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This game is way too hard.Follow

#102 Sep 27 2010 at 10:52 AM Rating: Default
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Why does everyone keep talking about having to level all the crafts? I don't understand why you can't find another crafted who specializes in a different craft to supply you? I understand it's a little awkward without and AH but trust me, there are a load of crafters of all types censoring their items just to keep the grind going.

You DO NOT HAVE TO DO EVERYTHING ALONE! We are playing a ******* MMO what's with the single player mindsight?
#103 Sep 27 2010 at 10:54 AM Rating: Decent
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xellosalpha wrote:
I also hate how they double npc price on every material. It made self repair equipment stupid sicne for example, marauder, the axe require 2 x bronze nugget to repair, npc sell the nugget for 1200 each, for a total fo 2400 while the weapon is around 1.4k... WTH. They remove undyed convas from npc in Uldah, which made serveral weapon or crafting tools impossible to made atm.


They need to make it so that the prices from certain vendors drop when things aren't bought and go up when they are like in XI.
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#104 Sep 27 2010 at 10:57 AM Rating: Good
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quote=Dik]There are massive synergistic benefits of joining a linkshell in this game.

As Aurelius is pointing out, there is a huge interdependence between ALL the disciplines, and the lack of one will interrupt the progression of another.

Last night, my ls buddy had materials but was too low ranked to craft his first gladiator shield. As I had the ranks but not the materials, I stepped in to help synthesise the shield. So I got rank ups, he got his shield.

The game model is designed so that you either become a jack of all trades, or you become specialised and rely on your fellow players to help you. Think of progression like this:

1) DOW/DOM hunt mobs for drops and crystals, earning rank and exp and GIL.
2) DOL gather for the HELM resources and crystals, earning rank and exp.
3) DOW/DOL trade ingredients to DOL to synthesise.
4) DOH crafts the armour, weapons and other ingredients.
5) DOH trade finished products with other DOH and DOW/DOM/DOW, and any excess that cannot be bartered is sold using GIL.
6) DOW/DOM/DOL get better gear to fight stronger mobs and get higher level materials and crystals...and so on.

Once people realise it's a fully integrated economy, progression will go MUCH faster, especially when everyone works together to keep moving the system forward.

Currently, the system is frustrated because the lack of AH slows down the speed of transactions. The best way around this is to join a linkshell and start helping yourself by helping others.[/quote]

Well said!

I have joined a linkshell that is put together mainly for crafting purposes and to help each other out. Each of us works on the specialties we want and we will share with each other what mats we need or help each other out by making items for each other. I think this is a wonderful idea and can't wait to level my particular crafting up to help for my share.

This game is based on community and teamwork. At first that bothered me because I do like to solo at times and get stuff on my own. However, now that I'm in there and meeting some cool people and such, I'm now really starting to have some fun and the leveling just comes natural when I'm not even trying.

OH YEAH. And I almost forgot about the fact that as you are doing crafting leves you get all kinds of material as well as patterns, all for free. And you get xp as you're doing it. To me it's worth it to just do those leves over and over to get good supplies. I just wish they had banks instead of retainers, and that you could just buy more space when you needed it, instead of having to bay RL money for extra "retainers". That and the fact you have to pay for each additional character you want to play would be my only real gripes on the game. I'm still enjoying it anyway though.

Edited, Sep 27th 2010 1:06pm by Mimotep
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#105 Sep 27 2010 at 11:00 AM Rating: Default
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They DO NOT want you using the NPCs. They want you to purchase from other players. Working. As. Intended.

People we are in day 5 of release. If you expect to be fully leveled by now or for the markets to be fully seeded with gear then you are dreaming. Slow the @#%^ down. Otherwise you are going to get bored one month in when you have everything At 50 never having spent a minute doing anything other than grind grind grind.

