Forum Settings
       
« Previous 1 2
This Forum is Read Only

FFXIV Takes Skill - WoW is EasymodeFollow

#1 Sep 29 2010 at 3:34 AM Rating: Default
23 posts
There are about a million posts complaining about FFXIVs current status. Most of the response from people who like the game tends to be based on:

- FFXIV taking some sort of skill, and the people complaining being too used to easy mode games that a 2-year old mashing on one button could exel at.

- FFXIV takes patience, and that patience will be rewarded.

I _really_ want to like the game, and have been looking forward to it... for over a year. However, I'm not understanding where the Skill or Patience comes in. I'd prefer to make an educated decision on sticking with the game or not, and not just a knee-jerk reaction based on my level 1-20 impressions. I was hoping some people could provide some insight as to the Skill and Patience in the game.

Currently I don't consider the clunky interface, menu system, combat system, crafting system, leve system ... or anything really as requiring any sort of skill. Patience, yes... but only from an additional investment of time to achieve something - not from any enhanced challenge or difficulty level.

If you wish to flame on, fine... but I'm actually looking for constructive feedback to somewhat convince me to stick it out - that it will pay off. I think this is what most people are looking for... the "why" for playing the game.

Edited, Sep 29th 2010 5:36am by mocorcim
#2 Sep 29 2010 at 3:39 AM Rating: Good
Scholar
***
1,948 posts
Have you tried crafting a rank 15 item? Crafting system does take a bit more skill as you goes up, you don't just click one button all the way anymore.
____________________________




#3 Sep 29 2010 at 3:43 AM Rating: Decent
**
263 posts
In a nutshell, FFXIV is a whole bunch of RNG thrown together, players attempt to decode RNG and, I guess, it's like solving a puzzle?

Horses for courses, really.
At this point the skill element of the GAMEPLAY is not known as group play is largely undefined. So the answer is, we don't know what the skill element is yet.

#4 Sep 29 2010 at 3:46 AM Rating: Excellent
Scholar
**
568 posts
Most FF MMO fans that I've run into (not saying they're all like this) confuse time investment with skill requirement.

Which is retarded as all get out.

Not that FFXI didn't have its skill-based moments, but a good majority of it required just as much actual skill as any "easy-mode" MMO out there; it just took five times as long to get it done.

SE is pretty lucky that a lot of its fans can't tell the difference, because time-wasters are a big part of keeping your MMO going and the more you can dupe people into falling for them the better (from a business point of view).

Really hoping XIV has a steeper skill requirement than XI. The truly difficult parts of XI were quite nice.
#5 Sep 29 2010 at 3:46 AM Rating: Default
23 posts
I've only gotten crafting to rank 13 as an Alchemist. So far all the information I've read is basically "Spam Rapid to skill up better".

Do the colors actually come more into play once you get higher? I've not really seen any definitive information on the color system as it is... just the basic "White = standard, Yellow = Rapid, Red = Bold, Sparks/Multi = Wait Once or Twice then use Standard". Everyone seems to have their own method though I guess.. personally I've just been spamming random and have only failed once out of a couple hundred craft attempts.

#6 Sep 29 2010 at 3:48 AM Rating: Good
Scholar
**
764 posts
Doing high lv leves on high difficulties I can tell you that movement and positioning is indeed very important, knowing where to move on a mob and its skills can save your life and others as well. Having people even who aren't tanks ready to taunt off weaker or weakened players is very important as well and soloing red enemies generally takes a lot of movement and correct skill stacking the higher I get.

I have found plenty that requires skill in this game, some of it is still hard to tell due to being new etc. but the higher rank I get the more I like the combat.

edit: sorry more in depth

As far as enemy positioning, aside from the usuals like circle aoe, and frontal cone, there are odder ones like Cactuars who cone front and behind but not sides (or so it seemed from our leve last night). When doing harder leves with sturdy enemies, the fight isn't easily controlled, the enemies can quickly run off at different targets and depending on that target either someone needs to taunt it off or they need to maneuver the enemy into a more advantageous position, depending on its skills. I find myself constantly changing position in fights and at times placing taunt on my bar to keep the casters safe or save a dying tank. You don't so much control the enemies as much as you try control the fight and I like that.

You need to move quickly if you aren't in the right position when they start to charge, also SE has said that different enemeis have different behaviors and it holds true. I notice Dodo's like to gather 3000 TP then spam charge ups, while wight's are more likely to use their attacks when someone is getting low on HP. Cactuars rarely use 1k needles until they are low on health, then they try to quickly kill you off (so I get them low then ferocity a trunk splitter before they get it off). Knowing your enemies behavior can help you know when to be ready for their attacks.

Also coming in is skills, I have started to dabble into multiple classes and finding I really enjoy mixing skills from many classes to try and make them more effective in specific area's or cover weaknesses and recently my Marauder has been performing better.

There is likely more that isn't undiscovered, its too early to tell or sort everything out yet but Id have to say my early impressions of combat were "meh" but as I started grouping getting more skills and doing hard difficulty leves, it has gotten much funner and far more interactive.

For crafting I am not far enough to really tell.

Edited, Sep 29th 2010 5:54am by Silverwyrm

Edited, Sep 29th 2010 5:57am by Silverwyrm
____________________________


#7 Sep 29 2010 at 3:52 AM Rating: Decent
Scholar
**
691 posts
Really, its not random numbers, its set values and how those values interact with other set values versus another set value...RNG is an excuse people have been using for why they miss, get owned by X red mob but not X orange mob, or why they fail a synth.

