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#1 Sep 29 2010 at 9:04 PM Rating: Default
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Why do people keep saying well FFXI had this years after, or they had NMs 2 years later blah blah. So every mmo is allowed to come out unfinished? But wait, it's coming. So you guys are the same people who would except new release movies to come out on VHS then later on DVD. Would you keep saying, "All movies start off like this, it's ok!" The excuses are getting lame, its 2010 MMOs are evolving, you keep talking in the past.
#2 Sep 29 2010 at 9:07 PM Rating: Decent
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Yeah I have played the game since ce release and in one week I feel like I have done everything there is to be done. Everything now feels like a chore.
#3 Sep 29 2010 at 9:10 PM Rating: Excellent
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I don't think a "finished" MMO even exists.
Movies come out at the theater, then they come out on DVD. All movies start off like this, it's ok!
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#4 Sep 29 2010 at 9:11 PM Rating: Default
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#5 Sep 29 2010 at 9:15 PM Rating: Excellent
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Movies are "finished". They have a beginning,a middle, and an end".

MMORPGs, or good ones anyway, are never "finished". The day an MMORPG is "finished" is the day it is dead.
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#6 Sep 29 2010 at 9:43 PM Rating: Default
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Ok saying finished has skewed this whole arguement, READY FOR RELEASE with up to date game mechanics
#7 Sep 29 2010 at 9:47 PM Rating: Decent
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Sherrick96 wrote:
Ok saying finished has skewed this whole arguement, READY FOR RELEASE with up to date game mechanics

Your whole argument is skewed. Fact does not equate to excuse. SE isn't asking to be excused , nor are we making excuses for them. It is what it is.
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#8 Sep 30 2010 at 7:28 PM Rating: Decent
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And what we are saying that in its shape right now, they should be making excuses because its an incomplete $80 piece of buying remorse. There is literally nothing to do other than leves, grinding, and crafting. Chat is clunky, the crafting system is weird, and the combat system is terrible. I have a lvl 13 lancer with a harpoon +1 and i still miss 30-50% of the time, this is with 50+ Dex and 3 copper and one bronze accuracy ring and this is against thistle tail marmots. I understand that there is some leeway to be given to a new mmo, but when things go from a little irritating to downright frustrating you really have to throw the fanboyism aside and read it for what it is . Now don't get me wrong this game is great to look at, the environments are unique, and the game has a lot of potential. As it stands however, this is not what i expected when i payed 80 dollars for my ce. I hope that maybe 6 months in the future this game will redeem itself but sadly i will be discontinuing my subscription after the free month.
#9 Sep 30 2010 at 7:33 PM Rating: Decent
Edited by bsphil
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Teneleven wrote:
SE isn't asking to be excused
True.

Teneleven wrote:
nor are we making excuses for them
False.
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Almalieque wrote:
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#10 Sep 30 2010 at 7:35 PM Rating: Decent
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bsphil wrote:
Teneleven wrote:
SE isn't asking to be excused
True.

Teneleven wrote:
nor are we making excuses for them
False.


Ok, i'll rephrase that. I am not making excuses for them. I stand by my "It is what it is." comment.
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#11 Sep 30 2010 at 7:39 PM Rating: Good
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So what in essence your saying is, if a game comes out without all of its content and balance changes etc it is not ready for release?

Every MMORPG i've played starts off with it's basics and then they change things or add things it is what keeps it going, if the game had everything already then what is there to look forward to?

I played WoW in beta and then for quite some time religiously and i'll tell you that was a VERY BASIC game to start with and they added crap tonnes of everything up to today, they have changed the entire game many times over, does that mean it wasn't ready for release?

If you want a game that is in your terms "ready for release" don't play an MMORPG it obviously isn't for you.
#12 Sep 30 2010 at 7:43 PM Rating: Decent
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Teneleven wrote:
bsphil wrote:
Teneleven wrote:
SE isn't asking to be excused
True.

Teneleven wrote:
nor are we making excuses for them
False.
Ok, i'll rephrase that. I am not making excuses for them. I stand by my "It is what it is." comment.
Fair enough.
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Almalieque wrote:
If no one debated with me, then I wouldn't post here anymore.
Take the hint guys, please take the hint.
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#13 Sep 30 2010 at 7:48 PM Rating: Excellent
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I make no excuses for this game. I do enjoy playing it, though. But I'm a grinder by nature. When people ask me how ffxiv is, I tell them it's unfinished. Then I explain the problems the game has and that right now I am playing more in optimism for the future than for any great aspect the game possesses in its current form.

When I stop enjoying the game, I will stop playing.

Just like ffxi... when retards could host abyssea parties at 30 and be level 65 in 5 hours, the game no longer became enjoyable to me. Haven't played since July.
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#14 Sep 30 2010 at 7:51 PM Rating: Good
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I have some good news for you OP. Nobody is forcing you to play this game! :D

If you think it's unfinished, go away and come back once you decide it's finished. If you don't like it, well, then just go away.

I'm enjoying the game a lot, and even with it's current bare bones build, it's a lot better than any other mmo on the market right now, at least imo. If you don't want to play it, stop making excuses about people making excuses and just quit.
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#15 Sep 30 2010 at 7:55 PM Rating: Decent
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Tiger228 wrote:
I have some good news for you OP. Nobody is forcing you to play this game! :D

If you think it's unfinished, go away and come back once you decide it's finished. If you don't like it, well, then just go away.

