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Why the crafting system will kill this gameFollow

#1 Sep 28 2010 at 1:12 PM Rating: Good
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The crafting system is brilliant in many ways: it is engaging, it takes a bit of thought, and it requires a good amount of dedication in order to advance. Unlike most other games it isn't just a matter of having the proper mats and skills and pushing "Create". Having to account for having the proper tools and using them right in and of itself is a stroke of genius.

Everything else about the system is a complete failure and an example of S-E not thinking things through.

Lets start with the basics, shall we? Here are the facts we're dealing with:

- All weapons and armor are non-consumable. The only way they leave the economy is if someone vendors them or throws them away.

- Inventory is capped at 160 (+80 per retainer at $1 each)

- Bazaars are capped at 10 per player and an additional 10 per retainer

- The only way to sell an item is for a player to luck across your bazaar or for you to abuse /shout

- The only ways to get materials is to luck upon the right bazaar, buy it at extortionate prices from NPCs, or to farm them yourself

Lets look at the above in light of the crafting SP curve. It will take about 5200 successful synths at an average of 400 SP per in order to reach the cap. Assuming you never have a bag full of unlimited materials and never fail a synth it will take you over 130 hours of nonstop powergrind crafting in order to reach the cap. Of course, this is the rub: once you reach about level 20 or so all materials will need to be sourced from gatherers or from combat classes meaning you're going to be hunting through bazaar **** in order to find the materials. This also doesn't take into account the sheer amount of cash necessary in order to fund this massive appropriation of materials. I'll touch on this more in a moment, but first lets look into the alternative: Guild Leves.

Guild leves give you an alternate way to advance at no cost to you. If you were to do nothing but guild leves in one crafting class and by some freak of luck didn't ever get any that had cross-class requirements (like Bronze Chakrams on the level 10 blacksmith requiring at least level 5 leatherworking, etc), then it will take you a minimum of 130 leve resets in order to hit the cap assuming you never break a synth, you get 5 attempts per leve, and you never get lower than 400 SP per synth. This means you're going to be powergrinding a minimum of 200 days at only one craft, and this is only if you get lucky on what leves are available at every reset. Since many leves are underleveled compared to where you're at (and give you less SP per synth), require cross classing (eliminating it from your ability to complete), or offer less tries (the amount of materials and end products required is dropping as we get higher in rank) you can assume that this number of days will double to well over one year.

Lets now assume that you are hard core enough to pick up the gauntlet from the challenge I described above. This leads us to our third problem: there can be only one. In order to level your armorsmith from 49 to 50, for example, you will be doing at least 100 complete armor piece synths assuming all the parts of the synth are in that level range and it takes a large amounts of crafted parts to create the final product. If you factor in 10000 players per server and only 10% of them are the proper class to wear that item, you've now equipped 10% of those players for that slot. Since the variety of useable gear is small and the slots you're crafting for is also small, one armorcrafter could conceivably gear out every plate and mail wearer on a server. In the worst case scenario where every player on the server hits 50 at the same time it would take no more than a half dozen armorsmiths to gear out every heavy melee class on the server.

You don't believe me? Go to the market wards in Ul'dah right now and start browsing retainers. If every player on the server bought jewelry to fill every slot on their paperdoll there still would be jewelry to spare. What makes this more horrific is that most of this is made in an area of levels that is mostly made up of leves and it takes relatively few (ha ha 20-30) synths to advance a point of skill. Imagine how much more heinous this will be by the time the crafter wave hits 20? Every player on the server could buy multiple sets of cloth gear and still there would be gear rotting on retainers forever. 100 clothcrafters getting from 15 to 20 will generate in the area of 20000 pieces of cloth armor. I can promise you that more than 100 will try to make it at least that far on any given server.

By now the money hungry among you are licking your chops and gearing up for the world's longest poopsock marathon. You want to be one of those six crafters, right? This means you'll be rich beyond imagining, right?

WRONG

The problem with the above scenario is that somehow you're going to need to be able to unload all the stuff you're making. Remember the bazaar limitation? Even though you may be one of the few and proud that can make the item, there is no way for you to get rid of it unless you have a line of people frothing at the mouth to buy it the moment it hits your bazaar. Even if you went crazy and picked up 30+ retainers and took over an entire market ward with them you would not be able to unload goods as fast as you make them (and remember, we're assuming that you have an unlimited supply of free resources in order to make this gear). You will be forced to either toss the gear as fast as you make it or vendor it for a fraction of the material cost. On the bright side, the materials will be dirt cheap since the number of crafters demanding them is low, but you will still be losing money hand over fist. In every non-consumable class (i.e. not cooking, alchemy, or ammunition oriented synth) whatever you make will be in the economy forever, so once a server is filled with level 30 gear there will be no money to be made in this bracket. Once the first group hits level 50 it is game over for that class, since there is now nothing left for them to do. The market is now saturated so there will be no chance for additional profit. Any further gear you make will only drive supply up and the associated cost of that item down.

