Forum Settings
       
« Previous 1 2 3
This Forum is Read Only

Missing the point? MMO, Crafting, and AHFollow

#1 Sep 29 2010 at 10:03 AM Rating: Decent
43 posts
I've been reading through these forums for the last week, and I think most people are missing the point of what SquareEnix is trying to do. I don't start playing until tomorrow so I may change my mind, but I thought I would share.

Lots of people are complaining about the lack of an Auction House, searching retainers, and the crafting requirements. I think you are missing the point.

Auction Houses: Square is trying to setup a whole new economy based on the players. This is a world before eBay, Amazon, and Google. Auction Houses make it too easy to find the going rate and leaves little room for price variants. With the current setup, you are supposed to be looking for the going rate by searching multiple vendors. You can also be your own promoter. Do some shouts about your retainer or your bazaar saying what you have and how much. Do some marketing for yourself, rather than relying on the Auction House to hold your hand through it all. Work with other players to group retainers together that sell similar things in the same area to make it easier for others to find your wares.

Crafting Requirements: A lot of people are also complaining about how high you need to have some crafting abilities to get components for lower level things. Again, I think SE's purpose in all of this is to get you to appreciate the MULTIPLAYER part of the MMO experience. You shouldn't have to make every component to get something you want. Use the economy to buy the parts you can't make yourself, be it components that are higher level than you, or those that you don't have any experience in. Yes it will be slow and expensive to begin with, but this is the ground level of a new setup, it will take time for people to find out what components are highly sought after and to work to get them available. Rather than me getting frustrated at this, it get me excited to see how it all plays out and to a part of it. If everyone is looking for a certain component, I can do my part to either make it, or to get the components that I can sell to the crafters who are a high enough level to make something bigger than myself.

Overall, this is a MultiPlayer game, but most of the chatter on the boards revolves around everyone playing it like it is a solo game. Work with other people. Promote your goods. Buy, sell, and trade to get what you need. And be patient right now while all of this gets going. You don't have to beat the game in a week. Take a break from leveling your DoW classes if you can't get the equipment you need and experience other aspects of the game. If everything was available at NPC shops or in a single (or 3) auction houses, you could miss out on a huge part of the experience SE is trying to put together.

I'm not saying that everything is perfect, and I'm sure there is room for improvement, but this contant drone about needing an Auction House is getting old when there are other alternatives in the game for us to explore and try out, and try to make work.
#2 Sep 29 2010 at 10:06 AM Rating: Default
*
74 posts
Well done that man! Thumbs up from me.
#3 Sep 29 2010 at 10:08 AM Rating: Good
*
222 posts
Please let us know how you feel after you start playing. Everything sounds good in theory.
____________________________


#4 Sep 29 2010 at 10:38 AM Rating: Good
Scholar
30 posts
Quote:
I don't start playing until tomorrow so I may change my mind, but I thought I would share.


Please tell us more about this game you haven't played yet. I'm intrigued.
#5 Sep 29 2010 at 10:48 AM Rating: Excellent
***
1,636 posts
You're looking through the same rose colored glasses that the SE devs had in mind. More realism makes for a really terrible playing experiance. So far my playtime has been about 30% looking through bazaars, 20% traveling, 40% crafting, 10% actually getting to kill things for exp.

it takes me an hour or 2 to run errands in real life.. It shouldn't take as long in a game.

Edited, Sep 29th 2010 12:49pm by KujaKoF
____________________________


#6 Sep 29 2010 at 10:56 AM Rating: Good
*
172 posts
Have fun shouting for hours while sitting in one place with almost noone coming to your bazaar.

From what i noticed in open beta, even when sitting in a high population city, using the auto-translator, telling people what i had to sell and where i was. Noone came. Maybe i was selling bad stuff, but i was selling the most frequently used crafting items + shards for good prices.

The odds of someone wanting what you have to sell while sitting/standing in one place shouting is very low.

Any type of auction house or search function would allow for you to not have to sit on your *** shouting hours on end to sell your goods and allow for you to sell items while offline.

Auction house also allows for discounted prices on high supply, low demand items, instead of people putting up whatever price they see fit.

Auction house would also let you get rid of the crafting materials you get from harvesting that you don't use to craft with. Not a weaver? Got tons of moko grass? Throw it on auction for a nice low price, but higher then npc'ing it.

I preordered the standard edition, but today i'm going to gamestop to see if i can get my $5 back from that to use on getting FF13. It's not an mmo, but at least it's not an mmo without an auction house. Once FF14 gets an auction house, chocobos/a quicker way to get around, better combat + targetting, more options when crafting (repeat last recipe, a recipe book)I'll look into getting it, till then I'm gonna try to find something more fun to play.

I'm expecting most of this stuff to be added by the PS3 release. Till then it seems SE is just using the PC release/s as a paid beta test. I'll pay for this game when it has more to offer, till then would rather not waste my time + money.

Edited, Sep 29th 2010 1:01pm by Nokturnal
#7 Sep 29 2010 at 11:02 AM Rating: Default
*
83 posts
Troll the thread if you want, but I completely agree with OP.

The problem this communitity has right now is there is a lot of new people that don't understand how SE works, they don't have the experience of FFXI and so a lot of things are new a difficult to grasp. People simply don't think beyond what they already know (WoW, LOTRO)

The people that do have experience with FFXI came into a faily well refined game aren't getting that fact this is a process SE is going though to properly evolve the game to want the majority of people want.

Are there really anonying things?? YES will they get fixed??? YES. SE wants to keep making money. MMO isn't a race to the finish.... If you want that play a first person shooter.
#8 Sep 29 2010 at 11:02 AM Rating: Good
****
9,526 posts
MallocArray wrote:


Crafting Requirements: A lot of people are also complaining about how high you need to have some crafting abilities to get components for lower level things. Again, I think SE's purpose in all of this is to get you to appreciate the MULTIPLAYER part of the MMO experience. You shouldn't have to make every component to get something you want. Use the economy to buy the parts you can't make yourself, be it components that are higher level than you, or those that you don't have any experience in. Yes it will be slow and expensive to begin with, but this is the ground level of a new setup, it will take time for people to find out what components are highly sought after and to work to get them available. Rather than me getting frustrated at this, it get me excited to see how it all plays out and to a part of it. If everyone is looking for a certain component, I can do my part to either make it, or to get the components that I can sell to the crafters who are a high enough level to make something bigger than myself.