So far gathering and crafting and nearly 100% proper stat stacking and skill, especially if you want to HQ items. Combat is also a mix of skill, stats, and how those stats interact with an enemy's stats; if you move behind a dodo before it belches it won't hit you, and if you move from where you are when a mole burrows, it won't hit you..if you move behind a somersaulting rat, it won't hit you either. If anything, I'd say the game is turning out to be very similar to TERA in terms of combat. It's not like WoW where you will be hit regardless of how fast you react if you are tanking. You can actually avoid around 50% of damage so far (as a DoW anyways) by simply moving around. Also, certain enemies have weak sides, for example dodos are prone to being hit from their right side and also take increased damage from it, while some moves also do increased damage and have increased accuracy from certain angles. I won't go into details, but the game is actually insanely complex to the point that most games just seem simple.
#8 Sep 29 2010 at 3:56 AM Rating: Good
***
2,815 posts
Quote:
Also, certain enemies have weak sides, for example dodos are prone to being hit from their right side and also take increased damage from it, while some moves also do increased damage and have increased accuracy from certain angles. I won't go into details, but the game is actually insanely complex to the point that most games just seem simple.

Seems like the basis for a good info thread. *hint hint*

But yeah as he says below you'd almost certainly be up for scrutiny, but in the end we'd figure out the facts. I do agree there has to be some connection to where you hit a monster, because the log specified where you hit from all the time in beta, only sometimes now. And also SE said that certain monsters can be 'disarmed' by using the right attack at the right angle.

It would be nice to get together a list of what monster is weak to what side, what attacks work better from where, and which monster attack can be avoided and how.

Edited, Sep 29th 2010 5:59am by RattyBatty
____________________________
Minecraft : My anti-MMO
Terraria : My anti-Minecraft
#9 Sep 29 2010 at 3:56 AM Rating: Good
**
263 posts
Uryuu wrote:
Really, its not random numbers, its set values and how those values interact with other set values versus another set value...RNG is an excuse people have been using for why they miss, get owned by X red mob but not X orange mob, or why they fail a synth.

So far gathering and crafting and nearly 100% proper stat stacking and skill, especially if you want to HQ items. Combat is also a mix of skill, stats, and how those stats interact with an enemy's stats; if you move behind a dodo before it belches it won't hit you, and if you move from where you are when a mole burrows, it won't hit you..if you move behind a somersaulting rat, it won't hit you either. If anything, I'd say the game is turning out to be very similar to TERA in terms of combat. It's not like WoW where you will be hit regardless of how fast you react if you are tanking. You can actually avoid around 50% of damage so far (as a DoW anyways) by simply moving around. Also, certain enemies have weak sides, for example dodos are prone to being hit from their right side and also take increased damage from it, while some moves also do increased damage and have increased accuracy from certain angles. I won't go into details, but the game is actually insanely complex to the point that most games just seem simple.


Hehehe, this is exactly what I mean.
How certain are you of your theories. I bet a dollar there's others who think otherwise.
#10 Sep 29 2010 at 4:08 AM Rating: Good
*
220 posts
Dodos are weak on their right sides? That makes complete sense. How foolish of us. There's no RNG, guys. We just need to craft while facing NE, wearing our bone rings only on our left hands, and singing the Pledge of Allegiance.
____________________________
Character: Drass Lightweaver
Server: Palamecia
#11 Sep 29 2010 at 5:17 AM Rating: Good
*
83 posts
mocorcim wrote:
There are about a million posts complaining about FFXIVs current status. Most of the response from people who like the game tends to be based on:

- FFXIV taking some sort of skill, and the people complaining being too used to easy mode games that a 2-year old mashing on one button could exel at.

- FFXIV takes patience, and that patience will be rewarded.

I _really_ want to like the game, and have been looking forward to it... for over a year. However, I'm not understanding where the Skill or Patience comes in. I'd prefer to make an educated decision on sticking with the game or not, and not just a knee-jerk reaction based on my level 1-20 impressions. I was hoping some people could provide some insight as to the Skill and Patience in the game.

Currently I don't consider the clunky interface, menu system, combat system, crafting system, leve system ... or anything really as requiring any sort of skill. Patience, yes... but only from an additional investment of time to achieve something - not from any enhanced challenge or difficulty level.

If you wish to flame on, fine... but I'm actually looking for constructive feedback to somewhat convince me to stick it out - that it will pay off. I think this is what most people are looking for... the "why" for playing the game.

Edited, Sep 29th 2010 5:36am by mocorcim


Since WoW is so easy, can you link me your armory with your hardmode achievements? Your arena ratings? How does this game require skill? Patience would be the better term.

I find this whole button mashing thing people are saying funny. I never mashed buttons in wow. There is a smart and bad way to play WoW.

People are just getting mad, because as it stands FFXIV has nothing, when in this day and age it should. Like myself I bought a 480 and a new monitor for this game...I want it to be awesome. So far its not. As a 16-17 THM the best way to get XP as of last night was for me to solo grind. Favor from Leve's was not giving me a increase anymore on non leve mobs, and I found it a waste of time to go to the camp to start the leve. So I grind on blue rated mobs all day, because SE was smart and did not place many green rated mobs, as I would level fast and play less. So far I am getting the feeling this game was designed around it being a time sink, and not me having fun.





Edited, Sep 29th 2010 7:32am by Remidi
#12 Sep 29 2010 at 5:31 AM Rating: Excellent
Remidi wrote:
mocorcim wrote:
There are about a million posts complaining about FFXIVs current status. Most of the response from people who like the game tends to be based on:

- FFXIV taking some sort of skill, and the people complaining being too used to easy mode games that a 2-year old mashing on one button could exel at.

- FFXIV takes patience, and that patience will be rewarded.

I _really_ want to like the game, and have been looking forward to it... for over a year. However, I'm not understanding where the Skill or Patience comes in. I'd prefer to make an educated decision on sticking with the game or not, and not just a knee-jerk reaction based on my level 1-20 impressions. I was hoping some people could provide some insight as to the Skill and Patience in the game.

Currently I don't consider the clunky interface, menu system, combat system, crafting system, leve system ... or anything really as requiring any sort of skill. Patience, yes... but only from an additional investment of time to achieve something - not from any enhanced challenge or difficulty level.