I'm enjoying the game a lot, and even with it's current bare bones build, it's a lot better than any other mmo on the market right now, at least imo. If you don't want to play it, stop making excuses about people making excuses and just quit.
While I absolutely agree that if you don't like the game as it stands right now you should NOT be paying money for it, I'll say that you should also be voicing your opinion as well. Minimizing negative comments only goes against your interests, by (admittedly slowly) sending the message that you're ok with the system as it stands. Complacency doesn't lead to action.
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His Excellency Aethien wrote:
Almalieque wrote:
If no one debated with me, then I wouldn't post here anymore.
Take the hint guys, please take the hint.
gbaji wrote:
I'm not getting my news from anywhere Joph.
#16 Sep 30 2010 at 7:56 PM Rating: Good
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I feel kind of bad for the devs, they obviously try to make a game to the best of their ability, but then the company suits come along and tell them that they need to release the game... so they release it, even if they feel that the game could've spent more time in development, only to get lambasted by gaming masses.

It's a no-win situation for them, but honestly: they've been doing this for years, and what they HAVE developed makes it seem as if FFXI taught them nothing about MMO-building.

I just want to know how they even greenlighted that UI.

#17 Sep 30 2010 at 8:00 PM Rating: Decent
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bsphil wrote:
Tiger228 wrote:
I have some good news for you OP. Nobody is forcing you to play this game! :D

If you think it's unfinished, go away and come back once you decide it's finished. If you don't like it, well, then just go away.

I'm enjoying the game a lot, and even with it's current bare bones build, it's a lot better than any other mmo on the market right now, at least imo. If you don't want to play it, stop making excuses about people making excuses and just quit.
While I absolutely agree that if you don't like the game as it stands right now you should NOT be paying money for it, I'll say that you should also be voicing your opinion as well. Minimizing negative comments only goes against your interests, by (admittedly slowly) sending the message that you're ok with the system as it stands. Complacency doesn't lead to action.


My only concern is that many (not all) of the complaints are actually a matter of personal choice. I would hate SE to change things because of a vocal minority on internet forums that shout the loudest whilst many of us really like the game.

Like I said, there are issues with the game that we can probably all agree on. And then there are personal preferences. Unfortunately a 5 minute review of these boards shows that most people cant tell the difference between the two.
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#18 Sep 30 2010 at 8:09 PM Rating: Good
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bsphil wrote:
Tiger228 wrote:
I have some good news for you OP. Nobody is forcing you to play this game! :D

If you think it's unfinished, go away and come back once you decide it's finished. If you don't like it, well, then just go away.

I'm enjoying the game a lot, and even with it's current bare bones build, it's a lot better than any other mmo on the market right now, at least imo. If you don't want to play it, stop making excuses about people making excuses and just quit.
While I absolutely agree that if you don't like the game as it stands right now you should NOT be paying money for it, I'll say that you should also be voicing your opinion as well. Minimizing negative comments only goes against your interests, by (admittedly slowly) sending the message that you're ok with the system as it stands. Complacency doesn't lead to action.


I am okay with the system as it stands now though... And I'm not saying that I don't want any new content, because the game as it is now is not the entire system as it stands. What's taking place is a progression, we are at only the very beginning, and SE will continue laying out content in phases for some time. Giving feedback probably won't matter for some time, because they likely have their minds made up about what they are gonna do, the only things that will probably change are minor balance tweaks and bug fixes. Down the road things will be more open to feedback, just like in FFXI where they started adding solo content years later after the initial game experience was finished being laid out.

And as far as complacency goes... You do need to have some of that, this isn't some democracy or something... It's a game, made by a team, and it's their right to choose what actions they take. While they do want to suit their players, ultimately it's still their vision and they call the shots. They will not please everyone, so I think it's best if they just make the game they wanna make, and people who share their idea of a good game will play it. If you don't share that idea, don't be complacent about it... But don't nag them to change either... Just find another game that's more suited to you.

So yes, I'm fine with things as they stand. You just have to realize that what's right in front of your face isn't necessarily the entire picture. I've seen a lot of people complaining that basically seem to think that way though. And again, if someone is not okay with the way SE is phasing in content, they can quit and come back in a year when there is more here. SE decided to open the game now, unfinished as it may be, because a lot of people want to experience it and go along for the ride, myself included... I don't see any reason for people who don't want to play yet complaining about other people getting a chance to if they want to.
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#19 Sep 30 2010 at 8:19 PM Rating: Decent
Edited by bsphil
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HallieXIV wrote:
bsphil wrote:
Tiger228 wrote:
I have some good news for you OP. Nobody is forcing you to play this game! :D

If you think it's unfinished, go away and come back once you decide it's finished. If you don't like it, well, then just go away.

I'm enjoying the game a lot, and even with it's current bare bones build, it's a lot better than any other mmo on the market right now, at least imo. If you don't want to play it, stop making excuses about people making excuses and just quit.
While I absolutely agree that if you don't like the game as it stands right now you should NOT be paying money for it, I'll say that you should also be voicing your opinion as well. Minimizing negative comments only goes against your interests, by (admittedly slowly) sending the message that you're ok with the system as it stands. Complacency doesn't lead to action.
My only concern is that many (not all) of the complaints are actually a matter of personal choice. I would hate SE to change things because of a vocal minority on internet forums that shout the loudest whilst many of us really like the game.

