databases (and FFXIVAH when it gets populated) will be the ultimate equaliser. Nothing like information to level the playing field.


Can you explain to me how this FFXIV AH is going to be implemented when there is no AH in FFXIV?
#46 Sep 23 2010 at 5:57 PM Rating: Default
Quote:
Will the -many- problems make people quit?


Collector's Edition players? Not really.

Normal retail sales? Of course. You'll always get people who can't stomach the initial problems of an MMO and quit. And it's a loaded question to even ask as such.

Be realistic here. There hasn't been an MMO in history that has been released with all the bells and whistles. Does FFXIV have more problems than others. Yes and no. It's designed differently by intent, and that will automaticaly push away some, while attracting others.

Let's just briefly touch up on the generalized notes here.

Quote:
Problem 1: Economy

FFXIV so far seems to have been built from the ground up for the intent of players to provide for themselves, and meterials are not by any stretch of the imagination hard to come by.

So yes, people who are used to an inter-dependent economy will be put off until SE releaces some way to streamline this type of system. IF they choose to do so. Does it prevent FFXIV from functioning? Not at all, and honestly I'm interested how this will effect the crafter population.

Quote:
Problem 2: Mob Distribution


In FFXI each nation had 2 "Zones" in which you could walk into in order to level initially. However if we are comparing size and monster availability, FFXIV actual has FFXI beat. There are many, MANY more monsters and initial leveling options for players. They are, however, distributed wider, which means the player will have to go looking if the camp is crowded. But that does not mean those wanting instant leveling gratification are without hope. This is what the levequests are for, and there are plenty of them, especially if you take the time to walk to adjacent nations. If it's still not enough, you can always rotate them with friends to stack up rewards.

As levels go up, players will distribute thinner and the spawn rate of 'grind mobs' will become more proficient.

Also, it's a mistake to say the FFXI starting fields were actualy any better. Anyone who knows the NA replace times are completely aware of congestion points in the game. (Camping for Magicked Skul ring any bells?_ Anticipate that such bottlenecks to cause population densities to collect at certain points in FFXIV as well.


Quote:
Problem 3: Lack of quests/zones/immersion.


I have to ask if you've actually gone across the storyline quests yet. The quests provide great story and them in and of itself provide for the immersion, as well as the city zones. This get stunted a bit in the repeating in the field zones, but it actually gets you looking for UNIQUE areas of the game to awe and wonder at.

The lack of Zones is again, a misnomer, the current zones are fairly large to begin with, and I severly doubt the player-base has access to all of the current zones in the game, strictly due to how no-one is in the state to go through the "bridge troll" sections of the zones (Gridania has a northern brach that is currently inaccessible.)

Immersion itself really is false logic in any MMO. It only lasts as long as the initial "oooo" and that can be achieved in many ways. Most people end up slipping right into the grind to try to level their character and who cares about the 'immersion' in their view. Given SE,s track record for story-lines and development in games, people who've played FFXI are aware that it will come slow, but SE has some of the best stories to offer in the MMO community. Even if it's slow going to start, that's prety much a sure bet to come.

Quote:
Other problems


Nothing new out of a fresh MMO field. Aion, WoW, everyone has the start-up problems you listed, and Asian MMOs are notorious for difficult support structures from the companies.

All and all, none of these "Many" problems are big enough to severely hamper it's population. It'll only turn off the impatient, and those who had pretty much already decided to stick with their previous MMOs for other reasons. In the end, there's really nothing new here to worry over to any MMO veteran.

#47 Sep 23 2010 at 6:21 PM Rating: Decent
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This is getting really old.

If you like the game. Great keep playing.

If you have issues with the game but can see the potential. Cool, Here's the Official Feedback button, you're comments will get way more attention from SE there than they will on the forums.

https://support.na.square-enix.com/form.php?id=902&la=1&p=0&fo=288

If you don't like the game and just want to ***** about it. Please do us all a favor and @#%^ off already. I'm sure I'm not the only one sick of these dumb *** threads.


I will acknowledge the game has issues but I have faith SE will fix them in the coming months. They have been in development for 5 years and in their eyes the game had reached a level that was acceptable for a release so that it could start generating some revenue.

Let SE worry about the people that are going to quit. Its their game and their bottom line. It doesn't effect you in any way what non-MMO people think of the game. If they play for a month, don't like it and quit it is no skin off my back. There will be enough people that play to keep it alive just like there was with FFXI. It doesn't need to be the size of <insert generic MMO> to be a success.

Edited, Sep 23rd 2010 7:22pm by Cherbr
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#48 Sep 23 2010 at 6:47 PM Rating: Good
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Cherbr wrote:
I'm sure I'm not the only one sick of these dumb *** threads.


You definately are not the only one sick of these threads. If you're tired of them, don't read or post in them. When you post in a thread it gets bumped up to the top so it's the first thing you see, so posting in it is counter intuitive.

Don't let words control your emotions, most adults are able to do this because we don't want to add to daily stresses, and it's childish.
#49 Sep 23 2010 at 6:52 PM Rating: Default
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O.o there plenty of mobs, i had explored most of the areas at level 9 lol only got killed twice cause a fomon type looking mob shot m e for 2350 a hit lol. in the beta i had 20 differnt tele crystal from roaming around one nation to the next. i like the area where there was a sand storm forgot the name but the area was cool as ****.
#50 Sep 23 2010 at 6:54 PM Rating: Good
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Problem 2 isn't really a problem. The only problem is people don't explore. There are PLENTY of lower level mobs spread out in the zones. Lower level mobs even in "higher" level areas. So yeah, you may have to travel a little and avoid some aggro but there is a plethora of lowbie mobs to level on.

I'll leave the other problems alone or to be addressed by other posters.

no there are not and i have 23 pictures of acres, and acres of nothing but myself and empty land to prove it. ever go south east of uldah? youll see what i mean. you dont see a singl mob south east of ulda for about 5 minutes of walking until you come across mobs called sphene moblins or whatever which are uber high levels, which still means there are acres of even more land with no low level mobs to grind off of.
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#51 Sep 23 2010 at 8:18 PM Rating: Decent
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Probably won't make players quit, but a LOT of payers who would have played (like me) aren't going to bother until 90% of this stuff is fixed. I'll look back in 6 months, but I'm not about to spend money on a game that's ended a second beta phase.
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