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#52xthunderblazex, Posted: Oct 04 2010 at 6:22 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Fatigue is not the issue. You are missing the point. You get that same amount without fatigue while solo grinding.
#53 Oct 04 2010 at 6:38 PM Rating: Default
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They don't need to lower the curve...they need to completely revamp the way you get SP. It's too random right now, they need to make it a static value.


I don't get why people keep rating you down,you make a lot of valid points.I don't believe the game is Bad nor do i expect it to be perfect in its infancy.But i do agree SP should be a static value,its kinda ridiculous i can kill a mob and receive 500 SP.Then kill same mob again and get nothing i find this rather annoying.Not to mention several times it says i gained SP then it doesn't add it to my total after conclusion of fight.I may be in the minority but i like to know exactly how much i'm going to get for killing a mob not a random luck xp system.
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#54 Oct 04 2010 at 6:54 PM Rating: Default
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They rate me down because the truth sucks. I want the game to work out. We all do. It just needs some adjusting. Especially if they want the game to appeal to casuals.

Edited, Oct 4th 2010 8:54pm by xthunderblazex
#55 Oct 04 2010 at 9:31 PM Rating: Decent
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I really need to stop feeding this thread, but I think the reason why I want to keep posting is because you keep saying things like
Quote:
They rate me down because the truth sucks.

I'm still not seeing how you speak the truth, like a prophet or something. Maybe I am just totally missing what you're saying, because I still don't feel like you're making a valid argument.
Also, as far as I can tell, most casuals I've seen post seem to be enjoying the game quite well.

I hate to be redundant, but I really just see most of your arguments as this:
I'm a hardcore player and expect this game to be as hardcore as previous MMO's I've played.
Therefore, since it is not hardcore enough for my playing style, I am angry.

I'm pretty sure I've mentioned it before, but I don't necessarily disagree with all of your sentiments. There are problems with the game, that can not be denied. But how is it that other people are enjoying the game just fine, as I am? Are you sure that you're not simply biasing your view of the game based off your "hardcore" experience of FFXI and WoW? I've usually always found hardcore MMO players to look down on casual players, like there's some kind of stigma toward someone who is a "casual." I realize this may not be the case with you, but that's how I see your argument coming out: Hardcores are better than casuals, so this MMO should appeal to Hardcores more! Bit of an ad hominem there, but I hope you get what I'm trying to say.
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#56 Oct 04 2010 at 9:47 PM Rating: Decent
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ArkWeldwin wrote:
xthunderblazex wrote:
Uploading a crappy video to youtube. Shows how much SP you can expect from Green-Yellow mobs. Used a crappy configuration, so it's not that great of a video but it works. Will be uploaded whenever, it's a large file so may take a while.


Edit:

SPOILERS: http://i233.photobucket.com/albums/ee80/thunderblaze/lolend.png

32,000 / 11 = 2909.09~, round up, 2910 mobs to rank up solo! I've only killed 5.1-5.2k mobs in the game so far.


Edited, Oct 4th 2010 2:51pm by xthunderblazex

Edited, Oct 4th 2010 2:53pm by xthunderblazex


I choose this post to reply to, although there are so many to say something about.
In regards to your picture, I would like to point to some non-specific space in this thread where someone was talking about how you're essentially complaining that you can't grind your character to the level cap and be a super-awesome-omg-1337-badass-c00l-dood. Have you perhaps considered... not playing your gladiator for a bit? Have you considered giving the other aspects of the game a try? Have you considered PLAYING the game the way it's meant to be played?
Try this for example: I'm going to go play Halo. However, I'm going to only kill every bad guy with melee attacks. I think I'll stick it on Legendary difficulty, sounds good. Oh wait, the enemies are getting too tough for me, I can't seem to kill them all with only my one melee attack. I seem to be hitting some kind of "wall" as far as damage dealt to enemies is concerned... Hmm, I think I'll go online and ***** and complain about how Bungie made such a sh*tty game for not letting me beat it on Legendary with only one attack. Here, I'll even screenshot how little damage I'm doing! Look everyone, it's unfair!

Yes, it's a sh*tty analogy, but it's meant to be. I know someone's probably going to pick it apart and explain to me how the analogy doesn't work in certain points... But that's also not the point. The point is, the way I see your argument being played out is that you're complaining that your ONE class can not level as fast as you think it should. This ONE class in a game that advertises and was MADE FOR leveling multiple classes, etc. In another thread, I linked a youtube video explaining the Fatigue System. The narrator even explains that the game breakdown is like so:
Casual gamers can work on their one or two classes until cap
Whilst hardcore gamers can work on ALL or most of the classes until cap.
Either way, this should take you to the end of the fatigue, which I understand is to be about one week.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=abE09-tqhoM
Here. Watch it if you'd like. This is a purposeful mechanic of the game. If you're here to only play one class until cap, then I argue you're not actually playing the game. In which case, there's no point in any arguing, or any complaining.

