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FFXIV Takes Skill - WoW is EasymodeFollow

#52 Sep 30 2010 at 10:42 AM Rating: Good
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Archmage Callinon wrote:
Quote:
The game at high levels (endgame) will be significantly more difficult than WoW in that you will never find yourself in a position where you can have one tank holding threat on 50 mobs, with no chance of ever losing it

A: How can you possibly know this
B: You never have a situation like that in WoW either, if you're really dealing with that many mobs at once, there's more than one tank holding them (otherwise the one tank would just get steamrolled)


More importantly, if there are large numbers of mobs, I assure you that no tank has a death grip on hate on more than a few.
#53 Sep 30 2010 at 10:48 AM Rating: Excellent
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RamseySylph wrote:

Did I even say it was or was not a good thing? It's a good thing for me, because this is my preference. I did not say it was a good thing for everyone.

True you didn't actually specify whether you thought this was good or not, it was heavily implied but we can leave it neutral for now.

RamseySylph wrote:

A: It's an extrapolation based on current trends in the game, the direction they want to go, etc. We can come back to this in a year if you'd like - I'll be proven correct.
B: I tanked in WoW, including Hardmode 10 mans, yes - you'd need 2 tanks, one to hold a boss, one to hold adds, or the typical "you must switch due to stack" mechanic, either way THREAT is only an issue if your tanks are horribly under-geared compared with your DPS. If the tank loses threat it is the tank's fault 100% of the time.

A: That was kind of my point, it's too early to know this yet
B: Yeah Blizzard didn't like that either, they're fixing it in cataclysm so that it can be someone else's fault if they get hate again


RamseySylph wrote:

Sorry, 99% of the money. The only thing you spend money on is useless mounts and flasks. Most of the money leaves the economy via repairs and enters via dailies. Please do not dispute this, it's a fact.

My point was that that's the only way money EVER leaves an online economy or enters one. Money moving from one player to another doesn't leave the economy, it just changes owners. The system in FFXIV is no different in this regard.
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#54RamseySylph, Posted: Sep 30 2010 at 11:24 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Are you talking about in WoW? Really? Firstly, if there's more than a few mobs, everyone is AoEing, in which case the tanks AoE threat is enough to keep them all busy. If there's more than a few and people are single targeting, the tank is focusing on that target. If there are more than a few and people are single targeting more than one target, most tanks in WoW have 2 taunts on less than 10 second cooldowns, if it's so bad that it becomes a problem, the DPS are DPSing the incorrect target, and it has nothing to do with anyone needing to curb their threat, it has to do with them being dumb as a rock.
#55 Sep 30 2010 at 3:40 PM Rating: Good
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2,535 posts
RamseySylph wrote:

BastokFL wrote:
Archmage Callinon wrote:
Quote:
The game at high levels (endgame) will be significantly more difficult than WoW in that you will never find yourself in a position where you can have one tank holding threat on 50 mobs, with no chance of ever losing it

A: How can you possibly know this
B: You never have a situation like that in WoW either, if you're really dealing with that many mobs at once, there's more than one tank holding them (otherwise the one tank would just get steamrolled)


More importantly, if there are large numbers of mobs, I assure you that no tank has a death grip on hate on more than a few.


Are you talking about in WoW? Really? Firstly, if there's more than a few mobs, everyone is AoEing, in which case the tanks AoE threat is enough to keep them all busy.


I can assure you, the tank's AoE threat is NOT enough to keep them all busy.

In fact, I can almost guarantee that, despite my being DPS, if there's a pack of mobs that get's AoEed down, I will wind up de facto tanking at least a few of them.

Quote:
most tanks in WoW have 2 taunts on less than 10 second cooldowns


Incorrect. Only paladins. The other tank classes' secondary taunts all have cooldowns ranging from 25 seconds to 3 minutes.
#56RamseySylph, Posted: Sep 30 2010 at 4:38 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) They have enough equivalent hate grabbing mechanics. In response to your first comment, your tanks are bad.
#57 Sep 30 2010 at 5:00 PM Rating: Default
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Let's compare XI to WoW from a difficulty perspective and then I'll comment on XIV.

I played WHM and BLM in XI, and Mage and Healer in WoW so they are capable of direct comparison based on the roles in groups.

In XI - as a WHM, I had to carefully watch my party health bars, factor in cast times, think about threat (hate, enmity, whatever) whilst at all times keeping my party alive. If i failed in this, players lost a pile of exp. Big penalty, big pain. As a result, i focussed on my job and on managing the various elements of my role. Threat management was the most difficult challenge and it took time to perfect my role. As a BLM, similar story but I also had to think about chaining which would sometimes require me to start a cast, before my party had even finished their routine. THis required focus, attention and effort.

