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Regarding Heal Exploit, - OFFICIALFollow

#102 Sep 27 2010 at 10:16 AM Rating: Good
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Enscheff wrote:
So let me get this straight...

1. Thaums heal in groups.
2. Healing while under Guardian Favor gave more skill points than intended.
3. If a Thaum did his job in a group while under GF, he got more skill points than intended.

The only way NOT to exploit this would be...

A. Do not heal in groups, or
B. Do not do leves

Do I have it just about covered?

Does either solution A or B sound even remotely plausible?

So if you are a player that is trying to level Thaum and you did your job and healed your group during leves, you are now an exploiter that will be banned if you do not realize you are an exploiter and turn yourself in?

Man, I am so glad I decided not to buy this game after playing in beta. They fixed none of the problems everyone was complaining about, and they couldn't even fix an obvious "exploit" like this.

Is it really too much to ask for them to test skill point gains for healing while under GF?


You should read the thread. It has ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with a mage class doing their job. You are misinformed.
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#103 Sep 27 2010 at 10:24 AM Rating: Good
ShonaSeraph wrote:
I personally don't think it's right to suspend accounts for this.
How can you blame the playerbase for using a system that is available to them?
A rollback for the people who abused the system is enough.


A lot of people say that about every exploit encountered in any MMO. An exploit is an exploit and no intelligent person takes part in an exploit thinking it's okay. They know they're working a loophole. They know they're milking a system in a way for which it was never intended. And then when they get busted, they whine and cry that it was someone else's fault. Spamming cures on party members who aren't even fighting and earning rank points for it is a cheeseball way to progress a character and the people doing it knew it (or were particularly dumb). And the best way to send a message that milking exploits is not the way to go is to ban or suspend people.

Giving people the option to report themselves and volunteer for a rollback is a classy move on SE's part. This early in the game, SE doesn't want to be banning people in droves. Bad for business, as it were. At the same time, if all they do is investigate and roll back all of the class ranks that gained from the exploit, it sends the message that if you find an exploit, milk it while you can...the worst that SE will do is take away your progress. Compare that to suspensions/bans, where the people who did it find themselves either unable to play the game at all, or sent off into the corner for a couple of days and had their gains rolled back. And word gets around and all the other numpties on the fence about whether or not exploits are good start thinking maybe it's a bad idea.

There are people who will milk exploits even if they know they'll get banned, just like there are people who will commit crimes who know they will go to jail. There are an awful lot of other people, however, who are only prevented from exploiting by the risk of what happens if they get caught just like there are people who never break a law only because they don't want to deal with the potential consequences. Sometimes you need to send a message to keep the sheep in line.
#104 Sep 27 2010 at 10:27 AM Rating: Decent
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Well done Square, I'm shocked.
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#105 Sep 27 2010 at 10:37 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
The only way NOT to exploit this would be...

A. Do not heal in groups, or
B. Do not do leves

Do I have it just about covered?


No, and no. Both A and B do not do ANYTHING remotely close to the exploit. You need to add in an option C. "Do not have a party member engage a mob during a leve and not fight it, while everybody spams cure for 29 minutes while under GF so that when you kill the mob you gain a ridiculous amount of class exp."
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#106 Sep 27 2010 at 10:38 AM Rating: Good
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I too am happily surprised they are letting people own up to the exploit. Hopefully in the future this means they'll offer more of these get-out-of-jail-free cards instead of just mass banning people. It also protects people who truly stumbled across exploits on accident (if such people actually exist).

Well done SE.
#107 Sep 27 2010 at 10:43 AM Rating: Decent
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Enscheff wrote:
So let me get this straight...
1. Thaums heal in groups.
2. Healing while under Guardian Favor gave more skill points than intended.
3. If a Thaum did his job in a group while under GF, he got more skill points than intended.
The only way NOT to exploit this would be...
A. Do not heal in groups, or
B. Do not do leves
Do I have it just about covered?
Does either solution A or B sound even remotely plausible?
So if you are a player that is trying to level Thaum and you did your job and healed your group during leves, you are now an exploiter that will be banned if you do not realize you are an exploiter and turn yourself in?

Man, I am so glad I decided not to buy this game after playing in beta. They fixed none of the problems everyone was complaining about, and they couldn't even fix an obvious "exploit" like this.


