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Square Enix Conjures Up JusticeFollow

#1 Sep 28 2010 at 1:49 AM Rating: Excellent
How long did you think it would take for a large number of Final Fantasy XIV players to be caught milking an exploit? A week? A month? A year? If you guessed either of those, you'd be wrong -- it only took six days!

Fortunately, Square Enix responded quickly and appropriately. Justice has and will be served.

Read more about it in today's opinion piece.
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#2 Sep 28 2010 at 2:07 AM Rating: Excellent
Thayos wrote:
They did not react with a ruthless iron fist, nor did they react blindly and wildly, wiping away the accounts of anyone who cast cure as a conjurer.


While I agree with the general sentiment, I have to say that this part remains to be seen.

Don't get me wrong, I love a good mass banning (came back to FFXI just to lol at all the people who got banned from the Salvage exploit). Still, I'm not naive enough to think there won't be a few innocent people who end up caught in the crossfire.

And that's on top of the effect whatever fix SE puts out ends up having on the game at large. If I had any thoughts of flirting with a healing class this time around, those are surely gone after this.
#3 Sep 28 2010 at 2:07 AM Rating: Decent
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Good read, its cool that people will be given a second chance to play. But then again they should have known better. How obvious was this for the players that this was coming. lol, those parties I've seen levelgrinding stick out like a sore thumb.
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#4 Sep 28 2010 at 3:51 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
But if anyone is banned as a result of this recently discovered healing exploit – and yes, it was an exploit – then hopefully what we’ll remember is this:

Square Enix got it right.

Not quite. This was pointed out during the beta. Nothing was done to correct the issue and it persisted into release. If they had the foresight to see that players could make use of non-damaging spells for skill ups they would have caught it themselves. If they bothered to read their feedback they wouldn't have missed the second chance. Perhaps the third time is the charm?
Quote:
They will also get to keep their accounts – which isn’t a luxury Square Enix used to afford.

They can't afford to swing the hammer this early anyway. Not with a long way to go to fix the issues people are having with pre-release and certainly not with such strong competition set to release before the major wrinkles are ironed out. I'd like to think of their somewhat softer tone in dealing with this issue as an admission. I think they realize that the mechanic for gaining skill needs to be adjusted now and they can't be as stubborn about their ideas as they have been in the past.
Quote:
The first statement came in the form of a cease and desist order to the makers of WindowerXIV, which should tell people where Square Enix stands on the use of third-party tools.

The first statement actually came in the form of Windower for FFXI. People want two things: A clean and functional UI and the ability to make use of something that has been around for about 20 years now... alt-tab. Here we are 8 years later and SE doesn't want to implement it. People going over and around you to exploit is one matter, but people going over and around to make your UI functional is another. It is important to note that the latest exploit did not require the use of 3rd party tools...
Quote:
And to anyone who thinks the healing exploit wasn’t really cheating, then I offer these words of caution: The all-mighty banhammer doesn’t care what you think; and next time, the folks at Square Enix may not be so kind.

Next time the folks at Square Enix should spend a bit more time thinking about how the mechanics of their programs work. This entire mess can be summed up in two words: Flawed design


tl;dr
Bad programming is bad.
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#5 Sep 28 2010 at 3:58 AM Rating: Default
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We all know why SE is being all nice about this when in the past they have been merciless toward cheaters. They are afraid of bad press or reducing their early subscription numbers in any way and are thus willing to set aside their principles in favor of profit.

If this had been an exploit that popped up in FFXI last week the reaction would be "ban them all"



This has the stink of executive meddling all over it. I wouldn't be surprised if the dev team and STF were for banning them all but were vetoed by marketing.



Edited, Sep 28th 2010 7:07am by Lobivopis
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I thought of it first:

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10&mid=130073657654872218#20
#6 Sep 28 2010 at 4:01 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
They did not react with a ruthless iron fist, nor did they react blindly and wildly, wiping away the accounts of anyone who cast cure as a conjurer.


If they do this in the way they handled the salvage bans they will let things settle, let the people carry on playing then a month later hand out large scale bans when the investigation is complete, all the while people saying "lol they won't do anything they would lose money on subscriptions". No warning just "unable to login your account is terminated" and no way to talk to anyone about it. Thats how they they do their bannings. Wait till you are all relaxed and thinking youre safe them smack you out of nowhere and cut you off completely, refusing to have any dialogue about it though customer service.

