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Ingredient progression and DoH requirementsFollow

#1 Sep 29 2010 at 10:44 PM Rating: Excellent
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I don't rant often, but I need to vent some frustration and ZAM contains the only people I know who can appreciate what I have to say.

I'm starting to think SE just wanted to make an anti-XI.

I'm attempting to make a Bronze Dagger for my Gladiator. For the life of me I can't understand why a Rank 1 synth requires a Rank 11 synth from the same class. What happened to XI's nice, neat progression? Ore > Ingot > Plate > Etc.

Why can't the blade be rank 5ish and the dagger be 11? Then it could be Ore > Nuggets > Blade > Dagger. Progression!

Oh well, at least I don't have it as bad as carpenter. Nothing like needing a Rank 11 item to make your new rank 7 tool...

I don't expect this game to be an XI-clone. I don't want it to be, else I'd play XI. But some things in this game make me actually stop and say "what the @#%^." There's avoiding being a clone, there's innovating a genre, and then there's just defying logic. SE is really bringing home the bacon for the later of the three.

EDIT: I completely forgot the second point I wanted to make here:

So, I can equip any item to any class at any level and receive a decent boost in stats from it. I can mix and match the vast majority of abilities and spells with little repercussion. With enough preparation, I can even tackle some rather tough foes with easy.
But Gods forfend if I attempt a Rank 11 synth at Rank 10. You'd think I was a Rank 1 attempting to craft the Sword of Ultimate Pwn.

Edited, Sep 30th 2010 12:53am by Sephrick
#2 Sep 29 2010 at 10:48 PM Rating: Good
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SE has never ever followed any form of logic when they make decisions. I actually worry a little bit when something they do makes sense because it's so out of character.
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#3 Sep 29 2010 at 10:53 PM Rating: Excellent
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They really do need to take a second look at some of these recipes. It shouldn't be so difficult to create certain items. My roommate has been leveling various different crafts just to make rank 6 h2h for her pugilist. It would be nice if SE adjusted some of these recipes to make them a bit more accessible.

Edited, Sep 29th 2010 10:54pm by Yujinn
#4 Sep 29 2010 at 10:56 PM Rating: Excellent
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Yujinn wrote:
They really do need to take a second look at some of these recipes. It shouldn't be so difficult to create certain items. My roommate has been leveling various different crafts just to make rank 6 h2h for her pugilist. It would be nice if SE adjusted some of these recipes to make them a bit more accessible.

Edited, Sep 29th 2010 10:54pm by Yujinn



Aye, I'm not saying they need to be made simplistic. But needing to over level 10+ levels to make what I needed those 10 levels ago is ... bizarre.
#5 Sep 29 2010 at 10:56 PM Rating: Good
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If you just need one, may as well just buy one ;/.

I don't play a gladiator, but why a dagger?
#6 Sep 29 2010 at 11:03 PM Rating: Excellent
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Friar Fishraper wrote:
If you just need one, may as well just buy one ;/.

I don't play a gladiator, but why a dagger?



It's the next weapon in line. The next sword doesn't come around till Rank 11 and I had been getting my but kicked a little and needed the boost in damage. But even that Bronze Spatha is the same situation; it takes a Rank 15 Blacksmith to put it together, a Rank 17 Goldsmith to make the grip, a Rank 21 Blacksmith to make the blade, along with a Rank 11 Armorer synth and Rank 3 leathercraft synth.

Specifically, why allow me to assemble at Rank 15 what I can't make the components for till 21? I craft to minimize cost. If I'm going to just buy ingredients, why not save myself the trouble and just buy the end product? By the time I buy all the mats, I'd have paid for it anyway.
#7 Sep 29 2010 at 11:07 PM Rating: Good
Oh I'd buy the end product... if I could find it within 2 hours of scouring and shouting in markets.
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#8 Sep 30 2010 at 12:15 AM Rating: Excellent
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Sephrick wrote:

Oh well, at least I don't have it as bad as carpenter. Nothing like needing a Rank 11 item to make your new rank 7 tool...