Considering that either

a) You didn't read the thread and have a serious case of ADHD
or
b) your IQ is under 100,

I'm quite glad you didn't buy the game either.
#108 Sep 27 2010 at 10:46 AM Rating: Good
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Enscheff wrote:
So let me get this straight...

1. Thaums heal in groups.
2. Healing while under Guardian Favor gave more skill points than intended.
3. If a Thaum did his job in a group while under GF, he got more skill points than intended.

The only way NOT to exploit this would be...

A. Do not heal in groups, or
B. Do not do leves

Do I have it just about covered?

Does either solution A or B sound even remotely plausible?

So if you are a player that is trying to level Thaum and you did your job and healed your group during leves, you are now an exploiter that will be banned if you do not realize you are an exploiter and turn yourself in?

Man, I am so glad I decided not to buy this game after playing in beta. They fixed none of the problems everyone was complaining about, and they couldn't even fix an obvious "exploit" like this.

Is it really too much to ask for them to test skill point gains for healing while under GF?



Nope, not quite correct.

You can heal groups, this is not only acceptable, but encouraged. You can do leves, they provide an excellent source of EXP and Rank.

You can not exploit a game in a way that gives you an unfair advantage of other players.

Ways to identify if it is an unfair advantage:
Q1 - Can other classes do what you are doing?
1) If some: It may be an exploit
2) If yes: It is probably not an exploit
3) If no: It is an exploit

(See further explainations if 1 or 2)

Q2 - Does the "thing that you are doing" require a trick, or specific method for gain
1) If yes (and you answered yes or some above): it is an exploit
2) If no (and you answered some to question 1): it may still be an exploit
3) If no (and you answered yes to question 1): It is most likely not an exploit

Q3 - Does the "thing that you are doing" provide an endless return
1) If yes: It is an exploit
2) If no: See Above

Q4 - Does it require an outside program
1) If yes: It is an exploit
2) If no: see above

While this does not cover everything, this pretty much catches it all (anything it does not catch that is an exploit technically falls into Q3:P).

As for the trick in question:
It falls into Q1 A1, and Q2 A1. A.K.A. it's an exploit.

If you feel something doesn't feel right, you can always contact a GM and confirm it. An Exploit is very much a bug, but one that a player benefits from. SE wants to fix the bugs, and bugs will always be there (hopefully not for long). If people are willing to comment to SE about bugs that interfere with game play, they should feel equally about reporting ones that give too much. It many ways it takes as much away from the game.


#109 Sep 27 2010 at 11:43 AM Rating: Decent
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Deadgye wrote:
Quote:
The only way NOT to exploit this would be...

A. Do not heal in groups, or
B. Do not do leves

Do I have it just about covered?


No, and no. Both A and B do not do ANYTHING remotely close to the exploit. You need to add in an option C. "Do not have a party member engage a mob during a leve and not fight it, while everybody spams cure for 29 minutes while under GF so that when you kill the mob you gain a ridiculous amount of class exp."


Seems to me what you described is just a way to optimize the exploit, but it is still the exact same mechanic.

Is it not true that any Thaum healing during a leve would get more skill points than intended?

If so, is he not exploiting the bug?

If he is exploiting the bug unintentionally and doesn't realize it, should he be banned?

If he is not exploiting the bug, where is the "exploit threshold"?
#110 Sep 27 2010 at 11:46 AM Rating: Default
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Dreyhana wrote:
Enscheff wrote:
So let me get this straight...
1. Thaums heal in groups.
2. Healing while under Guardian Favor gave more skill points than intended.
3. If a Thaum did his job in a group while under GF, he got more skill points than intended.
The only way NOT to exploit this would be...
A. Do not heal in groups, or
B. Do not do leves
Do I have it just about covered?
Does either solution A or B sound even remotely plausible?
So if you are a player that is trying to level Thaum and you did your job and healed your group during leves, you are now an exploiter that will be banned if you do not realize you are an exploiter and turn yourself in?

Man, I am so glad I decided not to buy this game after playing in beta. They fixed none of the problems everyone was complaining about, and they couldn't even fix an obvious "exploit" like this.


Considering that either

a) You didn't read the thread and have a serious case of ADHD
or
b) your IQ is under 100,

I'm quite glad you didn't buy the game either.