Where do gatherers fit into this? Outside of materials for consumables, it will almost always be preferable for a gatherer to simply vendor anything they farm. Unless you (like the crazy crafter above) pick up dozens of retainers there is no conceivable way you can unload your materials, and even with those retainers you have to hope one of the few crazy crafters decides to patronize your shop. Unless you simply like to gather you are simply wasting your time and effort.

What does all this mean for combat classes? You will have to live without gear for a very long time. On the bright side everything you need will be dirt cheap. On the downside you'll be fighting in chronically underlevelled gear. By the time you hit the 30s you will be virtually unable to progress because your gear will be holding you back so substantially. If you need repairs you will have to use a NPC because there will be virtually no crafters that can provide them for you. You better hope you get severely lucky with your leves to score some armor. As for weapons, you might want to get used to sucking for the first year. You think all this is bad, though?

It gets worse

There is no way that S-E can fix this problem without severely changing how the game operates. The following is a short list of things that must happen in order to salvage this situation:

- An auction house with unlimited sales slots must be implemented. This is the only way a crafter will be able to find the materials needed to craft and unload their goods in a reasonable time frame. Retainers can be left in the game, but should have no bazaar fees (unlike the AH) and would serve primarily as inventory expansions.

- SP awarded by crafting must be increased dramatically or the cost in SP to level must be reduced. In order to expand the crafting population to 60 players (or .6% of the population of a server of 10000) this would have to change by 10 times (or 1/10th the SP required to level) just to keep the status quo in tact (though the cost of non-consumables will still crash like in the current scenario).

An additional change that is possible without resorting to either of the above is the following:

- Keep everything as is and allow unlimited local leves. Even not factoring in travel times you're still going to be doing 130 hours of nonstop crafting to reach the cap. Doing this would at least keep the market stable since it wouldn't be necessary flooded with gear from grinding synths to level.

The likely result

You notice how I keep talking about unlimited resources and the like in order to describe the above scenarios? No player will have this kind of resource availability. No linkshell will either. The only groups that will have the kind of organization to pull this off will be the RMTs. If you want to know what I think is coming, simply look at a history of DeBeers. The RMTs will powerlevel up crafters backed by an army of gatherers and flood the market making actual players unable to advance due to the lack of being able to unload gear. Once they have a monopoly, they can charge exorbitant costs for the gear vacuuming up all the gil on the server into their own coffers. In order to afford gear you'll have to buy gil which then gets deposited right back into the RMT bank. Due to the slow pace of guildleve advancement they will have a one year monopoly and will destroy this game before it has a chance to take off. If you think a 40000g harpoon is bad just wait until the level 30 spear costs you 8000000g to buy from Dsxgheltr Love.

This would be a good investment for the RMTs. By the end of one year their ability to extort prices will be finished (due to market saturation) but the amount of money they will have made will be so immense that they can basically walk from the game at that point to whatever else hits the market.

Conclusion

I hate to be chicken little here, but S-E has to wake up and fast or their game will die. This game has so much potential it would be a shame to see it fall because of a foolish failure to run the math on a subsystem as substantial as their crafting and gathering systems.
#2 Sep 28 2010 at 1:20 PM Rating: Default
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#3 Sep 28 2010 at 1:21 PM Rating: Excellent
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Assuming, of course, that materials required for high level items (and GOOD high level items at that) are as easy to come by as materials for items now. Or that they don't require many sub components or tiers of sub components.
#4 Sep 28 2010 at 1:22 PM Rating: Good
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Excellent post. I share the exact same concerns, and is why I'm seriously reconsidering armorcraft. Also reconsidering it since the benefits on heavy armor really arent that great compared to leather and cloth armor.

I also think a big problem that we will see as a result of the retainer system and the crafting spam is rising inflation. Whenever you NPC an item you are adding gil into the economy. Bazaar tax may be the only thing that can keep everything in balance, but even then, that requires people to use their retainers a lot. I forsee a lot of people doing person-to-person trading.

Luckily for SE, their ability to make the repair mechanism so terrible to navigate, many people use the repair NPC, which will definitely take a lot of gil out of the economy.
#5 Sep 28 2010 at 1:23 PM Rating: Default
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#6 Sep 28 2010 at 1:27 PM Rating: Decent
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A cute article, but one flaw. When we're all 50 and in min/maxing mode, no one wants your NQ trash you craft anyway. We want +1's and up. You think one guy will magically churn all this out by himself before others lucksack one? It's the same system as in XI. Did you ***** about it? Did it end up working out in the end?

The only problems the economy will have in this game will be the massive inflation as the average player moves on to the next set of leves. You don't have to worry about RMT driving up the prices of weapons thanks to guildleves you can milk 100k out of at level 30.

