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Retainer/AH system pollFollow

#1 Sep 25 2010 at 7:24 PM Rating: Excellent
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To chum the waters, I thought I'd throw up a poll to gauge opinion as a percentage.

EDIT: Please read all options entirely before voting.

What are your thoughts on the current economy?
I think it is GREAT the way it is now. I love it and do not want ANY changes made.:5 (1.5%)
I think it is OKAY the way it is now. A few tiny changes would be okay.:13 (4.0%)
I think it needs a few minor tweaks before I would be content with it.:16 (4.9%)
It needs a major overhaul (such as searching) and retainers would be fine with me.:51 (15.5%)
I would be happy with searchable retainers, but I would SLIGHTLY prefer a traditional Auction House system.:37 (11.3%)
I would STRONGLY PREFER a traditional Auction House, on top of the retainers that we currently have, but I could tolerate searchable retainers in lieu of an AH:113 (34.5%)
I -NEED- a traditional Auction House, retainers be damned.:93 (28.4%)
Total:328


Edited, Sep 25th 2010 9:25pm by Mikhalia
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#2 Sep 25 2010 at 7:47 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
It needs a major overhaul (such as searching) and retainers would be fine with me.

I like this option, but I think they need to do away with the mass zombie farms.
There has to be some way of using retainers without having every single one on the server displayed at all times.

I think a good way to go about it would be to let you cycle through them one at a time.
You know, like how you cycle through characters to choose which one you will play in some games.
Then all they would have to do is give you an option to filter retainers by item and price.
#3 Sep 25 2010 at 7:52 PM Rating: Good
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Osanshouo wrote:
Quote:
It needs a major overhaul (such as searching) and retainers would be fine with me.

I like this option, but I think they need to do away with the mass zombie farms.
There has to be some way of using retainers without having every single one on the server displayed at all times.

I think a good way to go about it would be to let you cycle through them one at a time.
You know, like how you cycle through characters to choose which one you will play in some games.
Then all they would have to do is give you an option to filter retainers by item and price.


That would be kinda interesting, but I think that if they continue with retainers, the retainers should be customizable in appearance, rather than having everyone's retainer look like 100 other ones.
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#4 Sep 25 2010 at 8:11 PM Rating: Good
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So far ive made much much more money sitting with my bazaar open by the choice crafting stall(of which mats i have the most of) in Gridania when ive been AFK, than i have with my zombie lala wasting his days away in NPC prison.

edit: i voted for the much prefer auction house but would settle for a searchable retainer.

Edited, Sep 25th 2010 10:12pm by Zidaga
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#5 Sep 25 2010 at 8:17 PM Rating: Good
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I can't imagine searchable retainers resemble being anything other than a slow, laggy AH. But if thats the compromise we'll have to make with SE to have an economy, and let SE pretend their retainer idea was a good one, then I'll settle for that.

I actually like retainers as a replacement for the Moghouse, and to leave your bazaar open when you're logged out, but as the sole method of buying and selling, its pretty awful.
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#6 Sep 25 2010 at 8:28 PM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
That would be kinda interesting, but I think that if they continue with retainers, the retainers should be customizable in appearance, rather than having everyone's retainer look like 100 other ones.

Oh, I'm not saying I think they should keep the retainers, I just don't see SE acknowledging that the system is bad.
They have a long track record of going to great lengths to limit the negative aspects of something instead of scraping it or redesigning it completely.
I just don't see why they would want to congest the servers with all of those npcs; it can't be easier on the servers than using an auction house and I can't see any benefits to using them over the old system.

Edited, Sep 25th 2010 10:28pm by Osanshouo
#7 Sep 25 2010 at 8:45 PM Rating: Good
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I don't mind the retainer system if it gets tweaked a bit. You should be able to type a small amount of text to describe what you're selling, and that bubble appears over your head (Like Aion). If they don't do that, some sort of search system. I literally just spent 20 minutes looking for a Thaumaturge weapon and came up empty. This system as it stands is a complete waste of time.
#8 Sep 25 2010 at 8:54 PM Rating: Good
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Jeraziah wrote:
I don't mind the retainer system if it gets tweaked a bit... some sort of search system.


I have heard this sort of statement before, but I ask (similar to the way in which others have asked) the point of having a "searchable retainer system" in lieu of an auction house?

What can an AH do? See what is in stock, how much it is, and allow one to buy it instantly.

