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I USED to like the crafting system...Follow

#1 Sep 28 2010 at 8:57 AM Rating: Good
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For the first 2 days or so, I really liked the crafting system. It was fun, intuitive, and for the first few levels, quite easy.

Now that I have a bit more experience (about 5 crafts around rank 10-15) I can say that I am really starting to become unhappy with some parts of the design. First off is the steep incline of leveling. The first few ranks were great. A few crafts, I'd level. Cool. Now, at only rank 10 its already becoming a nightmare. To gain 1 level I basically have to craft about 30-40 items (successfully). This may not seem like that much, but its only rank 10! Not to mention, 30-40 successful crafts requires a lot of materials and shards, or a lot of leves. Let's also not forget that MAKING a successful craft takes at least a full minute or more. So we're talking 30-40 minutes of straight crafting, not taking into account the amount of time spent gathering or travelling for leves. Now multiply that out times 5 crafts (all of which are necessary to even be ABLE to make pretty much anything useful) and you can see the dilemma.

I spend FAR more time when I'm online crafting than I do actually fighting monsters. That's not how I WANT to play the game, but I almost feel like I'm forced to do it because of how insanely difficult it is to actually find the correct person selling something you want (where is our ******* search function for retainers!)

Oh yeah, let's also not forget that some of the leves are just absolutely not right. I'm sorry, but when I'm failing a rank 5 leve at rank 10 4/4 times when there is no required sub-craft or larger scale accomodations, something just isn't right. I tried standard, I tried rapid, I tried bold... **** I even tried matching colors to synth types and it did NOTHING. Granted this doesn't happen all that often, but it should never happen. I can understand failing a synth occasionally. But 4/4 is not occasionally, and that isn't the only time it has happened. Oh, and don't even bother trying a synth that is more than a level above you because it is basically an automatic fail.

Don't get me wrong, sometimes crafting is fun. Going 4/4 on leves and getting about 1600 rank xp is really cool, but unless it starts scaling MUCH higher, it is going to get far outpaced by the xp curve. I really don't want to spend hours upon hours leveling up my crafts, but I feel that if I don't I'll be missing out on most of the gear and important stuff that I don't want to spend hours searching for.

How does everyone else feel about crafting now that its had a few days to sink in?
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#2 Sep 28 2010 at 9:07 AM Rating: Good
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I feel the same, one of the reason why I chose to go exclusively to stick with 2 DoH rather than try to make every component. Sadly, I think the leveling curve takes another nose dive after 20.... I think they need to make armor degradation lower because of the number of synthesis you need to do, you'll be breaking your stuff 20x over for +1 rank.
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#3 Sep 28 2010 at 9:10 AM Rating: Decent
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I still enjoy it even after a few days. I'm not expecting to speed level through every rank, so I'm enjoying it. Especially since I know I'll be able to craft some awesome gear eventually.
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#4 Sep 28 2010 at 9:10 AM Rating: Decent
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I don't know how the higher up levels would be but I don't think a casual player could get to rank 50 in a month. Yeah, I could see someone grinding it out very fast but especially at the start when you don't have something to supplement your crafting (another craft to fund or a high lvl job to get materials/gil) then it shouldn't just be given to you.
#5 Sep 28 2010 at 9:12 AM Rating: Excellent
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There's one thing I want from the craft system: a repeat button.
#6 Sep 28 2010 at 9:16 AM Rating: Decent
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I feel your pain but would like to mention a teory of mine which might have something to do with people failing synths on Rapid.

The more rapid you use, specially if in a row the more likly you are to fail and the shard/crystal is to get unstable.

Has anyone else experienced this?
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#7 Sep 28 2010 at 9:16 AM Rating: Good
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BartelX wrote:
I spend FAR more time when I'm online crafting than I do actually fighting monsters. That's not how I WANT to play the game, but I almost feel like I'm forced to do it because of how insanely difficult it is to actually find the correct person selling something you want (where is our @#%^ing search function for retainers!)

This pretty much says it all. I play MMOs to make an interesting character and watch them get stronger, explore fantastic worlds and fight bigass epic monsters. Sitting in a town spamming a broken crafting minigame for hours simply does not appeal.


Edited, Sep 28th 2010 3:17pm by Timorith
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#8 Sep 28 2010 at 9:37 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
I feel your pain but would like to mention a teory of mine which might have something to do with people failing synths on Rapid.

The more rapid you use, specially if in a row the more likly you are to fail and the shard/crystal is to get unstable.

Has anyone else experienced this?


Rapid seems to put the most of multiple elemental influence into your craft. Bold seems to put the most of a single element into a craft, and standards seems to have the least influence (haven't figured out anything more than that for standard). And wait decreases the elemental influence of one or more elements.