In WoW, as a Priest - i just spammed the cure button on the tank. As a mage, i just spammed firebolt on the tanks target. Sometimes I would have to CC but generally it was so easy this wasnt necessary.

Now XIV looks like it is shaping up to be a little more like XI than WoW. I am only a lvl 17 conjurer but most of my levels have been earned in groups. I have pulled threat by over healing, so I do need to pay attention. I also am playing a mixed dd/healer role which introduces another dynamic into the mix as I have more to think about with threat management.

And this happens just for normal party grinding. Party grinding in XI and XIV is actually more difficult requiring greater teamwork than all but the toughest endgame in WoW. Imagine what endgame in XIV will be like.....

Im sorry - I liked WoW and XI, and I am enjoying XIV so far. THey are different games with a different target audience. WoW will suit everyone, XIV a niche audience who really want the challenge, but please dont say that WoW is just as difficult - it simply isnt true and makes you look a little silly.
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#58 Sep 30 2010 at 9:30 PM Rating: Good
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Silverwyrm wrote:
fights consist of you hitting your predefined rotation in its predefined order, while waiting for the bosses predefined actions/summons/abilities to take place, most of which you know when he/she/it will do to the second.


Just like end game XI and just like end game XIV will be too. Comparing end game WoW to brand new XIV is mind boggling.
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#59 Sep 30 2010 at 9:36 PM Rating: Default
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Its simple.

Dont pay & play if you dont like it. Only silly people pay and still pay more for game they dont like to play.
#60 Sep 30 2010 at 10:06 PM Rating: Good
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220 posts
Quote:
In WoW, as a Priest - i just spammed the cure button on the tank. As a mage, i just spammed firebolt on the tanks target. Sometimes I would have to CC but generally it was so easy this wasnt necessary.


You've clearly never experienced any of the difficult raids in BC or before. If you did and were able to spend all of your time in one spot spamming one key on one target, you either exploited the game or had one amazing set of players carrying your badness through the content.
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#61HIGHTONE, Posted: Sep 30 2010 at 10:07 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) this moron said Use BOLD on red lol... thanks for the smile, now go back to Wow
#62 Sep 30 2010 at 10:50 PM Rating: Default
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johngoforth wrote:
Quote:
In WoW, as a Priest - i just spammed the cure button on the tank. As a mage, i just spammed firebolt on the tanks target. Sometimes I would have to CC but generally it was so easy this wasnt necessary.


You've clearly never experienced any of the difficult raids in BC or before. If you did and were able to spend all of your time in one spot spamming one key on one target, you either exploited the game or had one amazing set of players carrying your badness through the content.


I respectfully disagree with this. Pre BC, raid content was considerably more difficult. As soon as the first new expansion was released the game was so easy as to be a joke. I liked WoW but quit when they decided to make it so that time and not ability was the key performance measure.
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#63 Sep 30 2010 at 11:06 PM Rating: Excellent
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220 posts
Quote:
johngoforth wrote:
Quote:
In WoW, as a Priest - i just spammed the cure button on the tank. As a mage, i just spammed firebolt on the tanks target. Sometimes I would have to CC but generally it was so easy this wasnt necessary.


You've clearly never experienced any of the difficult raids in BC or before. If you did and were able to spend all of your time in one spot spamming one key on one target, you either exploited the game or had one amazing set of players carrying your badness through the content.


I respectfully disagree with this. Pre BC, raid content was considerably more difficult. As soon as the first new expansion was released the game was so easy as to be a joke. I liked WoW but quit when they decided to make it so that time and not ability was the key performance measure.


Because every randomly thrown together guild was able to clear all of the raiding content, right? I never kept up with statistics, but I often cruised the site that showed how each server was faring on progression. I'm pretty sure that most raiding guilds would disagree with you on the game being easy enough to be a joke. Most of the final raids were cleared by a pretty small percentage of the population.
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#64HallieXIV, Posted: Sep 30 2010 at 11:11 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Every "thrown together guild" that had enough time on its hands, yes. My best friends son, who is 12, is in a very far advanced Raiding guild. He loves the game.
#65 Sep 30 2010 at 11:16 PM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
Every "thrown together guild" that had enough time on its hands, yes.