Edited, Oct 4th 2010 8:16pm by ArkWeldwin


Best. Reply. Ever.
I wish I could siggy this reply and just autoreply to every b%tch/whine/moan thread that's out there.

Actually, what I really wish, If I were given to wishing, was that Zam would create a subforum strictly for people hating the game right now, so they can all comingle together and make viewing the threads for useful game info a little more enjoyable.
#57 Oct 04 2010 at 10:14 PM Rating: Decent
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Im only 17 conj and have already hit surplus cap so stopped playing conj but at around level 14, it started to become a lot better to group than solo in order to get exp.

The game appears to me to have gone the same way as FFXI. Best way to level up is to get together a decent party of 6+ and camp tough mobs. This sort of group has also been the most "fun" ive had in game.

Cant comment on the late 20's but I think this is all a ploy by SE to stop anyone getting to endgame and realising that there is currently no endgame content. Once there is plenty of stuff to do at level cap in game - I would expect a decrease in the curve and the removal of surplus.
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#58xthunderblazex, Posted: Oct 04 2010 at 10:46 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Bonus is not the issue at all.
#59 Oct 04 2010 at 11:21 PM Rating: Good
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thunderblaze -> so are those iron coblyns higher level than you? they're listed as 30-34 on ffxiv.yg.com, im wondering if that's accurate. Have you got a friend/linkshell mate that doesn't have fatigue and is reporting the same SP gains? I'm just curious.
#60 Oct 04 2010 at 11:47 PM Rating: Default
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HallieXIV wrote:
...but I think this is all a ploy by SE to stop anyone getting to endgame and realising that there is currently no endgame content. Once there is plenty of stuff to do at level cap in game - I would expect a decrease in the curve and the removal of surplus.


I agree with you, but I don't think anyone expected any endgame content on release. The reason for all this uproar lately is two things.

First, this game lacks basic design elements that are a part of any of the more recent MMO and PC games. This one is big because it directly affects the playability of the game. I don't care how beautiful it is if it is constrictive and unintuitive. I think one of the major draws for MMO games that SE seems to have overlooked is immersion. People are attracted to games that are so expansive that they can get lost in them. They had a great idea trying to bring together hardcore and casual, but so far it seems like they just created a hardcore game and are forcing people to play casually.

Secondly, there is not much other content available either. I'm talking about the filler quests that have you running off into the wilderness for a few hours in search of some item. These are the types of quests that gear and weapons should be coming from. Crafting was enjoyable for me in FFXI and I leveled 10 jobs to the cap, but that isn't for everyone. It should be optional and not forced. Instead SE has created a system that rewards people for leveling crafts and classes to a degree that it is forced. In essence they've said "You can level any class you want, but after a certain point you will get no skill for that class. Go do something else." The problem is that aside from playing another class you don't like, there isn't much in the way of activities you can participate in waiting for surplus to cooldown.
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#61xthunderblazex, Posted: Oct 05 2010 at 1:28 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Yes, the same is for everyone. I was getting the same experience pre-bonus. I've said this numerous times. The bonus amount is between 10-30% off the real value. It's still not much. Still thousands of mobs. Every rank20+ reports the same experience. Those who have not encountered it, are oblivious and refuse to believe us.
#62 Oct 05 2010 at 1:48 AM Rating: Good
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xthunderblazex wrote:
They rate me down because the truth sucks.

Edited, Oct 4th 2010 8:54pm by xthunderblazex


Who up and declared this the unbending truth of the world? Maybe they rated it down because the truth opinion sucks.
#63 Oct 05 2010 at 3:12 AM Rating: Excellent
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xthunderblazex wrote:
They rate me down because the truth sucks. I want the game to work out. We all do. It just needs some adjusting. Especially if they want the game to appeal to casuals.
No they rate you down for pretending that your opinion is the truth, which is quite different.

A single levequest can return 2~3k experience in less than 15 minutes I'd say that's good enough as xp/min goes, although if you want to grind your way to 50 be prepared to find a wall, that's the way they molded the game, simply put grinding won't take you much farther than casual players, for instance I'm gladiator lvl 21 and barely have played more than 50 hours since CE release and barely grind (if at all).

Can't deal with the system? perhaps is better for your to try another game.