At least this time they gave people a chance to come clean cause after they take action youre screwed they wont even talk to you, or if they do it will take 6 months to get anywhere.
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#7 Sep 28 2010 at 5:24 AM Rating: Excellent
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its better to let 10 guilty men go free than to convict one innocent man.

from years of playing FFXI i know SE has demonstrated time and time again that they do not follow this famous quote

#8 Sep 28 2010 at 5:27 AM Rating: Decent
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Thayos wrote:

...
A week?
...
you'd be wrong -- it only took six days!

lol
*no comment*

#9 Sep 28 2010 at 5:31 AM Rating: Default
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Ba1dw1n wrote:
its better to let 10 guilty men go free than to convict one innocent man.

from years of playing FFXI i know SE has demonstrated time and time again that they do not follow this famous quote



That's probably because it's not always the best pollicy. You wouldn't care who was innocent or guilty if something bad happend to you, you'd wan't as many people as possible to pay. No matter if they had anything to do with it or not. If you were to let 10 guilty people go free to protect one innocent, then you would just be opening the door for many more people to cause problems. It's a flawed idea either way.
#10 Sep 28 2010 at 5:47 AM Rating: Default
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Quote:

That's probably because it's not always the best pollicy. You wouldn't care who was innocent or guilty if something bad happend to you, you'd wan't as many people as possible to pay. No matter if they had anything to do with it or not. If you were to let 10 guilty people go free to protect one innocent, then you would just be opening the door for many more people to cause problems. It's a flawed idea either way.


Thank goodness no one like you is running our countr--


...nevermind.
#11 Sep 28 2010 at 5:56 AM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
The first statement actually came in the form of Windower for FFXI. People want two things: A clean and functional UI and the ability to make use of something that has been around for about 20 years now... alt-tab. Here we are 8 years later and SE doesn't want to implement it. People going over and around you to exploit is one matter, but people going over and around to make your UI functional is another. It is important to note that the latest exploit did not require the use of 3rd party tools...


It really disappoints me that SE STILL doesn't have it right. I completely disagree with you on their priorities, Thayos. While I'm all for making the game fair for everyone, I'm also for making the game playable for everyone. Perhaps if SE wasn't so **** bent on putting roadblocks up at every turn to keep people from progressing, we would see fewer people even looking for exploits.

Where's the article about SE conjuring up a usable interface? How about some better repop times? How about fixing the linkshell issues? What about the missing command line functions? Where's the article on cleaning up the menus? How about fixing the lag that will only get worse if more people join on regular release day? The targeting issues? The list goes on, and on, and ON.

No, they are worried about a handful of Thaumaturges getting to level 30, and Windower XIV. Those two things got fixed within days. The rest? Well, maybe next year at the Ps3 release.
#12 Sep 28 2010 at 6:04 AM Rating: Default
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ghosthacked wrote:
Quote:

That's probably because it's not always the best pollicy. You wouldn't care who was innocent or guilty if something bad happend to you, you'd wan't as many people as possible to pay. No matter if they had anything to do with it or not. If you were to let 10 guilty people go free to protect one innocent, then you would just be opening the door for many more people to cause problems. It's a flawed idea either way.


Thank goodness no one like you is running our countr--


...nevermind.


Yea, thank goodness noone that can point out the flaws in stupid ideas is running the country...
Also, what speed was the point going when it flew by you? Because you obviously missed it by a mile.

Edited, Sep 28th 2010 8:06am by Psyrecx
#13 Sep 28 2010 at 6:47 AM Rating: Decent
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Ba1dw1n wrote:
its better to let 10 guilty men go free than to convict one innocent man.

from years of playing FFXI i know SE has demonstrated time and time again that they do not follow this famous quote



I remember a book (I think it was by Arthur C. Clark) about a future where technology had advanced to the point that you could do things like build anti-matter bombs or deadly plagues and god knows what else with re purposed everyday technology. In that world you really couldn't risk anyone with criminal tendencies or mental instabilities running loose. Due process had gone out the window because the alternative was loosing entire cities and/or large chunks of the population every once in a while. The consequences of missing even one such person were too great to wait for someone to try to pull something so law enforcement had to be proactive.