Blacksmith rank 7 tool requires Undyed Canvas which is listed on here as a rank 21 weaver craft.
#9 Sep 30 2010 at 3:49 AM Rating: Excellent
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and just to be clear, the undyed canvas is not for sale in ul'dah....it *was* in beta, but not in retail, so going that route doesnt work either.
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#10 Sep 30 2010 at 3:58 AM Rating: Decent
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I talked to a friend about this the other day. While some requirements are absurd (ie. Rank 21 item requirements in Rank 7 TOOL upgrades...), the other side of the coin comes to light with the announced changes to the Market system. I don't think it was ever SE's intention for people to Rank Up every Trade class required to make single items, you would ideally seek out the items you need through Bazaar or Barter. So that Rank 11 material needed for that Rank 7 item? You would ideally find someone who can make it for you, trade you for it, or sell it to you.

I think this issue is definitely going to get a lot better when they finally make the Market Ward Organization changes they announced yesterday.

Sephrick wrote:
But Gods forfend if I attempt a Rank 11 synth at Rank 10. You'd think I was a Rank 1 attempting to craft the Sword of Ultimate Pwn.


SE announced that there is something wrong with Synthesis right now and that it's causing an abnormal rate of synthesis failure. FYI...I'm avoiding crafting right now until they announce it's fixed, I lost a lot of mats yesterday and need to do some Leves for gil and farm more mats now anyways. Smiley: wink
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#11 Sep 30 2010 at 4:07 AM Rating: Good
From the bottom of the crafting ladder looking up, it's a rough ride right now. We don't have the advantage of hundreds of players with months/years invested into the game with crafting classes ranked up and stockpiles of mats offloading bits and pieces for chump change. We have to grind and claw (or pay out the ***) for the higher rank components we need to make the gear, and if you're like me, you've hit a wall with a number of your professions where an upgraded tool would make a big, big difference in your outcomes. (The only DoH tool I've been able to upgrade has been my weaver's needle.) Someone was asking in LS today if anyone could make them a walnut hammer grip so they could upgrade their tools, too. I tried as a rank 10 (11?) carpenter and blew up my only two walnut logs just trying to make the lumber. And let's face it, the "drop rate" on logs is ****. I don't resent SE for it being what it is, but I can go out and do two botany levequests and not see a single log. That means that each log I do get gets lovingly tucked away in the hopes that someday it will become something greater than the sum of its parts.

All I can think of to do right now is strategize. I need Undyed Canvas for some upgrades and I need walnut hammer grips for others. I'm almost to the point now where I can make bronze hammer/axe/whatever heards fairly reliably. So tomorrow is all about weaver and carpenter. I'll be going from city to city when the local levequests reset to tomorrow evening and grabbing whatever rank 10 levequests I can get for both of those classes until I hit my quota. I've got mats made up to make 10 hempen shirts, each requiring three components also made with weaver, so a total of 40 synths at 150-200 skill points each is close to another full rank right there. And I'm at the level where the final combine is something I can hope to HQ without too much difficulty, so the HQs will go into my bazaar and the rest will go to an NPC. I've also got mats on hand for a bunch of square maple shields. Carpentry skill + more goodies for the standard edition crowd to lap up.

Ultimately my focus will be armorsmith with leftover levequests for guild marks (when I get to that point) going to blacksmithing. Gladiator + weapons + armor = glee. In the meantime, we've got months to plug away and progress before we really start feeling like we're falling behind the content curve trying to keep everything up to snuff.
#12 Sep 30 2010 at 4:51 AM Rating: Excellent
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So that Rank 11 material needed for that Rank 7 item? You would ideally find someone who can make it for you, trade you for it, or sell it to you.


i think part of the fustercluck of it all is that nearly EVERY tool requires a higher level material from another craft thats beyond the scope of current tools. take for instance, the undyed canvas cloth. i dont know a single weaver wanting to attempt it at 21 (that is to say, of the two at that level i know) who are willing to do it without either more levels, or the upgraded needle (an iron needle).

of course, for the iron needle, you need higher level blacksmithing, and a higher level smithing tool. which, the first upgrades (birdsbeak and bronze cross-pein hammers) require the undyed canvas cloth. so you have a tool requiring a mat from another profession that requires a higher ranked tool of the first profession to make. its very catch-22, and makes about as much logical sense.
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#13 Sep 30 2010 at 7:30 AM Rating: Decent
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And let's face it, the "drop rate" on logs is sh*t.