Like I said, there are issues with the game that we can probably all agree on. And then there are personal preferences. Unfortunately a 5 minute review of these boards shows that most people cant tell the difference between the two.
...that's one way to put it. Yes, it's a personal preference choice, but it's bad enough that people are frustrated to the point of not playing the game because of it. Honestly, I'd like to hear how the game will change for the worse FOR YOU because inventory sorting and keyboard shortcuts for gear/inventory/abilities get added. Not trying to troll or anything, I'm just not seeing how that would tarnish your experience. Worst case scenario for you, it does nothing, and makes a lot more people want to play.
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His Excellency Aethien wrote:
Almalieque wrote:
If no one debated with me, then I wouldn't post here anymore.
Take the hint guys, please take the hint.
gbaji wrote:
I'm not getting my news from anywhere Joph.
#20 Sep 30 2010 at 8:43 PM Rating: Decent
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Sherrick96 wrote:
Why do people keep saying well FFXI had this years after, or they had NMs 2 years later blah blah. So every mmo is allowed to come out unfinished? But wait, it's coming. So you guys are the same people who would except new release movies to come out on VHS then later on DVD. Would you keep saying, "All movies start off like this, it's ok!" The excuses are getting lame, its 2010 MMOs are evolving, you keep talking in the past.


That's pretty funny, I like how you "compare" MMORGP to a movie. SE is not giving excuses and there are tons of people who are happy with the release. At least it's good to know that SE have some people who supported them from the start including myself.
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#21 Sep 30 2010 at 10:01 PM Rating: Decent
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Tiger228 wrote:
And as far as complacency goes... You do need to have some of that, this isn't some democracy or something... It's a game, made by a team, and it's their right to choose what actions they take. While they do want to suit their players, ultimately it's still their vision and they call the shots. They will not please everyone, so I think it's best if they just make the game they wanna make, and people who share their idea of a good game will play it. If you don't share that idea, don't be complacent about it... But don't nag them to change either... Just find another game that's more suited to you.
This would be a solid argument for just about any other developer. SE is a glaring exception in how isolated their dev team is from the players. You have to be extremely vocal to get ANY sort of message to them, and they are very unwilling to change their game to suit an unhappy player base. There needs to be a balance. The devs can't just completely ignore the players just as they can't cave in to every complaint. I argue that the balance is too far towards isolation.

Oh, and I don't want to find another game, because I've been waiting on THIS game. After a couple years of development and teasing the game is finally out and it is in miserable shape for a MMO release, particularly for a company that already has nearly a decade of MMO development experience.



Edited, Sep 30th 2010 11:03pm by bsphil
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His Excellency Aethien wrote:
Almalieque wrote:
If no one debated with me, then I wouldn't post here anymore.
Take the hint guys, please take the hint.
gbaji wrote:
I'm not getting my news from anywhere Joph.
#22hanibalz, Posted: Sep 30 2010 at 10:16 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) A game that is released without the ability to sort your inventory? WoW, oh wait they wanted to beat the cataclysm release....no AH....they wanted to beat the cataclysm release...now does it make sense?
#23 Sep 30 2010 at 11:01 PM Rating: Decent
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bsphil wrote:
HallieXIV wrote:
bsphil wrote:
Tiger228 wrote:
I have some good news for you OP. Nobody is forcing you to play this game! :D

If you think it's unfinished, go away and come back once you decide it's finished. If you don't like it, well, then just go away.

I'm enjoying the game a lot, and even with it's current bare bones build, it's a lot better than any other mmo on the market right now, at least imo. If you don't want to play it, stop making excuses about people making excuses and just quit.
While I absolutely agree that if you don't like the game as it stands right now you should NOT be paying money for it, I'll say that you should also be voicing your opinion as well. Minimizing negative comments only goes against your interests, by (admittedly slowly) sending the message that you're ok with the system as it stands. Complacency doesn't lead to action.
My only concern is that many (not all) of the complaints are actually a matter of personal choice. I would hate SE to change things because of a vocal minority on internet forums that shout the loudest whilst many of us really like the game.

Like I said, there are issues with the game that we can probably all agree on. And then there are personal preferences. Unfortunately a 5 minute review of these boards shows that most people cant tell the difference between the two.
...that's one way to put it. Yes, it's a personal preference choice, but it's bad enough that people are frustrated to the point of not playing the game because of it. Honestly, I'd like to hear how the game will change for the worse FOR YOU because inventory sorting and keyboard shortcuts for gear/inventory/abilities get added. Not trying to troll or anything, I'm just not seeing how that would tarnish your experience. Worst case scenario for you, it does nothing, and makes a lot more people want to play.


Generally speaking your comments are the sort of issues that I think "we can all agree on". Fortunately, these issues are all fairly easily fixed by SE, so easily fixed that I can understand frustration that this is not currently in the game.

Problem is that these are not the only issues being debated on the 1,213 threads on these boards QQ'ing about the game. By way of example.

Mob conning makes the game unplayable because sometimes somthing that cons as easy ends up as a hard fight - lots of complaints about this, i like the unpredictability, as it keeps the player on his toes

Excessive menu screens - I am an old skool (and old in age) RPG player, the menus give the game and RPG feel.

I could go on probably without 50 examples of things that people complain about on these boards that I like. Not saying im right, how can i be it is just a matter of opinion. But that is exactly my point.
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#24 Oct 01 2010 at 12:45 PM Rating: Decent
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Just like ffxi... when retards could host abyssea parties at 30 and be level 65 in 5 hours, the game no longer became enjoyable to me. Haven't played since July.