If you wish to flame on, fine... but I'm actually looking for constructive feedback to somewhat convince me to stick it out - that it will pay off. I think this is what most people are looking for... the "why" for playing the game.

Edited, Sep 29th 2010 5:36am by mocorcim


Since WoW is so easy, can you link me your armory with your hardmode achievements? Your arena ratings? How does this game require skill? Patience would be the better term.

I find this whole button mashing thing people are saying funny. I never mashed buttons in wow. There is a smart and bad way to play WoW.

Edited, Sep 29th 2010 7:22am by Remidi


Psssst. You're on the same side.
#13 Sep 29 2010 at 5:33 AM Rating: Decent
*
83 posts
Yoshi got me before my last edit :p..need more coffee.
#14 Sep 29 2010 at 5:33 AM Rating: Decent
36 posts
WoW is easy and it's becoming boring, it's why i'm attempting to get back into (what I hoped was better than XI) this ff mmo stuff. Not saying it requires skill, but it's different, pleasantly different.

I didn't do Citadel before you ask but was glad from s2 through 7 as a priest before I realised there was no new decent PvP content coming and sold my account. It bought my gf a new jacket and paid for half my car insurance which was the only real thing i've gotten out of WoW recently.

I consider myself reasonably WoW'd out although have a short attention span for PvE and even i'd say it was easy. You can stick your hardmode scripted encounters where the sun doesn't shine because gear requirements and finding 25 non retarded people is super serial. It amazes me people use hardmodes in WOTLK as a benchmark for being good. All the good players used pre-nerf Sunwell or some of the Vanny Dragons anyway, so please, don't snap at our fellow Ex-WoW bretheren for making a justified and valid point even if it is just the opinion of the majority of the older community. On a slightly more on topic note, and the reason for my reply, it's people like you with the attitude of scrub-calls that have slowly warped WoW from something fun to something entirely and utterly awful. Some of the nicest people i've played with are awful at the game and I still ENJOYED playing with them. A game is just that. I don't have to be an *** just because I can do well in arena. Nor should you.


Eh, editing: in that the post sounds a little aggressive/trollish but it's not meant to be. Just saying that i'm not awful at the game and the constant need to place yourself above others with that term has become one of the things thats annoyed me over the last year and a bit of WoW. The rest of your post is awesome, just please, stop calling people scrubs.


Edited, Sep 29th 2010 7:40am by Rawrfaceamg
#15 Sep 29 2010 at 6:10 AM Rating: Default
Scholar
**
764 posts
WoW has A hard mode dungeon that could be considered hard. Just one. Arena is pendant on if you like PvP or not as not everyone likes that. Also my problem with WoW is not necessarily button mashing (which you do do in the easier parts which are most of it...) but even the "hard" fights consist of you hitting your predefined rotation in its predefined order, while waiting for the bosses predefined actions/summons/abilities to take place, most of which you know when he/she/it will do to the second.

In FFXIV from my grouping experience with "higher" leves (which are still early game) I am more and more finding need to move and act to the situation rather than simply "what I already know will happen" and I find that much more enjoyable.

With that said, it seriously is far too early to say "too easy too hard blahblahblah" we haven't even gotten half to the current maximum rank yet. If I said WoW was stupid easy based purely on a RFC/DM run, would that not be a stupid statement made far too early in the game?


Also not sure how your doing your leves but I usually get great SP but sometimes lolrandom is lolrandom (that needs work..) maybe its because I go with groups on high difficulty settings? Also I duo regularly for my grinding and its way better than soloing if your hitting the right targets. I find things, punch them, run away until I find right target and now I know for the future what to go for.

Edited, Sep 29th 2010 8:15am by Silverwyrm
____________________________


#16 Sep 29 2010 at 7:28 AM Rating: Excellent
Annoying Ass
ZAM Administrator
Avatar
*****
12,049 posts
Not too much to add, but it's impossible to say FFXIV is hard or easy right now... because it's just unknown. No one is too sure how the mechanics work. Heck, we don't even know all the mechanics in FFXI, and that's been around for 8 years in NA. Square-enix doesn't like to reveal how their mechanics work; Blizzard has no issue doing so. Once players figure out how most of the mechanics work, then maybe we can call the game "easy" or "hard." From what I've seen, it seems that at the very least FFXIV requires more steps (like in crafting) or time (like in fighting). Not sure what that'll say about skill though, especially once we know the steps.
____________________________
Retired News Writer for the ZAM Network
WoW - Aureliano the Insane - level 90 Druid on Sen'Jin
Nanaoki - level 90 Mage on Sen'Jin
#17 Sep 29 2010 at 7:50 AM Rating: Default
***
1,408 posts
This is an old arguement which to me only some one who play's both can describe. I spent some months playing WoW to see what the fuss was about some years ago. I did find it easy to get in to and easy to stick with it. I found little trouble with anything. In fact the only trouble I had was the community shall we say.

As for FFXI, I found it semi easy to get in to and semi hard to stick to it. And this was with some one helping right away. Yet the individual matters in this game, where as the Nuker, Healer, Tank must do their job right. The perfectly timed stun. One single move from one person can pretty much avoid a wipe. Now WoW has similar things it never to me relied on a single person as much as FFXI did.

Of course things have more changed now but I still end up being a WHM and if I ***** up that ruins everything. That to me is the difference between WoW and FFXI. FFXI requires the individual who is good at their job. Where as WoW it doesnt seem to matter so much.

With FF14, so far it seems much more easier to get in to then FFXI. But like others have said no one yet? has really pushed it. I personally think FF14 will be inbetween FFXI and WoW. The perfect blend between the two.