One thing I have loved (and hated) with alchemy is with preserve I can hold an element that is favorable strong while doing a rapid or bold. The only catch is, it seems still random to me on what element spikes when I synth. I know it's related to control (and I am just now collecting my synthing gear for more of it...), and I am positive it's scaled by my elemental affinity, but at low levels (and low durability... 100ish), you don't get many tries to play around to determine how you are influencing a synth.

As for leve quests, always try and do a test synth if it's not something you are COMPLETELY over leveled for. And even than, if you fail your first synth, wait a game day. Seems silly, and may just be superstition, but it has always worked for me. There does appear to be positive and negative influences on your synth (I am sure direction and other crazy stuff will come up, but game day seems a quite rational assumption at this point). If you fail your test synth, gain a level or two, and try again.

Also, I would recommend crafting gear. It makes such a huge difference. The nice thing about the OB was that they gave us (or at least I got lucky and got) a TON of craft gear (every piece actually). I am missing it now, and working to get back up there.
#9 Sep 28 2010 at 9:39 AM Rating: Decent
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TheLufia wrote:
There's one thing I want from the craft system: a repeat button.


This times a million and rate up.

The only other problem for me is the lack of current options to expand your inventory space.
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#10 Sep 28 2010 at 9:43 AM Rating: Decent
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i wouldnt mind if when you fail you dont lose all items. you have the chance of getting 1 or 2 back...
#11 Sep 28 2010 at 9:51 AM Rating: Excellent
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I said it during Beta that the skill point curve for crafting is ridiculous.

For level 30, it is ~39,000 SP to gain one level. That is approximately 130 synths if you manage to find something giving around 300 SP per synth.

In FFXI crafting was already fairly difficult, or at least time consuming, and a person could safely expect to gain a single level approximately every 35 synths up till about level 90, then it increased a bit.

Now, at only level 30 I am expected to make 130 synths to gain one single level? Seeing as how only approximately 2500 players are on a crowded server at a time, I can expect to supply 5% of the population with an armor/weapon all by myself? That is just not realistic, especially when a large percentage of that player base will find themselves in the same position trying to skill up.

Even on my Fisherman from 14 to 15 took 11,000 SP. Without the aid of levequest, a single level was 110-120 catches. The skill gain per catch is only about 90-105 at that level.

These SP curves are flawed.

Edited, Sep 28th 2010 11:53am by LordMethos
#12 Sep 28 2010 at 9:57 AM Rating: Decent
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I just got my blacksmith to level 9, my leatherworker to 6, goldsmith 4 and its been just using rapid Synth the whole way.. very few fails. I did hear after level 10 it slows down alot. so I will almost be experiencing that as well
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#13 Sep 28 2010 at 9:58 AM Rating: Decent
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ummm good!

everyone won't be maxed on all crafts within a month.
#14 Sep 28 2010 at 10:02 AM Rating: Decent
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Please remember when complaining about skill gains, crafting is now a CLASS not a skill you learn separate from a class, and in order to keep crafters/farmers/fighters even in XP gains...well you should get the idea, if you don't...dunno what else to tell you, but you cant have lvl 40 crafters just as the DoW are getting to 30/35...balance is the issue you are complaining about, and tis not unbalanced.
#15 Sep 28 2010 at 10:05 AM Rating: Excellent
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Isn't that how all the classes get though? Everybody loves the first 10 levels because it's so easy to level up and get those new abilities. Beyond 15 you have to put the work in. I like that not everyone will put up with doing all the jobs to high levels quickly. That allows for people to specialize in making products that others will need without worrying about everyone on the server being able to make the same thing. Can't expect 10-20 and onward to be as easy as 1-10 in any class...
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#16 Sep 28 2010 at 10:06 AM Rating: Excellent
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Isn't that how all the classes get though? Everybody loves the first 10 levels because it's so easy to level up and get those new abilities. Beyond 15 you have to put the work in. I like that not everyone will put up with doing all the jobs to high levels quickly. That allows for people to specialize in making products that others will need without worrying about everyone on the server being able to make the same thing. Can't expect 10-20 and onward to be as easy as 1-10 in any class...


This.
#17 Sep 28 2010 at 10:17 AM Rating: Good
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Inion wrote:
Please remember when complaining about skill gains, crafting is now a CLASS not a skill you learn separate from a class, and in order to keep crafters/farmers/fighters even in XP gains...well you should get the idea, if you don't...dunno what else to tell you, but you cant have lvl 40 crafters just as the DoW are getting to 30/35...balance is the issue you are complaining about, and tis not unbalanced.