Edited, Sep 28th 2010 6:40pm by Lobivopis
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Final Fantasy XI 12-14-11 Update wrote:
Adjust the resolution of menus.
The main screen resolution for "FINAL FANTASY XI" is dependent on the "Overlay Graphics Resolution" setting.
If the Overlay Graphics Resolution is set higher than the Menu Resolution, menus will be automatically resized.


I thought of it first:

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10&mid=130073657654872218#20
#14 Sep 28 2010 at 7:49 AM Rating: Excellent
Nice responses so far. A couple people have said that SE can't really afford to just ban people right now, to which I have to disagree. The majority of players probably didn't even know about this exploit, so even if SE banned all the guilty, it wouldn't have wiped out a huge portion of the playerbase. That said, there still would have been lots of bans, which could have caused soe backlash for SE this early in its new game. This response was the best way to dole out justice wwhile also extending an olive branch to players.

Also, I can't blame SE for fixing this before getting to other parts of the game. This was a prtty big deal. Also can't blame them for missing this on a beta feedback forum... and that's a pretty weak justification for trying to explain why this wasn't an exploit.
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#15 Sep 28 2010 at 8:18 AM Rating: Decent
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It will be interesting to see if anyone comes forward and admits to using the exploit. You can't cheat in an online game and expect no one to notice.
#16 Sep 28 2010 at 8:59 AM Rating: Good
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If only they had such prompt responses to other broken things in the game making it unenjoyable.

Like a Huction aouse.

Edited, Sep 28th 2010 11:03am by FeanaroOnPhoenix
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#17 Sep 28 2010 at 9:05 AM Rating: Decent
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FeanaroOnPhoenix wrote:
If only they had such prompt responses to other broken things in the game making it unenjoyable.

Like a Huction aouse.

Edited, Sep 28th 2010 11:03am by FeanaroOnPhoenix


What's a Huction auose? Smiley: rolleyes
#18 Sep 28 2010 at 9:06 AM Rating: Good
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Geffe the Meaningless wrote:
FeanaroOnPhoenix wrote:
If only they had such prompt responses to other broken things in the game making it unenjoyable.

Like a Huction aouse.

Edited, Sep 28th 2010 11:03am by FeanaroOnPhoenix


What's a Huction auose? Smiley: rolleyes


Nuffin :}
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There once was a tiger striped cat. This cat died a million deaths and was reborn a million times and was owned by various people who he didn't care for. The cat wasn't afraid to die... One day, the cat was a free cat, a stray cat. He met a white female cat, and the two cats spent their days happily together. Years passed, and the white cat died of old age. The tiger striped cat cried a million times, and then died. It never
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#19 Sep 28 2010 at 9:45 AM Rating: Good
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I am of mixed minds on this matter. On the one hand, it is clearly unfair that anyone should be able to have such a massive skill advantage so early in the game's life cycle. On the other, however, this exploit reminds me of nothing so much as Astral Burns in FFXI, in which a relatively small population of the game made exp hand over fist by exploiting the claim system. SE has since implemented a system for gaining exp even faster than Astral Burns could, but to my knowledge, they never moved against those that did Astral Burns. So in my mind, SE's precedent in this scenario is not to ban the players exploiting to get more exp, but rather to tacitly ignore it.

It should be mentioned I do not condone either practice, I was of the opinion that Astral Burns made for sloppy players that did not know how to play their jobs.


FilthMcNasty wrote:
Bad programming is bad.


Actually, sometimes bad programming is bad, but to me, this sounds more like a case of bad management is bad. More than likely, someone in the game design department looked at the comments from beta that: "Healing doesn't give skill" and "We hate diminishing exp". The response was easy enough to see: "You, programmers, add in exp for healing." Programmers: "But wouldn't that make it really easy to level a healing class?" Designer: "It's fine, healers need incentive to do their job. Besides, there would be a backlash if we gave them surplus and limited their exp per battle."
#20 Sep 28 2010 at 10:58 AM Rating: Decent
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出る杭は打たれる.
IF a nail stands out it is pounded down.
Yeah, this is the reasoning by Square Enix but it shouldn't be the definition of an exploit.

computers have some irredemable limitations based on the incompleteness theorem. Something cannot be two things at once, so, boundary conditions will tend to be the source of exploits (the dupe exploits are one example, running along a zone line to keep monsters from attacking you is, sort of, another).

Another limitation is that there can be bad programming.