I vendor so many logs that the National Park Service paid my house a visit last night concerned about over logging various areas.

I try sell my logs between 2,000-3,000 gold and nobody buys them so I just vendor them. I don't even know what is more rare or not - I get crap all the time and wonder "Hmm, I haven't seen Rattan Lumber before. Are you rare? Vendor." People want me to pay 10-50k+ for the crap they make but wont even buy a log for over vendor price. I've begged people to trade logs for Crystals (use for Alchemy) or for someone to make me the Rank 7 Hatchet (Hi, Carpenters) for a crap load of logs - and not one soul in any city has ever replied to me or bought something from my Bazaar.

Hmph.
#14 Sep 30 2010 at 7:39 AM Rating: Decent
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When you make mac&cheese, do you first start with whole milk that you then curdle into cheese? Do you get some flour and such and make your own pasta?

Guess mac&cheese is a lvl 1 culinarian dish using level 10 ingredients
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#15 Sep 30 2010 at 7:44 AM Rating: Good
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Unfortunately this is an issue of realism vs enjoyability. I think it is fairly realistic for it to be harder to make a blade than assemble the blade and other pieces into a finished weapon, just like its harder for weavers to weave thread into cloth than assemble cloth into clothes (fyi, I can sew something together irl, but damned if I'm going to try to weave my own cloth).

It's realistic, but it's not fun.
#16 Sep 30 2010 at 7:57 AM Rating: Good
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Gadhelyn wrote:
When you make mac&cheese, do you first start with whole milk that you then curdle into cheese? Do you get some flour and such and make your own pasta?

Guess mac&cheese is a lvl 1 culinarian dish using level 10 ingredients


Well, no I don't. But I also don't stab squirrels for a living.
#17 Sep 30 2010 at 8:00 AM Rating: Good
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Well, no I don't. But I also don't stab squirrels for a living.


Speak for yourself.

*spits in a bucket*

Ayup.
#18 Sep 30 2010 at 8:56 AM Rating: Good
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Ilmoran wrote:
Unfortunately this is an issue of realism vs enjoyability. I think it is fairly realistic for it to be harder to make a blade than assemble the blade and other pieces into a finished weapon, just like its harder for weavers to weave thread into cloth than assemble cloth into clothes (fyi, I can sew something together irl, but damned if I'm going to try to weave my own cloth).

It's realistic, but it's not fun.


Well, the "realistic" part is debatable.

For example, attaching the hardware (hilt, guard, pommel, etc.) to a blade is not actually part of a blacksmith's skill (who honestly should be called weaponsmiths; blacksmiths by definition only work with iron and steel). Certainly he is expected to do it before selling his finished goods, but there's nothing "smithy" about it. Anybody who uses weapons is expected to be able to attach and remove the hardware as part of routine maintenance, but that doesn't mean that those end-users are smiths in any meaningful sense of the word.

Similarly, tailors in real life were never expected to weave their own cloth - that's what weavers did. The two were entirely separate professions for the most part; much like how Intel makes products out of silicon, but silicon purification is not part of their own work. Sure, you can lump tailoring and weaving together under the banner of "clothcraft", but any comparison of the skill required between making the cloth and making something out of the cloth is entirely arbitrary.

In short, the crafting and gathering professions are not in the least realistic, because each one is a hodgepodge of totally different skills that are only thematically related, so justifying any aspect of the crafting system on grounds of realism is a non-starter.
#19 Sep 30 2010 at 9:03 AM Rating: Decent
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People want to be self sufficient and I think it is really killing some. I tried it, it was crazy, each new item I wanted to make I learned of a new craft I would need to level up. Nearly all of them work off each other.

So, instead, I have just been reaching out to other crafters and getting the items made from them. In return I supply them with extra materials they need that I don't, or I craft items for them that they need.