Edited, Sep 27th 2010 1:02pm by Wloire
#106 Sep 27 2010 at 11:11 AM Rating: Good
Mykha wrote:
Okay so to do that, I need to be a rank 6 blacksmith. No problem, went and leveled that up. Okay, so where do I get the supplies to make the sword? Well, I need to make a blade that requires me to be a rank 11 blacksmith to make. How does that make sense?


Just a thought, but let's say you decided to take up something like sewing/tailoring in RL. Would you immediately start out by carving buttons, sewing cloth from thread, smelting metal for clasps, etc, or would you go and buy the things you don't have the experience yet to make?

Modifying and putting things you bought together is much easier than making every little thing that really goes into a creation.

That is how it makes sense that you need to be higher level. What would you as a person think would be more complicated for you to do: binding a blade to a hilt or creating a blade from raw metals?

It sucks in game, but it makes perfect sense if you think about it.
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#107 Sep 27 2010 at 11:24 AM Rating: Good
Edited by bsphil
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Wloire wrote:
They DO NOT want you using the NPCs. They want you to purchase from other players. Working. As. Intended.
FFXI did this better (yet again). All basic level 1~10 armor was easily available from NPC stores and for very cheap. From there on out, the economy was player-based. It gave you a chance to get on your feet, but then allowed for the player driven market to take over.

Wloire wrote:
If you expect to be fully leveled by now or for the markets to be fully seeded with gear then you are dreaming.
Nice strawman, nobody is trying to argue that.

Edited, Sep 27th 2010 12:28pm by bsphil
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#108 Sep 27 2010 at 11:49 AM Rating: Good
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So am I one of the only people fine with the "No AH" or searchable wards? everyone in my LS is fully clothed. People who want shields have them without the 17k surcharges I see in shouts, and chainmail is our next stop. There IS gear you can craft at 0 skill and its not even optimun lvl 1 stuff either. I've done it many times. First time picking up a tool and sucess!

Just from regular game play/leveling/helm/leve's, I've had all the mats I could want to craft. The only thing I DIDN'T have is enough wind shards........

This involved alot of porting and meeting up with other LS members to exchange mats, parts, etc but it was doable. And let me say, I'm not a crafter but its extremly easy in FFXIV and practially free with leves. Extra stuff I made to level up sold out my bazarr while waiting on LS mates. It all seems to be working as intended to me. Your need to interact with folks.

I have zero interest in an AH or wards. I like crafting now. I do feel this game is pretty much making you have to craft as mentioned before (al la what to do when fatigue hits) but I'm ok with it.

#109 Sep 27 2010 at 11:59 AM Rating: Default
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bsphil wrote:
Wloire wrote:
They DO NOT want you using the NPCs. They want you to purchase from other players. Working. As. Intended.
FFXI did this better (yet again). All basic level 1~10 armor was easily available from NPC stores and for very cheap. From there on out, the economy was player-based. It gave you a chance to get on your feet, but then allowed for the player driven market to take over.

Wloire wrote:
If you expect to be fully leveled by now or for the markets to be fully seeded with gear then you are dreaming.
Nice strawman, nobody is trying to argue that.

Edited, Sep 27th 2010 12:28pm by bsphil


So why don't you find your local armorsmith or weaver and ask him to make you some armor? **** for the skillups he would probably do it for mats. Why do you NEED to buy from a vendor? You're right FFXI did have a great player based economy for a PVE game but it is not a true player based economy by a long shot. It's an Raid based economy where most of the endgame gear was a drop from some sort of boss fight. Even the best crafted gear required materials from a boss fight. The difference is minor, I loved FFXI's economy, but it is there. Everything is player based now, or atleast as far as SE seems to be saying, DoL sell the materials to DoH who build the gear, who sell it to DoW who outgrow it (And in the perfect economy break the gear permanently).