I have not done this particular healing exploit. I have done the opposite. If a monster heals, you can hit it again and get more skills. I am fine with not having the monster do healing. I am fine with having there be a maximum amount of skill ups from a particular encounter (which it SEEMS to be already in place, I've never gotten 500 skill points in one battle). I'm not ok with saying, oh, the player did a good job, we have to punish that.

What next....? All those Ninja tanks are banned ? Pulling and kiting banned ? Leveling more than one level a day banned ?

(frankly, I think this tells worlds about the American versus the Japanese mentality)
#21 Sep 28 2010 at 11:02 AM Rating: Default
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To be completely honest, Square Enix are a bunch of assholes. If you don't believe me, ask the people who worked on Crimson Echoes. That said, I agree with their stance on this. People who used this exploit KNEW it was an exploit and that it was not working as intended. I don't think SE will be banning just anyone who got skills from healing. Besides, if any of you DID get a lot of skills legitimately from healing, I assume you are smart enough to at least notify SE and explain how you got them (grouping for leves).

I actually think it is justified to ban the offenders even if they admit to doing it. I know a lot will disagree with that, but as I said, they knew what they were doing and that it was wrong. No one is that innocent.

Edited, Sep 28th 2010 1:02pm by BartelX
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#22 Sep 28 2010 at 11:03 AM Rating: Default
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Quote:
Good read, its cool that people will be given a second chance to play. But then again they should have known better. How obvious was this for the players that this was coming. lol, those parties I've seen levelgrinding stick out like a sore thumb.


Totally agree, Ban them all. What I dont get is your playing a game!!!! to enjoy it.

Whats the point in playing DOOM just to have godlike on and wizz through the game?? completed? now what???

Alright perhaps if you played it 10 times and want to have a spot of fun with 9999 Ammo? but this is an MMO. I can understand certain things like FFXI windower to make certain things easier like knowing a distance to a mob, getting a /t or "you are being talked about".

but I honestly do not get it, you are not at all a good player if you are gaining things through cheating. You found an exploit? congrats. Now abuse it????

I have no sympathy to players who get perm banned for the above.
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#23 Sep 28 2010 at 11:07 AM Rating: Default
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Jigo wrote:

I have not done this particular healing exploit. I have done the opposite. If a monster heals, you can hit it again and get more skills. I am fine with not having the monster do healing.


I'm under the impression that everytime the monster heals your XP resets. I could be wrong.. read that somewhere.
#24 Sep 28 2010 at 11:21 AM Rating: Good
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Hulan wrote:
Actually, sometimes bad programming is bad, but to me, this sounds more like a case of bad management is bad. More than likely, someone in the game design department looked at the comments ...


Wouldn't that be bad design is bad? Honestly, designers make mistakes, sometimes the mistake is in the implementation, sometimes the mistake is in the logic. To be honest, it's unlikely that a programmer was even involved in this issue. Whatever proprietary tools used likely allow their design team to tweak the numbers manually.

I play a Gladiator and my girlfriend plays a Conjurer, one of the biggest issues in beta was that I leveled faster than her, even when I would often sit fights out using nothing but provoke to let her get additional skill gains. In larger groups against difficult enemies, it was often the best idea for her to simply focus on healing, because by the time she switched targets to get an attack off, another heal was usually already needed.

Giving no or reduced skill gains for buffs and heals is totally unacceptable, so it was the right decision to implement it. Of course, the difficulty is then that people will abuse the crap out of it.

Final Fantasy XIV currently has the same problem Final Fantasy II had, Square-Enix just like the Square of yesteryear decided to try a new approach, unlike Final Fantasy II which went without EXP in the favor of skill points, Final Fantasy XIV simply uses both.

The problem is, you have to use a skill to improve it, so classes that take more actions or use more skills end up ranking up faster. Just like in Final Fantasy II you force players to do odd and awkward things just to raise their skills, like beating on your own party members. Tanaka worked on Final Fantasy II so this should be a bit of nostalgia for him, after all, I think just about anyone who played FF2 abused the system.

Unfortunately, now it's an MMORPG, so exploits are taken seriously.

My question to those that knew about the exploit or have researched how healing skill gains are since then is - how bad is the nerf? Do you basically not get any skill for healing now? It would be very upsetting if once again I had to slow down purposefully just to let my girlfriend catch up. I don't mind doing it, but it's horrible that I have to. Healers already get crapped on the most out of any role in an MMORPG, don't make them feel like they're dragging down their friends SE! I know you think the skill gain is clever, reward players who take more actions by giving them more skill, but taking more action is rarely the answer.

