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#52 Oct 01 2010 at 2:51 PM Rating: Good
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charityneverfaileth wrote:
And by the way, it is communities that kill games, not the devs. Star Wars Galaxies was killed on its forums by haters. Had the haters simply left the game, and not spread their anger and hate, there would still be tens of thousands, if not many more people genuinely enjoy that game right now. Just as an example.


Did you play SW:G? How about after the 'revamp' where everyone was running around as Jedi? I really hope you don't think it was a negative community that killed that game.

Let's pretend that the community did destroy SW:G. How do you explain the success of the 'Game That Will Not Be Named' over the past 6 years when EVERY SINGLE DAY that forum is filled with complaint after complaint after complaint and yet their community seems to be growing?

Edited, Oct 1st 2010 4:53pm by Mentoc

Edited, Oct 1st 2010 4:53pm by Mentoc
#53 Oct 01 2010 at 2:52 PM Rating: Good
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Well is seems they arent exactly in love with FFXI either as the general concesus thinks...
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#54 Oct 01 2010 at 2:56 PM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
You incorrectly assume that the only way to report a problem in the game is to complain until you and everyone else around you is miserable

I'm not sure you have the proper experience dealing with SE as some of the other people posting here. Some of us have been posting about ffxi and its problems for probably about 7-8 years. The ONLY time SE pays attention to anything is if there is a HUGE and usually ANGRY outcry. They never respond to courtesy. If they had they would have fixed the problems in Beta. The only way left is to take a jab every time there is a chance. bsphil is right if we are complacent we are simply giving consent for SE to have a subpar game and us be OK with it.

This game is painfully flawed and even the JP community is bothered by it. SE being SE will probably listen to the JP community as it always has. If the JP community keeps complaining expect things to change.

Quote:
Let's say you have a house, and you haven't mowed the lawn in a while and your front step really needs to be painted, but unfortunately, the disrepair of your home is driving property values down for your neighbors.

20 neighbors come over to you and scream and yell and insult you.
20 other neighbors invite you to a street party, get to know you, feed you, and are generally pleasant, but request that you please paint your front porch.

Which of those things are you likely to do first?

This doesn't apply to our situation. SE are not some neighbors we can wine and dine to get them to listen to us. They are a cold corporation who made a strategically incorrect move in releasing FFXIV before it was ready. Now asking nicely isn't going to get them to change.

Quote:
The only real exception to this is when their mistakes start to hit their pocket books, at that shows up in their accounting statements, not on a forum.

Right and when people read the bad reviews and rantings on the internet they are less likely to play the game. When they read about how upset the community is and how they are canceling their accounts because this game is in such a bad state we get action. Upset players dont equal a successful game.

Quote:
At the end of the day the devs are going to focus things based on what they feel the game needs most at the time. Player input does matter, but they have planned this game to a science. They need our perspectives and input,

WTF kind of perspective do you think you need? The game needs a ******* AH how hard is that to understand. People need to be able to navigate the world in a comfortable way. the UI needs to be fixed there needs to be a auto sort. These aren't mysteries of the MMO world...
Quote:
SE HAS to break the mold to be successful in this game. FFXI is a cult theme. Those who want WoW, should stick with WoW, or play LotR or Star Wars: The Old Republic when that comes out if they are more into one of those themes. Those that like FFXI should keep playing that. I am sure development is not going to stop on that game for a good time yet, especially if people are still playing it. Those who want to try something new, then you are in the right place.

No one is asking for another game we want this game but finished or at least with some basic necessitys.
Quote:
At the end of the day feedback is feedback. The only thing that matters is that the devs receive it. If 100 people think something is a problem, they are going to fix it, no matter how the feedback is presented.

Wrong. Our experience in FFXI proves other wise.
Quote:
And by the way, it is communities that kill games, not the devs. Star Wars Galaxies was killed on its forums by haters. Had the haters simply left the game, and not spread their anger and hate, there would still be tens of thousands, if not many more people genuinely enjoy that game right now. Just as an example.

Wrong what killed Star Wars was the clunky UI the Lag the graphics and them remaking the game 4 or so times...