I like how you continue to just throw out comments as proof while I try to at least give some reasoning behind what I say. Do you honestly think that only 5% of guilds put together raids 4-5 nights a week and that those 5% were the only ones who made it through content?
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#66HallieXIV, Posted: Sep 30 2010 at 11:22 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Yes - that is exactly what I think. I dont need to "prove" an opinion. It is just my opinion. I found WoW, post vanilla WoW to be unchallenging and boring. That is a personal position that can be neither right, nor wrong. Being unchallenging is a relative concept. To my friends 12 year old son, it is challenging, to me - it is not.
#67 Sep 30 2010 at 11:35 PM Rating: Excellent
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HIGHTONE wrote:
this moron said Use BOLD on red lol... thanks for the smile, now go back to Wow


You might want to read the Beta Guide released to Beta players by Square Enix - in which THEY wrote "Standard on White, Rapid on Yellow, Bold on Red".

Thanks for the fail flame attempt though.
#68 Sep 30 2010 at 11:36 PM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
Yes - that is exactly what I think. I dont need to "prove" an opinion. It is just my opinion. I found WoW, post vanilla WoW to be unchallenging and boring. That is a personal position that can be neither right, nor wrong. Being unchallenging is a relative concept. To my friends 12 year old son, it is challenging, to me - it is not.


That's fine. It is very possible that you didn't find it challenging. But I can guarantee that you never 'just spammed the cure button on the tank' or 'just spammed firebolt on the tanks target'. Or if you did, you never made it past the first raid. I can also guarantee that time never exactly equated to success in endgame. Sure it helps, but there's not a 100% correlation between the two. These two are misconceptions or utter lies you and others perpetrate to make the game look bad. That was my point.
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#69 Sep 30 2010 at 11:37 PM Rating: Excellent
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HallieXIV wrote:
johngoforth wrote:
Quote:
In WoW, as a Priest - i just spammed the cure button on the tank. As a mage, i just spammed firebolt on the tanks target. Sometimes I would have to CC but generally it was so easy this wasnt necessary.


You've clearly never experienced any of the difficult raids in BC or before. If you did and were able to spend all of your time in one spot spamming one key on one target, you either exploited the game or had one amazing set of players carrying your badness through the content.


I respectfully disagree with this. Pre BC, raid content was considerably more difficult. As soon as the first new expansion was released the game was so easy as to be a joke. I liked WoW but quit when they decided to make it so that time and not ability was the key performance measure.


Right - and this is why Blizzard released data saying that only 3% of the worldwide playerbase had actually even entered Black Temple and attempted end game content. Thus, the changes made in Lich King expansion in order to open up the end game content to more players and make it less elitist. Sure though, BC was a joke to those 3% I'm sure..which you were apparently part of.
#70HallieXIV, Posted: Sep 30 2010 at 11:43 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) You need to be careful with your use of statistics. When Blizzard say 3%, that is 3 out of every 100 characters (toons in WoWspeak). I cant remember how many alts I had but I only had 2 characters at max level.
#71 Sep 30 2010 at 11:54 PM Rating: Decent
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HallieXIV wrote:
mocorcim wrote:
There are about a million posts complaining about FFXIVs current status. Most of the response from people who like the game tends to be based on:

- FFXIV taking some sort of skill, and the people complaining being too used to easy mode games that a 2-year old mashing on one button could exel at.

- FFXIV takes patience, and that patience will be rewarded.

I _really_ want to like the game, and have been looking forward to it... for over a year. However, I'm not understanding where the Skill or Patience comes in. I'd prefer to make an educated decision on sticking with the game or not, and not just a knee-jerk reaction based on my level 1-20 impressions. I was hoping some people could provide some insight as to the Skill and Patience in the game.

Currently I don't consider the clunky interface, menu system, combat system, crafting system, leve system ... or anything really as requiring any sort of skill. Patience, yes... but only from an additional investment of time to achieve something - not from any enhanced challenge or difficulty level.

If you wish to flame on, fine... but I'm actually looking for constructive feedback to somewhat convince me to stick it out - that it will pay off. I think this is what most people are looking for... the "why" for playing the game.

Edited, Sep 29th 2010 5:36am by mocorcim


You need to be careful with your use of statistics. When Blizzard say 3%, that is 3 out of every 100 characters (toons in WoWspeak). I cant remember how many alts I had but I only had 2 characters at max level.

Lets say everyone had 5 characters but only really played and raided with 1 of them. Then only 20% of the player base would ever get anywhere near endgame. Of the 20%, probably 75% ish were not the sort of players that raid 5-7 nights per week for 3 or 4 hours. The remaining players were the ones who did. Of those, all of them (being approximately 3% -5% of the player base WoW refers to) saw all the content.

Not so surprising now is it. Honestly, Im not trying to say WoW is not a good game - just that in my opinion, if you had the time, you could see the content, I dont think skill really comes into it.