I understand the exploit just fine. Unlike you, I am able to avoid the mob mentality, think for myself, and question whether or not someone that got more class skill points than intended should be punished as an exploiter.

Some would argue the ability to think for yourself is a better indication of IQ. You should try it some time.
#111 Sep 27 2010 at 12:15 PM Rating: Default
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Id have rather seen SE outright ban them, as even if they report themselves they will exploit something else. I think anyone who thinks exploits are fine are exploiters themselves. Really do you like to cheat? Anyone notice that the exploiters were mainly jp? (yes i saw parties of 15 jp cons/thms n Selbina)
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#112 Sep 27 2010 at 12:21 PM Rating: Good
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Enscheff wrote:
So let me get this straight...

1. Thaums heal in groups.
2. Healing while under Guardian Favor gave more skill points than intended.
3. If a Thaum did his job in a group while under GF, he got more skill points than intended.

The only way NOT to exploit this would be...

A. Do not heal in groups, or
B. Do not do leves

Do I have it just about covered?

Does either solution A or B sound even remotely plausible?

So if you are a player that is trying to level Thaum and you did your job and healed your group during leves, you are now an exploiter that will be banned if you do not realize you are an exploiter and turn yourself in?

Man, I am so glad I decided not to buy this game after playing in beta. They fixed none of the problems everyone was complaining about, and they couldn't even fix an obvious "exploit" like this.

Is it really too much to ask for them to test skill point gains for healing while under GF?




no. Healing and buffing in groups is encouraged. grouping 15 healers and not killing a mob while continuously buffing and healing as many targets as possible is exploiting. If someone gained an extra rank or two this way, its no big deal. If someone intentionally exploited this method of exp gain, they should come clean for the reduction, or possibly have their character wiped, which being that its week 1, seems like a fair punishment.
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#113 Sep 27 2010 at 12:25 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Seems to me what you described is just a way to optimize the exploit, but it is still the exact same mechanic.

Is it not true that any Thaum healing during a leve would get more skill points than intended?

If so, is he not exploiting the bug?

If he is exploiting the bug unintentionally and doesn't realize it, should he be banned?

If he is not exploiting the bug, where is the "exploit threshold"?


if you benefit from a bug during your normal gameplay thats fine. If you exploit a bug to get the most out of it, thats considered exploiting.
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#114 Sep 27 2010 at 12:49 PM Rating: Decent
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If you got more points on a leve by actually killing the mob at a reasonable speed you didn't exploit you got a bonus. If you sat there giggling with a thumb up your **** for 45 minutes spamming spells and ignored the mob to get more points blatantly you exploited.

Good move SE on the come clean and only get adjusted idea. Save a lot of player accounts that would otherwise have been banned. I love it. Let's face it if you can cheat at an mmo most people will. That is just human nature. Warhammer if you could glitch the castle 90% of you did. Who wants to be the guy who didn't and thus the only guy guaranteed to lose, right? I could go on and on with the examples but I think that is the most widespread I have seen. WoW LOTRO ROM AOC and others had similar at different points.

Some of you just got lucky... congratulations!
#115 Sep 27 2010 at 1:29 PM Rating: Good
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Remember when in FFXI they added an NPC vendor that sold an item for less than they would buy it back for?

Has nothing to do with the topic, but I still think that was pretty funny.
#116demegod, Posted: Sep 27 2010 at 1:43 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) soo heres what i dont get, banning healings for healing targets??? if nobody is getting hurt then there is nobody to heal so no SP gain, why ban people for intentionally letting there HP drop so that can "practice" healing to become more skilled at it!?! thats like banning a cfrafter for crafting the same item 9001 times or what about DoW standing there attacking the same mobs for hours on end, they are besically doing the same thing, just they need to wait for another enemy to respawn to gain more SP whereas a healer just keeps healing whoever is hurt!
#117 Sep 27 2010 at 1:46 PM Rating: Good
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demegod wrote:
soo heres what i dont get, banning healings for healing targets??? if nobody is getting hurt then there is nobody to heal so no SP gain, why ban people for intentionally letting there HP drop so that can "practice" healing to become more skilled at it!?! thats like banning a cfrafter for crafting the same item 9001 times


Read through the thread, as it's a lot more complicated than just "banning healings for healing targets". It's a clear exploit and people exploiting it must know that they are exploiting it to actually accomplish the exploit. It's clearly not how the game is intended to be played. To give people the benefit of the doubt SE is letting people fess up to prevent being suspended. They're also working on a fix to prevent this exploit while allowing healers to continue playing and leveling up as intended.