Really? That would actually make me consider going back to the game. My main beef with the game was that the gameplay was not deep enough to keep playing just one job, but leveling multiple jobs still took an eternity and then you still had merits. If I could have played with multiple jobs that easily, I would have stayed. Rather than being stuck with one 75 and not having the will to level new jobs, I would likely have leveled several jobs.

The XI experience curve was a mistake from the beginning. They tuned it to prevent players from running out of content, but realistically with 20 jobs players were not anywhere even remotely near running out of content.
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#25 Oct 01 2010 at 12:52 PM Rating: Excellent
Sherrick96 wrote:
Why do people keep saying well FFXI had this years after, or they had NMs 2 years later blah blah. So every mmo is allowed to come out unfinished? But wait, it's coming. So you guys are the same people who would except new release movies to come out on VHS then later on DVD. Would you keep saying, "All movies start off like this, it's ok!" The excuses are getting lame, its 2010 MMOs are evolving, you keep talking in the past.


I'm not saying it's right. But it is reality. Not much we can do about it, except band together as an entire mmo-game-playing-world-community and stop buying mmos at launch until they're 'finished' products. Think it's safe to say that's not going to happen. I've been a part of a few launches over the years, and FFXIV is no worse off than any of the others I've seen. Does it make it right for them to release a game with so many problems? No, of course not. Is complaining and getting upset going to do anything? Yes, it'll make you unhappy... maybe others too... and that's about it. Well no, complaints do help things get fixed as well, but yes, it also makes you unhappy and often others too. The alternatives are, settle down, and enjoy the parts of the game that do work, and report bugs in a constructive manner that won't perpetuate feelings of negativity and anger, or cut your losses, and play another mmo that you find acceptable to your standards.

So in a nutshell:

A)Complain, Complain & Complain Some More = Things get fixed, not any faster, and you and others are unhappy as a result
B)Enjoy what works & report bugs constructively = Things get fixed, not any faster, and you and others are content or happy as a result (barring other unmentioned factors)
C)Find another MMO that fits your standards = See A or B above

That's how I see it at least, everyone's gotta make their own choices though.

Edited, Oct 1st 2010 4:01pm by charityneverfaileth
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#26 Oct 01 2010 at 1:16 PM Rating: Good
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So what in essence your saying is, if a game comes out without all of its content and balance changes etc it is not ready for release?

Every MMORPG i've played starts off with it's basics and then they change things or add things it is what keeps it going, if the game had everything already then what is there to look forward to?

I played WoW in beta and then for quite some time religiously and i'll tell you that was a VERY BASIC game to start with and they added crap tonnes of everything up to today, they have changed the entire game many times over, does that mean it wasn't ready for release?

If you want a game that is in your terms "ready for release" don't play an MMORPG it obviously isn't for you


Um....But FFXIV doesnt even have half of the mandatory BASICS that you speak of. I mean no auction house or search function for the retainers in a 2010 MMORPG? That should be in the game and bug free before the game even hits alpha testing! What about mobs having such horrible pathing that they go back to their spawn location and heal to full any time you are slightly elevated or lower than the mob? Again, pathing is something that should be bug free before even alpha testing. How about how you cant see players on the map that are in your party/alliance? That's a BASIC feature that every mmorpg should HAVE.

FFXIV lacks many of the most basic functions that should be mandatory in every mmorpg this day and age. This is why me and many others are saying it isnt ready to be released. But hey, it makes better buisness sense to release PC FFXIV today, rather than in 2011 when it would be directly competing with SW:TOR wouldnt it? The fanboys are defending it like SE wanted to release it today, when in reality they are releasing it today simply to avoid competition with Bioware.

If SW:TOR released today do you really think FFXIV would be able to compete in the Western market? No...it wouldnt lol. Bioware would clean house.

Edited, Oct 1st 2010 3:17pm by Soezu
#27 Oct 01 2010 at 1:32 PM Rating: Good
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charityneverfaileth wrote:
A)Complain, Complain & Complain Some More = Things get fixed, not any faster, and you and others are unhappy as a result
B)Enjoy what works & report bugs constructively = Things get fixed, not any faster, and you and others are content or happy as a result (barring other unmentioned factors)


Methinks you have the causality a little backwards here.

The people who complain are not unhappy because they're complaining, they're complaining because they're unhappy, and ignoring the things that bug them in favor of enjoying the things that work is not going to make them happier. Denial doesn't bring happiness, just a shallow, superficial veneer of it.
#28 Oct 01 2010 at 1:36 PM Rating: Good
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Soezu wrote:

Um....But FFXIV doesnt even have half of the mandatory BASICS that you speak of. I mean no auction house or search function for the retainers in a 2010 MMORPG? That should be in the game and bug free before the game even hits alpha testing! What about mobs having such horrible pathing that they go back to their spawn location and heal to full any time you are slightly elevated or lower than the mob? Again, pathing is something that should be bug free before even alpha testing. How about how you cant see players on the map that are in your party/alliance? That's a BASIC feature that every mmorpg should HAVE.


I agree with you about everything except the Auction House. Not having an auction house is not a bug or an accident - they did it on purpose. You may not like it but it isn't a design flaw the same way that pathing problems are.

I personally like that they are trying a different kind of economy. A lot of people don't, and that is too bad. I think they should have STARTED with categorized wards though. That was a big mistake.

There are a lot of issues with the game as it is but overall, I am happy with it. As for other mmos etc... I really don't have an interest in other mmos... so I am cool with playing through the flaws for awhile. Things may get on my nerves later, and if they do I'll quit the game.