We should all rely more heavily on each other than try to be a one man manufacturing company.
#20 Sep 30 2010 at 9:24 AM Rating: Decent
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The current progression of components/final products definitely needs some work, but i think some of the failure rates are artificial...

SE has also inadvertently screwed up the success calculations as per
Regarding a Synthesis Issue (Sep. 29)

Its a good start and i love the crafting system here but this needs to be looked at.
Especially failing to make stuff that's at or bellow rank.

As for being self sufficient, it takes patience and dedication but unlike most other mmos that limit professions and classes to one or two you actually can be fully self sufficient here.. which is a huge bonus in my view. If they would just address the progression difficulties and it would be perfect.


{Edited as i forgot to comment on the self sufficient aspects of the thread}

Edited, Sep 30th 2010 11:33am by Vladislaus
#21 Sep 30 2010 at 9:27 AM Rating: Good
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You can be self-sufficient, but it takes a lot of time, patience, and inventory space. As it is, I've been focusing on Weaver, Leatherworking, and Armorer in a hope to make my own gear, but have leveled Alchemy, Smithing, Mining, Goldsmithing, and Carpenter in the process just trying to make my own sub-combines.

Once the market wards get organized, it's a step in the right direction to reduce the difficulty in finding the materials. This is compounded with the "new-ness" of the game and materials not only being in short supply, but people aren't giving them up because:

A) They have no reason to, it's hit-or-miss that your retainer gets visited.
B) Because of "A", people are simply trying to do it themselves.

Once the wards are organized, people are going to probably notice their retainers emptying a lot faster and gil coming in. This, I think, will cause a domino effect where people in certain classes are going to realize the validity to making only the items that are easier (ie. Weavers will supply cloth, canvas, and yarn...Miners ore, etc.). Because of this, "getting" mats will be easier because in time, the system will right itself to how I think SE envisioned it in the first place.

Give it time...I think the market change is going to have a fairly huge impact.
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#22 Sep 30 2010 at 2:25 PM Rating: Decent
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Sephrick wrote:
Gadhelyn wrote:
When you make mac&cheese, do you first start with whole milk that you then curdle into cheese? Do you get some flour and such and make your own pasta?

Guess mac&cheese is a lvl 1 culinarian dish using level 10 ingredients


Well, no I don't. But I also don't stab squirrels for a living.


A specious analogy with no relevance to my example. You do work for a living, I'm assuming. Do people at McDonalds grow the potatoes to make the fries? Do people in an office first make the paper they have to use?

Realism doesn't mean that the magic's real, or suggest that people will go fight behemoths for their day-job. In an RPG context, realism means that the smaller workings of the world you play in make sense in the laws of the world. If all of a sudden gravity shifts directions without any good reason, then it's not believable. You have to think of it this way: to us it's a game, but to our characters it's normal life. SE designed this game to have a believable crafting system, following the example I gave. Whether you, the player, does or does not do something everyday doesn't mean that your character's experience is the same as yours.

Eorzea feels real. I know it's not real, we can't have airships running on crystals, aetheryte nodes and such, but the way it's woven into the context of the world it makes sense for that world. It's kind of like watching Battlestar Galactica or Star Trek or Star Wars, sure lightsabers or FTL/warp drive seem far-fetched and unreal, but in the context of the world presented in those shows, it makes sense.

I think the best example of something feeling realistic to those in the fiction world is in the Firefly episode Objects in Space. Wash was making fun of the notion of River being a psychic, saying that it sounds like science fiction. Zoe pointed out "You're living in a space ship", with Wash replied "So?" Space ships in sci-fi are normal to the characters there.

The sign that writers and developers have done a good job developing a world is that once the weird, unrealistic things become just part of the world, understandable in that frame of reference, that we can see it actually happening and see ourselves in such a world. Who here wouldn't want to own a lightsaber or jump the Galactica?
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#23 Sep 30 2010 at 2:34 PM Rating: Decent
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A specious analogy with no relevance to my example. You do work for a living, I'm assuming. Do people at McDonalds grow the potatoes to make the fries? Do people in an office first make the paper they have to use?