Edited, Sep 27th 2010 2:47pm by Hydragyrum
#118 Sep 27 2010 at 1:48 PM Rating: Good
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all they need to do is remove the chance to get multiple skillups from the same cast, so you dont have stoneskin skillup procing off all 15 people. Also, maybe put an exp cap on mobs, thats still higher than one would normally get, but would hinder any future exploits or loopholes
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#119 Sep 27 2010 at 1:49 PM Rating: Good
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I posted this in another thread but it applies here as well;

Why do people defending the "exploit" seem to think that regular or normal healing/buffing is the issue/exploit?

Partying up, doing a leve and killing the monsters was/is not the issue. Grouping up with all CON's or THM's, accepting a leve, getting your guardian aspect, engaging the leve mob(s) and letting them beat on your party for 30 minutes while you all spam buffs/cures is the problem. If this doesn't describe what you were/are doing then I don't think you really have anything to worry about. However, if this is EXACTLY what you were doing then don't insult my or anyone elses intelligence by playing dumb and saying you didn't know you were doing anything outside of the norm.

The only way any logical person would think to do that was if they KNEW they were about to do something that would give them an "abnormal" amount of skill points. I'd be willing to bet that if you knew meeting those requirements would net you "abnormal" amounts of skill points you knew **** well you were doing something that probably wasn't intended.

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#120 Sep 27 2010 at 2:53 PM Rating: Excellent
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For those of you who have abused this method, please report yourself through GM Call. By reporting yourself in, GM will correct the amount of skill point you have gained and the penalty to your account will be exempted.
Nice idea, I wonder how it will pan out.

Hopefully the fix will be a proper one, as opposed to wielding the nerf bat.
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#121 Sep 27 2010 at 4:49 PM Rating: Default
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Tenkuro wrote:
FilthMcNasty wrote:
SE just acknowledge that there is a problem in how skill points are accrued across various classes.


"We have confirmed an issue where players may be able to obtain abnormal amount of skill points while fighting in a party as Conjurer or Thaumaturge. The issue is currently being addressed.

They acknowledged that CONJ AND THM are able to obtain abnormal amount of skill points and states that there is a method to do it. How is that not an exploit? Please read the quote in context and not just bits and pieces of it. Obviously, if the CONJ/THM was leveling normally and killing the mob instead of healing a party that's standing around doing nothing, the exp discrepancy would not be so obvious. How can that player have two classes to 20, a crafter to 16 and various other classes to above 10 and only have a physical level of 26? I can sit here and do the math based on the exp chart, but I'm not going to waste my time. Anybody using common mathematical skills can see that it doesn't add up, especially with the fatigue system.


You're splitting hairs. The bolded statements are not verbatim, but mean pretty much the same thing. There is a problem in how skill points are accrued. The only reason this is considered an exploit is because it is a design flaw. It's not a big secret that this game is riddled with them. Duping items or game currency is an exploit. Obviously SE expected people to run off and kill their mobs within a few minutes and be done with it. Instead people found a way to maximize their skillups with favor. The system is working as intended, but to a higher degree than SE expected despite being warned in beta. They didn't address this issue then so people probably figured it wasn't a problem.

You don't need to try and do the math. I have no idea if healing has somehow been nerfed, but had you played these classes pre-maintenence you would understand that they received more skill points without the exploit. If you are in a group as CON or THM you're healing and buffing the entire party. The party is focused on killing only one mob. You have several targets vs their one which makes this possible. The fact that they were able to obtain more skill points and thus, higher rank for the same physical exp that you all get explains the discrepancy. To what degree? That is my question to you, especially considering the fact that you weren't aware of this and you have no experience at all from which to draw your conclusion. Leave the witch-hunt to SE.