I personally don't see the point of the endless threads of nothing but anger and hate, etc. however. I mean, if you don't like the game, why not spend your time somewhere else or doing something else? This just doesn't seem productive.

charityneverfaileth wrote:


A)Complain, Complain & Complain Some More = Things get fixed, not any faster, and you and others are unhappy as a result
B)Enjoy what works & report bugs constructively = Things get fixed, not any faster, and you and others are content or happy as a result (barring other unmentioned factors)
C)Find another MMO that fits your standards = See A or B above

That's how I see it at least, everyone's gotta make their own choices though.


Yeah I see it that way as well. I mean if people hate the game, why bother with it at all? Why not just go play something else? At the moment it is hard for people who actually wouldn't mind discussing the actual gameplay and strategies etc. to get a word in edgewise because at any given time there are 5-8 threads on the same 3-5 problems bumping everything else off the top page.



Edited, Oct 1st 2010 12:39pm by Olorinus
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#29 Oct 01 2010 at 1:37 PM Rating: Decent
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Olorinus the Vile wrote:
I personally like that they are trying a different kind of economy.
Trying to be different is a valiant effort, but what about the retainer/bazaar system makes it better than an AH?
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Almalieque wrote:
If no one debated with me, then I wouldn't post here anymore.
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#30 Oct 01 2010 at 1:41 PM Rating: Good
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Your argument fails due to the large number of people that will still be paying and playing next month. While most people might have wished it was more refined out the gate.... if they are raking in revenue and people keep playing, then I suppose it was ready for release. Apparently I'm in the minority, having fun with FFXIV. SE typically puts out updates and expansions much faster than I can keep up with, so I'll take the content I have now and jam with it as long as they will let me before expanding the game.
#31 Oct 01 2010 at 1:51 PM Rating: Good
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bsphil wrote:
Olorinus the Vile wrote:
I personally like that they are trying a different kind of economy.
Trying to be different is a valiant effort, but what about the retainer/bazaar system makes it better than an AH?


I get better deals. In FFXI everything was pretty much the same price all the time. Now sometimes I see things for super cheap, sometimes mid, sometimes expensive. I can build a reputation using my bazaar and my retainer. I can actually make money as a crafter. Regional economies are really happening. It is neat. If I want mushrooms, I go to gridania - I find them for cheap. If I want ores I find them in Ul'dah.

In FFXI things pretty much had a set price - and if it ever changed it was in a way that hurt me (my drops became worth less, my armor cost more) - this system gives people an incentive to trade and barter. I've made friends with crafters outside my linkshell to get things done. If there was an AH I would have just bought it there.

I can honestly understand why some people don't like it. I do, for sure. The wards/barter system takes longer - but I enjoy it. I know other people that can't stand the time it takes.

My feeling is that no one ever likes EVERY part of a game. Myself I have never liked quests and missions very much. They always took so long and seemed like nothing but a barrier. Other people loved them. I never liked NM hunting in FFXI - some people lived for it.

So, yeah I could see how it would suck if you don't like the thrill of bargain hunting or if you don't want to craft at all and don't care if crafters can get deals. Maybe I like it just because I am a girl - even if in real life I am not a big shopper, lol.

It is also neat to see a game doing something out of the ordinary. I know a lot of people have countered that you shouldn't change something that works - but the AH in FFXI didn't work in a lot of ways. It was easy to exploit for example.

There are things that need to be fixed about the game overall, uneven experience gain, leveling curves that are too steep, inability to sort the inventory, inability to hire a new retainer, unclassified wards etc. - I just happen to like concept behind the wards and look forward to them getting better.





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#32 Oct 01 2010 at 2:29 PM Rating: Decent
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bsphil wrote:
Olorinus the Vile wrote:
I personally like that they are trying a different kind of economy.
Trying to be different is a valiant effort, but what about the retainer/bazaar system makes it better than an AH?


This is a hard question because any mod to it as it stands i.e. search just makes it a gimp AH I kinda see where this could be cool but I more see where it needed more thought because as I just stated the next step is: well if I'm gonna do X why don't I just make it an AH and save everyone the trouble lol. A for effort W for effect
#33 Oct 01 2010 at 2:34 PM Rating: Good
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Olorinus the Vile wrote:


I can honestly understand why some people don't like it. I do, for sure. The wards/barter system takes longer - but I enjoy it. I know other people that can't stand the time it takes.



In a player economy there are always two players on both sides, even with AH. Whenever you get a good deal somebody else loses and vice versa - somebody gains when you overpay/sell at loss. AH allows for better equalization of gains/losses so nobody suffers too much of a loss and nobody is making crazy profits. The fact that you've got good deals during the first week of the game when everybody does not know true value of any item does not guarantee it will continue the same way in the future. I remember seeing Rabbit Charm in Sandoria's AH history being sold for 10K in 2003. Did not happen any more after that.

Unstable market that you seem to like so much (I doubt you really enjoy clicking through laggy retainers, you don't need to pay $15 for this kind of entertainment) hurts everyone. If you are selling farmed goods - you don't even know how long it will take to sell if ever. Thus you won't be unable to plan you playtime - after your inventory is full you cannot go and farm any more. If you are a crafter you never know what materials you can get at what price and how much of the produced goods you can sell. So you will be waiting to get materials first then to sell, not being able to craft most of the time. If you are just an adventurer - you are already unable to upgrade your equipment and soon you won't be able to get materials for repairs too. You will have to spend hours every day in zombie-mart looking for some rhodium-ingot to fix your sword so you could go and exp/guildleve/whatever S-E plans you to do on higher levels.
#34 Oct 01 2010 at 2:49 PM Rating: Decent
BastokFL wrote:
charityneverfaileth wrote:
A)Complain, Complain & Complain Some More = Things get fixed, not any faster, and you and others are unhappy as a result
B)Enjoy what works & report bugs constructively = Things get fixed, not any faster, and you and others are content or happy as a result (barring other unmentioned factors)


Methinks you have the causality a little backwards here.