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#55 Oct 01 2010 at 3:53 PM Rating: Decent
digitalcraft, Goblin in Disguise wrote:
Companies work so hard to not do things like WoW, but they still fail utterly because what brings a game down is not having something thats similar to WoW, but having something terribly badly done. WoW is so successful because when they see an issue, they go, 'hmm, this is an easy way to do it that will be fun!'. Other companies go 'hmm, this is totally unlike how WoW did it, lets go with that!' -- even if it means something the opposite of fun (because WoW did fun, we can't do that!) or the simplest effective route. Fail.

Edited, Oct 1st 2010 1:51pm by digitalcraft


Yeah I think you're right about that. But that doesn't make everything that's different from WoW automatically bad or unusable. I think people are screaming and shouting about an auction house because it's the easiest solution for them, and because they don't want to spend more than a few minutes looking for what they want or selling what they have. That's totally fine, nothing wrong with that at all. I understand why people are irritated, but being persistently negative doesn't help anyone. Thinking that SE is going to fix something because 100 people complained negatively as opposed to 100 people offering constructive criticisms is a huge, huge misconception. You don't even have to change your message at all, just the presentation of it. Whether you say, "I am disappointed with this game, and if things don't improve I will leave", or "This game is a piece of ****, and everyone who likes it is a *expletive deleted*, I'm not playing this piece of **** anymore if things don't improve in a month"... the devs are going to get the message either way.

Like I said, it's ok to not like the game in its current state. And it's good to give criticism. But there is a very big difference between oppressive negativity and constructive criticism, and also, I think SE is much more concerned about how many people are dissatisfied rather than how many times a small number of people who are dissatisfied repeat how dissatisfied they are. Judging from the polls I've seen most people are satisfied, though there are enough people who aren't that I think they should be looking at addressing their issues... which they are by the way.

That's my 2 cents, anyway. Not trying to tell people not to express their concerns with the game, just trying to encourage others to be more constructive and (positive in general) by reasoning with them, that's all.
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#56 Oct 01 2010 at 3:54 PM Rating: Default
Mentoc wrote:
charityneverfaileth wrote:
And by the way, it is communities that kill games, not the devs. Star Wars Galaxies was killed on its forums by haters. Had the haters simply left the game, and not spread their anger and hate, there would still be tens of thousands, if not many more people genuinely enjoy that game right now. Just as an example.


Did you play SW:G? How about after the 'revamp' where everyone was running around as Jedi? I really hope you don't think it was a negative community that killed that game.

Let's pretend that the community did destroy SW:G. How do you explain the success of the 'Game That Will Not Be Named' over the past 6 years when EVERY SINGLE DAY that forum is filled with complaint after complaint after complaint and yet their community seems to be growing?

Edited, Oct 1st 2010 4:53pm by Mentoc

Edited, Oct 1st 2010 4:53pm by Mentoc


I did actually, and I stand by my statement, though I'm not interested in turning this thread into that.

Take care.
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#57 Oct 01 2010 at 3:56 PM Rating: Default
ketrel wrote:
Quote:
You incorrectly assume that the only way to report a problem in the game is to complain until you and everyone else around you is miserable

I'm not sure you have the proper experience dealing with SE as some of the other people posting here. Some of us have been posting about ffxi and its problems for probably about 7-8 years. The ONLY time SE pays attention to anything is if there is a HUGE and usually ANGRY outcry. They never respond to courtesy. If they had they would have fixed the problems in Beta. The only way left is to take a jab every time there is a chance. bsphil is right if we are complacent we are simply giving consent for SE to have a subpar game and us be OK with it.

This game is painfully flawed and even the JP community is bothered by it. SE being SE will probably listen to the JP community as it always has. If the JP community keeps complaining expect things to change.

Quote:
Let's say you have a house, and you haven't mowed the lawn in a while and your front step really needs to be painted, but unfortunately, the disrepair of your home is driving property values down for your neighbors.

20 neighbors come over to you and scream and yell and insult you.
20 other neighbors invite you to a street party, get to know you, feed you, and are generally pleasant, but request that you please paint your front porch.

Which of those things are you likely to do first?

This doesn't apply to our situation. SE are not some neighbors we can wine and dine to get them to listen to us. They are a cold corporation who made a strategically incorrect move in releasing FFXIV before it was ready. Now asking nicely isn't going to get them to change.

Quote:
The only real exception to this is when their mistakes start to hit their pocket books, at that shows up in their accounting statements, not on a forum.