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#122 Sep 27 2010 at 4:51 PM Rating: Good
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Im hoping that SE doesn't go too far with the nerf bat and the currently only 2 mage classes get left behind because of an oversight and people taking advantage of it.
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#123 Sep 27 2010 at 4:59 PM Rating: Default
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I'm suprised they reacted this way honestly, but I guess the thing with smn burning was it became heavily abused long into the games life whereas this is right at the start when they take offence the most. Also anyone that says SMN burning wasn't on the same league as this is retarded, at the time the norm for xp was around 2-5k? and hour WHEN you got a party for under cap groups(not meriting), with SMN burning you could go 12 to 75 in a few days doing absoloutely nothing, you just stood there and others did minimal work and you got massive XP in a few short minutes while you went to sleep if you wanted. It was huge amounts of XP at the time, people were literally shocked and in awe when you showed them it, not only that but people paid a lot of gil to be allowed in these groups.

If you think about this though, it's win win for Square... the kind of players that abused this if banned would without a doubt buy the game again, there is no way they can lose honestly lol They don't even have mass amounts of time invested to deflate their desire to start again, the game just came out.

It's kinda amusing however that they can counter something like this so quickly yet the glaringly horrible problems the game has just linger on and on and they say nothing lol
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#124 Sep 27 2010 at 5:33 PM Rating: Decent
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okay this thread is stupidely long so I didn't read all of it. But from what I gather, there are those that either exploited it and won't admit it (those are the ones upset by this) and there are those that saw it going on and are upset at group A.

I mean, as a conjurer, I have to heal people. I do levequests with other people and I have to heal my gladiator and anyone who pulls aggro. Even under a levequest, I would still only gain 100 exp here and 100 exp there. Doing this for hours would just bore the **** out of me for one, and ruin the game for two. I never understand why people would want to rush to the end cheating yes this is a cheat and then wait for everyone else to catch up in order to do end game things. Any of you that are defending this action, I'm not sure of your motives, but they certainly seem guilty to me. Healing people in parties provides good exp, but nothing spectacular until you exploit it. So continue to heal for the fight, gain a little exp, and let your damage provide the bulk of the exp.
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#125 Sep 27 2010 at 5:56 PM Rating: Decent
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Enscheff wrote:
So let me get this straight...

1. Thaums heal in groups.
2. Healing while under Guardian Favor gave more skill points than intended.
3. If a Thaum did his job in a group while under GF, he got more skill points than intended.

The only way NOT to exploit this would be...

A. Do not heal in groups, or
B. Do not do leves

Do I have it just about covered?

Does either solution A or B sound even remotely plausible?

So if you are a player that is trying to level Thaum and you did your job and healed your group during leves, you are now an exploiter that will be banned if you do not realize you are an exploiter and turn yourself in?

Man, I am so glad I decided not to buy this game after playing in beta. They fixed none of the problems everyone was complaining about, and they couldn't even fix an obvious "exploit" like this.

Is it really too much to ask for them to test skill point gains for healing while under GF?


Your post is correct with the exception of #2. It didn't give more points than intended. The problem is that SE never intended you to use these spells non-stop for the entire 30 minute duration of your leve and the guardian effect. It gave the correct amount of points assuming you fought and killed the mobs normally. What people fail to realize is that it benefits these classes regardless of the scale you use it to.

For example, your average group will attack and kill one mob at a time. For the tank and DD, they have only one target which they can use and skill up their abilities on. The mob you are fighting. For the healer in the group, you have yourself and however many people you can cram in your group as targets for your spells and buffs. More targets for your spells translates into more skillups. Even in a normal group that isn't exploiting, if you're trying for more skillups the opportunity is there because of the way the mechanic works. It works because of flawed design. Pointed out in beta feedback and ignored. /shrug

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#126 Sep 27 2010 at 8:06 PM Rating: Decent
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I don't agree with SE or the people that used it. But how is this different than getting a good tank and a few healers and rdm's in FFXI and skilling shield on high level crabs? Your not killing it fast and your gaining skill points? Just trying to undertand.

They may not have intended it, but I'm sure they didn't intend half the stuff they do in XI, it just happens.
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#127 Sep 27 2010 at 8:20 PM Rating: Good
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Rank is something required by the game in order to proceed with the game.

Skill points in FFXI just boosted your stats. increased weapon skill.

That's your difference.

