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Found an Update on MarketFollow

#1 Sep 29 2010 at 8:09 AM Rating: Excellent
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http://lodestone.finalfantasyxiv.com/pl/topics/detail?id=693682a80ae927d74b11a0381c7cd1af570568aa
Quote:
Markets
Q. I have read that there are changes planned to improve the market system, but is there any more specific information available regarding these changes and the direction the market system will take?
A. We have continued to receive copious amounts of feedback regarding changes that players would like to see made to the market system. As a result, we are planning a number of revisions and additions to the system, the first of which are scheduled to be implemented in the next one to two weeks.

Specifically, market wards will be organized according to specific item types, making it easier to consolidate similar items in the same area. Further, if an item sold within a ward corresponds to that wards’ item type, the tax incurred will be reduced. Items not of that ward’s category may still be sold, but the tax imposed will remain the same as it has up until now.

We will be closely monitoring the trends and developments of the market system following the implementation of these revisions and new features, and will continue to make further adjustments and alterations to improve player usability and convenience. For example, we are currently looking into options that will provide players with precise information as to which items are located in which market areas, or the ability to seek out specific items without the need for speaking to retainers, and more.

Also, we are now taking steps to increase the number of retainers that a character is able to simultaneously employ.


Anima
Q. What is the deal with the anima regeneration rate?
A. During the Open Beta, anima was recovered at the rate of one point every six hours (Earth time). Since service began last week for owners of the collector’s edition, however, that rate has been adjusted to one point every four hours.


Food
Q. What kind of effects does eating have on my character?
A. Eating food serves to temporarily increase certain stats, such as physical and magic attack power, or attributes, such as strength and dexterity. Also, there are foods and dishes suited more to the palates of certain races than others, resulting in more powerful effects.



Looks like it was just released on ffxiv page. So they plan to revise the market wards to be separated by items sold.

Edited, Sep 29th 2010 10:32am by Nylianna
#2 Sep 29 2010 at 8:10 AM Rating: Default
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What if my bazaar has a wide range of high demand items...
#3 Sep 29 2010 at 8:11 AM Rating: Good
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did you even read the link? They explain that.
#4 Sep 29 2010 at 8:13 AM Rating: Default
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SE is going to find many subscriptions lost if they dont implement a AH and bank. This whole retainer thing is silly, and will not prevent any gold selling.
Just like DRM. You are just hurting paying customers, gold sellers will always find a way. Because people will want to buy.
#5 Sep 29 2010 at 8:15 AM Rating: Decent
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I look at this as their last try with the current system. It seems like an improvement. If they combine the separate wards with a search function it would be good enough. They said in the link that they are trying to find a way to let a player access the wards and retainers without physically searching through them all. Seems pretty good to me. Except the one to two weeks part. How will the Wards look when you add the flood of SE people(like me).
#6 Sep 29 2010 at 8:16 AM Rating: Decent
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Well lets hope it works better either way :)

Edited, Sep 29th 2010 10:16am by Remidi
#7 Sep 29 2010 at 8:16 AM Rating: Good
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sylph19 wrote:
What if my bazaar has a wide range of high demand items...



Quote:

Specifically, market wards will be organized according to specific item types, making it easier to consolidate similar items in the same area. Further, if an item sold within a ward corresponds to that wards’ item type, the tax incurred will be reduced. Items not of that ward’s category may still be sold, but the tax imposed will remain the same as it has up until now.
#8 Sep 29 2010 at 8:20 AM Rating: Good
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Thanks for the find...

Still. Since the 'improvement' completely relies on users placing their retainer on the correct floor, I expect things to only marginally improve.

I think all the text simply means that they are changing the names of the Wards or adding descriptions that say 'armor on this floor', 'weapons here', etc. Not exactly an earth shattering addition.


It won't really improve until they add search.


Edited, Sep 29th 2010 10:21am by rikkuotaku
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#9 Sep 29 2010 at 8:23 AM Rating: Decent
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rikkuotaku wrote:
Thanks for the find...

Still. Since the 'improvement' completely relies on users placing their retainer on the correct floor, I expect things to only marginally improve.

I think all the text simply means that they are changing the names of the Wards or adding descriptions that say 'armor on this floor', 'weapons here', etc. Not exactly an earth shattering addition.





I think that is why SE has given the reduced tax on items sold in their correct ward. It will influence people to place the items in the correct ward. Also want to give characters more retainers, so you won't be limited what you can sell at a certain time.

The improvement will be marginal, but still good to see some work is being done. If this fails, I predict a AH.
#10 Sep 29 2010 at 8:27 AM Rating: Good
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Any improvement is an improvement but it's still not an AH system. Having all the retainers that sell, say, weapons in one location will be a little easier to locate them but a full on search system would make it much better.
#11 Sep 29 2010 at 8:28 AM Rating: Good
An AH really is not needed, as a bazzar system such as this can work. I mean, look at the original EQ, they had one, and it worked fine. All you need is to include a decent way to search the bazzars.
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#12 Sep 29 2010 at 8:30 AM Rating: Excellent
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Geffe the Meaningless wrote:
Any improvement is an improvement but it's still not an AH system. Having all the retainers that sell, say, weapons in one location will be a little easier to locate them but a full on search system would make it much better.


Quote:
For example, we are currently looking into options that will provide players with precise information as to which items are located in which market areas, or the ability to seek out specific items without the need for speaking to retainers, and more.


Hopefully SE implements this with care and thought. I wouldn't mind if the search was something like search the retainers within x distance of you. A search is a search.