In a long party, the healer should be conserving MP, and in a tough battle they should be focusing on healing. It seems like in both of these situations they get the short end of the stick.

Edited, Sep 28th 2010 10:27am by RamseySylph
#25 Sep 28 2010 at 11:22 AM Rating: Default
Im only a lvl 14 CON and i thought it was a little weird seeing some other mages get killed and then re-raise (lvl38?) back up.
Wondering how many high lvl CONs there are now and how quickly they leveled up and im struggling to level not only CON but a few other crafts for my gear, weapons and temporary farming to make some gil for supplies.

Hope this exploit gets fixed soon.
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#26 Sep 28 2010 at 11:59 AM Rating: Good
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I think this article gets a few things completely wrong.

Where I come from, a deal is a deal. You play by the rules and you win or lose based on that. In this case SE gave players a 30 min skill point buff and when people take advantage of the rules set by SE the company responds like kids in a playground. SE is saying "No! No wait! Do over, do over! I never meant to do that! We have to start again."

I know a lot of people are saying it is obvious that this is an exploit. How are we supposed to know how hard this game is going to be in the first few days? The first mob I killed gave me close to 500 xp (iirc). Am I supposed to put in a GM call to make sure this isn't a programming error? In ffxi you only get around 100 xp.

I understand that SE made a mistake and it is probably best for everyone if SE fixes it and adjusts the characters that took advantage of that error. But to label those players cheaters (remember they were playing by SE's rules) and to say SE is pursuing justice is to misconstrue what happened here. SE made a simple but important error in their flagship product and they should be begging our forgiveness. They are not holding out an olive branch as much as saying mea culpa.

I, for one, am a little leery now to invest a lot of time playing a game where the company will change the rules and ban people after the fact. The players didn't have to do anything strange like d/c in the middle of something or use a third party program, they just played the game. I keep thinking, it could have been me.
#27 Sep 28 2010 at 12:18 PM Rating: Good
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Downrange wrote:
The players didn't have to do anything strange like d/c in the middle of something or use a third party program, they just played the game. I keep thinking, it could have been me.


Which is why they're being offered a chance to turn themselves in. The problem with the wording of this article is that it implies that we should be thankful for what is an 'unexpectedly reasonable' response. I love Final Fantasy XIV, I loved Final Fantasy XI, and I love Square-Enix (mostly), but that doesn't mean you should lower your standards on what to expect.

Just because SE has been bad about exploits in the past doesn't mean we should parade through the streets when they react in a reasonable manner. The point is, the article is overzealous, it reads like Square-Enix has done something of immense and considerable charity to it's players - it should read like Square-Enix is taking tremendous steps forward to bring itself up to having reasonable reactions to exploits.

That being said, it's a subtle change in tone - and I think it already does an adequate job, after all it's more of an editorial than anything else, not a news story.

Most companies respond in completely irrational ways to players "exploiting" their game. Emergent play should be welcomed, in fact, designers should strive to make a playspace in which emergent play can exist. Unfortunately, online, the line between emergent play and exploiting is blurry at best, nonexistent at worse. I've seen people get banned in other games for emergent play that gave them absolutely no advantage over other players. That's no excuse for low standards though.
#28 Sep 28 2010 at 12:35 PM Rating: Decent
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This is the only way SE can protect themselfs. Japan is NOT known for the programing ability, anyone who played FFXI knows this VERY well.

However it is not the players fault and they cannot be held accountable.