Edited, Sep 27th 2010 10:21pm by FFLink
#128 Sep 27 2010 at 8:35 PM Rating: Excellent
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Elionara wrote:
I don't agree with SE or the people that used it. But how is this different than getting a good tank and a few healers and rdm's in FFXI and skilling shield on high level crabs? Your not killing it fast and your gaining skill points? Just trying to undertand.

They may not have intended it, but I'm sure they didn't intend half the stuff they do in XI, it just happens.
The circumstances are different.

If you wanted more shield skill ups in FFXI you must add more crabs, increasing the risk for the tank.

If you wanted more conjurer skill points in FFXIV you only need to add more people to the levequest, decreasing the risk for everyone.

In the eye of any reasonable person this will look wrong and balance breaking, ergo a glitchy way of cheating.

Now knowing SE and its long history of questionable judgment over glitches and bugs (looking at you Astral Burn), I can understand why some people took the risk expecting to get away with it, although I'm happy SE reacted the way they did.

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#129 Sep 27 2010 at 11:16 PM Rating: Decent
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I just wish theyd banhammered them with no amnesty. I saw 3 bots crafting today guess what I reported you Eny, Enytwo, Enythree Bahumut!
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#130 Sep 28 2010 at 12:01 AM Rating: Good
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Cool philosophy. Are they going to restore the experience/skill points/materials/time I've lost due to bugs, glitches, and crashes? Or do they only address issues that allow you to progress faster, and not the ones that slow you down?
#131 Sep 29 2010 at 2:05 PM Rating: Default
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Kkes wrote:
And besides. are you that much of a low life to see an easy out and just take it ?
Really? Wow wouldnt give any exploiter a job in RL. your heads not screwed on straight as a human being. I mean true colors and all that.
Actaully. To be a person of low moral in general .. I mean those who will or may get banned for exploiting will actaully be angry and feel they deserve a second chance. Think about the total mindset. Laughable.


Yes, indeed. Exactly this. Any healer who uses guardian aspect and heals in guildeves is of low moral character in general and should be banned. We should ban every last healer in FFXIV whose ever casted a heal spell under guardian aspect in a guildeve. ... .... ... Wait a sec. That's the role of a healer. To heal the party. Wow, that makes me of low moral character? because I didn't decide to grind mobs and guildeves solo and /sit instead of healing.

So true, totally, blame the healers for this one. Don't blame the fact that this was reported at least 20 times during the beta on the beta feedback boards and nothing was done about it by Square Enix.
#132 Sep 29 2010 at 2:07 PM Rating: Default
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SickleSageKiroh wrote:
To everyone trying to argue that it's even partly SEs fault, BS. That's reverse logic, no matter how well SE programs things people will ALWAYS try to find a way to exploit something, which is precisely why SE refuses to give us anything nice. They try to give us an inch and people take several thousand miles instead.


Rate down. They are preforming the most basic function of their job. Healing. To call healing parties an exploit while doing guildeves is what's really BS.
#133 Sep 29 2010 at 2:09 PM Rating: Good
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TwistedOwl wrote:
HallieXIV wrote:
TwistedOwl wrote:
So I'm only doing DoMs for fighting thus far, mostly I've been crafting. Got THM13 & CON12...did some healing in leves the past couple days. Do I contact the GM to see if some of my exp was from the exploit? lol

I don't think I did, but if there's a penalty of suspension & such involved I may try to check just in case...


As someone posted earlier, if you dont know you are doing it - then you probably aren't. It is only an exploit if you are deliberately exploiting.


Yeah it's pretty obvious I'm not trying to do that exploit...got a good 22 physical to go with that highest class of 13THM...been spreading it out. Just paranoid of SEs potential to penalize some of the innocent people along with the real exploiters...


yeah... do I report myself because I got some exp for healing? I hope their "fix" isn't to make it so healing gives no exp - because I find I already get crappier exp than melee.
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#134 Sep 29 2010 at 2:17 PM Rating: Decent
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Rinsui wrote:
And in reply to:
Quote:
The problem is... some people would have no idea they are doing anything wrong...

The same people very likely won't go around reading forums checking for possible issues with xp systems.

Random person logs in one day and their account is banned and they have no idea why.

Then better teach 'em.

Quote:
To someone who didn't play beta, and doesn't read forums (which is the majority of people), this could be 'working as intended'.