The people who complain are not unhappy because they're complaining, they're complaining because they're unhappy, and ignoring the things that bug them in favor of enjoying the things that work is not going to make them happier. Denial doesn't bring happiness, just a shallow, superficial veneer of it.


You are correct, but not in full.

I challenge you to put it to the test. Next time something bothers you, don't swear, curse, badmouth, or otherwise get upset. Calmly rationalize the situation, try to see it from multiple perspectives, and respond, if necessary, with constructive feedback. Do this consistently for 6 months to a year. After that, I guarantee you, the next time that thing happens, it won't make you want to swear, curse, badmouth or otherwise get upset.

On top of that, not only will you feel better and more at peace in life in general, dealing with inconveniences in life with tolerance and general happiness, but the people who you affect in life, which is every single person you ever get in contact with, will generally walk away feeling either as good (or bad) as they were before, or better off.
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#35 Oct 01 2010 at 2:57 PM Rating: Decent
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HachiLihachi wrote:


Unstable market that you seem to like so much (I doubt you really enjoy clicking through laggy retainers, you don't need to pay $15 for this kind of entertainment) hurts everyone. If you are selling farmed goods - you don't even know how long it will take to sell if ever. Thus you won't be unable to plan you playtime - after your inventory is full you cannot go and farm any more. If you are a crafter you never know what materials you can get at what price and how much of the produced goods you can sell. So you will be waiting to get materials first then to sell, not being able to craft most of the time. If you are just an adventurer - you are already unable to upgrade your equipment and soon you won't be able to get materials for repairs too. You will have to spend hours every day in zombie-mart looking for some rhodium-ingot to fix your sword so you could go and exp/guildleve/whatever S-E plans you to do on higher levels.


How do you know what hurts me? You don't. Actually my stuff sells fine - because even without an auction house there is still supply, demand and costs. If you look through bazaars a few times you get a sense of what people are selling things for. If you are a crafter you know how often X material shows up and how much you are willing/can afford to pay for it. If you have something on your bazaar and it doesn't sell, lower the price. If it sells fast you can consider raising it. Even with an AH you never knew how long something would take to sell - there was always uncertainty.

I'm sorry if you don't like the wards. I can understand some of your issues with it. It has some issues I don't like at the moment right now, but the categories will be a big improvement.

Telling me I should hate the wards isn't productive though. Telling me that they hurt me when I am enjoying the feature is futile. It is a matter of personal preference, there is nothing else to it.

I'm not saying you should like them either. I am saying that whether you think an AH is better overall is a matter of opinion, not fact. An AH is definitely faster - but it has less price variability. If things being fast is more important to you than being able to get good deals - then yes, an AH is better for you.

I like that buying and selling are more of a game in their own right now. You do not. That's just the way things are sometimes.
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lolgaxe wrote:
When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#36 Oct 01 2010 at 3:10 PM Rating: Decent
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Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
Movies are "finished". They have a beginning,a middle, and an end.


What about directors cuts and then sequels matrix comes to mind. Took 3 movies spread apart to make the whole story
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#37 Oct 01 2010 at 3:15 PM Rating: Default
BastokFL wrote:
charityneverfaileth wrote:
A)Complain, Complain & Complain Some More = Things get fixed, not any faster, and you and others are unhappy as a result
B)Enjoy what works & report bugs constructively = Things get fixed, not any faster, and you and others are content or happy as a result (barring other unmentioned factors)


Methinks you have the causality a little backwards here.

The people who complain are not unhappy because they're complaining, they're complaining because they're unhappy, and ignoring the things that bug them in favor of enjoying the things that work is not going to make them happier. Denial doesn't bring happiness, just a shallow, superficial veneer of it.


Also, a video game, in essence of what it is, doesn't even have the power to make someone unhappy. Death of a loved one, losing your job, seriousness illness, these things could make someone unhappy. But not having an auction house in a video game? No, if that makes someone unhappy, I'd say they were already unhappy.

But you're right. We shouldn't be in denial. We should face our issues and overcome them. One of the first steps you can take from being unhappy, to being happy, is to change the way you think. And if you complain and complain and complain you will just reinforce those feelings of unhappiness in you and in others. If you consistently make an effort to change those impulses into positive or constructive ones, it is only a matter of time before the way you feel about things that you find inconvenient will change.

So while what I said was immensely simplified, it is nevertheless true, and I garauntee that every person makes a persistant effort in it will notice results from it.

Plus as a community, we will see immediate benefits, because though the person won't feel instantaneously better, he won't be going around making everyone who reads what he writes feel worse.
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#38 Oct 01 2010 at 3:16 PM Rating: Decent
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Olorinus the Vile wrote:

If you look through bazaars a few times you get a sense of what people are selling things for. If you are a crafter you know how often X material shows up and how much you are willing/can afford to pay for it. If you have something on your bazaar and it doesn't sell, lower the price. If it sells fast you can consider raising it. Even with an AH you never knew how long something would take to sell - there was always uncertainty.