What a waste of a tl;dr, that I actually read most of.
#7 Sep 28 2010 at 1:27 PM Rating: Decent
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Are people seriously worrying about this?

Take a look at the recipes in FFXI and how the crafting economy turned out in that game.

Crafters are going to skill up to 50 using items that nobody will use, because they're cheap and easy to make but otherwise offer no good stat bonuses.

The good money will be made off items that have rare ingredients or are hard to make, and offer great bonuses. These are the items that won't be flooded on the market and that other level 50 classes will want to buy.
#8 Sep 28 2010 at 1:28 PM Rating: Good
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Your conclusion about RMT is dead on my friend. This is the absolute perfect environment for them. Until mass organization on the part of the players isn't needed just to buy/sell, RMT will be the only group to have the numbers and organization to take advantage of the mass chaos that is an entire server of crafters and no way to buy/sell goods.
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#9 Sep 28 2010 at 1:34 PM Rating: Default
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Crafting in FFXI took a small fraction of the amount of synths that leveling will in FFXIV. Further, in FFXI there were a number of throwaway items that you could get at least half your money back from vendoring them. In FFXIV, the vendor cost of an item is usually around 20% of the material cost (without consideration of shards or crystals) making this a losing bet.

In my calculations above I assumed all finished items need 3 pre-crafted components in them that are within 5 points of the end synth and all of the same production class. This could end up a lot worse than my numbers hint at.
#10 Sep 28 2010 at 1:35 PM Rating: Good
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~ So your solution is to either make it easy for everyone to max (making crafting pointless) or give it up entirely? Crafting is a choice, you dont have to do it at all. In what game that has crafting does anyone ever expect to sell and make a profit throughout the entire process of the career? That doesnt happen, you're going to have to lose money and vendor items to make what return you can, to make the investment that crafting is. Lets not forget that crafting is also used to repair our gear. Something you can choose to either pay others for, or make the investment to do it yourself over your lifetime. I'm by no means claiming the system is perfect, but I dont think anyone is in any position at this early point in the game to be making these kind of finite decisions of system.

~ Crafting is a play-style choice. You can either choose to do it, making and spending money in the process to gain certain advantages that come with it. Or choose not to, and make your money playing a DOW class, making and spending the money you make in that process to gain the advantages that come with it. Or mix and match any percentage of the two any way you prefer. I dont see how any of it is going to hinder anyone else's gaming experience.
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#11 Sep 28 2010 at 1:36 PM Rating: Excellent
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This is why I picked culinarean. It sucks now because very few people care about food, and you can't sell anything you make for even a fraction of the cost of the materials that go into them. Not to mention, many recipes require ingredients from multiple regions, which makes NPC purchasing required (this was a major problem in XI too). However, eventually there will be a demand for consumables like this, one that can never be fully satisfied. Add to that, Culinarean is the absolute least-played class out of all eighteen right now, the competition for food sales won't be nearly as bad as any of the other crafting classes.
#12 Sep 28 2010 at 1:41 PM Rating: Decent
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You can't compare FFXIV crafting with FFXI crafting yet, because FFXIV crafting is incomplete.

You completely forget to factor in HQ items in your calculations, or items made with rare drops or NM drops.

You also forget that when the market will be flooded with "10,000" items, crafters will start to vendor, throw away, or desynth (if possible) because they will not be making ANY money trying to sell them on AH/Retainer.

Stop your doomsday theories, this game will be no different than any other game that has crafting.
#13 Sep 28 2010 at 1:43 PM Rating: Default
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You're point is of course, in order to advance in this game, you're going to have to actually play it?

Wow. That sucks.
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#14 Sep 28 2010 at 1:48 PM Rating: Excellent
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I guess I had an entirely different view on crafting/gathering in this game. My plan from the beginning was to detach myself from being reliant on an economy and gather/mine/hunt my own materials and make my own gear.(my fiance and I supplement and match what the other does not create/find themself) What bothered me most in FFXI is that I was always worried about gil and how to get the items I needed.. most of my hair-brained ideas fell through and I really had to scrimp and save to afford the gear I needed to do all the end-game I wanted. I worked so hard in that game, but in the end I always ended up feeling like my success was directly proportional to the economy at that time, especially when I tried to craft, farm or gather.

What I'm hoping for in XIV (and what I've accomplished thus far) is a certain independence. I'd like to find what I need to make what I want and outfit myself and my friends for nothing more but some hard work.

I'm not discounting anything said in the OP's scenario, in fact I see some real frightening truth in the piece about RMT. I would, I suppose, just like to present this alternative view at some of the positives about this system. If a majority of people are crafting (since it is so much more accessible in this game than in XI) perhaps this monopoly (or whatever you would like to call it) will not come to fruition? Just a hopeful thought.
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#15 Sep 28 2010 at 1:48 PM Rating: Excellent
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Except gear is partially-consummable. Eventually most, if not all gear, will need repairs, at which point you will need the crafters again.
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#16 Sep 28 2010 at 1:50 PM Rating: Default
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Gadhelyn wrote:
Except gear is partially-consummable. Eventually most, if not all gear, will need repairs, at which point you will need the crafters again.