And, like, hardcore MMORPG EXP-grinders don't use the internet and forums, eh?

Edited, Sep 27th 2010 7:47am by Rinsui


That's the problem right there. It doesn't take a hardcore grinder to heal in a group. I know a lot of mmorpgs like wow, eq, etc where healers are played by fairly laid back individuals that prefer healing b/c they feel there's less pressure than creating 'max' dps or keeping aggro, organizing the party and managing threat. Really, joining a party, doing a guildeve and healing? If that's your definintion of 'hardcore mmorpg exp-grinders' then you really need to rethink your definitions.
#135 Sep 29 2010 at 3:32 PM Rating: Good
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also I was sad this wasn't an announcement that SE decided to deal with mobs that run back to their spawn point and heal to 100% 3-10 times in a battle. Or is that "working as intended?"
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lolgaxe wrote:
When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#136 Sep 29 2010 at 9:38 PM Rating: Decent
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EvaUnit01 wrote:
SickleSageKiroh wrote:
To everyone trying to argue that it's even partly SEs fault, BS. That's reverse logic, no matter how well SE programs things people will ALWAYS try to find a way to exploit something, which is precisely why SE refuses to give us anything nice. They try to give us an inch and people take several thousand miles instead.


Rate down. They are preforming the most basic function of their job. Healing. To call healing parties an exploit while doing guildeves is what's really BS.


They weren't *doing* the guildleve though. They had to get their party to ignore the GL mob and sit there taking hits from the GL mob while the healer spams spells.


EvaUnit01 wrote:
Rinsui wrote:
And in reply to:
Quote:
The problem is... some people would have no idea they are doing anything wrong...

The same people very likely won't go around reading forums checking for possible issues with xp systems.

Random person logs in one day and their account is banned and they have no idea why.

Then better teach 'em.

Quote:
To someone who didn't play beta, and doesn't read forums (which is the majority of people), this could be 'working as intended'.


And, like, hardcore MMORPG EXP-grinders don't use the internet and forums, eh?

Edited, Sep 27th 2010 7:47am by Rinsui


That's the problem right there. It doesn't take a hardcore grinder to heal in a group. I know a lot of mmorpgs like wow, eq, etc where healers are played by fairly laid back individuals that prefer healing b/c they feel there's less pressure than creating 'max' dps or keeping aggro, organizing the party and managing threat. Really, joining a party, doing a guildeve and healing? If that's your definintion of 'hardcore mmorpg exp-grinders' then you really need to rethink your definitions.



See above: Healing in group isn't the exploit. Telling your party to let the mob wail on them so you can rake in extra skill points from healing them for 28 minutes straight is the exploit.
#137 Sep 30 2010 at 3:11 AM Rating: Decent
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Humster wrote:
ShonaSeraph wrote:
I personally don't think it's right to suspend accounts for this.
How can you blame the playerbase for using a system that is available to them?
A rollback for the people who abused the system is enough.


Dude really hate to say this, but its "still their game" to control. (>...>


Which is true, but it's a two-way street, and it's perfectly acceptable for paying customers to expect things like fair treatment from the people they're paying. I'm not excusing glitching, but the punishment needs to fit the crime.

Does banning over this fit the crime? Maybe, maybe not, but "it's still their game to control" is a bit missing the point.
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#138 Oct 12 2010 at 6:32 PM Rating: Decent
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It's nice to see how Square Enix fixed this. ******** all the healers out of sp to the point its rediculous/pointless to team up with others. At the moment, if I am in a party of 4 ppl with 1 tank and the tank is taking all the damage, I can non-stop heal the tank(as is often necessary with mobs like ants) and end up with maybe 1 skill up for 60 conj skill points while my teammates all report skill ups of 300.

People might obviously say 'well duh, why don't you just spirit dart inbetween attacks'? and the answer is you can't b/c you dont have time. If you took the time to basic-attack or heaven forbid cast fire, the tank would have been hit 2-3 times with 400 hp damage and subsequently be dead. Thus, grouping now involves spamming nothing but cure which in turn results in little to no exp gains. So why group? For the 'extra 20% gil' for doing a rank 5 guildleve versus the non-extra 20% gil for doing a rank 1; all the while rank 1 gives you more conjurer points? Yes, b/c sacraficing leveling for a small amount of gil sure is worth it(not).