Well, at the moment there are several players whom have spent large amounts of time leveling up DoW/DoM jobs and are currently in the level 20's (legitimately), however, in order to produce armor/weapons for these jobs a crafter needs to be level 25+ and no such weapons/armor exist for these players except by purchasing from an NPC.

Don't get me wrong, I do not want crafting to be "easy" and the market flooded with crafters. However, I also cannot see a level 49 Armorer making 300 Vintage Haubergeons to skillup a single level. That would outfit over 8% of the entire population by themselves, and that is if every single person played as a Gladiator or Maurader.

As a mathmetician, it just does not make sense logically.

Edited, Sep 28th 2010 2:29pm by LordMethos
#18 Sep 28 2010 at 10:32 AM Rating: Good
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But they wanted crafters to feel like real classes?!

/sarcasm off

the crafting is way too hard. mainly because crafters dont get to wander outside and find synths to do. they have to pay for them, often at a loss. Since the fastest way is to skill on easy stuff, which means all blacksmiths are skilling on the same knife blade for example. I dont see why crafters can't have a 20-25% discount on exp/level, or a boost to skillpoints based on the mats required. Skilling on weapons gives 2-3 times what skilling on components does. this'll encourage people to make useful goods, instead of the cheapest, while still encouraging people to create and sell components.
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#19 Sep 28 2010 at 10:32 AM Rating: Decent
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ShonaSeraph wrote:
ummm good!

everyone won't be maxed on all crafts within a month.


I would tend to agree with this but from what I have read some of the lower level crafts require items from higher level crafts. I believe I read this with regard to repair of armor/weapons. If that is the case, and since the community is dependent on crafting for both weapons and armor I think we will all have a hard time equipping ourselves or getting repairs from other than NPCs. If it happens that I am wrong and a level 15 crafter can make level 15 armor then I don't mind at all. It might keep the DOW/DOM from outleveling the DOH folks because they won't have anything to wear.
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#20 Sep 28 2010 at 10:33 AM Rating: Default
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If people want to level their DoM and DoW rediculously fast (ie: already halfway to cap in under a week), and not have armor and weapons available yet, that's their problem.

They can sit at cap with nothing to wear and starter weapons for all I care, there's no market for that level yet.
If your solution is to nerf crafting to the point where it's so easy to level that it becomes pointless... then go burn in a fire.
#21 Sep 28 2010 at 10:37 AM Rating: Decent
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Shassa wrote:
TheLufia wrote:
There's one thing I want from the craft system: a repeat button.


This times a million and rate up.

The only other problem for me is the lack of current options to expand your inventory space.


That and previous post times a million :)
#22 Sep 28 2010 at 10:41 AM Rating: Good
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I remember joining XI late and I couldn't afford the best low-level gear I wanted for my 1st few jobs. So I pushed through with mediocre gear. Now here in XIV the game's almost a week old and the economy & system hasn't been established yet. Of course high level people aren't gonna get the best gear for their class & rank now. They can push through though if they like. Chances are we're gonna be leveling those first fighting classes with mediocre gear and that's okay. Eventually the system will establish and you can level that class you didn't touch with the finest uber gear gil can buy.

I still don't see this as a flaw, but how it's supposed to work...
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#23 Sep 28 2010 at 10:43 AM Rating: Good
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ShonaSeraph wrote:
If people want to level their DoM and DoW rediculously fast (ie: already halfway to cap in under a week), and not have armor and weapons available yet, that's their problem.

They can sit at cap with nothing to wear and starter weapons for all I care, there's no market for that level yet.
If your solution is to nerf crafting to the point where it's so easy to level that it becomes pointless... then go burn in a fire.


I don't think that is anyone's solution. But if you are too convoluted to understand that the current curve for crafting jobs in comparison to skill gain is bunk that's your own problem. Battle classes always have chances for skill gains in combat. What I would like to see for crafting is that on every successful (or failed) synthesis (rapid, standard, bold) you gain an amount of skill points that is visible. A fail should still give some, just not nearly as much.

I think this would really make crafting a bit more bearable and comparable to battle classes. As the system is currently, I got my marauder to rank 15 in about 5 hours total of leves and battles. So far, getting a craft 1-10 has taken me that long or longer. That is not balanced imo.

Edited, Sep 28th 2010 12:44pm by BartelX
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#24 Sep 28 2010 at 10:46 AM Rating: Default
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Well, at the moment there are several players whom have spent large amounts of time leveling up DoW/DoM jobs and are currently in the level 20's (legitimately), however, in order to produce armor/weapons for these jobs a crafter needs to be level 25+ and no such weapons/armor exist for these players except by purchasing from an NPC.