What can searchable retainers do? See what is in stock, make you walk to it, look for it, and buy it if it's still there.

A system of searchable retainers is just a massively convoluted, inconvenient auction house that makes you zone back and forth to get an item which could, in fact, sell out before you arrive to buy it! There is no use in adding myriad additional features to retainers just to end up with a discombobulated auction house. X_x



Edited, Sep 25th 2010 11:02pm by KaneKitty
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#9 Sep 26 2010 at 2:19 AM Rating: Decent
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I think they can stick with bazaars if they have 3 main improvements:

1. Make them searchable by item. Similiar to FFXI, let there be a menu, with submenus, and ways to sort the lists so that you can find the item you want quickly. A keyword search, or item search would also be nice.

2. Once you select an item, show all the items that are for sale in bazaars. Show how much they are charging, and how many they have available to purchase, and sort by price. For example:

List for earth Crystals
Player1 34 for sale 900 gil
Player2 13 for sale 910 gil
Player3 27 for sale 920 gil
Player4 84 for sale 930 gil

3. Make the items PURCHASABLE FROM A DISTANCE. I dont want to look up a price, and then have to find the person selling it in a crowded room full of 200 mules, only to find that they are sold out by the time I arrive. I want to be able to purchase the items from the same menu I look them up, and not have to worry about actually finding the mule.

That is basically what they have on Eve-Online, which is widely regarded as being one of the best market systems of any MMO. It isn't bidding in the traditional auction house sense because you can see who is selling what, for how much, but it is a valid way to run an economy. However, the thing is that if you are going to do this, and make the bazaars just like the auction system in Eve-Online, then why bother with the mules? Just make the auction system, and skip the mules altogether. All they are is just an excuse to charge players an extra dollar for additional storage spaces.
#10 Sep 26 2010 at 7:15 AM Rating: Default
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Searchable Retainers = ghetto AH.

It is an AH because sellers will make the offer and the lowest price will be purchased. A reverse auction.
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#11 Sep 26 2010 at 7:26 AM Rating: Excellent
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I don't think that SE has a good handle on what an MMORPG is. A lot of the things that they put in this game, and to some extent FFXI, seem to have been included under the assumption that there would be very few people playing (almost as if they think it's an offline game). This retainer system would be fine if there were only a handful of people buying and selling, but when you get into the thousands it just doesn't scale well at all.

What I don't understand is how SE can get away with ignoring every single bit of feedback over the last few months, do what they wanted to anyway, and people still support and defend them. I'm genuinely shocked that anyone even picked the first two options on that poll, but there it is.

There are so many broken things in this game - the controls, the bugs with battles, the lag, the fact that you have to go through multiple menus to do simple tasks (even shutting down is a whole procedure since there is no shut down option). This game isn't ready for a release. It just isn't, and they released it anyway.

SE - get your heads out of your asses. Seriously, just STOP.
#12 Sep 26 2010 at 7:28 AM Rating: Decent
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Two biggest gripes i had with beta

1) No exp for conjurer when healing
2) No hardware mouse.

Both fixed for retail release. Also UI is much less clunky now than beta.

I have some hope that some of the other issues will be fixed in time. We certainly do need an AH sometime very doon though!
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#13 Sep 26 2010 at 7:29 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
would be happy with searchable retainers, but I would SLIGHTLY prefer a traditional Auction House system.:


I picked that. If the added a AH like ffxi, be like ffxi, but if just added a search to the retainers, and able to buy from right there(instead of looking for it) you could always buy the lowest price onces. Instead of FFXI AH were u couldn't see lowest price, and just had to keep on guessing.

Edit: Didn't read post before me, but mostly what Randomstudent said.

Edited, Sep 26th 2010 9:31am by Zalongamer
#14 Sep 26 2010 at 7:45 AM Rating: Good
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HallieXIV wrote:


2) No hardware mouse.

Both fixed for retail release. Also UI is much less clunky now than beta.


I wouldn't call this mouse "fixed". There are no options to tweak it, and I tried using the keyboard and mouse a couple times and it's STILL just kinda "floaty". It's just too hard to control - I ended up going back to a controller. Maybe there is some switch that I need to flip to make it usable, but I don't think so.

The UI is slightly less laggy now that it's back client-side, but it's still nowhere near the level it needs to be to be considered streamlined. What makes it worse, is that SE is on this quest to make everything completely different from anything else out there that they have made it barely playable.