My definition of a straw man must be hazy. How is expecting the market to be fully seeded, with materials gathered by players, by day one a strawman argument? For there to be level 20 gear in abundance then crafters have to be at level 20+ using mostly materials found by gatherers at 20+ and to feed the population they have to be mass producing this gear which requires even more materials. Everybody in CE is leveling at the same rate as you, the crafters aren't glib to beat you to 20 for the most part and as such you will have to use lower level gear until production catchs up. The same problem won't be present for the level 20s from standard edition or PS3 launch.
#110 Sep 27 2010 at 12:07 PM Rating: Good
Edited by bsphil
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Wloire wrote:
How is expecting the market to be fully seeded, with materials gathered by players, by day one a strawman argument?
Man, you make this really easy.

Nobody is arguing for that. You're taking the current complaint that there is absolutely nothing easily available for brand new players (i.e.: no NPC stores for noob gear), and then making the false assumption that people are obviously demanding that everyone be a top rank crafter and have the market wards flooded with cheap pieces of every kind of gear. That's called making a strawman argument, you falsely represent the opposing side and then talk about why it's unreasonable.
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#111 Sep 27 2010 at 12:13 PM Rating: Good
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I don't have much time to play, and so far haven't gotten into a linkshell.

As has been mentioned, crafting a weapon or a piece of armour requires levelling several different DoH classes if you don't have access to other players who have levelled up their crafting classes.

While I can understand SE's ideal of getting a vibrant player economy from the get go, why can't they put in a few drops from mobs that would at least bridge the gap for players who would like to concentrate on playing DoW or DoM classes in the time they have available?

Yes, making player crafted items the only ones available is one way to go, but right now I'm not having fun. Just doing some blacksmith leves took far too long due to the laggy UI. It all seems overly complicated for something that, at the end of the day, should be about logging in and having some fun.
#112 Sep 27 2010 at 12:13 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
FFXI did this better (yet again). All basic level 1~10 armor was easily available from NPC stores and for very cheap. From there on out, the economy was player-based. It gave you a chance to get on your feet, but then allowed for the player driven market to take over.


If by better you mean the same then you are correct!

Starting gear is available from NPC. Most of the next sets are available as well. Just like in FFXI they come at a steep price.

Edited, Sep 27th 2010 1:17pm by windexy
#113 Sep 27 2010 at 12:27 PM Rating: Default
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Eltio wrote:
xellosalpha wrote:
I also hate how they double npc price on every material. It made self repair equipment stupid sicne for example, marauder, the axe require 2 x bronze nugget to repair, npc sell the nugget for 1200 each, for a total fo 2400 while the weapon is around 1.4k... WTH. They remove undyed convas from npc in Uldah, which made serveral weapon or crafting tools impossible to made atm.


They need to make it so that the prices from certain vendors drop when things aren't bought and go up when they are like in XI.


You make this so easy Phil. So instead of waiting for the DoL to seed the market he instead wants vendors to sell the mats needed at cheaper prices. Whether or not they follow a proper supply and demand model ,as did FFXI, the fact of the matter is you are still buying a NPC's goods instead of a players just because social interaction is too much work for you.

Should I start pulling up the other quotes where people are complaining they have to "level all the classes to build a basic weapon" because certain components are restricted to singular crafts? Guess what will ideally happen when the market fleshes out? Maybe I should bring up the quotes showing dismay over the "interdependence" of the crafting system? Sorry I probably stretched the argument by equating people complaining about not having the mats to build their items and the market not being seeded with components yet. My mistake indeed.

Edited, Sep 27th 2010 2:32pm by Wloire
#114 Sep 27 2010 at 12:34 PM Rating: Good
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FilthMcNasty wrote:
Perhaps you should write this in your cool journal you got for pre-ordering. Gotta squeeze that value out somehow.


Ah, so THAT's why it came with a diary. My shrink always tells me it's good for working out my frustrations...
#115 Sep 27 2010 at 12:35 PM Rating: Default
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So peopel ***** about bazaar prices of gear? Either make it yourself (tre goes two hours of time) or do some leves make two hundred k, some peeps want everything handed to them
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#116 Sep 27 2010 at 12:38 PM Rating: Decent
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I read in an interview they are thinking about adding some kind of global bazaar search. That would be a lot like an AH.