____________________________


If my velocity starts to make you sweat, then just don't
let go
#18 Sep 29 2010 at 8:42 AM Rating: Decent
Avatar
**
410 posts
I'm not going to try to convince someone to like FFXIV. If you've played it and don't like it, great. I don't consider it harder or easier than WoW. I do recognize that it will take significantly more time to advance than WoW. From my perspective, WoW is for gamers who like fast advancement and instant gratification.
#19 Sep 29 2010 at 9:01 AM Rating: Decent
Scholar
22 posts
I think it would be better/more entertaining and challenging if you had to work to hunt, gather and craft, not just hit a button and wait for it to do stuff for you.. That's what ALL the other MMO's out there do and I honestly thought FFXIV would be "the new era of MMO's" but I guess I was wrong :/ Fair enough, it's got some fancy stuff for DoH and DoH but other than that, it's...OH, and then there's the graphics (if you can afford to spend your life savings on a new video card) aswell.. where was I?.. Ah, yes.. but other than that (and that), it's pretty much like most other MMO's.

Archers should have to aim manually, that's skill..

DoM should have to chant spells and conjure elements, etc..use your imagination >.>

DoL & DoH are a bit better when it comes to needing skill to preform actions but still not quite there.. it's more luck than skill imo.

I don't really know what to say about the other DoW... They just don't tickle my fancy at all :/


I have to say, I was a bit disappointed when I opened the CE box and nothing spectacularly extraordinary happened.. no fancy music, no rays of light and no moogle popping out to congratulate me, Kupo! ...I almost cried!
#20 Sep 29 2010 at 9:39 AM Rating: Excellent
Guru
*
106 posts
Silverwyrm wrote:
WoW has A hard mode dungeon that could be considered hard. Just one. Arena is pendant on if you like PvP or not as not everyone likes that. Also my problem with WoW is not necessarily button mashing (which you do do in the easier parts which are most of it...) but even the "hard" fights consist of you hitting your predefined rotation in its predefined order, while waiting for the bosses predefined actions/summons/abilities to take place, most of which you know when he/she/it will do to the second.

In FFXIV from my grouping experience with "higher" leves (which are still early game) I am more and more finding need to move and act to the situation rather than simply "what I already know will happen" and I find that much more enjoyable.

Edited, Sep 29th 2010 8:15am by Silverwyrm


Given the way you describe the FFXIV combat, i think the skills involved in the two games are just a little different. That sounds more reactionary where WoW is more about being proactive. You still have to react, but you know more or less when an event is going to occur and it's more about being prepared for it.

There are plenty of fights in WoW that DO require lots of skill. The difference is that WoW is more about learning a fight and then devising a good plan and executing it to perfection. There are still some random elements to it, but the majority of it is eliminating the unknown and controlling the situation. Of course you still have to be pushing the correct buttons in the correct order while properly executing the greater strategy. There's absolutely nothing easy about that in the harder fights. Almost all wipes in WoW occur because somebody screwed up, not because RNG dealt you an impossible situation.

And a big part of why WoW is so much "easier" now is because we know the systems inside-out and that information allows us to optimize our performance. There are "preset rotations" because we have mountains of data available showing us what combination of skills/abilities/attributes yield the best results. We know where to position ourselves in fights because all of the enemy abilities have long-since been discovered and posted all over the internet. We know which mobs cleave, which do frontal AOE, which make bad things appear on the ground, etc. All of that information makes things so much simpler and clear-cut.

Of course I'm strictly talking about fight mechanics in this post. Almost everything else in WoW (esp crafting and gathering) really is much, much simpler and less involved... often to the point of being mind-numbing.

Edited, Sep 29th 2010 11:42am by Izuul
#21 Sep 29 2010 at 10:06 AM Rating: Default
24 posts
Shouldn't this post be locked? It's just a troll post by a troll that can't come up with anything original.

Trolling is an art and you just failed.
#22 Sep 29 2010 at 10:09 AM Rating: Decent
36 posts
Totalstupidity wrote:
Trolling is a art and you just failed.


Fixed that for you.


Edited, Sep 29th 2010 12:09pm by Rawrfaceamg
#23 Sep 29 2010 at 10:09 AM Rating: Excellent
Sage
***
1,675 posts
Keitre wrote:
Most FF MMO fans that I've run into (not saying they're all like this) confuse time investment with skill requirement.

Which is retarded as all get out.

Not that FFXI didn't have its skill-based moments, but a good majority of it required just as much actual skill as any "easy-mode" MMO out there; it just took five times as long to get it done.

SE is pretty lucky that a lot of its fans can't tell the difference, because time-wasters are a big part of keeping your MMO going and the more you can dupe people into falling for them the better (from a business point of view).

Really hoping XIV has a steeper skill requirement than XI. The truly difficult parts of XI were quite nice.



Well put.

I would argue that real "skill" is the ability to think in real time and react and respond "correctly" in varying situations.

Eventually though everything comes in patterns and memorization, thus resulting in a "skill-less" game. And of course the initial times of say dealing with an ADD (FFXI) or dealing with a ganker (WoW) require skill.

WoW and FFXI have those things which require skill, and I can see that in FFXIV as well.

But like you say, there's the obviousness of time sinks and there's not. FFXI did not hide the fact that it took 3 hours to set up a CoP run, or Rank mission or whatever, and to most who played (and in part me when I did have the time) find those sort of time-sinks a bit endearing.

I don't know if its delayed gratification, or a badge of honor or what? It may be because (at least in FFXI) when things took so long, it provided the opportunity to become as efficient as possible; to set up a perfect group; which in some ways took other kind of skills, social skills.
#24 Sep 29 2010 at 10:58 AM Rating: Excellent
**
773 posts
Sometimes it seems though that SE confuses challenging with frustrating. Building a computer is challenging and rewarding. (for some people) Now lets say that instead simply walking from your house to the street to get the mail you had to go through a ridiculous maze.

Yes, WOW has nerfed the game somewhat. Of course WOW appeals more to those who like PvP or raiding. Then there is Aion, a game where a low level can use any flight path without having to open it up, but also encourages attacks from enemy players, whether you want to PvP or not.