#13 Sep 29 2010 at 8:35 AM Rating: Good
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ukikithemonkey wrote:
An AH really is not needed, as a bazzar system such as this can work. I mean, look at the original EQ, they had one, and it worked fine. All you need is to include a decent way to search the bazzars.


I agree, but only if there is a search function. With a search funcion the difference between this system and a traditional auction house is minimal. It sounds like that's where we're headed, so assuming it works like we would expect, I am fine with it.

I still think there should only be one market ward that is magicaly tied to all cities though.

Edited, Sep 29th 2010 10:35am by Vawn43
#14 Sep 29 2010 at 8:35 AM Rating: Decent
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Nylianna wrote:
did you even read the link? They explain that.

I didn't, the site wasn't loading at the time. =/
#15 Sep 29 2010 at 8:38 AM Rating: Excellent
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It's the search system that's missing, not the centralized AH. I doubt many would agree, but I'm finding the lack of AH to be making the game far more social in many respects. Actually trading materials with LS, where we would have likely sold our items seperately otherwise.

At first I was finding the shouts to buy/sell irritating, but it seems to be reasonable, considering. I would suggest a variation on /shout that is for trading. Perhaps when you /shout within the market area, it only extends to the extents of the market.

Or there could be a /market command for doing the same thing.

Shouts in the city do not extend to the outer world correct?

Maybe Global Trade Chat Channel, with a filter to match. I think Guild Wars had this, but it didn't work well, as most people left it off until the wanted something, at which time no one was offering. Innovate from there perhaps.
#16 Sep 29 2010 at 8:38 AM Rating: Good
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sylph19 wrote:
Nylianna wrote:
did you even read the link? They explain that.

I didn't, the site wasn't loading at the time. =/


I edited my post to just show the link in a quote. I realized that could be a problem. Sorry.
#17 Sep 29 2010 at 8:39 AM Rating: Default
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ukikithemonkey wrote:
An AH really is not needed, as a bazzar system such as this can work. I mean, look at the original EQ, they had one, and it worked fine. All you need is to include a decent way to search the bazzars.


The original EQ was released in 1999. It is now 2010. That's like saying the new Call of Duty doesn't need voice chat or vehicles or ranks or killstreaks because Quake 2 didn't have those things.
#18 Sep 29 2010 at 8:42 AM Rating: Good
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I have a question about retainers. I won't be playing until the PS3 release and I am curious. Is it possible to tell your retainer to buy an item from another player's retainer? I can't remember if that is an actual function or if I'm daydreaming that up happens from time to time
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#19 Sep 29 2010 at 8:51 AM Rating: Good
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Copypasta from IRC:

Mikhalia: It's a step in the right direction but still lame.
Mikhalia: How do you organize wards by item type if retainers can sell multiple different types of weapons or armor or goods?
Mikhalia: And it still doesn't solve the lag issue, or the fact that you can't browse. And the organization is just a friendly suggestion on where to put retainers; you can still put them anywhere you want.
Mikhalia: It's like they designed a car with square wheels made of concrete and they're telling us "We sanded the edges down a bit". Sure, it helps, but it's a band aid on a gangrenous limb.
Mikhalia: What if I'm not a crafter? What if I'm just doing leves and I have rat meat and mole pelts and mushrooms and ****? Where do I put my retainer to sell my crap?
Mikhalia: This system might make it a little easier to find items, but the main person that benefits in terms of buying and selling is crafters since they always need mats of a certain type and they will almost always sell mats of a certain type.
Mikhalia: Might as well call it Final Crafting XIV and take the combat classes out of it altogether.
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#20 Sep 29 2010 at 8:52 AM Rating: Decent
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KingGhidora wrote:
I have a question about retainers. I won't be playing until the PS3 release and I am curious. Is it possible to tell your retainer to buy an item from another player's retainer? I can't remember if that is an actual function or if I'm daydreaming that up happens from time to time


From my knowledge you can't, but I won't have the game for another week or so. IT would be a nice function, but considering some of the basics are still being addressed about retainers, I would guess a solid no.
#21 Sep 29 2010 at 8:54 AM Rating: Good
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Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
Copypasta from IRC:

Mikhalia: It's a step in the right direction but still lame.
Mikhalia: How do you organize wards by item type if retainers can sell multiple different types of weapons or armor or goods?
Mikhalia: And it still doesn't solve the lag issue, or the fact that you can't browse. And the organization is just a friendly suggestion on where to put retainers; you can still put them anywhere you want.



I agree, but I would have to say that the tax reduction for selling in the right ward will help persuade players to separate their items. Plus, if characters can have more retainers, the more organized the wards will get.
#22 Sep 29 2010 at 8:55 AM Rating: Good
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kahilm wrote:
ukikithemonkey wrote:
An AH really is not needed, as a bazzar system such as this can work. I mean, look at the original EQ, they had one, and it worked fine. All you need is to include a decent way to search the bazzars.


The original EQ was released in 1999. It is now 2010. That's like saying the new Call of Duty doesn't need voice chat or vehicles or ranks or killstreaks because Quake 2 didn't have those things.


what would be the advantages of a AH to the updated bazzar system besides not having to run to a spot to pick up your item?
#23 Sep 29 2010 at 9:02 AM Rating: Decent
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This is an interesting update, certainly moving in the right way with some sorting function to make shopping less random.

But then, even with a proper search function, the retainer system still seems to lose out to a centralized trading mechanism like the AH.