My buddy in WoW keeps dogging the game, saying it will never compare with WoW. I tell him that FFXIV will do fine, its a different game that appeals to a different kind of gamer. If you love wow, stick with it. I loved FFXI and so far I'm loving FFXIV, flaws and all.
#117 Sep 27 2010 at 1:13 PM Rating: Decent
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So the new problem will be how do we get to said bazaar/retainer. Hope airships and horsebirds open by the 30th, anima is running in short supply. I can see it now.... 10k surcharge to bring the goods to you!
#118 Sep 27 2010 at 1:40 PM Rating: Good
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So am I one of the only people fine with the "No AH" or searchable wards?



I'm fine without having an AH. I do want searchable wards though, only because not everyone in my LS is a crafter, and there are times that I have a hard time to find a certain material that no one in the LS has, and no one responds to my shouts in town.
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#119 Sep 27 2010 at 2:07 PM Rating: Good
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I am starting to become very discouraged with how I'm going to progress in this game. The entire game seems to center around a great deal of trading and bartering with other players, but at the same time the game makes that extremely difficult, with the poorly designed market ward, no mail system, and no zone-wide chat. I'm very frustrated, and considering canceling my subscription at the end of the month and waiting until some changes are made to the system


This is what I have been saying since CBT lol. Making a game so reliant on crafting system, then making the crafts so reliant on every other craft, then not having a search function for bartering is COMPLETELY game breaking for many players. I have always been a sort of crafter. Not a hardcore crafter but in between. I like crafting my own gear. I like helping friends craft some things. But I dont love crafting enough to level up every single craft in order to make 1 piece of level 5 armor.

FFXIV seems to be a game where you can literally spend your entire play time crafting. Crafting classes are literally "jobs" in FFXIV. I think this is really cool to be honest. But it cannot work properly without a search function for the retainers. Or an auction house. Otherwise it's nothing but frusteration and frusteration is the last thing I want to experience in a videogame.
#120 Sep 27 2010 at 7:18 PM Rating: Good
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Thanacus wrote:
Mykha wrote:
Okay so to do that, I need to be a rank 6 blacksmith. No problem, went and leveled that up. Okay, so where do I get the supplies to make the sword? Well, I need to make a blade that requires me to be a rank 11 blacksmith to make. How does that make sense?


Just a thought, but let's say you decided to take up something like sewing/tailoring in RL. Would you immediately start out by carving buttons, sewing cloth from thread, smelting metal for clasps, etc, or would you go and buy the things you don't have the experience yet to make?

Modifying and putting things you bought together is much easier than making every little thing that really goes into a creation.

That is how it makes sense that you need to be higher level. What would you as a person think would be more complicated for you to do: binding a blade to a hilt or creating a blade from raw metals?

It sucks in game, but it makes perfect sense if you think about it.


Here's the thing - realistic does not mean fun, and it does not mean good game design.

And it undermines your case that the crafting system is realistic and this is good when you make as many mistakes describing the process as you did above.

For example, one does not sew thread into cloth - it is woven. And this is something that it done by weavers, not tailors, which in real life are completely separate professions utilizing unrelated skills.

Tailors don't make buttons - that's not even part of their skill set - woodworkers and bone carvers make them. The same goes for clasps, which would be made by metalworkers. None of that is a matter of experience - no amount of skill as a tailor would allow you to make those things in real life.

Similarly, one does not "bind a blade to a hilt" - the hilt is an accessory, and it is mounted on the blade, or more precisely to the tang. And mounting the blade's accessories isn't part of a blacksmith's skill set; it's not part of any profession's skill set actually, because it's so ridiculously easy to do a trained monkey could do it - it's the kind of thing the end user is expected to be able to do.

And the realism argument is pretty much completely negated anyway by the fact that in real life, I don't need to be a better tailor to mend cotton than to mend hemp.
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