Overall, this is a MultiPlayer game, but most of the chatter on the boards revolves around everyone playing it like it is a solo game. Work with other people. Promote your goods. Buy, sell, and trade to get what you need. And be patient right now while all of this gets going. You don't have to beat the game in a week. Take a break from leveling your DoW classes if you can't get the equipment you need and experience other aspects of the game. If everything was available at NPC shops or in a single (or 3) auction houses, you could miss out on a huge part of the experience SE is trying to put together.



Yep. You got it man. Parts of the system can be frustrating at times - but I like it - you know why? Because I've made lots of connections through crafting already. I give a blacksmith/armorer hammer and dagger grips and animal glue with my alchemist/carpenter – he makes me bronze plates so I can make wooden shields. I trade dye and hides I can’t use to a leatherworker – he gives me grey sheepskin straps. I trade enough ingredients to make 4 bone staves (which I can’t make) to a goldsmith – he gives me one and gets to keep the rest of the mats.

People give me flax, I give them wands and canes. I do repairs for a friend, he gives me logs and branches to use for carpenter. I give clothworking supplies to a weaver, she gives me alchemy supplies she can’t use. I give ores to a blacksmith/armorer he gives me salt and bronze nails. Etc. Etc.

Yeah, it is harder than using an auction house. Sometimes it is frustrating because the mats you need for a low level synth are high level. Those mats can’t be found right now because if they are being made they are probably being traded between people. I don’t actually sell any components on my bazaars – only finished products and mats I can’t use and don’t have anyone to trade to. I’ll make components usually only for a specific trade because we can't order extra retainers right now and I don't have the space for them. I’m sure I’m not the only one who does that. That means that to make a lot of synths you either need to level everything (which isn’t really possible because of space issues) or actually work with other people.

I like that crafting has a social aspect because of the lack of auction house. I wish players would use the wards more intelligently – but I am guessing that will come with time.
____________________________
lolgaxe wrote:
When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#9 Sep 29 2010 at 11:04 AM Rating: Decent
Quote:
Lots of people are complaining about the lack of an Auction House, searching retainers, and the crafting requirements. I think you are missing the point.

Auction Houses: Square is trying to setup a whole new economy based on the players. This is a world before eBay, Amazon, and Google. Auction Houses make it too easy to find the going rate and leaves little room for price variants. With the current setup, you are supposed to be looking for the going rate by searching multiple vendors. You can also be your own promoter. Do some shouts about your retainer or your bazaar saying what you have and how much. Do some marketing for yourself, rather than relying on the Auction House to hold your hand through it all. Work with other players to group retainers together that sell similar things in the same area to make it easier for others to find your wares


I agree with you here. I would like if the retainer system were not as clunky as it is but I like the idea of it.

Quote:
Crafting Requirements: A lot of people are also complaining about how high you need to have some crafting abilities to get components for lower level things. Again, I think SE's purpose in all of this is to get you to appreciate the MULTIPLAYER part of the MMO experience. You shouldn't have to make every component to get something you want. Use the economy to buy the parts you can't make yourself, be it components that are higher level than you, or those that you don't have any experience in. Yes it will be slow and expensive to begin with, but this is the ground level of a new setup, it will take time for people to find out what components are highly sought after and to work to get them available. Rather than me getting frustrated at this, it get me excited to see how it all plays out and to a part of it. If everyone is looking for a certain component, I can do my part to either make it, or to get the components that I can sell to the crafters who are a high enough level to make something bigger than myself.


+1 this. I teamed up with 2 LS mates to make Harpoons for 2 of us and it was awesome Smiley: grin

Quote:
Yep. You got it man. Parts of the system can be frustrating at times - but I like it - you know why? Because I've made lots of connections through crafting already. I give a blacksmith/armorer hammer and dagger grips and animal glue with my alchemist/carpenter – he makes me bronze plates so I can make wooden shields. I trade dye and hides I can’t use to a leatherworker – he gives me grey sheepskin straps. I trade enough ingredients to make 4 bone staves (which I can’t make) to a goldsmith – he gives me one and gets to keep the rest of the mats.

People give me flax, I give them wands and canes. I do repairs for a friend, he gives me logs and branches to use for carpenter. I give clothworking supplies to a weaver, she gives me alchemy supplies she can’t use. I give ores to a blacksmith/armorer he gives me salt and bronze nails. Etc. Etc.

Yeah, it is harder than using an auction house. Sometimes it is frustrating because the mats you need for a low level synth are high level. Those mats can’t be found right now because if they are being made they are probably being traded between people. I don’t actually sell any components on my bazaars – only finished products and mats I can’t use and don’t have anyone to trade to. I’ll make components usually only for a specific trade because we can't order extra retainers right now and I don't have the space for them. I’m sure I’m not the only one who does that. That means that to make a lot of synths you either need to level everything (which isn’t really possible because of space issues) or actually work with other people.

I like that crafting has a social aspect because of the lack of auction house. I wish players would use the wards more intelligently – but I am guessing that will come with time.


+1 this too. I've done more transactions through bartering than for gil.

Edited, Sep 29th 2010 10:08am by SkinwalkerAsura
#10 Sep 29 2010 at 11:05 AM Rating: Good
****
9,526 posts
Nokturnal wrote:
Have fun shouting for hours while sitting in one place with almost noone coming to your bazaar.

From what i noticed in open beta, even when sitting in a high population city, using the auto-translator, telling people what i had to sell and where i was. Noone came. Maybe i was selling bad stuff, but i was selling the most frequently used crafting items + shards for good prices.

The odds of someone wanting what you have to sell while sitting/standing in one place shouting is very low.