The AH consolidates items from the entire server, enhancing the availability of a particular item, while the market wards are constricted to cities.

Again, in the same sense, the entire server has a one stop access to your goods, via ONE station called the AH. This enhances the efficiency of trading.

Assuming that a search function is implemented in the future, and you are able to find retainer X selling item Y. You then move to the wards, find the retainer (or may not find the player due to him not appearing amongst the hundred other retainers) and then purchase the item.

The AH works exactly the same way, search for item, buy item... BUT, with much higher access rates, efficiency and ease.

So then, what is the value of the market wards?
#24 Sep 29 2010 at 9:04 AM Rating: Decent
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kahilm wrote:
ukikithemonkey wrote:
An AH really is not needed, as a bazzar system such as this can work. I mean, look at the original EQ, they had one, and it worked fine. All you need is to include a decent way to search the bazzars.


The original EQ was released in 1999. It is now 2010. That's like saying the new Call of Duty doesn't need voice chat or vehicles or ranks or killstreaks because Quake 2 didn't have those things.


Okay..enough with the "It's x year"..as I said in another topic..it's 2010 the world should be highly advanced and shouldn't have any economic issues because of the advancements. Remember Street Fighter 2010 as a kid? It's 2010 now. It doesn't matter if its 1992 or 2220.
#25 Sep 29 2010 at 9:06 AM Rating: Decent
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bwuk wrote:
This is an interesting update, certainly moving in the right way with some sorting function to make shopping less random.

But then, even with a proper search function, the retainer system still seems to lose out to a centralized trading mechanism like the AH.

The AH consolidates items from the entire server, enhancing the availability of a particular item, while the market wards are constricted to cities.

Again, in the same sense, the entire server has a one stop access to your goods, via ONE station called the AH. This enhances the efficiency of trading.

Assuming that a search function is implemented in the future, and you are able to find retainer X selling item Y. You then move to the wards, find the retainer (or may not find the player due to him not appearing amongst the hundred other retainers) and then purchase the item.

The AH works exactly the same way, search for item, buy item... BUT, with much higher access rates, efficiency and ease.

So then, what is the value of the market wards?


I see your point, but I also like the bazaar/retainer system. Maybe in the future you can set your retainer somewhere besides in the wards, so maybe by not having an AH they are leaving that as a possibility; that retainer will be able to be placed in camps. Really, I'm just fishing for a opposing view for no AH. lol
#26 Sep 29 2010 at 9:07 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
So then, what is the value of the market wards?


While I think this could be implemented to an AH, you can also set the retainer to buy items for you, and offer your equipment to be repaired by others.

So it's more flexible system in some aspects and I hope they'll make it as efficient as AH's were in time too, even if it means there's a lot of wasted dev time that went into this feature. Sad, but it doesn't always work as you had envisioned.
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#27 Sep 29 2010 at 9:08 AM Rating: Excellent
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Yanshi wrote:
kahilm wrote:
ukikithemonkey wrote:
An AH really is not needed, as a bazzar system such as this can work. I mean, look at the original EQ, they had one, and it worked fine. All you need is to include a decent way to search the bazzars.


The original EQ was released in 1999. It is now 2010. That's like saying the new Call of Duty doesn't need voice chat or vehicles or ranks or killstreaks because Quake 2 didn't have those things.


what would be the advantages of a AH to the updated bazzar system besides not having to run to a spot to pick up your item?


Really? First of all you wouldn't have to browse through 50+ different reatiners just to find (or not find) what you're looking for. Just type in the name of the thing you want, see if it's there, bam done in 30 seconds. Current system can take upwards of 30 minutes and that's IF you're only looking in one ward. Better put aside an afternoon and evening if you want to look through all the wards.

Like a poster above said with the IRC cut/paste, what if you have multiple different types of items to sell? You only have one retainer, so a lot of your items are going to be in the "wrong" ward.

An AH also would work to stabilize the economy. Prices will level out as the invisible hand of the market pushes prices up and down depending on supply and demand. With the current bazaar/retainer system, it is nearly impossible to tell what the "normal" price is for anything because you would have to browse every single bazaar and retainer and make a spreadsheet in excel to get an idea of fair pricing. Sound like fun to you? This is supposed to be fun, right?

And don't give me the "RMT will ruin the economy if they have an AH!!!11" argument. Breaking the game like this to try to eliminate RMT is complete and utter nonsense. RMT will find a way to make and sell their gil. All this does is punish the people who are playing by the rules.
#28 Sep 29 2010 at 9:09 AM Rating: Good
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It's like they're trying to implement an auction house without the auction house. Just doesn't make any sense, but at least they're trying to make it better.
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#29 Sep 29 2010 at 9:10 AM Rating: Decent
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Jennestia wrote:
kahilm wrote:
ukikithemonkey wrote:
An AH really is not needed, as a bazzar system such as this can work. I mean, look at the original EQ, they had one, and it worked fine. All you need is to include a decent way to search the bazzars.


The original EQ was released in 1999. It is now 2010. That's like saying the new Call of Duty doesn't need voice chat or vehicles or ranks or killstreaks because Quake 2 didn't have those things.


Okay..enough with the "It's x year"..as I said in another topic..it's 2010 the world should be highly advanced and shouldn't have any economic issues because of the advancements. Remember Street Fighter 2010 as a kid? It's 2010 now. It doesn't matter if its 1992 or 2220.