Right and when people read the bad reviews and rantings on the internet they are less likely to play the game. When they read about how upset the community is and how they are canceling their accounts because this game is in such a bad state we get action. Upset players dont equal a successful game.

Quote:
At the end of the day the devs are going to focus things based on what they feel the game needs most at the time. Player input does matter, but they have planned this game to a science. They need our perspectives and input,

WTF kind of perspective do you think you need? The game needs a @#%^ing AH how hard is that to understand. People need to be able to navigate the world in a comfortable way. the UI needs to be fixed there needs to be a auto sort. These aren't mysteries of the MMO world...
Quote:
SE HAS to break the mold to be successful in this game. FFXI is a cult theme. Those who want WoW, should stick with WoW, or play LotR or Star Wars: The Old Republic when that comes out if they are more into one of those themes. Those that like FFXI should keep playing that. I am sure development is not going to stop on that game for a good time yet, especially if people are still playing it. Those who want to try something new, then you are in the right place.

No one is asking for another game we want this game but finished or at least with some basic necessitys.
Quote:
At the end of the day feedback is feedback. The only thing that matters is that the devs receive it. If 100 people think something is a problem, they are going to fix it, no matter how the feedback is presented.

Wrong. Our experience in FFXI proves other wise.
Quote:
And by the way, it is communities that kill games, not the devs. Star Wars Galaxies was killed on its forums by haters. Had the haters simply left the game, and not spread their anger and hate, there would still be tens of thousands, if not many more people genuinely enjoy that game right now. Just as an example.

Wrong what killed Star Wars was the clunky UI the Lag the graphics and them remaking the game 4 or so times...



I've been on forums for a long time, and if there's one thing I've learned, it's never to debate with the guys who cut up your post into small chunks, destroying the context of the overall message, and picking apart every little nuance as if it were a separate argument in and of itself. It's pointless :)
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#58 Oct 01 2010 at 4:02 PM Rating: Good
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32 posts
xGaelx wrote:
I don't get it. If you enjoy the game, who cares what others say?

Edited, Oct 1st 2010 3:06pm by xGaelx


It's an MMO, not a single player game... It's not like you don't have to interact with other people on a daily basis. The game is flawed in plenty of ways... Sure you can still like it, but the majority don't.

No one is going to hate on you for liking the game, it's your opinion... But to say "Who cares what other's say" is stupid, because if people don't like the game, people wont subscribe, SE will start to lose money, and then close the servers (obviously the worst possible scenario.)

Hopefully they get their heads out of their asses and start to develop like other good companies... This doesn't resemble anything like any MMO I have ever played, the menu is laggy, combat is laggy, selling items, interacting, checking things... Guess what.... LAGGY.

They really need a complete overhaul from where they are at, who the **** buys an MMO and gets no quests? I don't want to grind EXP in a group for 30 freaking levels without any quests or rewards. Leve's get old and don't really reward you enough.

I mean I would be alright with the stupid things such as there not being quests right now for how stupid is if everything worked smoothly, but it doesn't. I find myself constantly frustrated transitioning from one thing to another... It literally takes 5-10 minutes to sell your inventory, that is absurd.

So many problems, fix them...
#59 Oct 01 2010 at 4:03 PM Rating: Decent
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charityneverfaileth wrote:


I've been on forums for a long time, and if there's one thing I've learned, it's never to debate with the guys who cut up your post into small chunks, destroying the context of the overall message, and picking apart every little nuance as if it were a separate argument in and of itself. It's pointless :)


You win :)
#60 Oct 01 2010 at 4:14 PM Rating: Excellent
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472 posts
I like the one statement that a Japanese buyer posted. "Extend the free trial period."

#61 Oct 01 2010 at 4:29 PM Rating: Excellent
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621 posts
This is alarming. Amazon ratings are usually pretty trustworthy. This is probably one of the worst user ratings I have ever seen for a game (or any product for that matter). There are lots of games with 5 or 4 star average ratings, so saying that only negative people vote is directly wrong.

Seems there is room for improving FF14.
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#62 Oct 01 2010 at 4:59 PM Rating: Good
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43 posts
Here's another JP website with ratings and comments:

http://onlinegame.dz-life.net/ff14/review.html

1.63/5 stars.