#15 Sep 26 2010 at 7:52 AM Rating: Decent
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Searchable retainers are just as good as an AH with the added benefit that I can occasionally look at a retainer and say to myself 'No way that's a goldfarmer'. In this instance, immature kids with Mi'quote retainers are good.
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#16 Sep 26 2010 at 10:41 AM Rating: Excellent
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Torrence wrote:
I don't think that SE has a good handle on what an MMORPG is. A lot of the things that they put in this game, and to some extent FFXI, seem to have been included under the assumption that there would be very few people playing (almost as if they think it's an offline game). This retainer system would be fine if there were only a handful of people buying and selling, but when you get into the thousands it just doesn't scale well at all.


consider that there are what, 10 stalls times 9 wards means that a total of 90 people can have a stall. If we assume a subscriber base of 9,000 people per server (which is HORRIBLY LOW), that means that one percent of people will get a stall. The people who have them now will be there FOREVER unless they willingly abandon their post.
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#17 Sep 26 2010 at 9:39 PM Rating: Decent
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I agree with pretty much everything said above. I went in today just to find some simple conjurer gear. After about the 20th seller (out of about 50) in one ward alone, I gave up. One could literally spend the entire afternoon going from seller to seller and this is pre-mass release at that. I think I'd rather level up my own crafters and go from there. At least I will know what I can make and just do it rather than search about 500 sellers every time I need something.

As for the retainers, I am mixed on that one. They can hold up to 80 items, which is quite a bit. It's the whole convoluted process of getting one and then having to call it that bothers me. Speaking of an 80 item storage, apparently if your inventory is full, you start to toss things, which is something I didn't like. My own mistake was not seeing the bag symbol in the bottom left corner in the smallest of icons and text saying I was 80/80.

Edited, Sep 26th 2010 11:48pm by LittleBoyBlue
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#18 Sep 26 2010 at 10:21 PM Rating: Decent
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Maybe we should start trying to make the Market system work. Someone made a google spreadsheet for the market wards. Maybe once this gets big people will start to assign different wards for certain stuff. First ward for armor and weapons, 2nd for crafters.

Also i think if SE allowed us to change the color of our retainers name then it might help more. Why? because then they can add a filter to what retainers we see. Blue names could = People selling Armor and Red could = crafters items. Maybe add symbols too.

Link to OP for market ward database
http://www.ffxivcore.com/topic/21268-item-vendoring-price-list-retainer-database/
#19 Sep 26 2010 at 10:27 PM Rating: Decent
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Well I think it's fair to say that the Devs developed retainer because of players. For those who didn't play FFXI players would pay another charcter slot then make a "mule", a character designed for the purpose of storage and selling. Not defending the current system, just wanted to give people the reason retainers came into being.
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#20 Sep 26 2010 at 11:15 PM Rating: Decent
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A search for items would be REALLY nice.
I spent 2 hours in creepy rooms filled with people un-moving searching for Fire crystals...when some one DID move it freaked me out!
#21 Sep 27 2010 at 5:11 AM Rating: Decent
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I would rather have a good retainer search then a AH where I can put up like 10 items a time
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#22 Sep 27 2010 at 5:24 AM Rating: Good
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The traditional AH system has worked - and worked effectively - for almost every single MMO before FFXIV. Why change what works?

As for the retainers, eh theyre a bank which is fine - but can i at least sort or alphabetize my items? categorize by craft? SOMETHING? jeez!

Edited, Sep 27th 2010 11:26am by Timorith
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#23 Sep 27 2010 at 8:06 PM Rating: Good
Y'know, if they added an option to search for a specific item and its listings I'd be more than happy with this. Something like this was in Phantasy Star Universe and it was decent enough. From your room you could do a search for a certain item filtering it by type, rarity, price, etc. and then choose one you wanted. There were no set prices, you just choose what you wanna sell it for and if it didn't sell, then you'd best lower it. Here's how it'd work in FFXIV.

Upon entering the Market Wards you're taken to a separate room where you can talk with an NPC. Doing so opens a search box where you can search for items depending on their type, price, color, etc. and filter out certain things. When you search it brings up a list of retainers and their locations in the wards. You find the one you want and it then teleports you to that ward. You find the retainer, buy your item, and you're done!