So you're saying we should settle for substandard games because we're in a recession? Is that really your argument? Give me a break.
#30 Sep 29 2010 at 9:13 AM Rating: Decent
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kahilm wrote:
Jennestia wrote:
kahilm wrote:
ukikithemonkey wrote:
An AH really is not needed, as a bazzar system such as this can work. I mean, look at the original EQ, they had one, and it worked fine. All you need is to include a decent way to search the bazzars.


The original EQ was released in 1999. It is now 2010. That's like saying the new Call of Duty doesn't need voice chat or vehicles or ranks or killstreaks because Quake 2 didn't have those things.


Okay..enough with the "It's x year"..as I said in another topic..it's 2010 the world should be highly advanced and shouldn't have any economic issues because of the advancements. Remember Street Fighter 2010 as a kid? It's 2010 now. It doesn't matter if its 1992 or 2220.


So you're saying we should settle for substandard games because we're in a recession? Is that really your argument? Give me a break.


Substandard games? You mean how every MMORPG no matter if it was from the 90s or 2000s released with problems? We are talking about a newly released MMORPG are we not? It really doesn't matter what year it is because every MMORPG releases with problems or systems people may or may not agree with.

Also what argument? It really doesn't matter the year. If a system worked in the 90s it sure as **** can work in 2010, all having more technology does for you is allowing you to expand on it. Also what we're forgetting is most of the MMORPGS with an Auction House system did not get it till shortly after their release.


Oh and you know all of these shooters, Call of Duty specifically comes from the general idea started in the 90s or even earlier? It's 2010, they shouldn't be using concepts started in the 90s nor should we be using engines designed back then, which, btw--we're still using today only updated.

Edited, Sep 29th 2010 11:18am by Jennestia
#31 Sep 29 2010 at 9:14 AM Rating: Decent
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bwuk wrote:
This is an interesting update, certainly moving in the right way with some sorting function to make shopping less random.

But then, even with a proper search function, the retainer system still seems to lose out to a centralized trading mechanism like the AH.

The AH consolidates items from the entire server, enhancing the availability of a particular item, while the market wards are constricted to cities.

Again, in the same sense, the entire server has a one stop access to your goods, via ONE station called the AH. This enhances the efficiency of trading.

Assuming that a search function is implemented in the future, and you are able to find retainer X selling item Y. You then move to the wards, find the retainer (or may not find the player due to him not appearing amongst the hundred other retainers) and then purchase the item.

The AH works exactly the same way, search for item, buy item... BUT, with much higher access rates, efficiency and ease.

So then, what is the value of the market wards?


Meh either is fine for me. Just have some mark on the retainer that has your item.

I would rather have them work on other stuff than a AH when a similar system is already in place.
#32 Sep 29 2010 at 9:22 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Substandard games? You mean how every MMORPG no matter if it was from the 90s or 2000s released with problems? We are talking about a newly released MMORPG are we not? It really doesn't matter what year it is because every MMORPG releases with problems or systems people may or may not agree with.

Also what argument? It really doesn't matter the year. If a system worked in the 90s it sure as **** can work in 2010, all having more technology does for you is allowing you to expand on it. Also what we're forgetting is most of the MMORPGS with an Auction House system did not get it till shortly after their release.


Oh and you know all of these shooters, Call of Duty specifically comes from the general idea started in the 90s or even earlier? It's 2010, they shouldn't be using concepts started in the 90s nor should we be using engines designed back then, which, btw--we're still using today only updated.


The argument isnt' whether or not the retainer system can work or not, it probably can with enough tweaks. The argument is that a better concept has come out since EQ, aka the AH.
#33 Sep 29 2010 at 9:23 AM Rating: Good
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My issue with the idea of the search function is: If you know what you want then great but what if you don't know what you want? I played 11 in such a manner. I didn't know every item known to the game. I looked at a list based on lvl and stats and compared. I didn't always know the name of the armor or earring I wanted.

(Speaking on a side note on Search in this game: That the **** is up with the Search ppl in the party menu? I gotta know what job you're currently doing to find you and I have to have it unlocked myself to even search it wth? lol If retainer Search is anything like Player Searching, I'd rather wear lvl 1 armor til a leve gives me better hahah.)
#34 Sep 29 2010 at 9:26 AM Rating: Good
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I am totally confident that the game will get better, it's only a question of whether that takes days, weeks, months, or years. And that ball is entirely in SE's court.

I can't fathom for a minute that people with a level head would find this system -better- than an auction house for the bulk of players. A couple people might PERSONALLY think that THEY like it better, but the bulk of players would benefit more from an AH than the retainer system, searchable or not. -At best-, the current system can only ever hope to become "almost as good" as what an AH could be.

The problem is, whoever came up with this idea at SE refuses to let it die. They've given birth to a one-armed, one-legged, cleft pallete, blind, deaf, leper of a child and I'm pretty confident that the next couple of updates will be spent trying to give this kid prosthetic limbs, a new immune system, cosmetic surgery, and wasting their (and our) time and money trying to make a ****** system only slightly less ****** when what they really need to do is to just put the **** thing out of its misery and start over. (Sidenote: I am not advocating doing this with an -actual- child.)

I get what they had in mind. Thinking in terms of a true marketplace, you have dozens of vendors peddling wares, haggling, trading. Marketplaces in countries all over the world from Mexico to Morocco to India to Japan are gathering places for trading, bartering, and most importantly: fellowship and socializing. In theory, this is a great idea that could make a game great.

The problem is, this idea only works in the real world because you're buying from and selling to ACTUAL people. Once you replace actual people with NPC retainers, you take away everything that makes real marketplaces good. There's no bartering, there's no socializing or dealing, it's not really any different from if you were purchasing from a generic NPC, except the NPCs prices and wares are random, and there are about a thousand or so in one tiny room.