Edited, Oct 1st 2010 1:44am by HallieXIV


Your logic implies the entire playerbase has 5 max level characters... hahaha...you keep twisting the numbers till it fits your arguement all you want.
#72HallieXIV, Posted: Oct 01 2010 at 12:11 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) You really are monumentally stupid. My entire logic is based around the fact that people will NOT have 5 max level characters. In fact, in the EXAMPLE that I provided, I allowed for 5 characters on an account but only 1 at the max. It would work equally well with 10 characters on an account and 2 at the max.
#73HallieXIV, Posted: Oct 01 2010 at 12:21 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) In fact, I am so frustrated that i feel the need to explain this maths to you.
#74 Oct 01 2010 at 12:33 AM Rating: Excellent
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220 posts
You didn't have to explain it. His point was that you took the results and made up the data to fit how you see it. I honestly don't know if you're wrong or right and I don't care. I know from my experience of raiding throughout the entire expansion, from keeping up with the overall success of raiding guilds, seeing how many people put in work every night, and how few were able to make it to the end that time simply did not in any way guarantee success. It helped, sure. But the idea that those 3% were simply the 3% who put in the most time is completely false.
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#75 Oct 01 2010 at 12:41 AM Rating: Decent
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FFXIV requires patience more than anything else. Also understanding. Once we learn how everything works, it'll be a walk in the park.
#76 Oct 01 2010 at 1:04 AM Rating: Default
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"You didn't have to explain it. His point was that you took the results and made up the data to fit how you see it"

"Your logic implies the entire playerbase has 5 max level characters... hahaha"

Au Contraire!
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#77 Oct 01 2010 at 1:40 AM Rating: Good
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So the guy is bad at math or just didn't read right. You didn't actually specify the levels, only that one is played. You're still making up your own data to support your argument without actually knowing what data they used.
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#78 Oct 01 2010 at 3:51 AM Rating: Good
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4,149 posts
HallieXIV wrote:
In XI - as a WHM, I had to carefully watch my party health bars, factor in cast times, think about threat (hate, enmity, whatever) whilst at all times keeping my party alive. If i failed in this, players lost a pile of exp. Big penalty, big pain. As a result, i focussed on my job and on managing the various elements of my role. Threat management was the most difficult challenge and it took time to perfect my role. As a BLM, similar story but I also had to think about chaining which would sometimes require me to start a cast, before my party had even finished their routine. THis required focus, attention and effort.

In WoW, as a Priest - i just spammed the cure button on the tank. As a mage, i just spammed firebolt on the tanks target. Sometimes I would have to CC but generally it was so easy this wasnt necessary.

Im sorry - I liked WoW and XI, and I am enjoying XIV so far. THey are different games with a different target audience. WoW will suit everyone, XIV a niche audience who really want the challenge, but please dont say that WoW is just as difficult - it simply isnt true and makes you look a little silly.

Everytime I see a FF vs Warcraft argument it is the same 3 issues beaten to death:
How easy/hard it is to level
How easy/hard it is to do play your role
How easy/hard it is to get drops

The leveling argument has been blown away by abyssea. It is now much easier to level to cap in FFXI and it will probably stay that way. It was actually just as easy before abyssea doing summoner or black mage burn groups. It is now easier to level in FFXI.

All of what you described about your duties as a healer in FFXI apply to WoW except exp loss. If you were spamming your heals and nukes in WoW then either you were horribly undergeared, you had an amazing tank but most likely some combination of the two. I can't speak on priest, but as a mage I could easily rip aggro off of any good tank if I wasn't minding my threat. I don't see how you found your role in FFXI as a BLM any more challenging or engaging than a mage in WoW. I did basically the same five things all the time. Rest, sleep adds, ele debuff, nuke, stun and run. PvE mages in WoW is relatively the same. Drink, sheep, decurse, nuke, counterspell and blink. Again, same old same.

Drops in these two games are different for several reasons. In FFXI it is totally acceptable to wear gear you could equip as many as 50 levels ago(Peacock charm anyone?). In many situations this gear was actually better than what you would have available at your current level. The reason is that FFXI doesn't scale nearly as much as WoW does. In FFXI you start with about 50 hp and max out just under or above 2k depending on your job. In WoW you start maybe around 150 but increase upwards of 40k depending on class, maybe more.

The other reason is content. WoW adds raids and endgame content way more frequently than FFXI does. You progress through gear as you progress through content. Not only that, but the gear is actually useful as a set. The bonuses provided by gear in FFXI were so situational that I would have pieces of gear in my inventory that were incredibly useful despite the fact I might only cast a few times a day, once a week. The bonuses provided by sets of gear in WoW affected how you played your class immensely.







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Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
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