Incidentally I'd prefer something much easier as taken to an instance where the retainer spawns to you and only you allowing you to browse their wares. When you're done the retainer despawns and you're taken back to the main ward. But somehow I think SE is intent on keeping the market wards and everything set up as it is, I doubt they'll drop the rooms anytime soon. But if there's an option to at least search and get a full price listing and then teleport to where that retainer is then at least it may be bearable.

EDIT: Has anyone noticed or had issues with rating someone up or down on Alla's forums lately? Sometimes when I mean to rate down someone it rates them up instead, and vice versa. I just tried to rate up someone for something they said it did a rate-down instead. Sorry about that. Smiley: frown

Edited, Sep 27th 2010 7:10pm by SamusKnight
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#24 Sep 27 2010 at 8:31 PM Rating: Excellent
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I have an idea. Instead of going into the market wards, we could just talk to a receptionist at a window. And inside would be all the retainers. and you could just ask the receptionist what they had in stock, and she would give you a list. When you buy something, that persons retainer would give you the item. Then he would take your money, and give it back to his guy. Maybe even deliver it to a house they share.
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#25 Sep 27 2010 at 8:35 PM Rating: Good
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Osanshouo wrote:
Quote:
It needs a major overhaul (such as searching) and retainers would be fine with me.

I like this option, but I think they need to do away with the mass zombie farms.
There has to be some way of using retainers without having every single one on the server displayed at all times.


The mass zombie farms wouldnt be as bad if they weren't also being placed in dark dungeons. I hate the way the market wards look. They DO NOT look like an inviting place to shop at all. Really bothers me. Should be more light, and more open area. I envisoined it like shopping centers, maybe a round area outside (in an instance) with fountains and the market stalls set up but not in straight lines.

The wards are very very ugly. Damp dark dungeon.... who wants to shop there????

The system itself doesnt bother me much anymore and I voted the same option as quoted.
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#26 Sep 27 2010 at 8:41 PM Rating: Excellent
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Spartocus wrote:
Maybe we should start trying to make the Market system work. Someone made a google spreadsheet for the market wards. Maybe once this gets big people will start to assign different wards for certain stuff. First ward for armor and weapons, 2nd for crafters.

Also i think if SE allowed us to change the color of our retainers name then it might help more. Why? because then they can add a filter to what retainers we see. Blue names could = People selling Armor and Red could = crafters items. Maybe add symbols too.

Link to OP for market ward database
http://www.ffxivcore.com/topic/21268-item-vendoring-price-list-retainer-database/


While I applaud people for trying to make the best out of a bad situation, this is a fundamentally flawed concept. I frequently sell a wide range of items, I shouldn't need a new retainer for each category and/or classification of item I wish to sell.
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#27 Sep 27 2010 at 8:46 PM Rating: Good
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littler symbols near your retainers name indicating what your selling would be helpful for people searching, but I think a search system will happen sometime anyways
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#28 Sep 27 2010 at 9:02 PM Rating: Decent
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I voted:

"It needs a major overhaul (such as searching) and retainers would be fine with me.:"

The system could be improved IMHO adding 2 things:

- Auto retailer allocation (ward level): depending on which items your retailer has on sell, will be the floors he/she will be present, additionally change the ward levels to something more significant like: Weapons ward, Tools ward, Armors ward, Accessories ward, Alchemy materials ward, Blacksmith materials ward, etc.
Advantages: will be easier to locate items, retailers with no items for seal will be automatically unloaded, sellers won't need to get inside the wards to set their retailers which will decrease lag at some extent.

- Auto retailer allocation (inside the ward): it's cute and all to put your retailer wherever you want but that just bugs the pass and increases the difficulty while searching through them, to solve it, just reduce the size of the counters to 1/10 wide wise and make both walls full of those counters, then fill them subsequently as people set items in their retailers for sale (according to point one).
Advantages: it will be easier to navigate navigate and search the wards thoughtfully


In any case just an idea, any thoughts?

Ken
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#29 Sep 27 2010 at 9:24 PM Rating: Default
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How about this?

When you talk to your retainer in the market wards, you will have a "Help me find an item" option with your retainer.
It will then pull up an item list similar to FFXI:

Arms
Tools
Armour
Materials
Crystals

Now, you click on the Arms section, and you click on Bows. The list will now show all retainers selling Bows by rank. The list will also show you what retainer is selling it and with what part the ward it is in.