In theory, the only way to make this better would be to take out retailers, only let players have bazaars, and force players to stand around in the market wards to buy and sell, thus promoting the social and barter aspects. Do you really want to waste your time standing in a room for hours, trying to hawk your goods though?

People argue that an AH would feel too automated and remove the social aspect, but the social aspect has been removed by the existence of retainers at all. As I said, unless you're literally selling player to player, there is no benefit to a retainer with a bazaar compared to an AH. You're just conceptualizing the player without the benefit of the human contact. If there's not going to be any human contact ANYWAY, how does a robot selling goods to you differ from an NPC vendor? What's the point?
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#35 Sep 29 2010 at 9:27 AM Rating: Decent
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Imnotded wrote:
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Substandard games? You mean how every MMORPG no matter if it was from the 90s or 2000s released with problems? We are talking about a newly released MMORPG are we not? It really doesn't matter what year it is because every MMORPG releases with problems or systems people may or may not agree with.

Also what argument? It really doesn't matter the year. If a system worked in the 90s it sure as **** can work in 2010, all having more technology does for you is allowing you to expand on it. Also what we're forgetting is most of the MMORPGS with an Auction House system did not get it till shortly after their release.


Oh and you know all of these shooters, Call of Duty specifically comes from the general idea started in the 90s or even earlier? It's 2010, they shouldn't be using concepts started in the 90s nor should we be using engines designed back then, which, btw--we're still using today only updated.


The argument isnt' whether or not the retainer system can work or not, it probably can with enough tweaks. The argument is that a better concept has come out since EQ, aka the AH.


Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't this generally what an Auction House system is?

- 1 Spot To look up items (Aka a Search)
- 1 spot to buy items as in specific location or sometimes locations (hi FFXI) where you can buy the items?
- Universal pricing - basically as people flood the AH with items prices will generally plummet and stabilize.

So what's the major difference between Retainer selling and buying and an Auction house? Especially if they throw in the Search and Organization to it? You're still going to x location to buy your items. The only thing I can think of is "standard prices" for some items.


#36 Sep 29 2010 at 9:27 AM Rating: Decent
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Jennestia wrote:
kahilm wrote:
Jennestia wrote:
kahilm wrote:
ukikithemonkey wrote:
An AH really is not needed, as a bazzar system such as this can work. I mean, look at the original EQ, they had one, and it worked fine. All you need is to include a decent way to search the bazzars.


The original EQ was released in 1999. It is now 2010. That's like saying the new Call of Duty doesn't need voice chat or vehicles or ranks or killstreaks because Quake 2 didn't have those things.


Okay..enough with the "It's x year"..as I said in another topic..it's 2010 the world should be highly advanced and shouldn't have any economic issues because of the advancements. Remember Street Fighter 2010 as a kid? It's 2010 now. It doesn't matter if its 1992 or 2220.


So you're saying we should settle for substandard games because we're in a recession? Is that really your argument? Give me a break.


Substandard games? You mean how every MMORPG no matter if it was from the 90s or 2000s released with problems? We are talking about a newly released MMORPG are we not? It really doesn't matter what year it is because every MMORPG releases with problems or systems people may or may not agree with.

Also what argument? It really doesn't matter the year. If a system worked in the 90s it sure as **** can work in 2010, all having more technology does for you is allowing you to expand on it. Also what we're forgetting is most of the MMORPGS with an Auction House system did not get it till shortly after their release.


Oh and you know all of these shooters, Call of Duty specifically comes from the general idea started in the 90s or even earlier? It's 2010, they shouldn't be using concepts started in the 90s nor should we be using engines designed back then, which, btw--we're still using today only updated.

Edited, Sep 29th 2010 11:18am by Jennestia


That's the whole point, these systems should be updated as progress marches along. The retainer/bazaar system is a huge step backwards in both efficiency and in the fun factor. Is it fun for you to spend a significantly portion of your alloted play time searching through endless bazaars and retainers? Wouldn't it be more fun to simply type in a search term, see if something is being sold, buy it and be done?

And excusing these companies by saying "well every other game launches unfinished or buggy" is a joke.
#37 Sep 29 2010 at 9:28 AM Rating: Default
9 posts
kahilm wrote:
Yanshi wrote:
kahilm wrote:
ukikithemonkey wrote:
An AH really is not needed, as a bazzar system such as this can work. I mean, look at the original EQ, they had one, and it worked fine. All you need is to include a decent way to search the bazzars.


The original EQ was released in 1999. It is now 2010. That's like saying the new Call of Duty doesn't need voice chat or vehicles or ranks or killstreaks because Quake 2 didn't have those things.


what would be the advantages of a AH to the updated bazzar system besides not having to run to a spot to pick up your item?


Really? First of all you wouldn't have to browse through 50+ different reatiners just to find (or not find) what you're looking for. Just type in the name of the thing you want, see if it's there, bam done in 30 seconds. Current system can take upwards of 30 minutes and that's IF you're only looking in one ward. Better put aside an afternoon and evening if you want to look through all the wards.

Like a poster above said with the IRC cut/paste, what if you have multiple different types of items to sell? You only have one retainer, so a lot of your items are going to be in the "wrong" ward.