Realism doesn't mean that the magic's real, or suggest that people will go fight behemoths for their day-job. In an RPG context, realism means that the smaller workings of the world you play in make sense in the laws of the world. If all of a sudden gravity shifts directions without any good reason, then it's not believable. You have to think of it this way: to us it's a game, but to our characters it's normal life. SE designed this game to have a believable crafting system, following the example I gave. Whether you, the player, does or does not do something everyday doesn't mean that your character's experience is the same as yours.

Eorzea feels real. I know it's not real, we can't have airships running on crystals, aetheryte nodes and such, but the way it's woven into the context of the world it makes sense for that world. It's kind of like watching Battlestar Galactica or Star Trek or Star Wars, sure lightsabers or FTL/warp drive seem far-fetched and unreal, but in the context of the world presented in those shows, it makes sense.

I think the best example of something feeling realistic to those in the fiction world is in the Firefly episode Objects in Space. Wash was making fun of the notion of River being a psychic, saying that it sounds like science fiction. Zoe pointed out "You're living in a space ship", with Wash replied "So?" Space ships in sci-fi are normal to the characters there.

The sign that writers and developers have done a good job developing a world is that once the weird, unrealistic things become just part of the world, understandable in that frame of reference, that we can see it actually happening and see ourselves in such a world. Who here wouldn't want to own a lightsaber or jump the Galactica?
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*ducks*

WOOSH!
#24 Sep 30 2010 at 4:50 PM Rating: Decent
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EmotionBlues wrote:



*ducks*

WOOSH!


Huh? Went over the head?

Maybe I should pare down my posts.

Paraphrase: realistic things makes game feel realistic.

Edited, Sep 30th 2010 5:53pm by Gadhelyn
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#25 Sep 30 2010 at 5:02 PM Rating: Good
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Gadhelyn wrote:
Sephrick wrote:
Gadhelyn wrote:
When you make mac&cheese, do you first start with whole milk that you then curdle into cheese? Do you get some flour and such and make your own pasta?

Guess mac&cheese is a lvl 1 culinarian dish using level 10 ingredients


Well, no I don't. But I also don't stab squirrels for a living.


A specious analogy with no relevance to my example. You do work for a living, I'm assuming. Do people at McDonalds grow the potatoes to make the fries? Do people in an office first make the paper they have to use?

Realism doesn't mean that the magic's real, or suggest that people will go fight behemoths for their day-job. In an RPG context, realism means that the smaller workings of the world you play in make sense in the laws of the world. If all of a sudden gravity shifts directions without any good reason, then it's not believable. You have to think of it this way: to us it's a game, but to our characters it's normal life. SE designed this game to have a believable crafting system, following the example I gave. Whether you, the player, does or does not do something everyday doesn't mean that your character's experience is the same as yours.

Eorzea feels real. I know it's not real, we can't have airships running on crystals, aetheryte nodes and such, but the way it's woven into the context of the world it makes sense for that world. It's kind of like watching Battlestar Galactica or Star Trek or Star Wars, sure lightsabers or FTL/warp drive seem far-fetched and unreal, but in the context of the world presented in those shows, it makes sense.

I think the best example of something feeling realistic to those in the fiction world is in the Firefly episode Objects in Space. Wash was making fun of the notion of River being a psychic, saying that it sounds like science fiction. Zoe pointed out "You're living in a space ship", with Wash replied "So?" Space ships in sci-fi are normal to the characters there.

The sign that writers and developers have done a good job developing a world is that once the weird, unrealistic things become just part of the world, understandable in that frame of reference, that we can see it actually happening and see ourselves in such a world. Who here wouldn't want to own a lightsaber or jump the Galactica?



Slow down there, college kid.

Nothing in what you just said pertains to my original point. My point was to say there needs to be a natural progression of creation. The blacksmith refines the ore into nuggets, then smelts the nugget into a blade. The carpenter cut the logs into lumber, then turns a piece of that lumber into a handle. Then those pieces come together at a higher level to create an end product.

A logical progression that makes sense for a video game based around character development.