My stuff sells pretty much as fast as I can make it - but I sell it for ACTUALLY good prices - 2K-3K for a maple wand - 2.5K-3.5K for an ash cane. I only shout when someone else shouts an item I make - and I shout a lower price. Then I usually sell one or two instantly - but I find I sell a lot just by crafting them in a public place with some on my bazaar.

Edited, Sep 29th 2010 2:42pm by Olorinus
____________________________
lolgaxe wrote:
When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#11 Sep 29 2010 at 11:05 AM Rating: Decent
*
83 posts
MMO isn't a race to the finish....

Why not just have your character created at level 50 with max skills in all areas. Were you expecting to be uber in just a few months or something? I don't get it what's the rush?

MMO isn't a race to the finish....
MMO isn't a race to the finish....
MMO isn't a race to the finish....
MMO isn't a race to the finish....
MMO isn't a race to the finish....
MMO isn't a race to the finish....
MMO isn't a race to the finish....
MMO isn't a race to the finish....
MMO isn't a race to the finish....
MMO isn't a race to the finish....
#12 Sep 29 2010 at 11:05 AM Rating: Decent
Scholar
22 posts
I can understand the idea of crafting an experience that reflects a time before ebay, amazon.com, and all the other conveniences we have today. However, that does not mean that you should include all the frustrations that come along with not having those conveniences. It is a tricky proposition. Additionally, SE is working against this idea by including other conveniences which "ruin" the reality of a more primitive age by including Linkshells, NPC Linkpearls, Aetherite Crystals (sp?), and air ships (intro movie).

The additiona of an AH or other convenient methodology that reduces the amount of time wasted idly browsing through a clumsly assortment of random npc vendors selling the miscellaneous trash that players accumulate would not lessen the the experience of the player. It would enhance it.

Wasting 2 hours of game time trying to find a low level recipie ingredient is not fun, it is a chore.
____________________________
Raelos Kriegor
Bodhum Server
#13 Sep 29 2010 at 12:34 PM Rating: Good
Scholar
*
152 posts
I agree 100% with you, OP.

Yes, there are frustrations in the game as it is currently, but the lack of an Auction House is not one of them, to me.

Now, If I could just get those Lalafells to stop crafting between my legs, I'd be happy. Seriously, craft next to me, not under me:p
#14 Sep 29 2010 at 12:52 PM Rating: Good
Sage
***
1,675 posts
kahilm wrote:
Quote:
I don't start playing until tomorrow so I may change my mind, but I thought I would share.


Please tell us more about this game you haven't played yet. I'm intrigued.



If the OP is already singing the game's praises then I'm sure he's going to make excuses for the broken systems when he starts playing.

I understand completely what SE is trying to do. They are trying to add a timesink where before there wasn't one.

Yes, in all seriousness, in theory these are very cool ideas. But in practice it is the antithesis of casual playing. Especially when they are half-baked ideas.

If you add up the things that are missing from the game you can either excuse them by saying that it is intentional to the game world and "direction" of the game. OR that they are intentional because they just want a time sink, OR that it is a work in progress.

I'm still under the impression that these sorts of things will be "fixed" over time, as there are certain things a majority of people aren't going to put up with.

#15 Sep 29 2010 at 12:57 PM Rating: Decent
***
1,446 posts
Hasn't anyone considered the AH will be implemented eventually and wasn't at launch simply because they wanted to stabilize the servers with the main part of the action before introducing a system that is guaranteed to double their network traffic? Get it working on the things we want to do at the start like leveling up and exploring - yes I know buying gear/items is important but you can get by without it for a few weeks as opposed to not being able to kill enemies.
____________________________
Kyansaroo - Kujata
Windurst Rank 10
Tarutaru
BLM 75 / WHM 75 / BST 75 / RDM 75 / BRD 75
Next to 75: COR 47 / SCH 58
RotZ: Complete
CoP: Complete
ToAU: In-Progress
WoTG: In-Progress
#16 Sep 29 2010 at 1:03 PM Rating: Decent
***
1,636 posts
Quote:
Hasn't anyone considered the AH will be implemented eventually and wasn't at launch simply because they wanted to stabilize the servers with the main part of the action before introducing a system that is guaranteed to double their network traffic? Get it working on the things we want to do at the start like leveling up and exploring - yes I know buying gear/items is important but you can get by without it for a few weeks as opposed to not being able to kill enemies.


I'm sure not many people have considered that, because has told us why they didnt add an AH. they think the AH "sets" prices, and didn't want that to happen. Its a dumb idea. Your suggestion would have made some sense.
____________________________


#17 Sep 29 2010 at 1:16 PM Rating: Good
**
429 posts
The one thing that would keep the bazaar spirit and not make it as difficult to use is to implement the kind of searching and character messages FFXI had.

If you went to Battalia/Rolanberry and did a /sea, you would get dozens of people with blue dots next to their name, and you could check their message to see what they were selling.
#18 Sep 29 2010 at 1:16 PM Rating: Good
Scholar
***
1,104 posts
KujaKoF wrote:
You're looking through the same rose colored glasses that the SE devs had in mind. More realism makes for a really terrible playing experience.it takes me an hour or 2 to run errands in real life.. It shouldn't take as long in a game.Edited, Sep 29th 2010 12:49pm by KujaKoF

Yeah its odd. Some people feel like 'realism' makes a game but if I'm not mistaken we have reality for realism, and no shortage of it either. Compelling, engaging play mechanics drive successful games, not necessarily an adherence to 'realism'. I truly don't believe that's what we're seeing here.
____________________________

Melaahna Valiera
#19 Sep 29 2010 at 1:18 PM Rating: Decent
9 posts
MallocArray wrote:
Auction Houses: Square is trying to setup a whole new economy based on the players. This is a world before eBay, Amazon, and Google.


A world without eBay, Amazon, or Google?!!!

Heck, I don't think i want to live in that world....

(I would never get any shopping done if i couldn't go online and search for what i wanted)
#20 Sep 29 2010 at 1:26 PM Rating: Good
Scholar
*
220 posts
I tend to agree with the OP.

