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#1 Sep 30 2010 at 10:45 AM Rating: Good
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From the experiences I've had in 10+ leves it seems you are always fighting two or more monsters and that people aren't holding hate very well so I thought I'd point out a few things.

Glad - > Provoke provoke type skill at lvl 10
PUG -> Taunt provoke like skill at lvl 10
Mar ->Disorient Provoke like skill @ lvl 18 (!)

Glad makes the best tank because they can wear heavy armor and use a one handed weapon and shield. Since you are fighting more than one monster you can either have one tank for each monster and have them keep the hate really well, or you can have one tank and have them taunt one monster and provoke the other. I doubt anyone trying to tank has disorient AND taunt and Provoke yet, but having provoke and taunt should at least be obtained for group tanking. Also, monsters seem to HATE healing and buffing... so you could throw in a CON lvl 4 to heal yourself some during battle.

Now, the healer should stand between the two tanks (if there are two) and next to the tank (if there is one) so his heals can hit others if they take any damage, which they shouldn't if the tank doesn't lose hate.

Almost forgot... for a tank, upgrading your armor is essential. Don't join a 5 star level 20 leve with Weathered equipment on and try to tank...

Thats my 2 cents, anyone else feel free to add or disagree.
#2 Sep 30 2010 at 10:59 AM Rating: Decent
shadowofclarence wrote:
From the experiences I've had in 10+ leves it seems you are always fighting two or more monsters and that people aren't holding hate very well so I thought I'd point out a few things.

Glad - > Provoke provoke type skill at lvl 10
PUG -> Taunt provoke like skill at lvl 10
Mar ->Disorient Provoke like skill @ lvl 18 (!)

Glad makes the best tank because they can wear heavy armor and use a one handed weapon and shield. Since you are fighting more than one monster you can either have one tank for each monster and have them keep the hate really well, or you can have one tank and have them taunt one monster and provoke the other. I doubt anyone trying to tank has disorient AND taunt and Provoke yet, but having provoke and taunt should at least be obtained for group tanking. Also, monsters seem to HATE healing and buffing... so you could throw in a CON lvl 4 to heal yourself some during battle.

Now, the healer should stand between the two tanks (if there are two) and next to the tank (if there is one) so his heals can hit others if they take any damage, which they shouldn't if the tank doesn't lose hate.

Almost forgot... for a tank, upgrading your armor is essential. Don't join a 5 star level 20 leve with Weathered equipment on and try to tank...

Thats my 2 cents, anyone else feel free to add or disagree.


Inaccurate information.

For starters, gladiator is not the "best" tank. They're a situational tank. Their strength (at least at lower levels) is higher mitigation of physical damage than the other two tank classes and very good single target enmity generation thanks to Phalanx. Marauders have lower physical mitigation (but higher health) and outstrip both gladiator and pugilist for multi-target threat. Pugilists are "evasion tanks"...what they lack in mitigation they make up for by evading more hits than gladiator or marauder.

Taunt and Provoke are too stamina intensive to be used as part of a threat rotation. Using both, one after the other, would cost you in the neighborhood of 80% of your stamina. They also both have 20 second cooldowns and only force the mob to attack you for ~5 seconds, meaning that if either of those mobs peel off once the Provoked effect wears off, you're boned. There's an ongoing debate right now about the benefit of using Taunt and/or Provoke as part of a standard enmity rotation. Common wisdom is prevailing and most tanks are realizing that they are best used selectively. Tanking classes get other tools as they progress for enmity generation that don't rely on draining your stamina and sacrificing your cooldowns to front-load enmity.
#3 Sep 30 2010 at 11:04 AM Rating: Good
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The One and Only Aurelius wrote:
shadowofclarence wrote:
From the experiences I've had in 10+ leves it seems you are always fighting two or more monsters and that people aren't holding hate very well so I thought I'd point out a few things.

Glad - > Provoke provoke type skill at lvl 10
PUG -> Taunt provoke like skill at lvl 10
Mar ->Disorient Provoke like skill @ lvl 18 (!)