If everybody knew the price then it would not be any different than AH, the price would be "fixed" in the same sense you are saying AH price is fixed (even though it's not, nobody prevents you from bidding and selling at the price different than the last in the price history).

Quote:

Telling me I should hate the wards isn't productive though. Telling me that they hurt me when I am enjoying the feature is futile. It is a matter of personal preference, there is nothing else to it.

I am sorry somebody told you so but it was not me. You can enjoy your wards as much as you want, I could not care less even if I tried. The game economy however is orthogonal to your enjoyment of wards i.e. it does not matter if you enjoy them or not - they still negatively affect others enjoyment of the game. In my opinion by the time of PS3 release the only people who are left will be selling/buying stuff from each other's retainers to the amusement of the few who bought the PS3 version despite all the negative reviews.

Edited, Oct 1st 2010 5:17pm by HachiLihachi
#39 Oct 01 2010 at 3:18 PM Rating: Good
Olorinus the Vile wrote:
HachiLihachi wrote:


Unstable market that you seem to like so much (I doubt you really enjoy clicking through laggy retainers, you don't need to pay $15 for this kind of entertainment) hurts everyone. If you are selling farmed goods - you don't even know how long it will take to sell if ever. Thus you won't be unable to plan you playtime - after your inventory is full you cannot go and farm any more. If you are a crafter you never know what materials you can get at what price and how much of the produced goods you can sell. So you will be waiting to get materials first then to sell, not being able to craft most of the time. If you are just an adventurer - you are already unable to upgrade your equipment and soon you won't be able to get materials for repairs too. You will have to spend hours every day in zombie-mart looking for some rhodium-ingot to fix your sword so you could go and exp/guildleve/whatever S-E plans you to do on higher levels.


How do you know what hurts me? You don't. Actually my stuff sells fine - because even without an auction house there is still supply, demand and costs. If you look through bazaars a few times you get a sense of what people are selling things for. If you are a crafter you know how often X material shows up and how much you are willing/can afford to pay for it. If you have something on your bazaar and it doesn't sell, lower the price. If it sells fast you can consider raising it. Even with an AH you never knew how long something would take to sell - there was always uncertainty.

I'm sorry if you don't like the wards. I can understand some of your issues with it. It has some issues I don't like at the moment right now, but the categories will be a big improvement.

Telling me I should hate the wards isn't productive though. Telling me that they hurt me when I am enjoying the feature is futile. It is a matter of personal preference, there is nothing else to it.

I'm not saying you should like them either. I am saying that whether you think an AH is better overall is a matter of opinion, not fact. An AH is definitely faster - but it has less price variability. If things being fast is more important to you than being able to get good deals - then yes, an AH is better for you.

I like that buying and selling are more of a game in their own right now. You do not. That's just the way things are sometimes.


I completely agree with you but SHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH before they burn you as a witch Smiley: tongue
#40 Oct 01 2010 at 3:19 PM Rating: Decent
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3,962 posts
WoW crashed more times in the first week than FFXIV crashed between today and the time the first phase of the closed beta started. MMOs are never done, go away.
#41 Oct 01 2010 at 3:49 PM Rating: Decent
Edited by bsphil
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RyderDecree wrote:
Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
Movies are "finished". They have a beginning,a middle, and an end.


What about directors cuts and then sequels matrix comes to mind. Took 3 movies spread apart to make the whole story
The Matrix WAS done after one movie, they just decided to come back to it and take a huge **** over it and called it The Matrix: Reloaded and The Matrix: Revolution.
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If no one debated with me, then I wouldn't post here anymore.
Take the hint guys, please take the hint.
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#42 Oct 01 2010 at 3:51 PM Rating: Excellent
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723 posts
Lawle wrote:
Yeah I have played the game since ce release and in one week I feel like I have done everything there is to be done. Everything now feels like a chore.


This is exactly how I feel sadly. I want to like the game, but at the moment it's very difficult. I can easily see this being a great game 6 months-2 years down the road. It needs time, just as FFXI did, but at the moment it's sadly nothing special.
#43 Oct 01 2010 at 4:06 PM Rating: Decent
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bsphil wrote:
RyderDecree wrote:
Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
Movies are "finished". They have a beginning,a middle, and an end.


What about directors cuts and then sequels matrix comes to mind. Took 3 movies spread apart to make the whole story
The Matrix WAS done after one movie, they just decided to come back to it and take a huge sh*t over it and called it The Matrix: Reloaded and The Matrix: Revolution.


So sorta like an expansion? Finishing off the movie?
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#44 Oct 01 2010 at 4:18 PM Rating: Decent
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So it's 2010 and MMOS in 2010 should come out completely "finished" because it's 2010? I mean it's 2010, right? In 2010 MMOs are 2010 MMOs.



2010.


In all seriousness, name one. Name just 1 MMO that has been released with no bugs, completely finished. Please, I'd like to know which MMO this is, because the company who made it must be completely freakin' amazing.

*EDIT* In fact, name one single-player game that has been released completely bug-free. That's no flaws at all.

Edited, Oct 1st 2010 6:20pm by CassiusOS

Edited, Oct 1st 2010 6:20pm by CassiusOS
#45 Oct 01 2010 at 6:05 PM Rating: Good
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Been reading plenty of topics like this lately and I've come to some conclusions:

If you think the game is the piece of **** that it is, you're a hater and you shouldn't be playing and you're wrong.

If you stand up for the game, you're a fanboy/fangirl.