In 5 years of FFXI, I don't think I can recall ever once buying anything from someone's bazaar - I could always get things cheaper on AH. The way the AH functioned in FFXI was the problem; particularly how it would show the amount paid for the last 25 items sold. This resulted in a strong drive for crafters to constantly undercut prices to the point where profit was almost non-existant.

WoW has plenty of market fluctuation because there's no record of price. It also helps that gold from quests is plentiful enough to limit the undercutting wars.

I can't see how having a basic search function for bazaars (basically an Auction House) would be detrimental to FFXIV.
____________________________
Atlee Elmont
#21 Sep 29 2010 at 1:39 PM Rating: Good
*
208 posts
MallocArray wrote:

Auction Houses: Square is trying to setup a whole new economy based on the players. This is a world before eBay, Amazon, and Google. Auction Houses make it too easy to find the going rate and leaves little room for price variants.

I've posted my thoughts regarding an AH in other threads, but 'realism' is always a weak foundation on which to build an arguement regarding a fantasy game.

MallocArray wrote:

Crafting Requirements: A lot of people are also complaining about how high you need to have some crafting abilities to get components for lower level things.

What I've seen people complaining about is not needing an item from a different craft to complete their synth. What I have seen is people complaining it takes, for example, a higher clothcraft to make hempen cloth than to fashion the hempen cowl, which is made from the cloth.

MallocArray wrote:

Overall, this is a MultiPlayer game, but most of the chatter on the boards revolves around everyone playing it like it is a solo game. Work with other people. Promote your goods. Buy, sell, and trade to get what you need.

Very difficult with such a frustraiting chat system. Between chatbox getting deleted as you type and the very limited number of characters per imput its more than I was willing to tolerate.

But I'm glad you enjoy it because everyone should find something they enjoy to do with their time. I also hope you do not mind how much of your text I omitted for my reply.

Edited, Sep 29th 2010 3:40pm by PageCCCXI
#22 Sep 29 2010 at 1:44 PM Rating: Excellent
****
6,470 posts
I vehemently disagree with the OP.

According to the devs themselves, this game was created with a more casual playerbase: players like me, in mind. Yes, it's physically possible to use the system in the manner in which you describe it. Unfortunately, it's expensive and extraordinarily time-consuming.

You say to "...use the economy to buy the parts that you can't make for yourself." I ask in response, "What economy?" All the items that I use are either self-provided or provided by my linkshell. I find that attempting to search for and purchase a specific item from anyone else is a long-winded exercise in failure.

The system is broken. I'm not shocked that there are still people that defend it though. When email came out, plenty of people lamented that hand-written mail was so much more personal and decried it's disuse. But that doesn't mean that we should get rid of email; in general, it's much more effective at its job than hand-written mail was.

So too is the case with the AH. Sure, it has it's drawbacks. And sure, doing things the old-fashioned way has its merits. But that doesn't mean that we should allow such an egregious regression. An auction house is not just better because it is faster, it's better because it better serves the mechanics of the game system.

I'm not advocating that instant-gratification is the way things should be. In fact, I advocate that SE morph the retainer system into something like EVE's market system, instead of implementing an AH, for a number of reasons. But this is absurd. It detracts too much from the fun aspects of the game, replacing them with dull activities. It takes away player freedoms, and necessitates absurd levels of travel time, anima expenditure, and time spent slowly searching through bazaars. I'm not going to play a game with an 80/20 ratio in favor of those activities. Not for very long, at least.

I understand the point. I understand the logic behind SE's decision.

I also understand that such logic will make their game die an early death.
____________________________
Latest Articles:
Monaco: What's Yours is Mine Review

Follow me on Twitter!
#23 Sep 29 2010 at 1:53 PM Rating: Decent
23 posts
I know a lot of people are going to get mad and say "I'M NOT RELATING THIS TO THAT GAME" but in reality they are. When everyone is talking about the AH, all I can think of is WoW. I don't know about anybody else, but this is my way of getting away from WoW. I believe that not having an AH will get me to do the things I never got to do in any mmo ive played, which is ACTUALLY GET CRAFTING UP! In my wow days, there was no need to get those types of things up because I could just go and have either a friend or myself go buy me it off the AH.

So tomorrow when I get this game, I will actually have to make myself upgrades and such and actually get a feel of a more realistic game.
#24 Sep 29 2010 at 1:54 PM Rating: Good
*
127 posts
PageCCCXI wrote:
What I've seen people complaining about is not needing an item from a different craft to complete their synth. What I have seen is people complaining it takes, for example, a higher clothcraft to make hempen cloth than to fashion the hempen cowl, which is made from the cloth.


I think what SE is trying to accomplish with this is to make crafters not just depended upon other crafts, but also upon crafters of the same job. If materials are a higher level than finished products, then it would encourage higher level crafters to mass produce those materials to supply the market (and the lower level crafters skilling up). Otherwise, everyone would just produce finished products and wouldn't bother with trading materials.
#25 Sep 29 2010 at 2:24 PM Rating: Decent
43 posts
Briggst09 wrote:
I believe that not having an AH will get me to do the things I never got to do in any mmo ive played, which is ACTUALLY GET CRAFTING UP!


I believe this is the main part of the driving force behind no AH.

XelKarin wrote:

I think what SE is trying to accomplish with this is to make crafters not just depended upon other crafts, but also upon crafters of the same job. If materials are a higher level than finished products, then it would encourage higher level crafters to mass produce those materials to supply the market (and the lower level crafters skilling up).


Exactly.
#26 Sep 29 2010 at 2:36 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
***
1,431 posts
when you're level 12 (for example), still wearing level one pants only because you CANT FIND ANY FOR SALE, you'll want that AH back.

did i say it first? "if SE does not institute an AH before the PS3 release, the game will fail and FF fans will only play FFXI for the MMO needs."
#27 Sep 29 2010 at 3:12 PM Rating: Excellent
*****
11,539 posts
Briggst09 wrote:
I know a lot of people are going to get mad and say "I'M NOT RELATING THIS TO THAT GAME" but in reality they are. When everyone is talking about the AH, all I can think of is WoW. I don't know about anybody else, but this is my way of getting away from WoW. I believe that not having an AH will get me to do the things I never got to do in any mmo ive played, which is ACTUALLY GET CRAFTING UP! In my wow days, there was no need to get those types of things up because I could just go and have either a friend or myself go buy me it off the AH.