Glad makes the best tank because they can wear heavy armor and use a one handed weapon and shield. Since you are fighting more than one monster you can either have one tank for each monster and have them keep the hate really well, or you can have one tank and have them taunt one monster and provoke the other. I doubt anyone trying to tank has disorient AND taunt and Provoke yet, but having provoke and taunt should at least be obtained for group tanking. Also, monsters seem to HATE healing and buffing... so you could throw in a CON lvl 4 to heal yourself some during battle.

Now, the healer should stand between the two tanks (if there are two) and next to the tank (if there is one) so his heals can hit others if they take any damage, which they shouldn't if the tank doesn't lose hate.

Almost forgot... for a tank, upgrading your armor is essential. Don't join a 5 star level 20 leve with Weathered equipment on and try to tank...

Thats my 2 cents, anyone else feel free to add or disagree.


Inaccurate information.

For starters, gladiator is not the "best" tank. They're a situational tank. Their strength (at least at lower levels) is higher mitigation of physical damage than the other two tank classes and very good single target enmity generation thanks to Phalanx. Marauders have lower physical mitigation (but higher health) and outstrip both gladiator and pugilist for multi-target threat. Pugilists are "evasion tanks"...what they lack in mitigation they make up for by evading more hits than gladiator or marauder.

Taunt and Provoke are too stamina intensive to be used as part of a threat rotation. Using both, one after the other, would cost you in the neighborhood of 80% of your stamina. They also both have 20 second cooldowns and only force the mob to attack you for ~5 seconds, meaning that if either of those mobs peel off once the Provoked effect wears off, you're boned. There's an ongoing debate right now about the benefit of using Taunt and/or Provoke as part of a standard enmity rotation. Common wisdom is prevailing and most tanks are realizing that they are best used selectively. Tanking classes get other tools as they progress for enmity generation that don't rely on draining your stamina and sacrificing your cooldowns to front-load enmity.


Yeah, i'd have to say my MAR is a much better "tank" for most situations. A few of the skills that help me out are Cure, Bloodbath, Defender, Rampart (i have some glad abilities). Also, higher damage output means more enmity generation. MAR also gets enmity building abilities later on.
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#4 Sep 30 2010 at 11:17 AM Rating: Good
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The One and Only Aurelius wrote:

Taunt and Provoke are too stamina intensive to be used as part of a threat rotation. Using both, one after the other, would cost you in the neighborhood of 80% of your stamina. They also both have 20 second cooldowns and only force the mob to attack you for ~5 seconds, meaning that if either of those mobs peel off once the Provoked effect wears off, you're boned. There's an ongoing debate right now about the benefit of using Taunt and/or Provoke as part of a standard enmity rotation. Common wisdom is prevailing and most tanks are realizing that they are best used selectively. Tanking classes get other tools as they progress for enmity generation that don't rely on draining your stamina and sacrificing your cooldowns to front-load enmity.


I have to say as a healer - I dearly appreciate tanks that - uh - tank. Using provoke is part of tanking. It may use stamina but it DOES work to keep hate off of healer-nukers like me. As someone who has duoed a lot with a gladiator - regular use of provoke is extremely beneficial - it allows me to heal and nuke without getting killed - which is very nice. We were grinding something fierce together and regular use of provoke didn't seem to hamper either of us - in fact - it kept us both alive and getting good exp.

Edited, Sep 30th 2010 10:17am by Olorinus
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#5 Sep 30 2010 at 11:24 AM Rating: Default
Teneleven wrote:
Yeah, i'd have to say my MAR is a much better "tank" for most situations. A few of the skills that help me out are Cure, Bloodbath, Defender, Rampart (i have some glad abilities). Also, higher damage output means more enmity generation. MAR also gets enmity building abilities later on.


Don't take this as me implying marauders are not good tanks, but you can't list abilities from other classes and say, "This is what makes marauders better." Take out Cure and Rampart and you're left with Bloodbath (great if you can hit with a WS after using it, thoroughly mediocre if you miss) and Defender. Defender is delicious, and will be even moreso once tanks reach the mid levels and can pick up their basic enmity attacks with guild marks. Defender is what allows Marauders to designate themselves as tanks, much as Phalanx does for Gladiators and Haymaker does for Pugilists. The downside is that it requires the Marauder to remain still, making them the least mobile of the tanking classes if they want to maximize their enmity potential.