But in SE's design, to use your example, we build the lightsaber before ever crafting the laser. It's not a matter of relative reality, but a matter of playability. Everyone is waiting on everyone else to be a higher level so they can get the one piece the need to progress themselves. It's somewhat of a logical loophole. To make y item, need x item from Billy. But to make x item, Billy needs y item from me. So instead we have to lumber up in mediocrity until we're high enough to make ourselves a little less mediocre. Because at Rank 20, we can't make Rank 20 items, no. We need to be Rank 40 for that.

I know that in 6 months, those that come in with the PS3 crowd will benefit from our pioneering. And I'm not asking that things be made stupidly easy, just that there should be a reasonable flow.
#26 Sep 30 2010 at 5:11 PM Rating: Good
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Sephrick wrote:
I don't rant often, but I need to vent some frustration and ZAM contains the only people I know who can appreciate what I have to say.

I'm starting to think SE just wanted to make an anti-XI.

I'm attempting to make a Bronze Dagger for my Gladiator. For the life of me I can't understand why a Rank 1 synth requires a Rank 11 synth from the same class. What happened to XI's nice, neat progression? Ore > Ingot > Plate > Etc.

Why can't the blade be rank 5ish and the dagger be 11? Then it could be Ore > Nuggets > Blade > Dagger. Progression!

Oh well, at least I don't have it as bad as carpenter. Nothing like needing a Rank 11 item to make your new rank 7 tool...

I don't expect this game to be an XI-clone. I don't want it to be, else I'd play XI. But some things in this game make me actually stop and say "what the @#%^." There's avoiding being a clone, there's innovating a genre, and then there's just defying logic. SE is really bringing home the bacon for the later of the three.

EDIT: I completely forgot the second point I wanted to make here:

So, I can equip any item to any class at any level and receive a decent boost in stats from it. I can mix and match the vast majority of abilities and spells with little repercussion. With enough preparation, I can even tackle some rather tough foes with easy.
But Gods forfend if I attempt a Rank 11 synth at Rank 10. You'd think I was a Rank 1 attempting to craft the Sword of Ultimate Pwn.

Edited, Sep 30th 2010 12:53am by Sephrick


I agree with you 100%

AND nevermind being rank 10 - try being rank 12 and being unable to make a rank 11 synth halfway. OH AND - Don't forget the saw grip may only be rank 11 - but to make the ash lumber to make the saw grip you need to be higher than rank 12 - since I couldn't even get to 1/3 trying do do it on rank 12.

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#27 Sep 30 2010 at 5:16 PM Rating: Default
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Try reading my first post in which I point out most people who make mac&cheese don't start by making the cheese. You buy cheese from people who make it for a living.

And it's grad student, not college kid.
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#28 Sep 30 2010 at 5:22 PM Rating: Default
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EmotionBlues wrote:
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And let's face it, the "drop rate" on logs is sh*t.


I vendor so many logs that the National Park Service paid my house a visit last night concerned about over logging various areas.

I try sell my logs between 2,000-3,000 gold and nobody buys them so I just vendor them. I don't even know what is more rare or not - I get crap all the time and wonder "Hmm, I haven't seen Rattan Lumber before. Are you rare? Vendor." People want me to pay 10-50k+ for the crap they make but wont even buy a log for over vendor price. I've begged people to trade logs for Crystals (use for Alchemy) or for someone to make me the Rank 7 Hatchet (Hi, Carpenters) for a crap load of logs - and not one soul in any city has ever replied to me or bought something from my Bazaar.

Hmph.


Why would people pay more than they can get it from a vendor? And your log isn't worth the price you are putting it up for. Unless I need it for something specific I won't pay more than 1K for a log. My LS mates give me tons of logs - and I give them things I don't need. Why would I pay you 3K for something that cost you nothing? the 10-50K "crap" people are making actually cost money to make.
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#29 Sep 30 2010 at 6:02 PM Rating: Decent
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It seems like finished products tend to be slightly easier than the components. Given that a failed synth loses all the materials this seems intended to counteract that some.