So for instance:
[Maple Longbow (RetainerX/Market Ward: Black Oak) 15,000 gil]

Once you find out who is selling the item, you can either:

1) Go to the ward and find the retainer to buy it from
2) Pay the 3% charge and have your retainer fetch it for you. The retainer will then put the item in it's inventory. (450 gil charge for a 15,000 gil item)

This will allow you to avoid the mess of finding retainers within heavily crowded wards, and SE gets to keep their retainer system. For the Materials section, it will be sorted alphabetically.

Edited, Sep 27th 2010 11:26pm by Aristio
#30 Sep 27 2010 at 9:27 PM Rating: Good
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Granted, I'm not playing until PS3 release.... but it seems to me most of the changes to the Retainer system just wind up sounding like an AH with stripped down features.... IMHO, they should just put the AH in, and let time tell which system works better. I have a sneaking suspicion that the AH would win big.

It seems like a complete waste to not be able to place your retainer at one of the camps as well. That's where people sat their bazaars often time in FFXI.
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#31 Sep 27 2010 at 10:40 PM Rating: Default
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Aristio, that is a fantastically elegant solution. Two thumbs up!
#32 Sep 27 2010 at 10:58 PM Rating: Excellent
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Aristio wrote:
How about this?

When you talk to your retainer in the market wards, you will have a "Help me find an item" option with your retainer.
It will then pull up an item list similar to FFXI:

Arms
Tools
Armour
Materials
Crystals

Now, you click on the Arms section, and you click on Bows. The list will now show all retainers selling Bows by rank. The list will also show you what retainer is selling it and with what part the ward it is in.

So for instance:
[Maple Longbow (RetainerX/Market Ward: Black Oak) 15,000 gil]

Once you find out who is selling the item, you can either:

1) Go to the ward and find the retainer to buy it from
2) Pay the 3% charge and have your retainer fetch it for you. The retainer will then put the item in it's inventory. (450 gil charge for a 15,000 gil item)

This will allow you to avoid the mess of finding retainers within heavily crowded wards, and SE gets to keep their retainer system. For the Materials section, it will be sorted alphabetically.


Or just cut the convoluted crap and make it an auction hou- *foams at mouth*

*collapses*
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#33 Sep 27 2010 at 11:16 PM Rating: Good
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KujaKoF wrote:
I have an idea. Instead of going into the market wards, we could just talk to a receptionist at a window. And inside would be all the retainers. and you could just ask the receptionist what they had in stock, and she would give you a list. When you buy something, that persons retainer would give you the item. Then he would take your money, and give it back to his guy. Maybe even deliver it to a house they share.


Why, sir, that is a most interesting and novel suggestion, brilliant even -- it is streamlined, easy-to-use, and extremely convenient; it smooths the otherwise jagged and haphazard system currently in place and delivers results with the speed and precision which heretofore could only have been the products of scientific revelry.

Would that you were on the design team, for such esoteric ideas as these -- and such an idea is certainly esoteric, for what sort of dunderheaded and scatterbrained team would, nay, could, ignore such ideas for any reason other than that they had not yet been conceived? -- should be delivered unto the development team's ears like harmonious, liberating music!

Since KujaKoF's post, the sarcasm level in this thread has been soaring!
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"Thus opium is pleasing... on account of the agreeable delirium it produces." (Burke para.6)

"I could only read so much for this paper and the syphilis poem had to go."
#34 Sep 28 2010 at 12:17 AM Rating: Excellent
KaneKitty wrote:
Aristio wrote:
How about this?

When you talk to your retainer in the market wards, you will have a "Help me find an item" option with your retainer.
It will then pull up an item list similar to FFXI:

Arms
Tools
Armour
Materials
Crystals

Now, you click on the Arms section, and you click on Bows. The list will now show all retainers selling Bows by rank. The list will also show you what retainer is selling it and with what part the ward it is in.

So for instance:
[Maple Longbow (RetainerX/Market Ward: Black Oak) 15,000 gil]

Once you find out who is selling the item, you can either:

1) Go to the ward and find the retainer to buy it from
2) Pay the 3% charge and have your retainer fetch it for you. The retainer will then put the item in it's inventory. (450 gil charge for a 15,000 gil item)

This will allow you to avoid the mess of finding retainers within heavily crowded wards, and SE gets to keep their retainer system. For the Materials section, it will be sorted alphabetically.