If anything, Pugilists are getting a bit hosed in the tanking department now since they don't seem to evade nearly as well as you might want them to in order to use Haymaker as often as, for example, a Gladiator can use Phalanx. It's possible that Haymaker packs a beefy boost to enmity to make up for it, and Pugilist is the most mobile of the tanking classes.
#6 Sep 30 2010 at 11:28 AM Rating: Default
Olorinus the Vile wrote:
The One and Only Aurelius wrote:

Taunt and Provoke are too stamina intensive to be used as part of a threat rotation. Using both, one after the other, would cost you in the neighborhood of 80% of your stamina. They also both have 20 second cooldowns and only force the mob to attack you for ~5 seconds, meaning that if either of those mobs peel off once the Provoked effect wears off, you're boned. There's an ongoing debate right now about the benefit of using Taunt and/or Provoke as part of a standard enmity rotation. Common wisdom is prevailing and most tanks are realizing that they are best used selectively. Tanking classes get other tools as they progress for enmity generation that don't rely on draining your stamina and sacrificing your cooldowns to front-load enmity.


I have to say as a healer - I dearly appreciate tanks that - uh - tank. Using provoke is part of tanking. It may use stamina but it DOES work to keep hate off of healer-nukers like me. As someone who has duoed a lot with a gladiator - regular use of provoke is extremely beneficial - it allows me to heal and nuke without getting killed - which is very nice. We were grinding something fierce together and regular use of provoke didn't seem to hamper either of us - in fact - it kept us both alive and getting good exp.


I'm speaking specifically of using both abilities, which is enormously stamina intensive to do every time they come off cooldown. I often pull with Provoke and by the time the provoked effect has worn off I've usually landed one or two Phalanx to solidify threat and after that it's Phalanx/Spinstroke spammage. The consideration is enmity/stamina, and we don't know the coefficients yet. It stands to reason that if I can build enough TP for two (or more) Phalanx for the same amount of stamina as one Provoke that unless Provoke produces double the enmity of Phalanx + 2 x Light Slash/Stab, it's a sub-par alternative.
#7 Sep 30 2010 at 11:33 AM Rating: Good
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Olorinus the Vile wrote:
The One and Only Aurelius wrote:

Taunt and Provoke are too stamina intensive to be used as part of a threat rotation. Using both, one after the other, would cost you in the neighborhood of 80% of your stamina. They also both have 20 second cooldowns and only force the mob to attack you for ~5 seconds, meaning that if either of those mobs peel off once the Provoked effect wears off, you're boned. There's an ongoing debate right now about the benefit of using Taunt and/or Provoke as part of a standard enmity rotation. Common wisdom is prevailing and most tanks are realizing that they are best used selectively. Tanking classes get other tools as they progress for enmity generation that don't rely on draining your stamina and sacrificing your cooldowns to front-load enmity.


I have to say as a healer - I dearly appreciate tanks that - uh - tank. Using provoke is part of tanking. It may use stamina but it DOES work to keep hate off of healer-nukers like me. As someone who has duoed a lot with a gladiator - regular use of provoke is extremely beneficial - it allows me to heal and nuke without getting killed - which is very nice. We were grinding something fierce together and regular use of provoke didn't seem to hamper either of us - in fact - it kept us both alive and getting good exp.

Edited, Sep 30th 2010 10:17am by Olorinus


Gladiators have emnity issues between ranks 15-20 until they get heavy slash.

If you stand away from the mob provoke can be saved until its needed, mobs dont just turn and hit once agro gets switched, they will turn and wont attack for long enough to get a provoke off.
#8 Sep 30 2010 at 11:33 AM Rating: Decent
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The One and Only Aurelius wrote:

Pugilists are "evasion tanks"...what they lack in mitigation they make up for by evading more hits than gladiator or marauder.