EDIT: Also, the standard edition is already 21% off.

http://www.amazon.co.jp/gp/switch-language/product/B002C4KLEC/ref=dp_change_lang?ie=UTF8&language=en_JP

Edited, Oct 1st 2010 7:06pm by mbub
#63 Oct 01 2010 at 5:08 PM Rating: Excellent
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charityneverfaileth wrote:
I've been on forums for a long time, and if there's one thing I've learned, it's never to debate with the guys who cut up your post into small chunks, destroying the context of the overall message, and picking apart every little nuance as if it were a separate argument in and of itself. It's pointless :)


If you can't be bothered to defend what you've written then what you've written wasn't worth defending in the first place.
#64 Oct 01 2010 at 5:09 PM Rating: Good
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4,902 posts
Quote:
I've been on forums for a long time, and if there's one thing I've learned, it's never to debate with the guys who cut up your post into small chunks, destroying the context of the overall message, and picking apart every little nuance as if it were a separate argument in and of itself. It's pointless :)


I've been on forums for a long time, and if there's one thing I've learned, it's when some one sides steps your argument they usually dont have any kind of rebuttal. Your post was full of optimistic ******** not based in reality or history. I simply called you on it. You dont like the way I did it? Thats too bad my points remain valid.
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#65 Oct 01 2010 at 6:39 PM Rating: Excellent
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Given the JP outcry, I really am interested to see what changes and how fast. I'm a game tester in my day job (not as fun as you'd imagine, woe) but it gives me a perspective on this game that I can't get on WoW, which I've been playing for too long to be subjective about anyway. This game is so new--I've never been at an MMO launch where I was aware of what people liked and disliked, and I find it fascinating. I'm actually looking forward to staying on board in the game for that reason (well, okay, and also, I'm a sucker for fishing).

Anyway, I'm glad to be on these boards, where people are articulate enough to have coherent debates about this.

Errr. That's all, carry on.

#66 Oct 01 2010 at 7:32 PM Rating: Excellent
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2,535 posts
charityneverfaileth wrote:
And by the way, it is communities that kill games, not the devs. Star Wars Galaxies was killed on its forums by haters. Had the haters simply left the game, and not spread their anger and hate, there would still be tens of thousands, if not many more people genuinely enjoy that game right now. Just as an example.


I find it absolutely hilarious that you have the temerity to say something like this, considering there actually still are tens of thousands of players enjoying SW:G. 50,000 at last count, in fact.
#67 Oct 01 2010 at 7:54 PM Rating: Excellent
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429 posts
Given how poorly FFXIV was received by the world, SE has until the free trial period expires to fix everything.
#68 Oct 01 2010 at 8:17 PM Rating: Good
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697 posts
I have 2 beliefs on how the next 3-6 months will play out:

Scenario 1: S-E will patch up glitches and non-user friendly issues such as chatlogs, friend lists, and market ward systems, implement housing or the company system, and further tweak the game until PS3 launch, which will itself usher in the first expansion to the game, including new classes and content. (Think FFXI JP release to NA release with rise of the zilart). At this point all the complaints will be outdated and the community can get on with enjoying the various unique aspects and story of the game.

Scenario 2: S-E drags their butts and doesn't fix much until the ps3 release, which will introduce sweeping changes to most of the game, but by that time the negative press of the pc version will have killed the userbase, who went back to FFXI, started playing Guild Wars 2, or bought Wow: Cataclysm. The ps3 version guarantees that there will be a decent playerbase for the game, but as for S-E showing that they learned from the last 7 years of ffxi, well...who knows.


I really think Scenario 1 is going to play out. Technically, the game has been out 2 days (yes, i know, I got the CE and have been playing a week and a half too). They are already doing a quick fix of market wards, and have formally talked about further implementation to make searching and selling items easier. We know they are adding companies and some sort of housing system, otherwise what's with the northern zone line in Gridania that's just like the market ward zone. Many of the things ffxi had that this doesn't, such as player locations and class information will surely be added. Bottom line, they released an un-polished game. Not unfinished, since there is a story, a good base combat system, and unique class system in place and pretty well balanced.

As much as i like the game though, there are things that since Everquest 1 have been basic necessities for MMO players (mailboxes, detailed friends lists, and some searchable auction house system) that for whatever reason are non-existent in the game. S-E has my money until the ps3 launch, I'm giving them a chance to prove that it will be money spent wisely. If they don't have things fixed by the ps3 launch, I probably will be one of the sheep going back to ffxi, WoW, or some other MMO.