An AH also would work to stabilize the economy. Prices will level out as the invisible hand of the market pushes prices up and down depending on supply and demand. With the current bazaar/retainer system, it is nearly impossible to tell what the "normal" price is for anything because you would have to browse every single bazaar and retainer and make a spreadsheet in excel to get an idea of fair pricing. Sound like fun to you? This is supposed to be fun, right?

And don't give me the "RMT will ruin the economy if they have an AH!!!11" argument. Breaking the game like this to try to eliminate RMT is complete and utter nonsense. RMT will find a way to make and sell their gil. All this does is punish the people who are playing by the rules.


Sigh...Really?(see how that works) Why do you think I included ukikithemonkey's post? All you have to do is add a global search function for the bazzar.
#38 Sep 29 2010 at 9:36 AM Rating: Good
9 posts
Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
I am totally confident that the game will get better, it's only a question of whether that takes days, weeks, months, or years. And that ball is entirely in SE's court.

I can't fathom for a minute that people with a level head would find this system -better- than an auction house for the bulk of players. A couple people might PERSONALLY think that THEY like it better, but the bulk of players would benefit more from an AH than the retainer system, searchable or not. -At best-, the current system can only ever hope to become "almost as good" as what an AH could be.

The problem is, whoever came up with this idea at SE refuses to let it die. They've given birth to a one-armed, one-legged, cleft pallete, blind, deaf, leper of a child and I'm pretty confident that the next couple of updates will be spent trying to give this kid prosthetic limbs, a new immune system, cosmetic surgery, and wasting their (and our) time and money trying to make a sh*tty system only slightly less sh*tty when what they really need to do is to just put the **** thing out of its misery and start over. (Sidenote: I am not advocating doing this with an -actual- child.)

I get what they had in mind. Thinking in terms of a true marketplace, you have dozens of vendors peddling wares, haggling, trading. Marketplaces in countries all over the world from Mexico to Morocco to India to Japan are gathering places for trading, bartering, and most importantly: fellowship and socializing. In theory, this is a great idea that could make a game great.

The problem is, this idea only works in the real world because you're buying from and selling to ACTUAL people. Once you replace actual people with NPC retainers, you take away everything that makes real marketplaces good. There's no bartering, there's no socializing or dealing, it's not really any different from if you were purchasing from a generic NPC, except the NPCs prices and wares are random, and there are about a thousand or so in one tiny room.

In theory, the only way to make this better would be to take out retailers, only let players have bazaars, and force players to stand around in the market wards to buy and sell, thus promoting the social and barter aspects. Do you really want to waste your time standing in a room for hours, trying to hawk your goods though?

People argue that an AH would feel too automated and remove the social aspect, but the social aspect has been removed by the existence of retainers at all. As I said, unless you're literally selling player to player, there is no benefit to a retainer with a bazaar compared to an AH. You're just conceptualizing the player without the benefit of the human contact. If there's not going to be any human contact ANYWAY, how does a robot selling goods to you differ from an NPC vendor? What's the point?


I agree but since they already decided to put the system in place wouldn't it be easier for them to just code in a search function for it rather than having to write a whole AH system? If so wouldn't it be better for them to just put the search function in for the way it currently is and add an AH later on and work on adding/polishing other stuff?
#39 Sep 29 2010 at 9:39 AM Rating: Default
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Jennestia wrote:
Imnotded wrote:
Quote:
Substandard games? You mean how every MMORPG no matter if it was from the 90s or 2000s released with problems? We are talking about a newly released MMORPG are we not? It really doesn't matter what year it is because every MMORPG releases with problems or systems people may or may not agree with.

Also what argument? It really doesn't matter the year. If a system worked in the 90s it sure as **** can work in 2010, all having more technology does for you is allowing you to expand on it. Also what we're forgetting is most of the MMORPGS with an Auction House system did not get it till shortly after their release.


Oh and you know all of these shooters, Call of Duty specifically comes from the general idea started in the 90s or even earlier? It's 2010, they shouldn't be using concepts started in the 90s nor should we be using engines designed back then, which, btw--we're still using today only updated.


The argument isnt' whether or not the retainer system can work or not, it probably can with enough tweaks. The argument is that a better concept has come out since EQ, aka the AH.


Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't this generally what an Auction House system is?

- 1 Spot To look up items (Aka a Search)
- 1 spot to buy items as in specific location or sometimes locations (hi FFXI) where you can buy the items?
- Universal pricing - basically as people flood the AH with items prices will generally plummet and stabilize.

So what's the major difference between Retainer selling and buying and an Auction house? Especially if they throw in the Search and Organization to it? You're still going to x location to buy your items. The only thing I can think of is "standard prices" for some items.


It's close, but there are still a few differences.

-Having to "zone in" the market. Yes its minor, but loading times arent exactly instant.
-In FFXI's case you were able to search all the items that could be listed on the AH and the sale history of them. This was a great tool to see the value of items and what items were better for you. This could be done in game and not from some website.
-It's the "norm". Probably a flawed viewpoint, but I can guarantee that there will be people who leave because there is no "AH".
-This is the big one... SE said they were going to implement one anyway! Seriously, stop trying to fix this totally broken system if you are going to add an auction house anyway.
#40 Sep 29 2010 at 9:41 AM Rating: Decent
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782 posts
Quote:
The original EQ was released in 1999. It is now 2010. That's like saying the new Call of Duty doesn't need voice chat or vehicles or ranks or killstreaks because Quake 2 didn't have those things.