Using PUG as a tank is pretty awful at the moment - their evasion skill is pretty small in the long run. I'm up to rank 32 PUG and even with pretty even skill distribution and the use of evasion skills and light strike I still get hit the grand majority of the time(85+%) when fighting anything 'worth fighting'. Of course if I go back and fight mobs extremely lower then myself I evade a lot more(but so does everyone else, lol) as of right not PUG as an evasion tank really isn't optimal. While, yes, they do evade more often then other classes - regardless of skills set - their 'base evasion' at this given time is not enough to warrant the classification 'evasion tank'. Any class can 'tank' with enough threat generation - and PUG can generate hate[especially if paired with skills from other classes] but they lack the evasion to be properly called an evasion tank, IMHO. Maybe this will change when I get the majority of my guild mark abilities and hit cap - but I highly doubt it.

Edited, Sep 30th 2010 1:35pm by loyaltrekie
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#9 Sep 30 2010 at 11:36 AM Rating: Default
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The One and Only Aurelius wrote:
If anything, Pugilists are getting a bit hosed in the tanking department now since they don't seem to evade nearly as well as you might want them to in order to use Haymaker as often as, for example, a Gladiator can use Phalanx. It's possible that Haymaker packs a beefy boost to enmity to make up for it, and Pugilist is the most mobile of the tanking classes.


Yeah, evasion tanks will most likely rely heavily on having a ton of +evasion gear/jewelry and there's just not a lot (if any) available at the appropriate rank right now so it's kind of hard to say how good pugilist is going to work as an evasion tank.
#10 Sep 30 2010 at 11:37 AM Rating: Good
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I don't understand enmity at all. My GLD friend will run in and start whacking enemies, do around 300 damage. I'll walk up and cast ferocity.. and every enemy in the area turns around and says KILL THE LNC. Sucks so much.
#11 Sep 30 2010 at 11:37 AM Rating: Decent
loyaltrekie wrote:
The One and Only Aurelius wrote:

Pugilists are "evasion tanks"...what they lack in mitigation they make up for by evading more hits than gladiator or marauder.


Using PUG as a tank is pretty awful at the moment - their evasion skill is pretty small in the long run. I'm up to rank 32 PUG and even with pretty even skill distribution and the use of evasion skills and light strike I still get hit the grand majority of the time(85+%) when fighting anything 'worth fighting'. Of course if I go back and fight mobs extremely lower then myself I evade a lot more(but so does everyone else, lol) as of right not PUG as an evasion tank really isn't optimal. While, yes, they do evade more often then other classes - regardless of skills set - their 'base evasion' at this given time is not enough to warrant the classification 'evasion tank'.


I label them as evasion tanks because that's what all of their abilities set them up to be. They're not really living up to it right now, but it seems like they're the class that will time time to fill out as well as close monitoring by SE to make sure that they eventually balance out with the rest of the tanking classes.
#12 Sep 30 2010 at 11:41 AM Rating: Decent
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loyaltrekie wrote:
Using PUG as a tank is pretty awful at the moment - their evasion skill is pretty small in the long run. I'm up to rank 32 PUG and even with pretty even skill distribution and the use of evasion skills and light strike I still get hit the grand majority of the time(85+%) when fighting anything 'worth fighting'. Of course if I go back and fight mobs extremely lower then myself I evade a lot more(but so does everyone else, lol) as of right not PUG as an evasion tank really isn't optimal. While, yes, they do evade more often then other classes - regardless of skills set - their 'base evasion' at this given time is not enough to warrant the classification 'evasion tank'. Any class can 'tank' with enough threat generation - and PUG can generate hate[especially if paired with skills from other classes] but they lack the evasion to be properly called an evasion tank, IMHO. Maybe this will change when I get the majority of my guild mark abilities and hit cap - but I highly doubt it.

Edited, Sep 30th 2010 1:35pm by loyaltrekie

What kind of gear is your 32 pugilist wearing? Do you have rank 40 crafters pumping out gear that is appropriate for your level in all slots? Are you using food at the appropriate level to increase evasion?

Evasion tanking is hard, you can't do it just with class abilities. It may be broken in this game but I don't think anyone is qualified to say so at the moment.