If a synth is, say, rank 5 and takes rank 8 mats from the same profession, it seems they intend the final synth to be attempted at rank 8.
#30 Sep 30 2010 at 6:04 PM Rating: Decent
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Why would people pay more than they can get it from a vendor? And your log isn't worth the price you are putting it up for. Unless I need it for something specific I won't pay more than 1K for a log. My LS mates give me tons of logs - and I give them things I don't need. Why would I pay you 3K for something that cost you nothing? the 10-50K "crap" people are making actually cost money to make.


What vendor is selling Oak, Chestnut, Walnut, Willow, Ash, Maple and Mahogoney logs for under 3k? I have Mahogoney up for 5k as my highest.

Can you please link me or show me? I don't feel like looking because - while there might be one for basic logs - nobody is selling Grade 2-3 stuff cheaper then that.

Nice mini-counter-rant thing comment though?

Edit:

I looked them all up in the database - and I'm sure the prices are wrong but at least I confirmed they are sold by vendors.

But if those prices are right - better find my Retainer and rob him quick. I bazaar as many as possible to encourage growth and more crafters so I can get crap made - but the rest end up vendored.



Edited, Sep 30th 2010 8:05pm by EmotionBlues

Edited, Sep 30th 2010 8:09pm by EmotionBlues
#31 Sep 30 2010 at 6:22 PM Rating: Decent
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EmotionBlues wrote:
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A specious analogy with no relevance to my example. You do work for a living, I'm assuming. Do people at McDonalds grow the potatoes to make the fries? Do people in an office first make the paper they have to use?

Realism doesn't mean that the magic's real, or suggest that people will go fight behemoths for their day-job. In an RPG context, realism means that the smaller workings of the world you play in make sense in the laws of the world. If all of a sudden gravity shifts directions without any good reason, then it's not believable. You have to think of it this way: to us it's a game, but to our characters it's normal life. SE designed this game to have a believable crafting system, following the example I gave. Whether you, the player, does or does not do something everyday doesn't mean that your character's experience is the same as yours.

Eorzea feels real. I know it's not real, we can't have airships running on crystals, aetheryte nodes and such, but the way it's woven into the context of the world it makes sense for that world. It's kind of like watching Battlestar Galactica or Star Trek or Star Wars, sure lightsabers or FTL/warp drive seem far-fetched and unreal, but in the context of the world presented in those shows, it makes sense.

I think the best example of something feeling realistic to those in the fiction world is in the Firefly episode Objects in Space. Wash was making fun of the notion of River being a psychic, saying that it sounds like science fiction. Zoe pointed out "You're living in a space ship", with Wash replied "So?" Space ships in sci-fi are normal to the characters there.

The sign that writers and developers have done a good job developing a world is that once the weird, unrealistic things become just part of the world, understandable in that frame of reference, that we can see it actually happening and see ourselves in such a world. Who here wouldn't want to own a lightsaber or jump the Galactica?
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*ducks*

WOOSH!


In a literary context, it is called "suspension of disbelief".

I can suspend my disbelief to feel a part of the world of Eorzea. When playing the game, I know that it is a game but if the game can create a high level of immersion - you "feel" part of the game. SE have traditionally been very good at suspension of disbelief though the creation of a consistent game world with elements of real life mixed with fantasy elements.

Put simply, do you feel immersed in the game? I do - far more so than in other MMO's
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#32 Sep 30 2010 at 6:25 PM Rating: Decent
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EmotionBlues wrote:
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Why would people pay more than they can get it from a vendor? And your log isn't worth the price you are putting it up for. Unless I need it for something specific I won't pay more than 1K for a log. My LS mates give me tons of logs - and I give them things I don't need. Why would I pay you 3K for something that cost you nothing? the 10-50K "crap" people are making actually cost money to make.


What vendor is selling Oak, Chestnut, Walnut, Willow, Ash, Maple and Mahogoney logs for under 3k? I have Mahogoney up for 5k as my highest.

Can you please link me or show me? I don't feel like looking because - while there might be one for basic logs - nobody is selling Grade 2-3 stuff cheaper then that.

Nice mini-counter-rant thing comment though?