Yet another reason why the OP's post fails.
#17 Sep 28 2010 at 1:52 PM Rating: Decent
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a side note about things in the economy, while in 11, things didnt have durability or wear, they do in ffxiv. And unless they changed something from OB, you cannot sell a worn/damaged item.

So if someone buys your lv30 'stick of bear poking' and uses it, and it reduces to 9999/10000 he cannot then sell the item, unless he, or someone he knows can repair it to full. Thus another roll for crafters, repair people for items that people wish to sell.
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#18 Sep 28 2010 at 1:52 PM Rating: Default
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airspirit wrote:
Since many leves are underleveled compared to where you're at (and give you less SP per synth), require cross classing (eliminating it from your ability to complete), or offer less tries (the amount of materials and end products required is dropping as we get higher in rank) you can assume that this number of days will double to well over one year.

{Research}, {please check it.} before you start crying doom.

For example. Looking to the Horizon, a Ul'dah Blacksmith leve.
http://ffxiv.zam.com/en/localleve.html?ffxivlocalleve=120442

Oh, lookie here, you need to make 5x weapons at rank 50, 4x at 40, 3x at 20 and 2x at 1.

So far it seems you get twice as many mats as needed to complete the craft, that means you're looking at 10 synths per leve around level 50 blacksmith, which would means about 4-5k Blacksmith xp right there. I can make 1400-2000xp at level 10 on leves right now, meaning you make more xp with a leve as your level progress.

Sure, it's not more XP proportionnaly than level 1 crafters, but assuming you do 8 blacksmith leves, you're looking at around 40k of mats free, assle-free XP that comes bundled with free materials for your own crafting needs.
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#19Wolfums, Posted: Sep 28 2010 at 1:59 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Don't forget that a good chunk of crafters may rely solely on leves for experience, because they're too lazy/dumb/casual/whatever to gather or buy their own materials and hold out until level 50 to try to make money. These crafters will be putting zero items on the market.
#20 Sep 28 2010 at 2:01 PM Rating: Decent
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The only thing I see wrong is that you're drawing a conclusion from only a small number of players the game still hasn't been released yet plus the amount of players the ps3 release is going to bring in. Like said before the crafting in FFXI worked because even though there were 200+ lv 100 cloth, bone, bs, gs, ect. they made bank from selling the rare items of +1 or higher.. I see the same happening here everyone is not going to be crafting when you can make probably more money doing DoL and selling mats to everyone trying to craft...mats are consumable and faster to sell anyway imo.
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#21 Sep 28 2010 at 2:04 PM Rating: Decent
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Dyna wrote:
The only thing I see wrong is that you're drawing a conclusion from only a small number of players the game still hasn't been released yet plus the amount of players the ps3 release is going to bring in. Like said before the crafting in FFXI worked because even though there were 200+ lv 100 cloth, bone, bs, gs, ect. they made bank from selling the rare items of +1 or higher.. I see the same happening here everyone is not going to be crafting when you can make probably more money doing DoL and selling mats to everyone trying to craft...mats are consumable and faster to sell anyway imo.


Don't give it away, Dyna! ;)
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#22 Sep 28 2010 at 2:09 PM Rating: Decent
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Lets compare what is different about this crafting environment than other games, shall we?

WoW:

Crafting results are mostly BoE removing them from resale. It takes one synth in WoW for every 8-15 in FFXIV (depending on your luck) to level to cap. In WoW you had unlimited AH availability to unload your wares and get materials. Nearly everything in WoW was designed to remove items from the server in short order (through mandatory vendoring of obsolete items). Virtually everything that is made to level crafting is either a material for a later craft or is designed to be vendored until the very last crafting levels by design.

FFXI:

Crafting results are mostly non-consumable, but for leveling purposes they designed items that are meant to be vendored at a slight loss or are worthless to players essentially hiding them from the economy. It takes one synth in FFXI for every 4-7 in FFXIV in order to reach cap. In FFXI you had an auction house and a massive bazaar space (with little competition) to facilitate unloading wares and find materials. In non-consumable crafts only a small fraction of what you make is designed for end use by players.

FFXIV:

Crafting results are mostly non-consumable. You have virtually no way of effectively marketing your wares. Vendoring items results in massive losses (80%+ from vendored material costs). Player provided mats are cheap and plentiful, but there is virtually no effective way to procure them. The sheer number of finished products you must produce to level can effectively gear out a significant percentage of the entire server. The only way for players to gear themselves is through crafted items, and all crafted items are designed to be a material or end use product.