Edited, Sep 30th 2010 1:42pm by Kinbote
#13 Sep 30 2010 at 11:44 AM Rating: Good
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loyaltrekie wrote:
The One and Only Aurelius wrote:

Pugilists are "evasion tanks"...what they lack in mitigation they make up for by evading more hits than gladiator or marauder.


Using PUG as a tank is pretty awful at the moment - their evasion skill is pretty small in the long run. I'm up to rank 32 PUG and even with pretty even skill distribution and the use of evasion skills and light strike I still get hit the grand majority of the time(85+%) when fighting anything 'worth fighting'. Of course if I go back and fight mobs extremely lower then myself I evade a lot more(but so does everyone else, lol) as of right not PUG as an evasion tank really isn't optimal. While, yes, they do evade more often then other classes - regardless of skills set - their 'base evasion' at this given time is not enough to warrant the classification 'evasion tank'. Any class can 'tank' with enough threat generation - and PUG can generate hate[especially if paired with skills from other classes] but they lack the evasion to be properly called an evasion tank, IMHO. Maybe this will change when I get the majority of my guild mark abilities and hit cap - but I highly doubt it.

Edited, Sep 30th 2010 1:35pm by loyaltrekie



Rank...32? Wow.



In any case, I don't see PUG being that viable of a tank as compared to GLD or MAR. Maybe in a pinch, but that's it.
#14 Sep 30 2010 at 12:06 PM Rating: Decent
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They also both have 20 second cooldowns and only force the mob to attack you for ~5 seconds

I have to diagree with this as well. Voke definately has more effect than 5 seconds. When i duo... after my second voke.. the mob is pretty much stuck on me. In my opinion.. if your not voking eveytime the timer is up... your not doing something right.
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#15 Sep 30 2010 at 12:10 PM Rating: Default
jtully wrote:
They also both have 20 second cooldowns and only force the mob to attack you for ~5 seconds

I have to diagree with this as well. Voke definately has more effect than 5 seconds. When i duo... after my second voke.. the mob is pretty much stuck on me. In my opinion.. if your not voking eveytime the timer is up... your not doing something right.


You need to watch your chat log. When you use Provoke, you will get a message in green text to the effect of, "<mob> gains the effect of Provoked." This is the debuff you have placed on the mob that forces it to attack you for a period of time regardless of what the enmity table looks like. A few seconds later, you will see a message saying, "<mob name> is no longer under the effect of Provoked." meaning that if it's still stuck to you, it's because you're highest on the enmity table, not because the "forced" aspect of Provoke is still working.
#16 Sep 30 2010 at 12:10 PM Rating: Decent
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loyaltrekie wrote:

Using PUG as a tank is pretty awful at the moment - their evasion skill is pretty small in the long run. I'm up to rank 32 PUG


How the **** did you get 32 pug? I got surplus at level 17 on my con. I also had vacation all last week and played pretty much non-stop...
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#17 Sep 30 2010 at 12:12 PM Rating: Decent
Olorinus the Vile wrote:
loyaltrekie wrote:

Using PUG as a tank is pretty awful at the moment - their evasion skill is pretty small in the long run. I'm up to rank 32 PUG


How the **** did you get 32 pug? I got surplus at level 17 on my con. I also had vacation all last week and played pretty much non-stop...


Psssst...people like to play e-peen games in new MMOs claiming to have accomplished things that they haven't because they think it makes them look cool. Unless said people can provide a link to a Lodestone character page confirming their claims, it's best to assume all outrageous claims to be *********
#18 Sep 30 2010 at 12:14 PM Rating: Good
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The One and Only Aurelius wrote:
Olorinus the Vile wrote:
loyaltrekie wrote:

Using PUG as a tank is pretty awful at the moment - their evasion skill is pretty small in the long run. I'm up to rank 32 PUG


How the **** did you get 32 pug? I got surplus at level 17 on my con. I also had vacation all last week and played pretty much non-stop...


Psssst...people like to play e-peen games in new MMOs claiming to have accomplished things that they haven't because they think it makes them look cool. Unless said people can provide a link to a Lodestone character page confirming their claims, it's best to assume all outrageous claims to be bullsh*t.


/whispers

Ah. Thanks then.