I vote we let SE and Japan tell the FFXIV story, but leave the programing to the west... this is epic fail (FFXI) history repeating itself...
#29 Sep 28 2010 at 12:41 PM Rating: Decent
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So has anyone actualy been affected by this yet?
What time scale are we looking at before people get rank adjusted or suspended?
This guy http://lodestone.finalfantasyxiv.com/rc/character/status?cicuid=1081396 was mentioned in a topic the other day, he is still 30 con, 18 thau.
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#30 Sep 28 2010 at 12:46 PM Rating: Default
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Anybody defending the cheaters are likely cheaters themselves. I think SE shouldnt have offered amnesty as these people will likely cheat again. Its funny how some will defend cheating. If you dont like the banhammer from cheating go to WoW, I hear they turn blind eyes. But when you clicked the I understand and agree button on that TOS agreement you signed, you agreed to the rules. So dont complain now because you didnt read the rules.
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#31 Sep 28 2010 at 12:47 PM Rating: Good
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Square enix set up a system that was easily exploitable. It is not the fault of the player who took advantage of the system; rather the blame should be pointed at square enix for its incompetence and sloppy work. If they don't like the behavior, or it is becoming detrimental to other players, then regulate the system. Fix the problem they created, and move on from the fact some players got away with unscrupulous conduct. Any banning is only further evidence that square enix clearly lacks the aptitude to manage any player base. Square enix should not only be apologizing for it's scolding and threats, but should also apologize for its inadequacies.
#32 Sep 28 2010 at 12:54 PM Rating: Good
There are functioning intentions behind the programming rules to the game and while it may not be the players fault it is still unfair to everyone else.

I cant see anyone complaining for a fix in terms of no more exploit or bug, it must be fixed or just say goodbye to CON as most will level it via exploit and the whole game will be filled with capped CONs.

For those who have used the exploit, i can understand how it would suck if a level reset or some penalty restriction would be implemented.

Tough issue for us, SE, standard edition and especially PS3 players.
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#33 Sep 28 2010 at 1:21 PM Rating: Decent
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Anyone who claims they didn't know or think it was an exploit, is either purposely blinding themselves to the truth or their values of right and wrong have deteriorated to the point they no longer can tell the difference from right and wrong. This seems very common to me in our day and age. People using feel-good self-justification to aleviate themselves of first guilt and then wrong doing. An important element people forget far too often is that just because something is "legal" does not make it right.

Consider this: You are walking behind a man who drops a $5.00 bill. If you pick it up and keep it, its not really unlawful but it is awfully immoral. However, I know there are many that would use the rule of "finders keepers". So again, I hate to break it to some people and get all preachy-sounding, but you know when you are doing wrong and a legal loophole or oversight doesn't justify it.

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#34 Sep 28 2010 at 2:06 PM Rating: Excellent
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Downrange wrote:
The players didn't have to do anything strange like d/c in the middle of something or use a third party program, they just played the game. I keep thinking, it could have been me.


This. I have no idea whether strange things in a brand new game are working as intended or not, I can only assume that what the game allows me to do is either intended or will be fixed in updates by the developer if it's not what they intended. You create the game rules, S-E. FIX THEM if you don't like what players can do in the game you created due to design oversights.

People who are installing 3rd party programs or abusing disconnects know what they're doing and that's different. Anyone could stumble onto this skillup method. Or they could be a brand new player who observes or gets in a group and learns about the method - maybe it's a little naive, but is that very odd in a brand new MMO designed to attract a lot of new players? Those people might still not even realize this skillup method is causing drama.

I also have issue with S-E's announcement of this "amnesty" program, because not everyone obsesses over stuff like message boards (as is plainly evident from playing with a lot of clueless people). But even they could stumble onto this tactic - it's not that hard to do. If anything, if there IS a warning they **** well better put it at the login screen and not rely on word of mouth to let people know they're even doing something wrong.

And it's not as if S-E has never made game systems that have similar bizarre mechanics. How does anyone know this is not just another quirky system working as intended? In the offline realm, this doesn't strike me as much different than Final Fantasy II (with the same kind of skillup grinding at issue here) or the tedious spell drawing in Final Fantasy VIII. Even for veterans of XI, Astral Burns are apparently fine even though it's pretty surely a way of manipulating the level sync system in an unintended way. We're getting to the point where S-E is so hard to read that we can't tell if their programming and design flaws are intended or not - when Abyssea was new and people started figuring out how to get massive exp for alliance parties with nearly infinite time, one of the first reactions I saw by many people was fear that they'd get caught "abusing" the system. And this was regarding a main feature of a significant expansion!

But anyway, I assume this will be fixed when I come back to XIV. For now it's just such garbage that I'm perfectly happy to stay in XI once my free 30 days runs out. Send me a /tell when there's an AH or search system so the economy isn't crippled, S-E fixes major bugs ("The target is already engaged") and design oversights (this skillup issue), my chat doesn't get wiped out by simple things like crafting/fishing, etc.