Edit:

I looked them all up in the database - and I'm sure the prices are wrong but at least I confirmed they are sold by vendors.

But if those prices are right - better find my Retainer and rob him quick. I bazaar as many as possible to encourage growth and more crafters so I can get crap made - but the rest end up vendored.



Edited, Sep 30th 2010 8:05pm by EmotionBlues

Edited, Sep 30th 2010 8:09pm by EmotionBlues


Crafters cant have it both ways (and I am a crafter).

They want to buy mats for next to nothing or complain that they cant buy mats. Then they want to sell their crafted items for the fortune or complain that they cant sell them.

If they were a little more realistic, paid a fair price for mats and charged a fair price for crafted items then everyone in the market would benefit. At the moment, DoL are screwed down by crafters, and endusers are also screwed by crafters and the crafters are still complaining.
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#33 Sep 30 2010 at 6:41 PM Rating: Decent
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They want to buy mats for next to nothing or complain that they cant buy mats. Then they want to sell their crafted items for the fortune or complain that they cant sell them.


Sorta having to do this with: There's going to be a LOT of Gil in the economy very soon. It's only just begun. As more people approach Rank 20+ Leves and higher - the Gil is just going to climb and climb. Repairs are really smart actually - because repairing good gear will cost impatient/time limited people to blow 50k at the repair person (probably way more I imagine in the future) to keep their stuff going.

Even without exchanging leves I'm getting like 15-17k Gil per + nice items sometimes as a Botanist.
#34 Sep 30 2010 at 7:15 PM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
A logical progression that makes sense for a video game based around character development.


this is the core of it, and something that ff14 lacks.

it isnt about realism, or exchanging goods with fellow crafters....its about playability and enjoyment as a game. the assumption that several people in this thread make, that the people complaining arent being "communal" enough by bartering for goods with other crafters....well, its wrong to put it plainly. id wager that every person in this thread who has problems with the progression in this system has run into the same problem i have. that is to say, they see the materials they need for an item, so talk to a friend or other crafter who has that craft, only to find out said material is beyond the level and scope of that crafter. perhaps that friend or crafter colleague needs an item that *you* can make, but its such higher level that you cant yet make it.

case in point is my above example about weaving and smithing. smithing is a BIG choke point ive noticed, because 5x bronze nuggets allows you to make about six different hammer heads for six different tools, all of which are upgrades for various professions (armorer, carpentry, smithing, goldsmithing, leatherworking). but making these items requires a higher skill than youd expect. the solution offered by a number of people? upgrade your tools.

so you go out and find what you need to upgrade your tools, and even make most of it (or have it made and barter for it as i did with parts). but then you stumble upon that *ONE* anomalous ingredient that requires another crafter to make thats about 8-10 ranks above the "optimal" rank for the item youre making.

lemme sum up real fast....you have an item, optimal rank X, and it requires another item, optimal rank X+8 from another crafter to make.

where is the sense in that? where is the steady, lateral progression? it would make sense if a smith needed the items from, say, a rank 12 weaver. smiths can make the new weaver needle no problem by rank 8 or 9, and then weavers can easily take that to the mid-teens. they then in turn could provide the smiths with the materials they needed.

carpentry is another fustercluck, with some materials for tools being 5-6 ranks above the tool they make, and only carpentry can make said materials.

this leaves crafters with the only other option, as noted above; grinding away in mediocrity. anything that involves "grinding" that doesnt use a mortar and pestle + alchemy is inherently not fun. having to spam 1x bronze nugget over and over and over again, making god knows how many fish hooks is *not* fun. you cant even pass it off as "youve gotta work for your success" as i know some people will. we're in the process of building an economy people! economies in games designed for fun and pleasure should not be build on the corpses of a hundred thousand bronze fish hooks and bone rings.

there needs to be better logical progression, bottom line. no more requiring materials 8+ ranks higher than the target finished product.
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#35 Sep 30 2010 at 7:39 PM Rating: Good
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I like the current progression. It may make things a bit harder starting out, but later in the game it will keep a fairly steady demand for parts and components rather than the market eventually being reduced to only finished items.
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