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#69 Oct 01 2010 at 8:53 PM Rating: Excellent
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Thank you for OP for finding this and also for the translated google link.

At least we now know that the Japanese community are also feeling the severe inadequacies of FFXIV. I just don't understand how SE could have okayed this game?! *sighs* Let's hope SE fix these major issues as soon as possible, because like many others here on zam, I'm going to be stopping my subscription as soon as free trial period is up.
#70 Oct 01 2010 at 9:06 PM Rating: Good
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158 posts
Sucks to see the game take such a hit. I wanted it to be a good game, but corporate meddling ruined another game off the start.

I've a bit of a hatred for game-company meddling, they've cut short the potential of some of my favorite games: Xenogears & the Xenosaga franchise.

Anyway, the didn't the FFXIV devs even say that they felt the game needed a few more months to be developed? But no, in the quest for profits, the S-E suits shot themselves in the feet. I don't understand why they rushed the devs to shoot for an early release: they did honestly think they could pre-empt Cataclysm?

They were better off making sure everything was up to release standards, and shooting for a global pc + ps3 release next year. Anyway, now it's about triage, and those scars aren't going to look pretty after it's over with.

Maybe if S-E actually developed games like Squaresoft [mostly] used to, they wouldn't need to rush the development of games for the sake of profits.

What S-E games do you own outside of a Final Fantasy title? I can name numerous Squaresoft games that I have that aren't "Final Fantasy," but I can't say the same for S-E.





Edited, Oct 1st 2010 11:09pm by ghosthacked
#71 Oct 01 2010 at 10:06 PM Rating: Default
ketrel wrote:
Quote:
I've been on forums for a long time, and if there's one thing I've learned, it's never to debate with the guys who cut up your post into small chunks, destroying the context of the overall message, and picking apart every little nuance as if it were a separate argument in and of itself. It's pointless :)


I've been on forums for a long time, and if there's one thing I've learned, it's when some one sides steps your argument they usually dont have any kind of rebuttal. Your post was full of optimistic bullsh*t not based in reality or history. I simply called you on it. You dont like the way I did it? Thats too bad my points remain valid.


If I thought I could gain anything by having a ten page argument with you, then by all means I would indulge myself. But I don`t. I think the points I`ve made so far are sufficient to get those willing to think about it, to do so, and getting into a drawn out argument with a person who appears to enjoy the very process of contentious arguing, is not going going to accomplish any of my goals in life, or in final fantasy xiv.

All the best though, take care and best wishes.
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#72 Oct 01 2010 at 11:29 PM Rating: Good
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51 posts
OneFatAngel wrote:
That's a lot of one stars :D. Good to know that we are not just being a bunch of whinny foreigners.

Also.....How do you lick the UI?


1: Open the UI
2: Stick out your tongue.
3: Move your head towards your monitor on the right side of the screen (defaalt position of the UI) until your tongue makes contact.
4: Move your head in an upwards motion.
5: Repeat until UI is licked to your pleasure.
Optional:
6: Post video of you doing this to Youtube for everyone and Facebook for your friends.

As for the OP.. well at least some of them are showing some of the leser fun parts of the game. I have wondered, do the Japanesse (or other non english speakers) translate our reviews to there language and laugh at the translation issues too.

ps: I still like this game.
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#73 Oct 02 2010 at 12:13 AM Rating: Good
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AuryanofAsura wrote:
[quote=charityneverfaileth]
It's ok not to like the game. You're justified. So are people who do like it. But flooding the forums with negativity does have it's consequences on the community, emotionally and mathematically. If you have hope for the game, focus on that. It seems right now your purpose is to destroy it.


That's true. Even if we disagree, or if some of us are more angry at SE's (admittedly pretty bad) decisions, we do all hope for the game's success.
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#74 Oct 02 2010 at 12:21 AM Rating: Decent
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bsphil wrote:

By the way, 1 million people is an extremely generous number, FFXI at best only hit 550k, I wouldn't imagine FFXIV doing much better. Since it's just at release as well, probably more like 200k at best.


Actually, the highest recorded simultaneous active subscription number for FFXI was over 2 million.