Very few people are actually looking at the criticism as constructive criticism. The people who think this game suck have valid points and the reason they are voicing their opinions on a fan forum is because they want to see the game succeed. They paid their money for the game, they want the game to be worth the money they paid. Some people are content with the gigantic sack of turds this game really is and that's fine. Others, however, are not and are voicing their opinions.

Also, to the people who are whining about unfinished MMO's and that the game was just released are just making excuses. Like many people have been saying, MMO's evolve, especially sequels. The point of making a 2nd one is so that you can improve upon your previous design and add some new fundamental things to alter the game from it's predecessor. This game is a fine example of the exact opposite. A lot of the small features from XI would have been great in this game, however they weren't brought over for god knows what reason.

The UI lag I can deal with, not knowing where to go next I can deal with, ****, the new rank exp and physical exp system I can deal with. What I can't deal with is the lack of modern features that have become the norm in MMO's. A lot of the small things from FFXI that worked well were completely left out of FFXIV, not even a hint of them. The targeting system, the chatbox, party commands, /search, map markers on the big map, these are all things that were in XI and worked, they should have been used in FFXIV. Yea, I can wait for those features to hopefully be added, however, I don't feel I should have to because SE said the game was ready for launch when it clearly isn't.

I had such high hopes for the game, it looks gorgeous, but that's all it's really good for.
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#46 Oct 01 2010 at 6:14 PM Rating: Decent
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Fanelan wrote:
Been reading plenty of topics like this lately and I've come to some conclusions:

If you think the game is the piece of sh*t that it is, you're a hater and you shouldn't be playing and you're wrong.

If you stand up for the game, you're a fanboy/fangirl.


And, posting in any thread about this topic regardless of what your opinion is results in a rate down and a flame-filled response. It's because there are so many trolls on both sides of this argument, which begs the question, for those that hate it so much - why are you still here?
#47 Oct 01 2010 at 6:21 PM Rating: Decent
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Fanelan wrote:
Been reading plenty of topics like this lately and I've come to some conclusions:

If you think the game is the piece of sh*t that it is, you're a hater and you shouldn't be playing and you're wrong.

If you stand up for the game, you're a fanboy/fangirl.

Very few people are actually looking at the criticism as constructive criticism. The people who think this game suck have valid points and the reason they are voicing their opinions on a fan forum is because they want to see the game succeed. They paid their money for the game, they want the game to be worth the money they paid. Some people are content with the gigantic sack of turds this game really is and that's fine. Others, however, are not and are voicing their opinions.

Also, to the people who are whining about unfinished MMO's and that the game was just released are just making excuses. Like many people have been saying, MMO's evolve, especially sequels. The point of making a 2nd one is so that you can improve upon your previous design and add some new fundamental things to alter the game from it's predecessor. This game is a fine example of the exact opposite. A lot of the small features from XI would have been great in this game, however they weren't brought over for god knows what reason.

The UI lag I can deal with, not knowing where to go next I can deal with, ****, the new rank exp and physical exp system I can deal with. What I can't deal with is the lack of modern features that have become the norm in MMO's. A lot of the small things from FFXI that worked well were completely left out of FFXIV, not even a hint of them. The targeting system, the chatbox, party commands, /search, map markers on the big map, these are all things that were in XI and worked, they should have been used in FFXIV. Yea, I can wait for those features to hopefully be added, however, I don't feel I should have to because SE said the game was ready for launch when it clearly isn't.

I had such high hopes for the game, it looks gorgeous, but that's all it's really good for.


This
#48 Oct 01 2010 at 8:08 PM Rating: Good
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Fanelan wrote:
Been reading plenty of topics like this lately and I've come to some conclusions:

If you think the game is the piece of sh*t that it is, you're a hater and you shouldn't be playing and you're wrong.

If you stand up for the game, you're a fanboy/fangirl.

Very few people are actually looking at the criticism as constructive criticism. The people who think this game suck have valid points and the reason they are voicing their opinions on a fan forum is because they want to see the game succeed. They paid their money for the game, they want the game to be worth the money they paid. Some people are content with the gigantic sack of turds this game really is and that's fine. Others, however, are not and are voicing their opinions.

Also, to the people who are whining about unfinished MMO's and that the game was just released are just making excuses. Like many people have been saying, MMO's evolve, especially sequels. The point of making a 2nd one is so that you can improve upon your previous design and add some new fundamental things to alter the game from it's predecessor. This game is a fine example of the exact opposite. A lot of the small features from XI would have been great in this game, however they weren't brought over for god knows what reason.

The UI lag I can deal with, not knowing where to go next I can deal with, ****, the new rank exp and physical exp system I can deal with. What I can't deal with is the lack of modern features that have become the norm in MMO's. A lot of the small things from FFXI that worked well were completely left out of FFXIV, not even a hint of them. The targeting system, the chatbox, party commands, /search, map markers on the big map, these are all things that were in XI and worked, they should have been used in FFXIV. Yea, I can wait for those features to hopefully be added, however, I don't feel I should have to because SE said the game was ready for launch when it clearly isn't.

I had such high hopes for the game, it looks gorgeous, but that's all it's really good for.


There's a huge difference between "constructive critisism" and flat out venting (the word i want to use is **********
There are a few posters here that offer a large amount of constructive critisism. Sometimes, to a fault, but it's still constructive (You know who you are :P). You just have to know who is spewing hate, and who is relatively concerned for the state of the game. It isn't too hard to figure out.
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