Picture it this way in FFXI: to level your clothcrafter from 90 to 100 you had to make 1000 Noble's Tunics. The materials to make these are cheap and plentiful, but you can only find them in Rolanmart ... except Rolanmart filled the entire Rolanberry Fields zone. In order to then sell these Noble's Tunics you now have to bazaar them on your mule, but you can only have a maximum of 10 up at any time and your mule is one of about 10000 of them in Rolanberry Fields, so how is anyone going to find it to make a purchase? How many people leveling Clothcrafting would it take before the server finally decided that there was no additional demand for Noble's Tunics?

If you want an even uglier example: imagine if nothing in WoW was soulbound. Imagine everything being tradeable and gems being able to be removed from items and reused. After the first wave of gems each patch how much demand would there be for additional ones?

This is a very different environment from other games in many ways, so comparing the end results to other games is exceedingly foolish. It takes nothing more than a simple understanding of math and economics to see what is inevitably going to happen here.
#23 Sep 28 2010 at 2:09 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
- Inventory is capped at 160 (+80 per retainer at $1 each)

- Bazaars are capped at 10 per player and an additional 10 per retainer

They will be probably adding more retainers soon. When they announced pricing structure they also announced the price per extra retainer.

Quote:
- The only way to sell an item is for a player to luck across your bazaar or for you to abuse /shout

- The only ways to get materials is to luck upon the right bazaar, buy it at extortionate prices from NPCs, or to farm them yourself

Why are people assuming there isnt going to be an AH? When in all likelihood there will be. They delayed releasing the AH in FFXI and they are delaying it here. I will be any amount of $ that there will be an AH in this game.

You're assuming quite a bit here and I'm not sure you should. Why would players skill up on weapons and armor? There are usually much simpler more cost effective ways of doing so. The best armor will probably be in limited availability through rare drops or Rare EX pieces ect ect.

Why have you left out the +1 +2 +3 system?

While your post is well calculated you left glaring holes.
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#24 Sep 28 2010 at 2:09 PM Rating: Decent
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I like the crafting system in FFXIV but I think making used gear "soulbound" (to borrow a WoW term) would go a long way towards helping crafters out. At least it would solve the problem that only 500 rank 38 axes or whatever need to be created and then the market is gone for that item.
#25 Sep 28 2010 at 2:20 PM Rating: Good
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I think the repair system in this game will keep crafters getting paid, and keep the majority if items available for a secondary market.

one thing I have to wonder, when SE made crafters "real classes" (which i don't think they are, not when you 4 other crafts to actually produce something), did they not anticipate a massive surplus of crafters to purchasers? I personally have made and sold about 50 copper chokers for 30-70% above mats cost. Most people I saw were charging 2-5K for them early on, now price has settled at around 2k on my server. But people who are trying to make a profit while skilling up are dreaming. Very few items will allow that.
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#26 Sep 28 2010 at 2:27 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Crafting results are mostly non-consumable, but for leveling purposes they designed items that are meant to be vendored at a slight loss or are worthless to players essentially hiding them from the economy.


Wrong, they were not specially designed to be that way. It happed to be luck of the draw on only A FEW occasions could you make back part of your money on some obscure piece of furniture or something.
Quote:
In FFXI you had an auction house and a massive bazaar space

7 slot Auction house and only near the end did you have the ability to have what an 80 slot bazaar. However in having an 80 slot bazaar you couldn't have any other gear on your character with which to play. He would simply be a bazaar.
Quote:
FFXIV:

Crafting results are mostly non-consumable

This is true, for right now. Since there is no convenient way to market items and no one has hit high enough level to use the higher tier arrows and or food and general consumable items you'd find. Food will probably be a big part in this game too but no one cares at the present time. Also doesn't it stand to reason that in a games infancy when there is NO starter gear thats what every one would craft? Every one in this game needs the low level armor.

Quote:
Player provided mats are cheap and plentiful, but there is virtually no effective way to procure them.

Yet and for now...
Quote:
he only way for players to gear themselves is through crafted items,

This isn't true you can buy gear from NPCs its just super expensive... besides that to assume they wont be adding any rare-ex gear - questable - rewards w/e is foolish.
I can go on but should I? I guess I should. You cant compare a game that is 6 days old with games that have been out for years and have HUGE economies in comparison. Current trends are demand inspired... I mean its almost like comparing a first world country's economy vs a third... at this point.

Edited, Sep 28th 2010 4:40pm by ketrel
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#27 Sep 28 2010 at 2:27 PM Rating: Decent
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airspirit wrote:
Picture it this way in FFXI: to level your clothcrafter from 90 to 100 you had to make 1000 Noble's Tunics. The materials to make these are cheap and plentiful,


No. You can't make this comparison, because we only know recipes to about level 20 crafting.