So tomorrow when I get this game, I will actually have to make myself upgrades and such and actually get a feel of a more realistic game.


You -do- know that FFXI has an AH, right?
____________________________
[ffxisig]55836[/ffxisig]

Mikhalia: and FWIW, my posts are 95% helpful, informative, or funny.
Mikhalia: only 5% or less of my posts are utter crap.
Tyapex: 393 posts of utter crap...
Mikhalia: Sounds about right.
#28Briggst09, Posted: Sep 29 2010 at 4:59 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) i learn something new everyday
#29 Sep 29 2010 at 5:01 PM Rating: Decent
**
501 posts
Making a game based on the tastes of players from 10+ years ago isn't a sound business model. I used to like playing games like the original Zelda. If you offered me that same experience with no map and no idea where to go I would not have fun with it today. Accepting the way the market is isn't such a horrible thing.
____________________________
Cactuszach Rathebringer- [EQ]85 Human Pally Karana
-retired

Cactuszach- [FFXI] 75 Galka Monk Hades server
-retired

Cactuszach- [LOTRO] 50 Dwarf Guardian Vilya server
-retired
#30 Sep 29 2010 at 5:04 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
**
510 posts
If everyone sat and 'marketed' their bazaar all the while, the chatlog would be flooded with constant SPAM, much like RMT spammage.

I pretty much couldn't care less about crafting. Never have done. However, it seems like you're going to pretty much need to in order to get some kind of decent income in this game. That I am not looking forward to.

I neither rated the original poster up nor down, but I pretty much disagree with everything he said except for: "this is a Multiplayer game," as there's absolutely no denying that.
#31 Sep 29 2010 at 5:28 PM Rating: Excellent
MallocArray wrote:
Auction Houses: Square is trying to setup a whole new economy based on the players. This is a world before eBay, Amazon, and Google. Auction Houses make it too easy to find the going rate and leaves little room for price variants. With the current setup, you are supposed to be looking for the going rate by searching multiple vendors. You can also be your own promoter. Do some shouts about your retainer or your bazaar saying what you have and how much. Do some marketing for yourself, rather than relying on the Auction House to hold your hand through it all. Work with other players to group retainers together that sell similar things in the same area to make it easier for others to find your wares.


If I was living in FFXIV world and I was crafting to keep a roof over my head then yea this makes sense. Fact is I'm not, this is a game. You currently walk into a market ward (Which there is 10-12 wards per city) and there is ~50 NPC merchants standing around. With the various interface interactions it takes roughly a min to browse a NPC to check their goods so to view just one market ward has for sale takes almost an hour of just browsing.

I myself have no urge to spend an hour to just see what the prices and availability of goods are for what could possibly be only 1/12 of a city's market once server population increases. If that floats your boat more power to you, for me that is not how I want to spend my time online.


Edited, Sep 29th 2010 8:51pm by darkasmodai|WH
#32 Sep 29 2010 at 6:50 PM Rating: Excellent
ninechars wrote:

The problem this communitity has right now is there is a lot of new people that don't understand how SE works, they don't have the experience of FFXI and so a lot of things are new a difficult to grasp. People simply don't think beyond what they already know (WoW, LOTRO)


No

Other players can logically and objectively look at a game system and see the merits of having a certain element include or excluded.

Just because WoW, LoRT, FFXI or whatever has auction houses doesn't make them a bad element to have in a game.

To me having regional action houses creates the localized market SE has stated they want to see and facilitates a real market forming that doesn't require me to browse/search through hundreds of player created NPC merchants. There could even be local markets in the various towns I have seen around the main cities. If crafting resources are local to that region then it would create a natural point where you could off load your goods to be sold by the local market. These smaller markets could possibly tax your goods slightly less then the main cities and maybe have more slots for you to sell goods then the main markets. Some various in game advantages to selling at these verses the main markets to increase the appeal.

I don't mind having to go to a few places that have a general type of goods for sale to get what I'm looking for. Even with the new planned change SE announced about having the market wards changes to support narrower type of goods doesn't to me address the man issue of having to search through hundreds of faceless NPC vendors to get something I'm looking for.

If part of SE goal is to force more player interaction then the whole retainer system is completely counter to that.

Edited, Sep 29th 2010 8:53pm by darkasmodai|WH

Edited, Sep 29th 2010 8:53pm by darkasmodai|WH

Edited, Sep 29th 2010 8:57pm by darkasmodai|WH
#33 Sep 29 2010 at 7:25 PM Rating: Good
I do have to laugh a little at the claims they're making this game more casual friendly than FFXI.
____________________________
Die! Die die die. die die die die, die die. - Scarlet Briar
#34 Sep 29 2010 at 7:32 PM Rating: Good
**
305 posts
This is just speculation, take it as such:

SE is trying to implement this based on two reasons which i can think of:

1) Since they made crafting and gathering "classes" the they are trying to make the economic dealings of these classes more interactive - i.e. going out and browsing goods.

2) It has been said before on some other forums for other games that the eastern player base tends to like the "bazaar" system. My main support for this was Aion's initial release and the drama that went along with queues and bazaars as well as the in game surveys related to them.

Retainers to me, seem like SE's step towards allowing people to passively post things to a "bazaar" while allowing players to log out.

Personally, i wish for an AH. As others have said, this is a game, i don't want to spend time browsing 10-100+ retainers to find an item when since there is zero personal interaction with the seller an AH system would work fine enough and be faster.

Basically, accessibility / gameplay > immersion in this case.


Edit: personally, if i were to implement a "retainer" like this, i would have have them be my AH agent (ie, post things on the AH for me, buy things on the AH for me) and be the storage moogle... not saturating the city with bazaars.

It's not going to be a good market i think. People can play games with the AH, they can do the same with retainers. One negative retainers have for them is that after awhile people are not going to check up on prices because it takes so long to find a good sample size to compare prices with - i would think after 30 mins of browsing (which someone said it can take up to 60 or more) people would just buy the item if the price doesnt SEEM outrageous.