I will be honest about one thing. I like FF, but I don't really like SE. They have the most customer unfriendly management style I have ever seen. It would really be nice if we didn't have to send two Jedi's to Japan to find out why they won't fix alt/tab.
____________________________
"We apologize for the inconvenience"
- SE Cruciatus Curse




#25 Sep 29 2010 at 11:27 AM Rating: Excellent
**
472 posts
Addyyuna wrote:
I will be honest about one thing. I like FF, but I don't really like SE. They have the most customer unfriendly management style I have ever seen. It would really be nice if we didn't have to send two Jedi's to Japan to find out why they won't fix alt/tab.


Yeah, I'd have to agree with that statement. The only thing that makes final fantasy games harder than another MMO's is squeenix customer/technical service.

Also, I laugh at people that say that FFXIV is more difficult to play than wow. If it was, you would be seeing a ton of people asking complicated questions (not technical support related) and no one would reply with an answer for two weeks and you wouldn't be able to find the answer using a search engine. There is very little learning curve to this game, just like any other MMO, it has its own terminology. FFXIV is the only button mashing game that I have played in years. I literally sit there and spam the key for my shadowdart, while waiting for my tp gauge to refill. Sometimes I roll my face across the keyboard for efficiency, when I need to go to hands free mode. Can't wait to get my copy tomorrow. My post may sound negative, but I actually do enjoy the final fantasy series. I just get tired of all the uninformed comparisons that people make from one MMO to another. Bah... my laundry is ready...
#26 Sep 29 2010 at 11:28 AM Rating: Excellent
***
1,636 posts
Wow is an older game, thats removed alot of the time sinks, to allow current and new players to get to content they want, typically level capped content. FFXIV is a new game, thats still full of time sinks. Neither of these have anything to do with skill.
____________________________


#27 Sep 29 2010 at 11:38 AM Rating: Default
**
800 posts
Parsalyn wrote:
Also, I laugh at people that say that FFXIV is more difficult to play than wow. If it was, you would be seeing a ton of people asking complicated questions (not technical support related) and no one would reply with an answer for two weeks and you wouldn't be able to find the answer using a search engine. There is very little learning curve to this game, just like any other MMO, it has its own terminology. FFXIV is the only button mashing game that I have played in years. I literally sit there and spam the key for my shadowdart, while waiting for my tp gauge to refill. Sometimes I roll my face across the keyboard for efficiency, when I need to go to hands free mode. Can't wait to get my copy tomorrow. My post may sound negative, but I actually do enjoy the final fantasy series. I just get tired of all the uninformed comparisons that people make from one MMO to another. Bah... my laundry is ready...


Oh? So you know what the different colors mean while crafting? You know how perception, output, crafting, and mag. crafting bonuses work? You seem to be past the learning curve, so maybe you should write a guide for those of us who haven't already figured everything out.

Also, if you're fighting by just spamming spirit dart you're fighting easy enemies. It's not the game's fault you don't want to challenge yourself. Try fighting orange or red mobs and you'll learn you can't just "button mash" them.

Difficulty in an MMO is completely up to the player. You can play "easy mode" in any game by spam-crafting low level items, fighting low level mobs, doing Dynamis with 64 players, etc. Or you can challenge yourself by fighting higher level mobs, soloing party oriented content, low-manning an end game event, etc.
#28 Sep 29 2010 at 11:41 AM Rating: Excellent
Scholar
*
123 posts
Hydragyrum wrote:
Difficulty in an MMO is completely up to the player. You can play "easy mode" in any game by spam-crafting low level items, fighting low level mobs, doing Dynamis with 64 players, etc. Or you can challenge yourself by fighting higher level mobs, soloing party oriented content, low-manning an end game event, etc.


Exactly. Which makes FFXIV no harder or easier than any other MMO out there.

Now let's talk about functionality, social tools, market systems, and content.

Ohh, yea, that's been covered already. The verdict is pretty much out.
____________________________
i5-750 @3.4ghz/4gb DDR-1600/HD5770

Hundah - EQ2:80sk(Befallen) *current
Hunda - FFXI:75pld(fairy->hades) *retired
Measure - EQ2:90trb,90def(Lucan D'Lere) *sold
#29 Sep 29 2010 at 11:44 AM Rating: Good
*
172 posts
All mmos seem to have the same skill requirement for each class.

Healing is like babysitting, ok kids, don't do anything stupid!

Tanking is like working an assembly line...NEXT!

DPSing is like a race, but usually the same guy always wins, and it's like nascar where the way they win is going around in circles over and over. (Repeating the most dmging combo over and over)

I can't wait till MMORPGs incorporate fighting games (Tekken, Street Fighter etc,) or first person shooter (Counter-Strike, TF2) type of gameplay into them CORRECTLY, that will be a true test of skill, not this whole, "Whoever wastes more of their life playing this game has the most l33t skillz0rs!"

But basically this whole thread is just making fun of the moronic fanboys who think FFXIV takes some massive amount of skill. So far that has yet to be proven because this game is basically still in beta, and it's designed around slowing you down from getting to the end-game content.