Or just cut the convoluted crap and make it an auction hou- *foams at mouth*

*collapses*


Seriously. Games 10 years ago had this and it worked great. I'm *guessing* that there are people out there who know how to code searchable databases. ****, I know how to code searchable databases. SE is one of the biggest RPG game makers in the world, not some fly by night operation, or so I thought.
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#35 Sep 28 2010 at 12:55 AM Rating: Decent
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The problem with searchable retainers is it simplifies searching for the lowest price. The retainer system is in part set up to make finding the best price for an item take more time, thus allowing the prices to fluctuate instead of only go down like FFXI's AH. They realized the old AH system made for a very weird economy, and so they are trying to go in the exact opposite direction.

I've already submitted my solution in another thread, but the short version is a series of icons above the retainer's name that show what types of items the sell, but not more specific than that. You'll be able to disregard many or perhaps most retainers at a glance when searching for a specific item, and that's good enough. I'll add that there should be fewer market wards, they should be larger and outside, there should be a greater number of smaller stalls, and you should not be able to summon your retainer right in the ******* middle of the walkway. In fact, you should have to target a purpose-made spot on the ground to summon your retainer, located at fixed distances apart at the sides of the area.

Oh, and I'd like to be able to see my retainer's inventory and check on my bazaar when I'm out in the field. We have magical linkshells that let us talk to each other from halfway across the world. Being able to communicate with your retainer is not particularly far-fetched.

I see what SE is trying to do, and I do think they can make it work, but I also think they should have made it work before release and possibly at the expense of several other fixes they actually did implement. I hope they get it right, but they really need to do it fast. Like two weeks fast. The retainer system is a mess right now.
#36 Sep 28 2010 at 1:07 AM Rating: Excellent
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DragoonRising wrote:
The problem with searchable retainers is it simplifies searching for the lowest price. The retainer system is in part set up to make finding the best price for an item take more time, thus allowing the prices to fluctuate instead of only go down like FFXI's AH. They realized the old AH system made for a very weird economy, and so they are trying to go in the exact opposite direction.


Then they learned entirely the wrong lessons.

RMT will ALWAYS be more able to capitalize on information asymmetry than regular players - so the more asymmetric the system is, the more susceptible it is to RMT control, and there is absolutely nothing you can do to remedy such a situation that will not hurt legitimate players more than it hinders RMT.
#37 Sep 28 2010 at 1:26 AM Rating: Good
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DragoonRising wrote:
The problem with searchable retainers is it simplifies searching for the lowest price. The retainer system is in part set up to make finding the best price for an item take more time, thus allowing the prices to fluctuate instead of only go down like FFXI's AH. They realized the old AH system made for a very weird economy, and so they are trying to go in the exact opposite direction.


Admittedly I stopped playing significantly a couple of years ago, but for the years I played FFXI as a trader I obviously had a very different experience of the auction house than you did.

I found the FFXI auction house to be really efficient at stabilising prices at an appropriate level. Yes, it was possible to manipulate prices in the very short term, but it didn't last long. The AH certainly didn't only reduce prices. How it worked is that if there was an oversupply you had to undercut to sell, driving prices down. However, if the AH had run out (indicating an undersupply), you could jack up your price.

Certainly margins on some items were extremely thin, but they were still profitable if you knew how to get the ingredients at the lowest price. As a cook, I always made a steady profit on meat mithkabobs, even in direct competition with the RMT. The AH drove the prices down, but not to below profit. This is how it is supposed to work.

What wasn't profitable in general was levelling a craft. This also makes sense from supply and demand. The huge number of items made for levelling lead to oversupply.

If a item looked unprofitable, almost always it was because one of: people were levelling on it giving massive oversupply; the item was just useless (FFXI had a lot of these) or you were missing a cheap supply of an ingredient (for instance, smart crafters could stock up from the regional vendors).
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#38 Sep 28 2010 at 3:16 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
It needs a major overhaul (such as searching) and retainers would be fine with me.:


I voted this. The game doesn't necessarily need an Auction House system. If all of the retainers sales were seeded into a large searchable database with fixed prices that would be fine with me. HOWEVER, the current system as it is does NOT WORK and is not practical for a MMO. Very frustrating, also.
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#39 Sep 28 2010 at 6:56 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
I voted this. The game doesn't necessarily need an Auction House system. If all of the retainers sales were seeded into a large searchable database with fixed prices that would be fine with me.