Edited, Sep 29th 2010 9:37pm by KacesofCaitsith
____________________________


#35 Sep 29 2010 at 8:10 PM Rating: Excellent
Scholar
*
216 posts
If everyone started shouting, wouldn't it be sort of annoying?
#36 Sep 29 2010 at 9:17 PM Rating: Decent
**
495 posts
The market system they want is fine but its clearly not finished and broken. It's their own **** fault for releasing the market in such a way where it doesn't work for a MAJORITY of the players and deserve to be criticized for it, but I also don't believe said system needs to be absolutely scrapped and an AH put in its place. I have played many games where a Market System is used and its just as casual as an AH system, and works just as well while at the same time promoting social crafting/wares selling. This is unlike an AH system of which the entire purpose is streamlining wares to get to the lowest selling point with the most minimal return and thus canibalizes crafting classes/tradeskill to a tool at best. Sure its convenient for most 'warriors' but this game is designed around the idea that crafting and gathering can too be just as important a skill to have in the grand scheme of things that its a job in itself. I'm sorry, the people who want an AH in the sense of WoW and FFXI are imo just asking to tone down the influence on the market crafters are going to have. They may not even realize this is what they want, but thats what they are asking for by having an easy/centralized market system where all wares, all prices, and all history on said items can be visible.

The key issue is features and eliminating bugs and UI issues. Once they get in the changes they outlined recently I think the market wards will work competantly if only a bit frustrating. The current UI, the lag on the UI, the problems with retainers needing to be reinstated on emergency maitenances (which is normally fine, but with one happening every night because of the games initial release... that is more friggin frustrating then it needs to be) are major problems that need to be addressed. The idea is sound, the implementation is the problem and nothing more. Some of you crying for an AH need to get it through your head a market system can and DOES work, its SE and them pushing out broken content that is the problem.
#37 Sep 29 2010 at 9:30 PM Rating: Good
Scholar
*
54 posts
From my perspective, the multi player part involves grouping to fight mobs, group questing, instancing and raids/HNM's and PVP. Along with the general day to day socializing. I personally max crafting in every game but most people don't and it's sure as heck not why people play these games.

The AH gets things done. Everyone, or most everyone, already knows about a player driven economy. The AH is already player driven to be honest, but no AH is a novel idea. It's apparently not cutting it though. Refer to all of the posts you've alleged read through the week for why. As posted above, people spend hours in stores in their day to day lives, do we really have to do it in a game too? However, if all of the other systems that are meant to aid and fuel a non-AH system were functional; i.e. chat, search, etc., then perhaps the majority wouldn't care about not having said AH.

The same complaints in five separate threads daily is getting to be a bit much though.
____________________________
FFXI Retired - 75 RNG/MNK/BLM/RDM/BRD/SMN.
WoW Retired - 70 Druid/Mage/Warlock/Shaman
Quote:
KristoFurwalken seyz: The bottom line is if this game didn't have "Final Fantasy" in the title no one would be defending it.
#38 Sep 29 2010 at 9:35 PM Rating: Excellent
***
1,566 posts
digitalcraft, Goblin in Disguise wrote:
I do have to laugh a little at the claims they're making this game more casual friendly than FFXI.



Aye, , though as a long-time XI player, I remember fondly the last thing they touted as being for casual players.
#39 Sep 29 2010 at 9:48 PM Rating: Good
Sephrick wrote:
digitalcraft, Goblin in Disguise wrote:
I do have to laugh a little at the claims they're making this game more casual friendly than FFXI.



Aye, , though as a long-time XI player, I remember fondly the last thing they touted as being for casual players.


It's sad that I still go directly to see what the SAM one is on the list. :(
____________________________
Die! Die die die. die die die die, die die. - Scarlet Briar
#40 Sep 29 2010 at 10:37 PM Rating: Good
You know, I wouldn't mind this system, if people actually replied to me, OR if I could find something in people's Bazaar's. Spent awhile shouting for multiple items for me to use towards my Woodworking, then shouted for low level gear, no one replied, after a couple hours, I gave up. As for bazaar's, same thing, no one is selling anything worthwhile.

I have a friend leveling all gathering + crafting classes to get things done, he's obviously going to get fed up quick. He too though, is getting no one's help, so overall, as it stands, the system is horrible and a MASSIVE time sink that accomplishes 0. If you have a shell with friends that each have their own craft, supplying stuff, great! If not though, it makes for a long, boring item hunt.

Edited, Sep 30th 2010 12:38am by Montsegurnephcreep
____________________________

#41 Sep 29 2010 at 10:40 PM Rating: Default
*
92 posts
Ok this is what SE should do, re-implement FFXI's Auction house, toolbar/macros, inventory slots, add auto-attack, throw out this UI and start over. Graphics are just fine dont touch them..

Or just take my monthly fee for this game while i play your alpha-beta-alpha.. lol
#42 Sep 29 2010 at 10:59 PM Rating: Good
**
595 posts
Spent 1h yesterday searching for 1 particular item to craft some new weapons (lvl 16, still using lvl 1 weap...). did 2 full wards, spent 1h, couldnt find (even overpriced, I was pretty deseperate at the end), ended up leaving, with 1h less to play, being quite angry and with 1 less sell/purchased made (meaning a less active economy for everybody). That's not sound business.

Add a GOOD search function for each ward (total ward, not each room) of all bazars, sorted by type of items and price and enable us to buy from this search function instead of finding the specific retainer with the **** lag and slow interface and we will have something. Also that way, no historic so no price settings, a bit less undercutting.

Thats my only problem on this ah point, the rest of the craft is really good, from the mini-game to the diversity. Basically i would love interdependancy if I actually COULD find the stuff im dependant on and not stay stuck after 1h of frustration. I can live with no ah per see, so long as they don't make the trading of goods a chore.