In addition, NA sales numbers ALONE for week 1 numbered over 223 thousand for FFXIV. Thanks for trying, though. It actually made me take the time to look these things up.

Proof: http://www.vgchartz.com/game.php?id=35106

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Final_Fantasy_XI
#75 Oct 02 2010 at 12:21 AM Rating: Excellent
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1,636 posts
MerylStryfe wrote:
I have 2 beliefs on how the next 3-6 months will play out:

Scenario 1: S-E will patch up glitches and non-user friendly issues such as chatlogs, friend lists, and market ward systems, implement housing or the company system, and further tweak the game until PS3 launch, which will itself usher in the first expansion to the game, including new classes and content. (Think FFXI JP release to NA release with rise of the zilart). At this point all the complaints will be outdated and the community can get on with enjoying the various unique aspects and story of the game.

Scenario 2: S-E drags their butts and doesn't fix much until the ps3 release, which will introduce sweeping changes to most of the game, but by that time the negative press of the pc version will have killed the userbase, who went back to FFXI, started playing Guild Wars 2, or bought Wow: Cataclysm. The ps3 version guarantees that there will be a decent playerbase for the game, but as for S-E showing that they learned from the last 7 years of ffxi, well...who knows.


I really think Scenario 1 is going to play out. Technically, the game has been out 2 days (yes, i know, I got the CE and have been playing a week and a half too). They are already doing a quick fix of market wards, and have formally talked about further implementation to make searching and selling items easier. We know they are adding companies and some sort of housing system, otherwise what's with the northern zone line in Gridania that's just like the market ward zone. Many of the things ffxi had that this doesn't, such as player locations and class information will surely be added. Bottom line, they released an un-polished game. Not unfinished, since there is a story, a good base combat system, and unique class system in place and pretty well balanced.

As much as i like the game though, there are things that since Everquest 1 have been basic necessities for MMO players (mailboxes, detailed friends lists, and some searchable auction house system) that for whatever reason are non-existent in the game. S-E has my money until the ps3 launch, I'm giving them a chance to prove that it will be money spent wisely. If they don't have things fixed by the ps3 launch, I probably will be one of the sheep going back to ffxi, WoW, or some other MMO.




What about a third scenario where SE releases new content patches too soon, which also end up being buggy. The player base gets upset because despite a few things getting fixed, we're given even more unfinished content. Players think SE is half-assing it and quit. Thats the one I'm a bit worried about.
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#76 Oct 02 2010 at 3:00 AM Rating: Good
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Uryuu wrote:
bsphil wrote:

By the way, 1 million people is an extremely generous number, FFXI at best only hit 550k, I wouldn't imagine FFXIV doing much better. Since it's just at release as well, probably more like 200k at best.


Actually, the highest recorded simultaneous active subscription number for FFXI was over 2 million.


That 2 million figure is characters, not subscriptions. The highest recorded number of subscriptions was 550k in mid-2004.

Quote:
In addition, NA sales numbers ALONE for week 1 numbered over 223 thousand for FFXIV. Thanks for trying, though. It actually made me take the time to look these things up.


It's worth noting however that that's box sales. Box sales don't always translate into subscribers, because some people will decide after buying the game that they don't like it enough to pay more money every month to keep playing.

Remember, Warhammer Online sold over 1 million copies, but never had over 800 thousand subscribers. Age of Conan sold over 1 million copies, but never had more than 700 thousand subscribers.

Also keep in mind that MMO sales are usually fairly front-loaded; of those over 1 million sales that AoC had, for example, 500k were bought within the first 10 days after release.

All told, FFXIV has a good chance of breaking 500k subscribers. Breaking 1 million, on the other hand... much less likely.
#77 Oct 02 2010 at 3:05 AM Rating: Good
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Elamille wrote:
what it really boils down to is that people are much more likely to be vocal about a complaint than a compliment. just check these forums for evidence. you can find 100 posts about slow downloaders, lack of ah, no inventory sort, etc but how many posts do you see from people saying 'im really impressed with the graphics!', 'the opening storylines have me foaming at the mouth for more!', 'the ability to adjust the degree of difficulty for quests is awesome'. people who enjoy the game are busy spending time playing it while the disgruntled trolls troll.


But not even the opening storylines are very intriguing. Luckily for me as long as there's good gameplay I can still get into an mmo with weak story.. oh wait. Don't have that either! haha
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