See that is an auction house. Its the same one that wow uses. Users put stuff up for the price they want to sell at. and people buy individual items, where they see who put them up. the only difference is that its the player name instead of the retainer's. Every addtional step you add to the process, such as making the searcher go find the retainer in the ward, just makes it a crappier auction house.
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#40 Sep 28 2010 at 9:41 AM Rating: Decent
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KujaKoF wrote:
Quote:
I voted this. The game doesn't necessarily need an Auction House system. If all of the retainers sales were seeded into a large searchable database with fixed prices that would be fine with me.



See that is an auction house. Its the same one that wow uses. Users put stuff up for the price they want to sell at. and people buy individual items, where they see who put them up. the only difference is that its the player name instead of the retainer's. Every addtional step you add to the process, such as making the searcher go find the retainer in the ward, just makes it a crappier auction house.


I'd have to respectfully disagree, I imagined that the auction house would work more or less like a real auction. I don't really see a bunch of retainers selling stuff in a large database as an auction, just a huge search-able shop. But to be fair, FFXI's "Auction House" doesn't work like a real auction house either.
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#41 Sep 28 2010 at 9:56 AM Rating: Excellent
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UltKnightGrover wrote:
KujaKoF wrote:
Quote:
I voted this. The game doesn't necessarily need an Auction House system. If all of the retainers sales were seeded into a large searchable database with fixed prices that would be fine with me.



See that is an auction house. Its the same one that wow uses. Users put stuff up for the price they want to sell at. and people buy individual items, where they see who put them up. the only difference is that its the player name instead of the retainer's. Every addtional step you add to the process, such as making the searcher go find the retainer in the ward, just makes it a crappier auction house.


I'd have to respectfully disagree, I imagined that the auction house would work more or less like a real auction. I don't really see a bunch of retainers selling stuff in a large database as an auction, just a huge search-able shop. But to be fair, FFXI's "Auction House" doesn't work like a real auction house either.


thats fine, I think we're just disagreeing about the name auction house. What I, and many others from the sound of it, want is a single place to go to see a list of all available goods sold. they could call it walmart for all I care.
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#42 Sep 28 2010 at 10:17 AM Rating: Good
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KujaKoF wrote:
UltKnightGrover wrote:
KujaKoF wrote:
Quote:
I voted this. The game doesn't necessarily need an Auction House system. If all of the retainers sales were seeded into a large searchable database with fixed prices that would be fine with me.



See that is an auction house. Its the same one that wow uses. Users put stuff up for the price they want to sell at. and people buy individual items, where they see who put them up. the only difference is that its the player name instead of the retainer's. Every addtional step you add to the process, such as making the searcher go find the retainer in the ward, just makes it a crappier auction house.


I'd have to respectfully disagree, I imagined that the auction house would work more or less like a real auction. I don't really see a bunch of retainers selling stuff in a large database as an auction, just a huge search-able shop. But to be fair, FFXI's "Auction House" doesn't work like a real auction house either.


thats fine, I think we're just disagreeing about the name auction house. What I, and many others from the sound of it, want is a single place to go to see a list of all available goods sold. they could call it walmart for all I care.


I think you're right about that, they're essentially both auction houses. I would call a "huge search-able shop" an auction house; I would call a "huge search-able shop" where you have to retrieve the item fir which you searched by foot a "slightly tedious auction house," but an auction house nonetheless.

It's funny, nobody in FFXI ever said, "it's nice to be able to bid on this item at the window, but I really wish they just gave me a <pos> so I could walk through a zone or two to get retrieve it myself, assuming somebody else didn't buy it, of course."



Edited, Sep 28th 2010 12:17pm by KaneKitty
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#43 Sep 28 2010 at 10:28 AM Rating: Good
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I still like some of the deals I've gotten on needed mats & other items because people didn't have that easy AH to check what the going rate was. Likewise with laughing and walking away from some of the outrageous prices people are asking. I just think with an AH, people who were about to sell something at a decent price can see the going rate and think "Wow, look at what that guy sold it for, well I deserve that much for it too." Others follow and that becomes the standard price everyone wants for it. The opposite works too though...AH can calm down some of those outrageous prices when there's a lot of the item and no one's buying.

That's not to say the system is great, but it has worked out in my favor quite a few times so far. And in some cases I think a central AH would've hurt me in a lot of those deals.