Or dedicated servers, or the ability to mod.... oh wait... that's right... that's EXACTLY what they did.
#41 Sep 29 2010 at 9:42 AM Rating: Good
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782 posts
Quote:
-In FFXI's case you were able to search all the items that could be listed on the AH and the sale history of them. This was a great tool to see the value of items and what items were better for you. This could be done in game and not from some website.



No no, a thousand times no. One of the main points is getting rid of that damned price history.
#42 Sep 29 2010 at 9:45 AM Rating: Good
*****
11,539 posts
kahilm wrote:
Jennestia wrote:
kahilm wrote:
Jennestia wrote:
kahilm wrote:
ukikithemonkey wrote:
An AH really is not needed, as a bazzar system such as this can work. I mean, look at the original EQ, they had one, and it worked fine. All you need is to include a decent way to search the bazzars.


The original EQ was released in 1999. It is now 2010. That's like saying the new Call of Duty doesn't need voice chat or vehicles or ranks or killstreaks because Quake 2 didn't have those things.


Okay..enough with the "It's x year"..as I said in another topic..it's 2010 the world should be highly advanced and shouldn't have any economic issues because of the advancements. Remember Street Fighter 2010 as a kid? It's 2010 now. It doesn't matter if its 1992 or 2220.


So you're saying we should settle for substandard games because we're in a recession? Is that really your argument? Give me a break.


Substandard games? You mean how every MMORPG no matter if it was from the 90s or 2000s released with problems? We are talking about a newly released MMORPG are we not? It really doesn't matter what year it is because every MMORPG releases with problems or systems people may or may not agree with.

Also what argument? It really doesn't matter the year. If a system worked in the 90s it sure as **** can work in 2010, all having more technology does for you is allowing you to expand on it. Also what we're forgetting is most of the MMORPGS with an Auction House system did not get it till shortly after their release.


Oh and you know all of these shooters, Call of Duty specifically comes from the general idea started in the 90s or even earlier? It's 2010, they shouldn't be using concepts started in the 90s nor should we be using engines designed back then, which, btw--we're still using today only updated.

Edited, Sep 29th 2010 11:18am by Jennestia


That's the whole point, these systems should be updated as progress marches along. The retainer/bazaar system is a huge step backwards in both efficiency and in the fun factor. Is it fun for you to spend a significantly portion of your alloted play time searching through endless bazaars and retainers? Wouldn't it be more fun to simply type in a search term, see if something is being sold, buy it and be done?

And excusing these companies by saying "well every other game launches unfinished or buggy" is a joke.


Yeah, it's one thing to expect it to not be buggy, it's another to expect it to not be broken.

Would you defend the game in the same way if there was no combat system at launch and you couldn't attack anything at all? If anything, combat is equally as important as the ability to buy and sell things in an MMORPG.

I'm not saying that it won't get better; I'm sure it will. I expected problems, and I expected once I found out about the fact that they weren't going with an AH at launch that there probably won't be an AH for at least 2-4 months. I expected it.

Doesn't make it any less crap though. The economy is still a feature that the game revolves around, and SE is wasting time and effort and money trying to reinvent the wheel just because "everyone else has round wheels and we want to be different". I fully expect SE to waste more time, more money, and more resources continually trying to "fix" the retainer system, in defiant opposition to adding an AH, no matter how much we ask and beg.

The next several months will be spent with SE making their ****** system slightly less ****** in this way and that way, and with people complaining that it is still ******, and with people quitting, and with internet petitions and boycotting and long-winded posts about how the economy is terrible, and with patch after patch of "Hey, we made retainers better!" until SE finally wises up and realizes how much time they're wasting on a system that is costing them money, both in terms of the people they're paying to reinvent the wheel and the customers who are leaving because they aren't happy with it.

The question is not "will they fix it?", the question is "How long will we have to deal with the current system, and the simultaneous 'I Quit!'/'SE is terrible'/'Sign my petition'/etc threads and such?"

No one with a brain would expect it to be perfect at launch, but it would have been nice if it wasn't -this bad-. It's going to be bad for a while, in terms of the game itself and the players flooding the forums with their rants about this, that, and the other.

Strap in and get comfortable.
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#43SQPR, Posted: Sep 29 2010 at 9:48 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) selling stuff with tax is ***. Impose tax on retainer or AH that makes some sense. But getting taxed when putting stuffs on your own bazaar?? Is that a federal tax or provisional one?
#44 Sep 29 2010 at 9:48 AM Rating: Default
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windexy wrote:
Quote:
-In FFXI's case you were able to search all the items that could be listed on the AH and the sale history of them. This was a great tool to see the value of items and what items were better for you. This could be done in game and not from some website.



No no, a thousand times no. One of the main points is getting rid of that damned price history.


I think the history was nice, but I could easily live without it. However having all possible items listed was very nice.
#45 Sep 29 2010 at 9:49 AM Rating: Good
*****
11,539 posts
Yanshi wrote:
Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
I am totally confident that the game will get better, it's only a question of whether that takes days, weeks, months, or years. And that ball is entirely in SE's court.

I can't fathom for a minute that people with a level head would find this system -better- than an auction house for the bulk of players. A couple people might PERSONALLY think that THEY like it better, but the bulk of players would benefit more from an AH than the retainer system, searchable or not. -At best-, the current system can only ever hope to become "almost as good" as what an AH could be.

The problem is, whoever came up with this idea at SE refuses to let it die. They've given birth to a one-armed, one-legged, cleft pallete, blind, deaf, leper of a child and I'm pretty confident that the next couple of updates will be spent trying to give this kid prosthetic limbs, a new immune system, cosmetic surgery, and wasting their (and our) time and money trying to make a sh*tty system only slightly less sh*tty when what they really need to do is to just put the **** thing out of its misery and start over. (Sidenote: I am not advocating doing this with an -actual- child.)