A nice update would also to have a linkpearl to communicate with my retainer to check from the field if his bazar is empty and to ask him to replenish from his own inventory. No RP issue, easy to do and really nice playability boost, especially since anima regenerate so slowly.
#43 Sep 30 2010 at 12:28 AM Rating: Decent
**
495 posts
Quote:
Spent 1h yesterday searching for 1 particular item to craft some new weapons (lvl 16, still using lvl 1 weap...). did 2 full wards, spent 1h, couldnt find (even overpriced, I was pretty deseperate at the end), ended up leaving, with 1h less to play, being quite angry and with 1 less sell/purchased made (meaning a less active economy for everybody). That's not sound business.

Add a GOOD search function for each ward (total ward, not each room) of all bazars, sorted by type of items and price and enable us to buy from this search function instead of finding the specific retainer with the **** lag and slow interface and we will have something. Also that way, no historic so no price settings, a bit less undercutting.

Thats my only problem on this ah point, the rest of the craft is really good, from the mini-game to the diversity. Basically i would love interdependancy if I actually COULD find the stuff im dependant on and not stay stuck after 1h of frustration. I can live with no ah per see, so long as they don't make the trading of goods a chore.

A nice update would also to have a linkpearl to communicate with my retainer to check from the field if his bazar is empty and to ask him to replenish from his own inventory. No RP issue, easy to do and really nice playability boost, especially since anima regenerate so slowly.


This is exactly what they said they would do (search). People just glossed over the changes they are implementing in a couple weeks. They said 'precise information search' within wards is coming (or being 'worked on'). They said this before even the release happened. They wanted to wait till release, gather information from people who are playing the retail client and the retail economy (What the **** was beta for?) to gauge interest in what 'search options' they needed to implement into the wards. The only up in the air info is if they will make it possible to buy stuff from a search either via retainer or an AH like system. They also said this search is supposed to be possible outside of the wards themselves, to what capacity remains to be seen.

The current face of the market wards fails, but it can be salvaged and made into a competant system and doesn't absolutely need to have a by the books AH system to work properly, in fact the overall game structure would suffer in the long term if they implemented a standard AH just because of the way they emphasized the crafting and gathering classes. They would need to tone down the flow of gathering items because they would get flooded in a centralized AH system to point of non-existence, alongside this crafting items would get flooded due to the nature of the skill up system and items would come out to mostly a loss till 'big ticket' items surfaced, at which point crafting just becomes a tool and not an actual profession.

One thing I would like to see from SE in regards to retainers. Make it possible to add discounts to items if someone buys more then one item, or parts of a set. They do this with search, it becomes a bonus to people who diligently look for someone. I like your idea on being able to replenish store items via an NPClinkpearl (the data is already availible!). They also need to lets us have scrolling search comments. Targetting an retainer NPC in a ward should give a comment telling people the wares they have. Its stupid to need to check every bazaar for wares where in real life you can just glance at a shop to get an 'idea' of what they got. There are lots of plus to a market system, but the ideas fall flat right now because its basically a featureless Mule that can bazaar in a limited territory (the wards instead of the world). This can and will change, the main issue is why the **** they thought it was ok to put out a economy system this featureless even if they had other plans. They should have waited till most thought it was ready, but oh well... they can't roll the clock back.
#44 Sep 30 2010 at 2:09 AM Rating: Decent
Scholar
**
510 posts
You know, with the AH Vs Bazaar thing, they could merge the two. An AH interface for browsing and telling you where theretainer is located or give you the player's name (on a bazaar) so you can contact them and barter.
#45 Sep 30 2010 at 2:20 AM Rating: Good
**
415 posts
I just think it's ridiculous almost to the point I don't even want to play anymore. I am level 11 walking around with level 1 armor. Now I just bought a level 6 Sceptor for 10k which I think is ridiculous. They need an ah or some kind of search function. I don't know how much longer I will be able to deal with this.
____________________________
http://vigilantcitizen.com/?p=3571 - Mind Control Theories Used By Mass Media
#46 Sep 30 2010 at 6:09 AM Rating: Excellent
*
51 posts
As darkasmodai said.. it takes along long long time to search the market wards.. not counting checking all the people standing around in the regular parts of town. I checked the entire city, ported to 2 camps, ported back, (12 anima btw) checked every single retainer in every market ward of the city, ran around town again checking people.. and only found 1 of the 2 items i was looking for and it was grossly overpriced.

Montsegurnephcreep wrote:
You know, I wouldn't mind this system, if people actually replied to me, OR if I could find something in people's Bazaar's. Spent awhile shouting for multiple items for me to use towards my Woodworking, then shouted for low level gear, no one replied, after a couple hours, I gave up. As for bazaar's, same thing, no one is selling anything worthwhile.
...........not needed so edited out.....................

Edited, Sep 30th 2010 12:38am by Montsegurnephcreep


I completely understand you there. I have tried to ask if people have things.. **** i even offered 1k for 1 hempen yarn for like 10 minutes and not one reply. I have even tried to give stuff away other then just go here vendor give me diddly for it. and no takers.. i think most the time no one is even looking at the chat. or maybe they have not turned off 1/2 the stuff so the screen is scrolling for every other thing in the game anyone is doing.. i might be missing something but i would like to make a few other chat tabs, but i aint seen how to do it yet. or they got fed up with trying to type something and something else happend on the screen and it keeps getting erased.

still not sure how i made my hempen tights, halfgloves, and a hempen cowl the other day.. but have failed today 14 times in a row to make even 1 hempen cloth even with a the crafting access help thing and i am a lvl 11 weaver. i can make the yarn all day though, lol.


but other then basically those gripes.. i have not had much a problem with the game.


side notes:
1: I want to find the person who thought not having a sort option for your inventory or retainer was a good idea and kick him in the balls.
2: 85 characters thats it per text line, including the person name if its a whisper.. 85.. really.. **** a tweet is longer then that. Did someone get hit with a bat in the head and come to work and make decisions?


edited cause i am a spaz and cannot spell, so fixed the messups saw.

Edited, Sep 30th 2010 8:15am by MeisterOtome
____________________________
Maka Albarn of Saronia
Conjurer & Botanist
http://lodestone.finalfantasyxiv.com/rc/character/status?cicuid=2547214

"It was my right to murder you anywhere and steal your house!, then Trammel came along and wrecked all the fun."
- Me of course.
#47 Sep 30 2010 at 6:21 AM Rating: Default
***
1,408 posts
I love the new ideas, I really do.