We're making low level items with weak bonuses out of common materials, like every craft in FFXI, WOW, Aion, and any other MMO.

You're going to have your skillup trash items, like Beetle Knife, that NOBODY is going to use or buy.

Then you'll have scorpion harness that's not a skillup item and that everyone will want to buy.

You don't understand that there will be rare craft items, HQ items, rare HQ items, and crappy items that nobody will want to buy.
#28 Sep 28 2010 at 2:32 PM Rating: Good
Point against the OP:

Damaged gear cannot be traded or placed in bazaar.

Sure, you could spend the money to repair the item and then cycle it back in, but likely the player instead of going through that level of trial (if they're defiantly not a crafter) will likely NPC the weapon or item.

Now of course some will cycle it back into circulation, in which that is an inevitability of any game. But you still have repairs and furher upgrades of gear to work with.

Also note: It's rather foolish to depend on a single craft aspect for your money. There are PLENTY of consumables in every market (arrows alone require crafts from nearly every DoH) And supplies (including repair supplies) are spread wise across the board.

No, if anything is going to kill the game, it'll be the blatant onset of initial negativity this game is getting. And really it won't even kill it as much as hamper its potential in the future.
#29 Sep 28 2010 at 3:05 PM Rating: Good
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Bottom line is; Vendors need to pay a decent price for crafted goods. It will remove equipment from the economy and provide some gil for players.

This was one of the things that bugged the **** out of me in FFXI. On my server crafting was ruined from the start. JP players had crafted seemingly non-stop prior to any form of NA/EU launch. Equipment prices were low but crafting material prices were high. I already see it going the same way with FFXIV.

Remember the NPC's in FFXI who wanted bat wings, rabbit skins, treant bulbs etc? We need to have NPC's who want armor/weapons/tools. Maybe the guilds could buy weapons/armors/tool that benefit their members (NPC's). They don't have to pay enough to make you filthy rich but it should be enough to keep you going. This would keep items from flooding the economy, rotting in bazaars or on retainers.
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#30 Sep 28 2010 at 3:14 PM Rating: Good
Items in FFXIV do vendor for quite a bit more than they ever would have in FFXIV, now I'm not sure ho that applies to crafted goods as I only really work on crafted PARTS currently. However I beleive it would be unrealistic to state that the finished product should be far in payback than the sum of it's parts. A bit more yes but go too far then we run into RMT crafting exploits.

So it's a hard line to walk and so far I like the vender amounts for drops at least. I'll have to wait on seeing the crafting results.
#31 Sep 28 2010 at 3:18 PM Rating: Decent
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Or you could just say, "this game needs an ah" , problem fixed ;)
#32 Sep 28 2010 at 3:32 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Point against the OP:

Damaged gear cannot be traded or placed in bazaar.

Sure, you could spend the money to repair the item and then cycle it back in, but likely the player instead of going through that level of trial (if they're defiantly not a crafter) will likely NPC the weapon or item.

Now of course some will cycle it back into circulation, in which that is an inevitability of any game. But you still have repairs and furher upgrades of gear to work with.

Your point against the OP is that repairing -- a pivotal, class-defining role of crafters -- is so much of a tedious hassle that people simply won't do it?
#33 Sep 28 2010 at 3:35 PM Rating: Good
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Refresherize wrote:
Your point against the OP is that repairing -- a pivotal, class-defining role of crafters -- is so much of a tedious hassle that people simply won't do it?

And he's probably right. I can't think of many non-crafters who will jump through all the hoops just to put one item back on the market. Either keep the item as a replacement, or NPC it for some quick cash.
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#34 Sep 28 2010 at 3:46 PM Rating: Decent
Quote:
Your point against the OP is that repairing -- a pivotal, class-defining role of crafters -- is so much of a tedious hassle that people simply won't do it?


No, quite the opposite. Is that reparing, being such a class defining role, will insure that crafters will still have a pourpose, even when/if perminants flood the market.

It will be that non-crafters will not pay the money to repair items just to resell. Nor can they be traded as damaged to resell. So perminants will have a stronger running through the game, up until the point where the base gets top heavy and the desires for items are limited to rare meterials dedicated crafters may not always get their hands on. But even then, there is the reapairs
#35 Sep 28 2010 at 3:47 PM Rating: Default
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Honestly does crafting make money in any game? The cost to level crafting even in ffxi was never recovered by prolly 75% of the people who did, I have always looked at crafting as a money sink and this game will prolly be no different
#36 Sep 28 2010 at 3:57 PM Rating: Decent
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Given that you can't sell damaged items they'll probably become hand-me-downs inside guilds if the scarcity of proper crafters I suspect we'll be seeing comes to pass. Why bazaar something if your buyer can't find it to purchase when you can do this:

/l hey dudes, got a copper barbut I need to dump, anyone want it for 5K?
#37 Sep 28 2010 at 4:19 PM Rating: Decent
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I thought the same thing when I started crafting in FFXI. At worst I think it will end with rare items to make HQ equipment.