And sorry maybe most of you want to skip the next part, I'm just addressing what I consider an ignorant post, couldn't help but felt compel to not left it unanswered, my comments in bold:

Abidtwo(edited with my comments) wrote:
If we step away from the, how-long-it-takes-to-skill-up-argument, this game is still not very casual/solo friendly at ALL. First let me just say, I do like the game. It has some issues (lots of issues) but I don't think they are unfix-able; I just hope they fix them.

You mean that a casual/solo player can't do well by him/herself, I just want to clarify that before keep going.

At rank 26 PGL you can no longer solo the color of mobs that you were soloing at 15, even with gear close to your rank (R19 wpn, R23 Harness, R28 Breeches...etc). As of right now, if you could solo anything at that level, prepare to get 18 skill-ups per kill. So unless they fix this, which I think and pray they will, you have to go party. Party skill-ups are bugged, end of story. Skill ups in general are too random. The highest in our LS has been 1,538 skill-up for 1-kill, the lowest a big fat 0. Still, there is really none to very limited option for solo at higher ranks. A blue/green Puk would kill me with his/her TP move, and I have 1500 HP.

So you are PGL level 26 that for your comment about "Party skill-ups are bugged, end of story" we can safely assume that you have done almost exclusively solo, those are 26 levels in 13 days since the game has been available, which by they way and with the amount of xp necessary means that you have been grinding in "bonus experience" a good part of that time, and you are still trying to say that progressing in this game solo is not possible?

Well let's say you don't play a DoW/DoW class, but a DoH/DoL class. You can solo then right? Yes, maybe, but not very well at all. First of all for crafters, as you may have noticed any gear you need to make requires something from 1-2 or more different disciplines. You would be lucky to find one that didn't require one item that had a requirement of an item that was 16 ranks higher. For example, a rank 5 Leather recipe requires a rank 21 recipe from Alchemy to make, and vice versa. How exactly do you intend to make these items playing solo and casually? Well you can purchase it. Well we all know what the market ward system is like. You can not find anything and if you do, you will never know if paying 80k for a undyed canvas is a fair price (lol). Well you can farm your own mats. True, but you will run into that issue I spoke of in the previous paragraph. Well I'll go armorer and I'll need just ore. That's not true, you will be needing a lot more than just ore, but suppose you needed just ore. Well it's obvious that higher level nodes will be around higher level monsters. Furthermore, all of these DoH/DoL have their own gear, so again with the need of other crafts.

So besides taking your PGL to 26 you have been crafting too, I don't know about your experience but me an my wife (both with crafts close to 20) have been crafting inside the cities most of the time, I'll give it to you, some sub-crafts are required but taking a craft to 5-8 for support can be done really quickly, and lower level synthesis requiring high level components is indeed a difficulty but to make equipment not to rank up because if you haven't noticed every single thing that you craft (or fail... or repair) grants you SP, then again how can your arguments can be used to prove that the game isn't solo or casual friendly?

One final issue is the overabundance of time sinks in this game. Sure leveling can take some time, but whatever, it's an MMO. But, should it really take 25 minutes on a ferry? Should it take more than a hour to get from LL to GRD? Well you can teleport. Yes you can, but only until you run out of Anima. There is no mail system. Any time you want to send someone something you have to run to them or your retainer which usually can only be found in the city you left them in. You can use bells, not really unless you leave your retainer idle. If he is selling something, you have to go all the way back. I mean I can just go on, but I am logging into the game now...

I will agree with you that item management in this game is lacking hard, search/trade/sell/buy items is one of the big problems right now (like we don't have another 600 billion threads about it but w/e...) still I can't say that this problem makes the game NOT casual/solo friendly as much as it makes it NOT hardcore/group friendly as well, it's an issue with the game, not a failure in design against soloers and casuals.

Love this game, lots of issues, NOT casual/solo friendly. Does a casual person really have time to travel to LL and back,and craft some Copper Buckles, all in about 3-hours, and then log off? Furthermore, does a casual person want to spend 3-hours of their time like that? all questions to ponder on.

Seriously no idea what you are talking about, 3 hours to LL and back?, anyway regardless all the problems and obvious short comings this game still has, I can say that with each log out, the only constant thing has been the satisfaction feeling for the time spent.

I'm afraid I couldn't find in your whole post a single feasible reason to believe the game is not solo/casual friendly, as much as I found the complaints of a person whose excessive hardcore grinding is giving diminishing returns, which is something that the game is suppose to be designed for.

For those who read through the whole thing, thank you for your time.