I get what they had in mind. Thinking in terms of a true marketplace, you have dozens of vendors peddling wares, haggling, trading. Marketplaces in countries all over the world from Mexico to Morocco to India to Japan are gathering places for trading, bartering, and most importantly: fellowship and socializing. In theory, this is a great idea that could make a game great.

The problem is, this idea only works in the real world because you're buying from and selling to ACTUAL people. Once you replace actual people with NPC retainers, you take away everything that makes real marketplaces good. There's no bartering, there's no socializing or dealing, it's not really any different from if you were purchasing from a generic NPC, except the NPCs prices and wares are random, and there are about a thousand or so in one tiny room.

In theory, the only way to make this better would be to take out retailers, only let players have bazaars, and force players to stand around in the market wards to buy and sell, thus promoting the social and barter aspects. Do you really want to waste your time standing in a room for hours, trying to hawk your goods though?

People argue that an AH would feel too automated and remove the social aspect, but the social aspect has been removed by the existence of retainers at all. As I said, unless you're literally selling player to player, there is no benefit to a retainer with a bazaar compared to an AH. You're just conceptualizing the player without the benefit of the human contact. If there's not going to be any human contact ANYWAY, how does a robot selling goods to you differ from an NPC vendor? What's the point?


I agree but since they already decided to put the system in place wouldn't it be easier for them to just code in a search function for it rather than having to write a whole AH system? If so wouldn't it be better for them to just put the search function in for the way it currently is and add an AH later on and work on adding/polishing other stuff?


What's the point though? Like I said, I'm well aware they're going to waste time, money, and resources trying to "fix it". I'm sure they probably will add a search function, eventually. And it will be terrible at first and they'll improve it little by little, making it slightly less bad each time.

My point is: Why waste all this time and energy trying to fix a system that, at best, can still never be as good as an AH, when what they really need to be focusing their efforts on is an AH?

Again, I doubt this will stop them though. The next few months -WILL- be spent wasting their time trying to "fix it", until they finally wise up.
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Mikhalia: Sounds about right.
#46 Sep 29 2010 at 9:51 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
-At best-, the current system can only ever hope to become "almost as good" as what an AH could be.


I disagree. The Marketplace does not differ from an AH as much as people think. All they need to do is make you able to search and buy items from afar, and it'll become a better system than AH was, although there would be a lot of dev time wasted.

But that's something you can't really help.
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#47 Sep 29 2010 at 9:53 AM Rating: Good
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Hyanmen wrote:
Quote:
-At best-, the current system can only ever hope to become "almost as good" as what an AH could be.


I disagree. The Marketplace does not differ from an AH as much as people think. All they need to do is make you able to search and buy items from afar, and it'll become a better system than AH was, although there would be a lot of dev time wasted.

But that's something you can't really help.

I'm sorry, but how can it be better than an AH system.
#48 Sep 29 2010 at 9:57 AM Rating: Decent
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241 posts
Are they really still stuck on this idea that the retainer system is superior to an auction house.

Please stop being ignorant and give us our auction house, I know for a fact much of that feedback you've gotten, was to scrap the whole retainer system in general, and just put in the auction house that everyone wants.
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#49 Sep 29 2010 at 10:06 AM Rating: Good
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Looks like htey will be adding a Search that at least tells you which items are on a particular floor of the ward without having to check retianers. This is good.

If there are 6 or so different floors, then the categories will be fairly specific. There really won't be that many retainers on eahc floor so the lag thing might not be a huge deal.

I would guess Armor, Weapons, and hten a floor for each type of carft supply: Leatherworking, Cooking, Smithing, Weaving, etc.

They said we will get multiple Retianers so...

It looks like this might sort itself out quite nicely for both selling ant buying. If I want a new sword I sarch and it shows me what sowrds are avialable and on which floor it is located. I go to that floor and browse for it (and there won't be anywhere near as many retainers as are currently on Floor 1).

I don't waste huge amounts of time searching for something that never existed in the first place.

For selling it should be easy enough to seperate your items accross a couple of different Retainers so that you can keep items on the appropriate floors.

I'm looking forward to seeing how it works out.

#50 Sep 29 2010 at 10:10 AM Rating: Good
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Apparently I am the only one that hated the whole auction house thing. It sets articifial/perceived value and inhibits deals being worked indepenent of the transaction history.

I take that back to a degree. The AH was good for consumable supplies. Perhaps we should have an AH for consumables (food, dirnks, and raw crafting materials), and leave the retainer system in place for finished products like Armor and weapons.

#51 Sep 29 2010 at 10:15 AM Rating: Decent
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Mithsavvy wrote:
Apparently I am the only one that hated the whole auction house thing. It sets articifial/perceived value and inhibits deals being worked indepenent of the transaction history.

I take that back to a degree. The AH was good for consumable supplies. Perhaps we should have an AH for consumables (food, dirnks, and raw crafting materials), and leave the retainer system in place for finished products like Armor and weapons.



How does an AH set "articifial/perceived" values? People sell at a price that they think is fair and people buy at a price they think is fair. The only advantage a non AH system has over an AH system is that sellers can sell their goods for much more than they would be able to with an AH system. This is because buyers are not as informed as buyers with an AH database to search through.

Believe me, I know this to be true. I've made over 400k so far in this game mostly by selling high to buyers who don't know any better.
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