I'm shur SE will change crafting, if crafting is not working as they thought it would.
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#38 Sep 28 2010 at 4:24 PM Rating: Decent
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Take a look at the recipes in FFXI and how the crafting economy turned out in that game.

it was to my understanding in the four years that i played that crafting was practicly dead and only a very few specific crafts were at all profitable. i wasnt a crafter myself though.
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#39 Sep 28 2010 at 4:31 PM Rating: Excellent
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There is an easy answer for all of this.

Make it so you can donate crafts to the guild for guild points. You get rid of abundant material and get something of value in return. With the guild points, you can trade them in for what is there now, and maybe extra items such as consumables to make better synths.

Done.
#40 Sep 28 2010 at 4:36 PM Rating: Decent
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spool wrote:
Honestly does crafting make money in any game? The cost to level crafting even in ffxi was never recovered by prolly 75% of the people who did, I have always looked at crafting as a money sink and this game will prolly be no different


I made money on every single synth while leveling my bonecraft from 60 to 100. And guess what, I npc'd most of it.
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#41 Sep 28 2010 at 4:37 PM Rating: Good
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If I remember correctly, you cannot trade a damaged item either.
#42 Sep 28 2010 at 4:41 PM Rating: Excellent
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spool wrote:
Honestly does crafting make money in any game? The cost to level crafting even in ffxi was never recovered by prolly 75% of the people who did, I have always looked at crafting as a money sink and this game will prolly be no different


If you are doing it right, yes.

I made easily over 100M gil in FFXI crafting & gardening. I had a steady stream of 250k per day from fishing.

There is a lot of room in the current system to be very profitable. My main area of concern is the 5000+ synths that it will require to cap a single class, and to be truly any good at it, all of the classes need to be leveled up semi-evenly.
#43 Sep 28 2010 at 5:07 PM Rating: Good
Quote:
Given that you can't sell damaged items they'll probably become hand-me-downs inside guilds if the scarcity of proper crafters I suspect we'll be seeing comes to pass. Why bazaar something if your buyer can't find it to purchase when you can do this:


Except, you can't. Damaged items are non-tradable. Unless the item has full endurance on it, it cannot be traded. Just confirmed this with an LS mate this morning.
#44 Sep 28 2010 at 5:18 PM Rating: Good
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I'm going to oversimplify what is obviously a well thought out post, please forgive me. You may have a better grasp on the bigger picture than I do.

For me, crafting is fun. I'm having a blast. It's challenging and requires alot of coordination. I can't wait to go home and skill up on the free crafting leve materials.

I think in time there will be inventory expansions available.

I've never had to actually coordinate with people about materials before. The lack of AH is actually making me be social about crafting.

RMT is going to have a crafting monopoly? This is not news.

I am not crafting to be rich. I want to make my own gear, and have fun. 130 hours? That's a pittance to on online game of this nature. Try 130 days. Wasting time and effort? That is what MMO's are all about!

The game is not going to die, there are too many people enjoying it for what it is, rather than condemning it for what it isn't.

I think you are trying to be helpful by pointing out obvious pitfalls in the current system, cheers for that. You do include alot of conjecture of what might happen, based on experience plainly, and yet the crafting system will surely be dynamic in ways that you cannot predict.

I don't think many people that are enjoying the game as it is are posting in threads such as this. Why bother? Will I change your perception any more than you have changed mine?

Ah, well. It's time to go home and enjoy my awesome new FF MMO.
#45 Sep 28 2010 at 5:24 PM Rating: Default
Point in case to the above poster:

Me: "Wow the boards are really filled with complaining and negativity."

Wife: "That's what forum boards are for, dear."

Me: "Yah but this time it's really taken to an extreme."

Wife: "That's what you say every time, dear."

Most my in game friends, have their own local boards to use, and don't even touch things like ZAM. Do they complain about the glitches? Sure thing, but they're still playing and loving the game.

Edited, Sep 28th 2010 7:27pm by Hyrist
#46 Sep 28 2010 at 5:40 PM Rating: Excellent
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I am not positive of course, but I believe SE announced in one of the recent interviews that they planned on making the BEST items come from crafting. We know they are trying to fully integrate the crafters into the world as classes. They have even suggested crafting "endgame". I think NMs and endgame events will not drop much if any gear. It will all be rare crafting materials. Then while there might be a million rank 50 pieces of armor and weapons, there will be a limit on super HQ weapons and armor.