Edited, Sep 28th 2010 5:33pm by Anza
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#35 Sep 28 2010 at 3:43 PM Rating: Decent
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Jigo wrote:
Pulling and kiting banned


Well pinning is considered an exploit by SE now.
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I thought of it first:

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10&mid=130073657654872218#20
#36 Sep 28 2010 at 3:55 PM Rating: Excellent
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thehellfire wrote:
Anybody defending the cheaters are likely cheaters themselves. I think SE shouldnt have offered amnesty as these people will likely cheat again. Its funny how some will defend cheating. If you dont like the banhammer from cheating go to WoW, I hear they turn blind eyes. But when you clicked the I understand and agree button on that TOS agreement you signed, you agreed to the rules. So dont complain now because you didnt read the rules.


I seriously don't think it's possible for you to not make some halfass rant towards WoW in a single post of yours. The fact that you're entirely incorrect shows how foolish moronic your statement is.

Good to know that 'ol "mature" filter is working for FFXIV, eh?

Anza wrote:
And it's not as if S-E has never made game systems that have similar bizarre mechanics. How does anyone know this is not just another quirky system working as intended? In the offline realm, this doesn't strike me as much different than Final Fantasy II (with the same kind of skillup grinding at issue here) or the tedious spell drawing in Final Fantasy VIII. Even for veterans of XI, Astral Burns are apparently fine even though it's pretty surely a way of manipulating the level sync system in an unintended way. We're getting to the point where S-E is so hard to read that we can't tell if their programming and design flaws are intended or not - when Abyssea was new and people started figuring out how to get massive exp for alliance parties with nearly infinite time, one of the first reactions I saw by many people was fear that they'd get caught "abusing" the system. And this was regarding a main feature of a significant expansion!


^ ^ ^ ^

****, I remember when people were so terrified of the all-mighty banhammer that there was a lot of posts of "Will I get banned for using Teamspeak/Ventrilo?" That's really sad. Even still, today you can hear a few people resistant to ABs in FFXI simply because they still fear it as a way to get banned.

I remember reading a post a few days ago about how the new seals auto-sorted in your inventory in XI and there didn't need to be a free slot open first. So, people were loading up with 80/80 slots so they wouldn't have to manually deal with throwing out useless seals. The reaction? "THAT'S MANIPULATION UR GUNNA GET BANNED!"

Edited, Sep 28th 2010 6:00pm by StrijderVechter
#37 Sep 28 2010 at 3:58 PM Rating: Good
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I'm surprised SE didn't ban blms for manaburn parties.
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#38 Sep 28 2010 at 4:19 PM Rating: Excellent
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Corthaemus wrote:
I'm surprised SE didn't ban blms for manaburn parties.


Or BLMs one-shotting beastmen pets for exp. I think it's fairly obvious that's not the originally intended way for BLMs to level up, but for a while there it was one of the only things players of the job did for exp in the mid levels (and one of the only things they could do, with ToAU killing BLM party invite rates). I suppose BLMs should just know better, they should be properly fulfilling their role by using spells to MB after their party DDs skillchain, right? None of this solo nuking "exploit" behavior, right?

Square-Enix: "Read our minds more, players. Or we'll ban you. By the way, nobody except our development team has ever defeated Absolute Virtue using a legitimate method and NIN is not a tank."
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#39 Sep 28 2010 at 4:32 PM Rating: Decent
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The players didn't have to do anything strange like d/c in the middle of something or use a third party program, they just played the game. I keep thinking, it could have been me.

No, it couldn't have. In order to do this exploit you need to know what you're doing beforehand, and so do all your party members. It's incredibly similar to the salvage duping, except they caught it earlier and it's less severe of an exploit.
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#40 Sep 28 2010 at 4:39 PM Rating: Decent
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What many fail to understand is that all MMORPG's are unfinished products. Because the content is always changing with patches and updates, there is bound to be bugs or things that work outside of how the developer expected. This is why they put the don't exploit clause in the customer agreements.

We all know this stuff already, so for those who say it's SE's fault for having a system that is easily exploitable, it's not. It's the people's fault who choose to use the exploit.

Edited, Sep 28th 2010 6:40pm by jbonelick
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#41 Sep 28 2010 at 6:24 PM Rating: Excellent
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jbonelick wrote:
What many fail to understand is that all MMORPG's are unfinished products. Because the content is always changing with patches and updates, there is bound to be bugs or things that work outside of how the developer expected. This is why they put the don't exploit clause in the customer agreements.