From that viewpoint, I like the bazaar/retainer system. For ease of use though, AH hands down. Those are the 2 factors I'm looking at. If they can improve the current system enough, I don't need an AH.

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#44 Sep 28 2010 at 10:31 AM Rating: Default
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TwistedOwl wrote:
That's not to say the system is great, but it has worked out in my favor quite a few times so far. And in some cases I think a central AH would've hurt me in a lot of those deals.
"I benefit so its good. If I don't benefit it's bad."

Deep.
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#45 Sep 28 2010 at 10:34 AM Rating: Decent
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*removed- redundant

Edited, Sep 28th 2010 12:35pm by robywar
#46 Sep 28 2010 at 10:41 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
I just think with an AH, people who were about to sell something at a decent price can see the going rate and think "Wow, look at what that guy sold it for, well I deserve that much for it too." Others follow and that becomes the standard price everyone wants for it.


that is counter intuitive to supply and demand, supplies can set prices all they want, but they can't make people buy. If someone sells a rank 10 weapon for 100k, and the next few people put theirs up at the same. Sure, some people will pay that, and some people will decide its out of their budget, and just keep leveling with what they have. The effect you're talking about really only occurs for early sells, before the market supply is steady enough to actually lower prices to meet demand.
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#47 Sep 28 2010 at 10:46 AM Rating: Good
which is why most games that are trying to economy have an auction house system. It allows for fairly fundamental free-market price controls through availability of information.
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#48 Sep 28 2010 at 10:53 AM Rating: Good
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Timorith wrote:
TwistedOwl wrote:
That's not to say the system is great, but it has worked out in my favor quite a few times so far. And in some cases I think a central AH would've hurt me in a lot of those deals.
"I benefit so its good. If I don't benefit it's bad."

Deep.


Many others can benefit from it too...
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#49 Sep 28 2010 at 10:55 AM Rating: Good
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TwistedOwl wrote:
Timorith wrote:
TwistedOwl wrote:
That's not to say the system is great, but it has worked out in my favor quite a few times so far. And in some cases I think a central AH would've hurt me in a lot of those deals.
"I benefit so its good. If I don't benefit it's bad."

Deep.


Many others can benefit from it too...



its zero sum, for every one person getting a great deal, theres a seller who sold below market rate. If that was his choice its one thing, but if he can't figure out what market rate is, its unfortunate.
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#50 Sep 28 2010 at 10:59 AM Rating: Good
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KaneKitty wrote:
KujaKoF wrote:
I have an idea. Instead of going into the market wards, we could just talk to a receptionist at a window. And inside would be all the retainers. and you could just ask the receptionist what they had in stock, and she would give you a list. When you buy something, that persons retainer would give you the item. Then he would take your money, and give it back to his guy. Maybe even deliver it to a house they share.


Why, sir, that is a most interesting and novel suggestion, brilliant even -- it is streamlined, easy-to-use, and extremely convenient; it smooths the otherwise jagged and haphazard system currently in place and delivers results with the speed and precision which heretofore could only have been the products of scientific revelry.

Would that you were on the design team, for such esoteric ideas as these -- and such an idea is certainly esoteric, for what sort of dunderheaded and scatterbrained team would, nay, could, ignore such ideas for any reason other than that they had not yet been conceived? -- should be delivered unto the development team's ears like harmonious, liberating music!
Since KujaKoF's post, the sarcasm level in this thread has been soaring!


Both of you are insane. I actually laughed out loud.
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#51 Sep 28 2010 at 11:18 AM Rating: Decent
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KujaKoF wrote:
TwistedOwl wrote:
Timorith wrote:
TwistedOwl wrote:
That's not to say the system is great, but it has worked out in my favor quite a few times so far. And in some cases I think a central AH would've hurt me in a lot of those deals.
"I benefit so its good. If I don't benefit it's bad."

Deep.


Many others can benefit from it too...



its zero sum, for every one person getting a great deal, theres a seller who sold below market rate. If that was his choice its one thing, but if he can't figure out what market rate is, its unfortunate.


See I still like that part of it. Unfortunate perhaps, but if a crafting item looks worthless to him so he sells it at a low price & I come by seeing it as valuable & buy it, who really lost there? He got some gil for something worthless to him and got my crafting item for what I'd consider a good deal.

I really like the randomness involved there...and SE seems to have a thing for randomness in this game...

Edited, Sep 28th 2010 1:19pm by TwistedOwl
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