Last night I grinded for basically 3 hours with my ls mates on ants in that 4 party setup. The sp gained were 22k, 19k and 18k and mine 2.8k. I will admit, we all gained nearly identical amounts of physical exp but job-wise I'm rapidly getting left behind and won't have a reason to party with them anymore. AT that point, I'm back to ...soloing or healing with random ppl I don't know which for me would be all the more cause/reason to unsubscribe. Continuing to subscribe on the hope that I mighttt get to play with my ls mates when we reach 50 in 3 months doesn't seem that promising.
#139 Oct 12 2010 at 6:43 PM Rating: Decent
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I thought SE Fixed the Healer not getting enough skill points in Party issue with the 10/8 patch?
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#140 Oct 12 2010 at 9:10 PM Rating: Decent
JamesX wrote:
I thought SE Fixed the Healer not getting enough skill points in Party issue with the 10/8 patch?


Clearly not, all they did was nerf the amount of SP Conjurer gets from healing. Oh and the real fix? If the enemy isn't defeated by a set period of time you will eventually "leave combat" and forfeit all SP gained up to that point. Basically, the enemy keeps attacking you but its name returns to yellow. As soon as you attack again however it returns it to red. I found this out trying to skill up my shield one night. I attacked an enemy and let it beat on me for a little while defending. I got almost 200-300 SP for my Shield in that period of time.

Suddenly its name turns yellow and I see "You leave combat." pop up in my chat window. So I engage it again and kill it off. Result was a couple points in Conjury (From the attacks I did to kill it off.) and a severely reduced EXP amount. I don't know if continually attacking an enemy for the duration prevents it but I'd wager you have roughly 3 minutes maybe from the first encounter to finish your target before it forfeits what progress you've made so far.

That said, why did someone necro this thread instead of making a new one on the subject? Too late now I suppose...
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#141 Oct 12 2010 at 9:21 PM Rating: Decent
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EvaUnit01 wrote:
It's nice to see how Square Enix fixed this. ******** all the healers out of sp to the point its rediculous/pointless to team up with others... Last night I grinded for basically 3 hours with my ls mates on ants in that 4 party setup.
This.

Its pointless to play a dedicated healer in a group because you dont get SP for it. Perhaps though, thats the POINT? Maybe everyone should be self-curing as necessary and the CON's AoE heals should be supplementary? That seems like as bad a mechanic as any though - penalize the strongest healer for healing and make less-than-optimal heals suffice to keep a group alive?

Par for the course for SE.
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#142 Oct 12 2010 at 9:31 PM Rating: Decent
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Sir SamusKnight wrote:
JamesX wrote:
I thought SE Fixed the Healer not getting enough skill points in Party issue with the 10/8 patch?


I attacked an enemy and let it beat on me for a little while defending. I got almost 200-300 SP for my Shield in that period of time.


Now is that 200-300 SP for the fight?

The reason I ask is I always get "skill point up" messages during a fight, but they never add to my SP total

IE: In a fight I can get say 6 50 SP messages during the fight and get one 100 sp message when it dies but my total SP gained is only 100 in total instead of what should be 400

I'm thinking this may be a bug when SE tried to "fix" the conjurers
#143 Oct 12 2010 at 9:50 PM Rating: Decent
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EvaUnit01 wrote:
Last night I grinded for basically 3 hours with my ls mates on ants in that 4 party setup. The sp gained were 22k, 19k and 18k and mine 2.8k.


Wow that is horrible. Is there more data on this from other people with similar results?
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#144 Oct 13 2010 at 6:54 AM Rating: Decent
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~ If your tank is going to die in 2-4 hits I think you're in an area too high level for your party. I was in a party with my CON from 19-20 just the other night. As I was nearing 20, the Archer in our group was as well, he had a 2k Rank exp lead on me at the time. By the time we hit 20, not only did I catch up to him, but I actually passed him by 1.5k Rank exp. This is a period of about 5-6k exp gap to 20. During each battle, I would say I averaged 2-3 spells cast on the target, 3-4 Heals, and Dart spam. Which wasnt much, but obviously more than enough to get the job done quickly. Very fast exp. I made over 2 ranks the afternoon before in the same spot.
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