We all know this stuff already, so for those who say it's SE's fault for having a system that is easily exploitable, it's not. It's the people's fault who choose to use the exploit.

Edited, Sep 28th 2010 6:40pm by jbonelick


Same system existed in Wings of the Goddess for FFXI
Same dev team
Same exploit
They fixed it in WotG
...
See where I'm going with this?

Obviously there are going to be some things that just behave unpredictably when you throw a few thousand people at them, but this was not only predictable, it's happened once before
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#42 Sep 28 2010 at 6:53 PM Rating: Decent
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This doesn't seem very clear to me. Is it healing gave EXP when casting it on full hp characters, or that it gives EXP at all?

In either fashion, I find it humorous that they consider it an exploit and pathetic that they are considering punishment for using it.

SE has completely lost touch.
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#43 Sep 28 2010 at 7:05 PM Rating: Default
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well thats you you get when you dont have common sense & dont read the TOS.
TOS = selling your soul to whatever company, and they can stop doing business with you at anytime.

im pertty sure they have the servers keeping track of every thing on timestamp logs for everything your character can do, so if your doing something bad its easier to catch you.

Edited, Sep 28th 2010 9:06pm by mitmystria
#44 Sep 28 2010 at 7:53 PM Rating: Excellent
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Anza wrote:
Downrange wrote:
The players didn't have to do anything strange like d/c in the middle of something or use a third party program, they just played the game. I keep thinking, it could have been me.


This. I have no idea whether strange things in a brand new game are working as intended or not, I can only assume that what the game allows me to do is either intended or will be fixed in updates by the developer if it's not what they intended.

When I first switched to botanist I was chopping at a tree and someone else ran up beside me and started chopping at it too. Then for giggles I went up to someone else who was chopping at a tree and found that I could do the same. I thought how cool it was that they were shared resources but in the back of my mind I was just waiting to have a GM roll up on me and spirit me away because it wasn't supposed to work that way and by using it at the same time as another player I was exploiting.
#45 Sep 28 2010 at 8:25 PM Rating: Default
Conjuror exploit huh? And i was just complaining about why SE wouldn't give me any conjuror points for healing my party during a leve quest. So what, either you get NO points or any points you get is considered an exploit? The only way to level up Conjuror is to NOT heal and get your party killed and never invited back again.........wtf??????????????????????????
#46 Sep 28 2010 at 8:37 PM Rating: Good
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Lobivopis wrote:

If this had been an exploit that popped up in FFXI last week the reaction would be "ban them all"

[SE is] willing to set aside their principles in favor of profit.


Yeah like when campaign gave exp from just subbing BRD10 and spamming 2 songs back to back! That was barely a year ago, and they banned so many people, oh wait...

Also, SE gains money from FFXI, too.


Edited, Sep 28th 2010 10:48pm by KaneKitty
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#47 Sep 28 2010 at 8:40 PM Rating: Good
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Thayos wrote:
Square Enix Conjures Up Justice

I see what you did there.
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#48 Sep 28 2010 at 8:44 PM Rating: Good
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SaerwenCeleste wrote:
Conjuror exploit huh? And i was just complaining about why SE wouldn't give me any conjuror points for healing my party during a leve quest. So what, either you get NO points or any points you get is considered an exploit? The only way to level up Conjuror is to NOT heal and get your party killed and never invited back again.........wtf??????????????????????????


I can tell that you possess a great deal of love for the class, only misspelling its name three times in four sentences, which is why your commentary seems all the more thoughtful and enlightened. In fact, you got it totally right: it's not about attaining level forty in a single day, it's that nobody's allowed to gain experience on a conjurer.
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#49 Sep 28 2010 at 9:52 PM Rating: Good
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Thayos wrote:
Also, I can't blame SE for fixing this before getting to other parts of the game. This was a prtty big deal. Also can't blame them for missing this on a beta feedback forum... and that's a pretty weak justification for trying to explain why this wasn't an exploit.

Actually, you can blame them. I'm not trying to justify that it is not an exploit. It is actually working the way it is intended to, but not the way they expect you to use it. The fact that this issue was brought up in beta simply supports the fact that SE didn't bother to think of how this mechanic might be used to advance your class quickly. It is not like a bug or duping. It works correctly, just on a scale that SE hadn't considered. They had two chances to correct the issue before having to 'serve up justice'. Should have done themselves justice and realized it in the first place.
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