Hopefully this is the most wrong you are today.
#25 Sep 28 2010 at 10:51 AM Rating: Good
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LordMethos wrote:

Don't get me wrong, I do not want crafting to be "easy" and the market flooded with crafters. However, I also cannot see a level 49 Armorer making 300 Vintage Haubergeons to skillup a single level. That would outfit over 8% of the entire population by themselves, and that is if every single person played as a Gladiator or Maurader.

As a mathmetician, it just not make sense logically.


In what MMO does the population actually equip skillup grind product?

I leveled every craft 1 to max in WOW and vendored every piece of item I made, easily numbered in the hundreds per craft. In SWG i junked mass amounts of junk skilling up weapon & armor crafting. Ditto Aion, ditto every MMO that has crafting.

This is just a reflection of reality, nobody pays for by-product of a person's education. My company doesn't pay for interns. And grind product for a MMO crafter is stuff just created as a crafter is leveling up to higher levels. I wouldn't expect anyone to pay for that stuff anymore than paying for the papers a student wrote getting a bachelor degree.

The crafting exp to level is probably too harsh, but that's a separate issue from expecting players to use every piece of item that any crafter has ever created.
#26 Sep 28 2010 at 11:03 AM Rating: Decent
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The system is what the system is. The real problem is trying to find mats. I've got time to synth just not the mats i need to do it. AH where?
#27 Sep 28 2010 at 11:44 AM Rating: Good
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ixion13 wrote:
This is just a reflection of reality, nobody pays for by-product of a person's education. My company doesn't pay for interns. And grind product for a MMO crafter is stuff just created as a crafter is leveling up to higher levels. I wouldn't expect anyone to pay for that stuff anymore than paying for the papers a student wrote getting a bachelor degree.

The crafting exp to level is probably too harsh, but that's a separate issue from expecting players to use every piece of item that any crafter has ever created.


But the whole point of crafting this time around is that each craft is an actual CLASS, not just some extra of your main. If they want these to be TREATED like classes, their needs to be some kind of balance or else what's really the point of leveling them?
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#28 Sep 28 2010 at 11:58 AM Rating: Decent
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I looks to me as if they had a good look at Vanguards crafting system and made a simple copy of it.

I like this system a lot since it is more than just pushing a button. I don't think leveling crafting with an exp system like this is bad. At least you get some exp every time, even if you fail. If you compare that to FFXI where you can craft 25 items and not get a single skill up.


In Vanguard you got the ability to craft more the 1 item at once for stuff like cloth and igonots at a higher level. In FFXI you could get a simular ability from guild points. I hope we will see one in XIV as well soon :)
#29 Sep 28 2010 at 12:03 PM Rating: Excellent
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The system bothers me too. Although I really like crafting it's almost impossible to make something usefull without getting other DoH to a usefull level too.
If they want us to make our own stuff and produce parts to sell to other crafters at least the DoH used to make the final product shouldn't need 1-2 other DoH to be able to actually synth them. It's like going out dual wielding a greataxe and a lance just because you are able to use the abilities of both.
If this is how it's intended to be then I want to get SP for cross-synthing as it was in XI.

And it has been said often enough but it really is nearly impossible to find things you need to make something. So the only viable way is to level the craft to make the items you need yourself which is killing the whole purpose of trading parts between DoH.

- The retainers, or whatever means SE is going to provide, needs some kind of search function.

- Finished products like armors, weapons, tools,... shouldn't require more than one craft to make even if the recipe uses parts made by another profession.

- There should be an ingame reciepe book for items including the items you need, the level of the craft and which DoH produces parts used in the reciepe. And you should be able to start crafting out of the reciepe book if you have the required items or show you what you're missing.
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#30 Sep 28 2010 at 12:47 PM Rating: Good
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Not bored with it yet, however I find it hard to believe that one can make things out of cloth but somehow said cloth is difficult to make? Wtf is that about? My weaver is 11 and i still will fail making undyed hempen cloth. But I can make things easily that requires the cloth. Dont get me started on cotton. That said I expect some degree of difficulty but I would rather the system be more refined. Higher rewards for synthing without a single fail and such.

Also I think sp and xp should be reversed a bit. Atleast on leves. I would much rather complete a synth and see Weaving skill points 1500 and xp 400 instead of other way around.

Its still early and havent gotten anywhere near a point to get guild marks let alone buy training. Wondering how thats gonna work since we can make stuff without the required training.

Weaver 10 Leather 10 Blacksmith 9 Armorer 7 Carpenter 5 Goldsmith 5 Alchemy 8 so ive been working on it a bit.

Mar 12 and physical lvl of 20 1k til 21
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