I usually take people at face value. Silly me.
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#19 Sep 30 2010 at 12:18 PM Rating: Good
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The One and Only Aurelius wrote:
Olorinus the Vile wrote:
loyaltrekie wrote:

Using PUG as a tank is pretty awful at the moment - their evasion skill is pretty small in the long run. I'm up to rank 32 PUG


How the **** did you get 32 pug? I got surplus at level 17 on my con. I also had vacation all last week and played pretty much non-stop...


Psssst...people like to play e-peen games in new MMOs claiming to have accomplished things that they haven't because they think it makes them look cool. Unless said people can provide a link to a Lodestone character page confirming their claims, it's best to assume all outrageous claims to be bullsh*t.



Soo I guess we should say...Lodestone or GTFO?

#20 Sep 30 2010 at 12:19 PM Rating: Default
Kierk wrote:

Soo I guess we should say...Lodestone or GTFO?



I wasn't going to be the first one to say it, but I get the feeling it won't belong before that becomes an expression in common usage ;D
#21 Sep 30 2010 at 12:20 PM Rating: Good
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Or you can just put the link to your Lodestone page in your sig. :)
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#22 Sep 30 2010 at 2:10 PM Rating: Good
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Thanks for the rate downs with me trying to help, keepum comming.

Anyway wouldn't Glad -> Mar if only because Mar uses two handed weapons and Glad can use a shield? That means at the end of the day the Glad will ALWAYS have more defense. Also the ability to block in and of itself shaves off some damage and makes it easier on the healers.


Quote:
You need to watch your chat log. When you use Provoke, you will get a message in green text to the effect of, "<mob> gains the effect of Provoked." This is the debuff you have placed on the mob that forces it to attack you for a period of time regardless of what the enmity table looks like. A few seconds later, you will see a message saying, "<mob name> is no longer under the effect of Provoked." meaning that if it's still stuck to you, it's because you're highest on the enmity table, not because the "forced" aspect of Provoke is still working.


to this, I thought that provoke MADE the monster target you and added enmity. Once the timer runs out that enmity that was generated is still there, it's just no longer FORCED to attack you. Thats how I saw it anyway.

Aside from replying to this thread after work or posting asking question, I will no longer be making any more threads or posting. I will just read the boards. It's incredibly irritating to make threads to try and be helpful to people and get rated down for it. Anything posted by a person especially if started with "from the experiences I've had" should be taken as my opinions from my point of view. I didnt say "this is how the game works" I was providing my opinion. I don't get why you rate someone down for sharing their point of view and using it to start discussions to iron out the kinks to a new system for the game. I'm out, I'm sure someone with more tolerance will be sure to take my place and there are probably plenty of guides anyway.
#23 Sep 30 2010 at 9:44 PM Rating: Decent
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Be careful throwing around the word "best" when regarding a certain class when it comes to anything, it all comes down to the player. Sure there are better situational roles, but there are also always exceptions when the human factor comes into play.
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#24 Sep 30 2010 at 10:20 PM Rating: Excellent
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The One and Only Aurelius wrote:
Olorinus the Vile wrote:
loyaltrekie wrote:

Using PUG as a tank is pretty awful at the moment - their evasion skill is pretty small in the long run. I'm up to rank 32 PUG


How the **** did you get 32 pug? I got surplus at level 17 on my con. I also had vacation all last week and played pretty much non-stop...


Psssst...people like to play e-peen games in new MMOs claiming to have accomplished things that they haven't because they think it makes them look cool. Unless said people can provide a link to a Lodestone character page confirming their claims, it's best to assume all outrageous claims to be bullsh*t.
Blasphemy!!!!! but still my 33 (one more than you) Musketeer can kick your 4$$ one on one.

</sarcasm>

OP: I feel the triad of tanking in this game in low levels is Defender, Provoke and Taunt any Pugilist, Gladiator or Marauder with those 3 can do a respectable job, now the difference seems to be Evade VS Shield VS Marauder's stance, making pugilist a flexible tank, gladiator a sturdy tank, and marauder an offensive tank.

I really feel at this point that for the very purpose of tanking (stay alive and keep the creature attention) Gladiator is the better of the tree.

Ken

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