Speculative Story:
Ok so we have our Warriors of the Light set out to defeat the evil Empire's MegaDoom Knight of Awesomeness. If its a timed instance, they will need the skill to get through it. Then at the end of the journey, our heros must face said MegaDoom Kinght. They will nedd the skill to defeat this evil being as well. So lets assume our heors prevail, what then?
Maybe we will need our Gatherers to mine the ultimate metal of the gods, that said evil being was gaurding. Our mighty Gatherers will need to have the skill to actually be able to mine this 1337 node. Ok so we will assume our Gatherers have shown that there hard work and effort has produced fruit. Now we our master Crafters to make these raw materials into super shiney goodness. This will of course require a lot of skill, with possible fail rates (i.e. FFXI).

While I admit I have no real evidence of such a situation. I fully expect it, from the direction SE seems to want this game to move. They want all classses to be actual classes. The leves are just a part of that. The interconnectedness is another big hint. My pretend scenario, might not be that far off from the truth. Personally while I dont fully disapprove of this, I always liked getting gear/weapon drops from NMs and events in FFXI more so than buying/making crafted gear. Approx. 90% of all my gear was Rare/Ex, which was they way I liked it.
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#47 Sep 28 2010 at 5:47 PM Rating: Decent
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I think there is a misunderstanding of what I meant by 130 hours.

130 hours is the time that you will be pressing "Rapid Synth" over and over in the selection menu hoping your glowy ball doesn't explode. The actual time crafting will be many times greater due to finding mats, getting guild support, dumping your results, managing your inventory, etc.

If it was just 130 hours I wouldn't blink an eye at it. I spent about 23 solid hours powergrinding a single craft (via quests) in Aion, so 130 wouldn't be much of a stretch since this has more interaction. It wouldn't be a stretch, however, to think that for every minute crafting you will probably spend 5 just trying to make room in your bags. Finding materials and shards will be many multiples of that.

As for me it's time to hire a third retainer. Fffff.
#48 Sep 28 2010 at 5:50 PM Rating: Default
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It all depends on which way Square Enix wants this economy to go. If they want it to end up like FFXI, which isn't necessarily bad, then they are on the right track more or less. If they want it to be a true-to-life player run economy (or as close as you can get) then they need to follow a model akin to EVE Online.

In short an AH like system or the ability to search retainers is an absolute must either way. The destruction of your equipment or some sort of mechanic where equipment must be continuously remade is necesary for a true economy.

Unfortunately all the whiners would take their 800 subscriptions and leave if their +1 Sword of Doom were to shatter on them.
#49 Sep 28 2010 at 7:17 PM Rating: Default
The nifty thing about being a crafter able to make gear from scratch (ie. not buying components from other players) is that if there's no market for the gear I'm making, I can just sell it to an NPC and unless I wanted to nitpick about opportunity cost, I'm still making gil. I just made a bunch of Hempen Workers Gloves. Got a +1 on the first attempt and since I had the mats and needed the skill, I figured I'd bust through a few more to see what turned up. Not even another +1, but at ~650gil each to the vendor, I still walked away with some skill and more gil than I had when I started.

People will learn how to make the system work for them or they'll whine. That's all there is to it. I just wish the whiners would ****** off already. It's getting old.
#50 Sep 29 2010 at 3:21 AM Rating: Default
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I want to start off by acknowledging the op for being one of the few people who actually posted an argument/debatable topic instead of just a random whine. You may not be right but atleast you took the time to crunch some numbers and make a real complaint not a whine.

I do think some sort of item decay should happen in the game to help crafters stay relevant. The fact that armor can simply be repaired and resold an infinite amount of times does, whether people want to admit it or not, reduce the number crafters needed to produce items.

I would love to see a system where items decay and once they are repaired lose a percentage of overal durability. So say you have and item with 100 durability. Once it gets to 50% you will get the message stating your gear is getting dull or worn or whatever and needs repair. Ok so you go repair it, now instead of it repairing to 100 durability it now is 95 overall durability. This now means that eventually your armor will "break" and its time to get a replacement. This approach if the decay time is adjusted right will not affect you while you are leveling because your gear will not break faster then you will level into new and better gear. It would be aimed more at high end game gear so that it does not stagnate eventually.

On top of this seeing as how you can resell gear once you have outleveled it or found better stuff, those people might have a harder time finding a buyer for an item that has say 75% overall durabilty left. This means that sparkly newly crafted gear will be in higher demend then resales and will of course benefit crafters again. These resells can also be nice for newly level capped people, as some may have just gotten into a high end LS and need some cheap level cap starter gear to help hold them over til they get awesome gear from their LS events, and the resells will be cheaper then going brand new.

Im not saying that what the OP forsees happing will indeed happen, but I do think that demand will be far below supply if trends continue with how crafting is thus far and how gear works. Thats not good for crafters.
#51 Sep 29 2010 at 3:33 AM Rating: Default
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Easiest solution: Use the repair system of Fallout 3 - in order to repair an AK 47 you need another AK 47 (which will be consumed).

But then people will complain Repairing is too hard/expensive.
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