End-game Raids will be the true test of this MMORPG's skill level, how hard they are will be how hard this mmo is, but seeing as noone has reached them or even knows they exist... this game doesn't require skill yet. I quit WoW when i realized raids were getting way too easy and the only challenge i had was finding enough people who weren't morons to do them with, but that seems to be the biggest challenge any MMO has to offer. The social challenge.
=

Edited, Sep 29th 2010 1:48pm by Nokturnal
#30 Sep 29 2010 at 11:58 AM Rating: Default
**
773 posts
Every time Blizzard comes up with a new expansion, they essentially nerf the low-level content to get everyone into the new stuff faster. This time they are going to redo the entire game. Not that surprising. Actually kind of glad Vanadiel isn't going to get the Cataclysm treatment
____________________________
"We apologize for the inconvenience"
- SE Cruciatus Curse




#31nick2412, Posted: Sep 29 2010 at 12:08 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Woah chill out there... Did you just say that pressing a couple keyboard buttons is considered skill? Casting buffs before a battle, healing when your/teammate health is low.. debuffing mobs.. using meta type combo's for each class.. oh wait a minute that is common sense.. sorry skill is reserved for game that require reflexes and thinking.. i.e. puzzle games and shooters of any kind..
#32 Sep 29 2010 at 12:14 PM Rating: Good
Scholar
***
1,104 posts
mocorcim wrote:
- FFXIV taking some sort of skill, and the people complaining being too used to easy mode games that a 2-year old mashing on one button could exel at.
- FFXIV takes patience, and that patience will be rewarded.
Patience I'll give you, but skill? Its a video game, and a poorly developed and implemented one at that. You PRESS BUTTONS. A monkey could do it. Any claim of a game taking 'skill' is highly dubious, get over yourself.
____________________________

Melaahna Valiera
#33 Sep 29 2010 at 12:24 PM Rating: Excellent
**
800 posts
Timorith wrote:
Patience I'll give you, but skill? Its a video game, and a poorly developed and implemented one at that. You PRESS BUTTONS. A monkey could do it. Any claim of a game taking 'skill' is highly dubious, get over yourself.


Just to play devils advocate here, ALL computer games require you to just "press buttons", therefore by your logic no computer games require skill. Right?

"Skill" can be defined in many ways. Some people seem to think only FPS style reactions are considered "skill". But many MMO activities are also "skills". Working the economy is a skill. Performing appropriate buffs/debuffs in differing battles is a skill. Solving puzzles or navigating mazes is a skill. And yes, there are frequently moments where FPS style reactions are very useful in unpredicted circumstances.

This whole "Which game requires more skill" crap is getting old. All games require skills. Even the physical act of pushing the right buttons at the right times is a skill. Arguing about which game has more skill is just ridiculous.
#34 Sep 29 2010 at 12:57 PM Rating: Excellent
*
172 posts
nick2412 wrote:

Crafting in FFXIV is the only feature in the entire game that required any skill whatsoever


Actually if you played Everquest 2, the crafting in FFXIV is almost exactly like it, in that you have to actually think/look at what you're doing while crafting and respond, but it's not so much skill as strategy involved in the process. Skill would require more timing and having to aim instead of just press different buttons based on what's happening while you're trying to craft something.


The only way they're going to have an auction house + retainers is basically by copying Everquest 2 as well.
(Having retainers still sell items, the items are linked to the auction house, the auction house would tell the location of the retainer and the retainer would have tax free goods, while the AH would have sales tax for everything)

In everquest 2 they have this system, instead of retainers though, you have boxes in your house.

Gathering, as boring as it is, requires the most actual skill in FFXIV, because you have to time your chops/digs so they hit the right place. Still mainly strategy, but it requires the most timing and aiming then anything else in the game. Which is really sad

Edited, Sep 29th 2010 3:05pm by Nokturnal
#35 Sep 29 2010 at 9:45 PM Rating: Default
23 posts
Timorith wrote:
mocorcim wrote:
- FFXIV taking some sort of skill, and the people complaining being too used to easy mode games that a 2-year old mashing on one button could exel at.
- FFXIV takes patience, and that patience will be rewarded.
Patience I'll give you, but skill? Its a video game, and a poorly developed and implemented one at that. You PRESS BUTTONS. A monkey could do it. Any claim of a game taking 'skill' is highly dubious, get over yourself.


So no game requires skill according to you? Interesting.
#36 Sep 29 2010 at 9:48 PM Rating: Excellent
***
3,448 posts
mocorcim wrote:
Timorith wrote:
mocorcim wrote:
- FFXIV taking some sort of skill, and the people complaining being too used to easy mode games that a 2-year old mashing on one button could exel at.
- FFXIV takes patience, and that patience will be rewarded.
Patience I'll give you, but skill? Its a video game, and a poorly developed and implemented one at that. You PRESS BUTTONS. A monkey could do it. Any claim of a game taking 'skill' is highly dubious, get over yourself.


So no game requires skill according to you? Interesting.


Playing a game at a high or professional level requires skill. Playing video games in general does not.
____________________________
svlyons wrote:
If random outcomes aren't acceptable to you, then don't play with random people.
#37Parsalyn, Posted: Sep 29 2010 at 9:56 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Too bad we didn't have forums and video games before WWI and WWII. I wonder if they talked about artillery spamming and crafting difficulties. Not to mention healing abilities getting the nerf.
#38 Sep 29 2010 at 10:04 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
***
1,536 posts
mocorcim wrote:
I've only gotten crafting to rank 13 as an Alchemist. So far all the information I've read is basically "Spam Rapid to skill up better".

Do the colors actually come more into play once you get higher? I've not really seen any definitive information on the color system as it is... just the basic "White = standard, Yellow = Rapid, Red = Bold, Sparks/Multi = Wait Once or Twice then use Standard". Everyone seems to have their own method though I guess.. personally I've just been spamming random and have only failed once out of a couple hundred craft attempts.



If you honestly only failed once in that many attempts doing what you described above, you're just real lucky. As SE has described, the orb color indicates whether you have great success on your next choice or low success. White (best) > Gold (okay) > red (bad) > rainbow (brutal/random)...basically, with crafting, depending on what you want to achieve you need to do certain things. When I have a white orb and low progress I hit rapid - when I have a white orb, high progress, decent to high durability I can risk using bold (high risk high reward)- and if I want to build up my craft to a point where I can try bold synth a few time, I try my best to stick with standard and work my way up to a high progress, decent durability. If you get a red orb, you typically wanna click "Wait" to change the color. With rainbow, to me it seems random and I think red is the worst orb, so with rainbow orb I usually go with standard because if i fail its not too risky. Also, at rank you learn an ability you can activate during crafting, equip that and play around with.