Simple as, I have played and I have sold things. I stuck crystals in my retainer and they were 90% gone and I mean gone! And it wasnt a few it was a lot!

I have gained probably close to 4-5k Shards so far. And 1st lot I NPC'd- about 1k. 2nd lot I went retainer another 1k and I am currently selling another 1.5k shards which I expect to be sold by now and I currenly have 1.5k+ shards on me.

I have yet to place items in there but this does seem to be working.


Perhaps more space needed for the market to help the lag?
____________________________


If my velocity starts to make you sweat, then just don't
let go
#48 Sep 30 2010 at 6:24 AM Rating: Excellent
Sage
****
8,779 posts
i never understood the "logic" of holding back an AH release so that a market ward-based economy could be established.

bazaars and AH's existed just fine together in FF11. im sure everyone remembers the little collections of bazaars outside the mog houses and at various high-traffic areas in cities. people came to know that different bazaars typically stocked different goods, be they mithkabobs, weapons, juice, crafting goods, or what have you. FF11 did fine with both an AH and a bazaar.

now, if they cant implement the AH yet for technical reasons, then sure, thats understandable. but unless some pretty drastic, user-friendly changes are made to the market ward/retainer system, then its going to fall flat on its face. its a neat idea on theory, but given that each city has about, oh, ten market wards, and each one could feasibly be filled with a hundred or so retainers, youre looking at having to browse individually thru quite a large number of bazaars before stumbling upon what you want. heck, even now, just a week after CE dropped, the first ward on the list is chock full of people, and the second ward is filling up fast. ive got the patience to look thru the 30 or so retainers on the second ward (where i typically park my retainer) and if im feeling REALLY adventurous, ill hit the first ward, which is literally knee deep in retainers. after about five minutes of tabbing thru stuff on that ward, my patience is done, and at best ive maybe checked out a couple dozen of the 100+ shops in there.

neat idea *in theory*. in practice, it leaves much to be desired. a combination market ward/bazaar economy with an AH to support it would be a wonderful compromise. heres hoping the forthcoming retainer changes will fit the bill.
____________________________
Quote:
The thing about me is that apparently it's very hard to tell when I'm drunk. So I feel like I'm walking sideways on a UFO and everyone else sees me doing the robot like a pro.
- MojoVIII
i have bathed in the blood of many. my life was spent well.
feral druids do it on all fours.
The One True Prophet of Tonkism.

http://therewillbebrawl.com/
#49 Sep 30 2010 at 6:43 AM Rating: Default
**
782 posts
Quote:
might be missing something but i would like to make a few other chat tabs, but i aint seen how to do it yet. or they got fed up with trying to type something and something else happend on the screen and it keeps getting erased.


Keep this in mind.

When we started on Wednesday there were absolutely zero items in the game.

Us crafters have been diligently leveling and creating these items you want. Unfortunately, because of the previous statement there isn't a supply of raw or refined materials yet. This means that to make a pair of glove or boots we have to sit down and craft EVERY SINGLE item that goes into your sword, gloves, hat, etc. Often going back out to farm the shards required.

This takes time and we are working as fast as possible to meet the demand.

Secondly, with the chat system broken the way it is while crafting chat is near impossible. So would you rather us stop what we are doing to answer you or continue pumping out parts and finished items?

I mean we could stop, but I guarantee that instead of supplying the server with 5 3/5-sets of bronze mail last night I could have replied and instead made a few pair of gloves and been done with it. Or you could let us keep going and check our bazaars.

Go to the repair guy in your town and check the bazaars there. Go to the bell in the adv guild and check there bazaars, check the bazaars of the people at the crafting guilds. These are the people who have the items your looking for. Hardly anyone is using retainers for the finished goods.


Edited, Sep 30th 2010 7:47am by windexy
#50 Sep 30 2010 at 6:58 AM Rating: Good
***
1,083 posts
ninechars wrote:
Troll the thread if you want, but I completely agree with OP.


Wow call me old-fashioned, but I did realize that simply disagreeing with the OP was considered trolling.

I guess times have changed >.>

What is ironic about the OPs thoughts is that in my particular case, I have gotten so frustrated with trying to find materials and goods through 'MULTIPLAYING' that I have quit it entirely. Its just easier to level all the crafts I need an MAKE EVERYTHING MYSELF! Seriously it is. I would advise people to go this route.

Farm everything yourself, Mine Botanist, craft all the sub-ingredients, make it yourself. So much easier.

Promoting doesn't work, searching bazaars doesn't work, going through retainers CERTAINLY doesn't work. For now relying on yourself alone is the best option!

windexy wrote:
Or you could let us keep going and check our bazaars. Go to the repair guy in your town and check the bazaars there. Go to the bell in the adv guild and check there bazaars, check the bazaars of the people at the crafting guilds. These are the people who have the items your looking for. Hardly anyone is using retainers for the finished goods.


What you're describing is an entire day's play session for me. I think you missed walking to other cities and checking their bazaars, oh and all the camps too - they all have bazaars we should probably check >.>

Edited, Sep 30th 2010 9:01am by rikkuotaku
____________________________
Wada: "There may be some areas of testing that were lacking or too rigid."
#51 Sep 30 2010 at 6:58 AM Rating: Good
***
1,636 posts
SE wants player to communicate for the economy, ok fine but its still not happening. The market wards are full on NPCs, no player interaction. So they want players I guess shouting in town to buy stuff, however there is no centralized crafting place. In fact the game encourages crafters to NOT be in one place very long. If I go to LL and look for a blacksmith, theres a great chance hes either 1) wandering through the wards looking for mats, 2) out doing his crafting leves, which require going to camps often well above your own level, 3) in some other town, leveling some other craft because nobody can get by at doing just 1.
____________________________


« Previous 1 2 3
This forum is read only
This Forum is Read Only!
Recent Visitors: 24 All times are in CST
Anonymous Guests (24)