Personally I love crafting in this game, its the only part of the game functioning great right now and I spend a lot of time on it. I'll probably keep doing that until they fix combat and everything.
____________________________
MUTED
#39 Sep 29 2010 at 10:37 PM Rating: Good
2 posts
I wanted to like this game. I gave it a genuine try. I really did. The game is lacking soooo many features. Simple things. For starters, the UI blows. Streamline that so we dont have to confirm and go through 5 menus just to get to something. I shouldn't have to make a dozen macros just to switch my classes. Make Class profiles that saves your abilities and gear. ****, thats if you even HAVE gear. Good luck even finding gear you can afford. haha 60k a piece for 11 crafted gear. At 18 I have THREE pieces of gear even close to my level, the rest is garbage that lvl 5s can craft,

Hi loot sort? Gear sort? Maybe sort by level, sort by type, sort by type, or ****, even a way to move it MANUALLY in order?

Casual friendly? Hardly. Good luck getting ANY finished products from crafting without investing a lot of time collaborating with a dozen other crafters. Items take sometimes parts from FOUR different crafts. And the parts often take like 5 levels higher to make than putting together the actual item does!

DC during a leve? too bad. its gone. DC during a synth? too bad, all those mats gone.

Wanna rebind your keyboard? Okay, but you can only actually use 2/3 of the keys.

Wanna do some group levels ? Oh you're healing? Looks like no xp for you then. Hope your tanks don't die while youre sneaking in a few darts to get a lil xp cause the mobs hit for 1/3 of their health and always come 2+ at a time. Yeah, do the math.

Seriously, the games concept is amazing, I mean, how do you mess it up? Too bad using the abilities in combat isnt as exciting as it sounds. I have all these abilities put together and it doesn't even matter because most of them lower the xp you get by doing dmg and not giving xp, or doing a lot of dmg and rewarding less xp than just spirit darting.

Spirit dart, spirit dart, light slash , light slash, guard, heal, dart, dart,

Wanna actually nuke? TOO BAD you get far less xp for nuking than just darting

The worst thing thought is even if you do put in all that time and effort to finally get gear, level up, and grind out traits, what are you rewarded with? More grinding in gear thats ridiculously expensive and obscene and even harder to find someone to repair!

oi :(
#40 Sep 30 2010 at 12:12 AM Rating: Good
36 posts
Jambe wrote:
collaborating


You shouldn't use that word, it means nobody will ready your post past this point - instead going into what they call 'ice mode'. It's a temporary trance caused by a song which shall not be named, at a certain quality level (or lack thereof) which shall not be mentioned.

Did anyone see his film? He had a cheese grater for a hat.
#41 Sep 30 2010 at 1:03 AM Rating: Default
Scholar
**
751 posts
The player with no skill (who has usually spent most of his time playing WoW - like me) thinks this way.

"I cant kill that mob - it is too high level, I cant kill it. This is not a factor of skill, it is impossible to kill the mob"

The player with skill throws away his WoW "routines" and thinks to himself, this game rewards people who know how to play it rather than rewarding the 12 year olds which maintains our audience at 6m playesr. (s)he crafts some good gear that particuarly exposes the weakness of the mob. In battle, they are able to think on their feet and adjust to changing circumstances and the particular attacks the mob, they dont just spam buttons, because that is the way to die.

The difference is that the bad players dont even realise they are bad - they just blame the game for them being rubbish.

The good players have long since stopped complaining about the game and are currently working their backsides off to learn the strategies required. Thankfully the bad players will soon leave because the game is far too hard for them. They will never admit it to themselves, but then the profoundly stupid, dont realise they are profoundly stupid!
____________________________
FFXIV: Crafty Hallie, Ultros





#42 Sep 30 2010 at 1:05 AM Rating: Decent
Scholar
**
751 posts
Jambe wrote:


Wanna actually nuke? TOO BAD you get far less xp for nuking than just darting


oi :(


Why should this matter - its not a race.

If you stopped just spamming your "1" button, you would find you get much better at the game. Here is an example of exactly what I was talking about in my last post.

Sorry - but this game was not meant for you!
____________________________
FFXIV: Crafty Hallie, Ultros





#43 Sep 30 2010 at 1:27 AM Rating: Excellent
Scholar
****
9,997 posts
Most of the skill in FFXI was social skill. People who couldn't cooperate well with others, get along well with others, take and give directions well, etc., did poorly. The actual learning curve of the gameplay was respectably challenging initially, but quickly levels off such that any reasonably intelligent person would master it as best you could expect them to well before they'd get a new skill/ability to incorporate, and well before they completely tricked out their character.

XIV will definitely require more attentiveness, manual dexterity, twitch, etc., but that total absence of social skill requisites in a game where soloing is an extremely viable option may leave the game ringing pretty hollow to people who loved those elements of XI.

Personally I just intend to play the game for a bit until I'm bored with it. I don't even expect to make it to cap. I'm done with settings achievement goals in any game. I have better things to do with my time than immerse myself in the shallow gameplay of current MMOs. Like have fun.
____________________________
Hyrist wrote:
Ok, now we're going to get slash fiction of Wint x Kachi somehere... rule 34 and all...

Never confuse your inference as the listener for an implication of the speaker.

Good games are subjective like good food is subjective. You're not going to seriously tell me that there's not a psychological basis for why pizza is great and lutefisk is revolting. The thing about subjectivity is that, as subjects go, humans actually have a great deal in common.
#44 Sep 30 2010 at 6:22 AM Rating: Excellent
Scholar
*
123 posts
Kachi wrote:
Most of the skill in FFXI was social skill. People who couldn't cooperate well with others, get along well with others, take and give directions well, etc., did poorly. The actual learning curve of the gameplay was respectably challenging initially, but quickly levels off such that any reasonably intelligent person would master it as best you could expect them to well before they'd get a new skill/ability to incorporate, and well before they completely tricked out their character.

XIV will definitely require more attentiveness, manual dexterity, twitch, etc., but that total absence of social skill requisites in a game where soloing is an extremely viable option may leave the game ringing pretty hollow to people who loved those elements of XI.

Personally I just intend to play the game for a bit until I'm bored with it. I don't even expect to make it to cap. I'm done with settings achievement goals in any game. I have better things to do with my time than immerse myself in the shallow gameplay of current MMOs. Like have fun.


It's not that I want to be anti-social in a game, but let's face it. The only reason FFXI mandated socialization is that it took 4-6 hours to get anything done in that game. I don't have that kind of time anymore. When I was in college it was managable but I have a 40/wk job and I engineer for a band 3 nights out of the week. Let's combine that with kids, an avid love for outdoor cycling, and having to continue my education for work and you have the recipe for 1 hour a day of game play if I'm lucky.

In any case, FFXIV is NOT casual friendly -- there are elements that are for sure, but there are basic functionality issues that are driving me away from the game. I'll stick to EQ2 where I can at least get some stuff done in the hour I have to play.
____________________________
i5-750 @3.4ghz/4gb DDR-1600/HD5770

Hundah - EQ2:80sk(Befallen) *current
Hunda - FFXI:75pld(fairy->hades) *retired
Measure - EQ2:90trb,90def(Lucan D'Lere) *sold
#45 Sep 30 2010 at 6:32 AM Rating: Excellent
**
305 posts
Quote:
I can't wait till MMORPGs incorporate fighting games (Tekken, Street Fighter etc,) or first person shooter (Counter-Strike, TF2) type of gameplay into them CORRECTLY, that will be a true test of skill, not this whole, "Whoever wastes more of their life playing this game has the most l33t skillz0rs!"


Age of Conan had a melee system that a lot of people compared to a fighting game.

Basically, melee abilities were called combo abilities and required you to hit your directional attacks in a certain sequence to activate. there were i believe 5 directional attacks. also dynamic shielding meant that ideally a player could react to a combo and beef up defense for the final directional hit.

in theory, very nice and skill dependent. in practice, idk- haven't played that game for a long time.
____________________________


#46 Sep 30 2010 at 9:53 AM Rating: Decent
Scholar
26 posts
I totally Love this game more and more everyday i play. the battle system is nice (even tho its not really revolutionnary) and the tradeskill system is cool too. The only real thumb down id give to FF14 is the UI ... It sure is the worse user interface ive seen of all the online games ive playedand by far. The simple fact that you cant allocate the keys you want to actions you repeat over and over is kinda frustrating (you can for a very limited number of action like movement but its very restricted). The UI isnt functionnal and not very good looking either. But like i said the rest of the game is cool and for that reason im gonna invest some more time to see if i can get past that.
____________________________


#47RamseySylph, Posted: Sep 30 2010 at 10:08 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) You have to look at the current systems as the foundation for what will take skill later. The game is already far more difficult than WoW at equivalent levels.
#48 Sep 30 2010 at 10:17 AM Rating: Excellent
***
1,636 posts
I hate the skill argument, because skill isnt really the right way to compare these games. Skill is being good at the system, and wow and FF put different emphasis on combat and gameplay. Both FF MMOs have been more about decision making Combat is alot slower, and there's more to think about with combat, such as elemental weakness or being able to cut off limbs like they've said will work. FF is full of hidden effects and other factors, that it rewards alot more study and research, and knowing what to do in game. WOW on the other hand, is more of a gear and reflex check. Combat is fast, with buttons spamming. WOTLK was all a test of how fast you could get out of the fire. Am I more skilled for strafing behind dodo's breath attack or because I dont waste any global cooldowns in wow, they are't the same thing. The games are different, and thats ok.

I don't see why anybody feels the need to crap on the other's game. WoW gets alot of heat from old school players, because they cut out alot of the pre-level cap grind, but the grind is still there in the endgame.
____________________________


#49 Sep 30 2010 at 10:24 AM Rating: Good
***
3,448 posts
Interesting...

Quote:
The game is already far more difficult than WoW at equivalent levels.

That isn't necessarily a good thing. Keep in mind this game is supposed to appeal to casual gamers, having a high level of difficulty at very low levels of play is not conducive to this goal.

Quote:
The game at high levels (endgame) will be significantly more difficult than WoW in that you will never find yourself in a position where you can have one tank holding threat on 50 mobs, with no chance of ever losing it

A: How can you possibly know this
B: You never have a situation like that in WoW either, if you're really dealing with that many mobs at once, there's more than one tank holding them (otherwise the one tank would just get steamrolled)

Quote:
in Azeroth, it is 100% controlled.

The auction house and enchanters would like a word with you

Quote:
Most of the money in Azeroth is coming into the system and leaving via NPCs

That's the only way money EVER enters or leaves an economy in an online game. There's no mint producing new money and destroying old money, the game has to handle that.

Quote:
where end game loot is often parts and materials used to make things

Another thing you can't possibly know

You seem to be making some assumptions based on FFXI, which would have been reasonable if it hadn't already been clearly demonstrated that the dev team learned absolutely nothing from their other game. The game becomes what it becomes, but I think at this stage that prophecy is inadvisable.
____________________________
svlyons wrote:
If random outcomes aren't acceptable to you, then don't play with random people.
#50nick2412, Posted: Sep 30 2010 at 10:25 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Woot take that.. I am now Sub-default.. My life is complete :)
#51RamseySylph, Posted: Sep 30 2010 at 10:38 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) We can check back again in a year, I will be proven correct based on the current trends of the game, where 99% of gear comes from crafting. I didn't say nothing in my post was a prediction.
« Previous 1 2
This forum is read only
This Forum is Read Only!
Recent Visitors: 20 All times are in CST
Anonymous Guests (20)