Ken
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#64xthunderblazex, Posted: Oct 05 2010 at 3:21 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) My complaint has NOTHING to do with the bonus experience system. Bonus is fine, doesn't do a damned thing. You keep missing the underlying problem with gameplay mechanics. Go get to 20+ and keep trying to solo, you will then understand.
#65 Oct 05 2010 at 3:43 AM Rating: Excellent
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xthunderblazex wrote:
My complaint has NOTHING to do with the bonus experience system. Bonus is fine, doesn't do a damned thing. You keep missing the underlying problem with gameplay mechanics. Go get to 20+ and keep trying to solo, you will then understand.

/sigh
Okay, let me try this one more time, and I'm going to totally make up numbers because I'm a little too lazy right now to get actual ones:
Let's say from rank 5 to rank 6 in a certain class, you need 5000 SP. You net approximately 300 SP per kill, if you're doing things right. Let's say it takes you about a minute to kill something, and disregarding special abilities and whatnot, another minute to heal up between fights. Two minutes per fight, 300 SP per two minutes, 6000 SP an hour, ya?

So you hit rank 20. Now it takes... I don't know... 30,000 SP to reach 21. Less than an hour to hit rank 5, five hours to hit rank 21.
That's right, right? I mean, I know the numbers are off, but that's what you're looking at, yes?
Same amount of SP gained. I'm not even taking fatigue into consideration and giving moderate scenarios, but you're saying that the amount of SP gained doesn't curve with the amount needed to "skill up"? And let's even assume the party glitch is fixed, because seriously you need to stop bringing that up as a major flaw in the SP system, we get it, it'll get fixed, calm down.
Anyway, if this is what you're saying, then my only response is:
"Thank God, it's about time."
Higher ranks should take longer to achieve. Simple as that.

I'm trying really hard not to start ******** about most modern MMOs, but my BIGGEST problem with them is that certain things in them are just way too freakin easy! The games have been altered just to make everyone who plays it happy, which detracts from the challenge (and, subsequently, the enjoyment real players get from the challenge) when everyone complains that "I'm not leveling fast enough!" and the game developers turn around and go "Oh, sorry, here you go, let us spoon-feed you EXP so your hemorrhoids don't flare up too much."
Just because you've had this privilege, if that's what you want to call it, of leveling at a decent rate regardless of what level you were actually at, that doesn't mean you're entitled to that same "privilege" in every other MMO you play. The original EverQuest was a fantastic game when it was nearly impossible to solo to level at any reasonable rate after 20, and even grouping it would still take a while to level. Leveling up was a big deal, worth people shouting in the zones "Ding 23!" and everyone replying with a resounding "Congrats!" A level was an achievement rather than hitting a level cap. These days, I don't see that same thing, so I'm glad to see something similar in FFXIV. I congratulate you, truly, for hitting PL 30 and almost rank 30 PGL. I am really impressed. But the fact that you don't seem to care disappoints me.
/endrant.

Edited, Oct 5th 2010 5:43am by ArkWeldwin
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#66xthunderblazex, Posted: Oct 05 2010 at 4:45 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) If you were to solo rank 27-28 it would take you more like 10-15 hours nonstop.
#67 Oct 05 2010 at 4:54 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
I'm trying really hard not to start ******** about most modern MMOs, but my BIGGEST problem with them is that certain things in them are just way too freakin easy! The games have been altered just to make everyone who plays it happy, which detracts from the challenge (and, subsequently, the enjoyment real players get from the challenge) when everyone complains that "I'm not leveling fast enough!" and the game developers turn around and go "Oh, sorry, here you go, let us spoon-feed you EXP so your hemorrhoids don't flare up too much."
Just because you've had this privilege, if that's what you want to call it, of leveling at a decent rate regardless of what level you were actually at, that doesn't mean you're entitled to that same "privilege" in every other MMO you play


i found this fairly intresting to be honest i belive challenge in a game does not come from grinding, for example the challenge of getting to top of castle zvah keep in ff11 wings of the goddess is a fun challenge to me but the challenge of getting from lv 1 -85 has been painful to be honest , i liked grinding in say a game like lost odysee so much though but it much easier than a mmorpg , world of warcraft i think probley takes a while to hit 80 but not so much that it because painful to do , please understand this is my own view on this.
#68 Oct 05 2010 at 1:48 PM Rating: Good
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As an actual casual player in this thread (most of you don't seem too casual based on level numbers), I do not remotely have any of these concerns right now. The question for me is based on where I am at in the game are there activities to occupy me that I enjoy doing. I don't expect things to be handed to me, I expect them to take time. I expect people to outlevel me. The question is will there continue to be fun things to do at my level, as well as people to play with.

Tonight I hope that I'll be able to play for an hour. If so, my goal is to take my character Ul'dah to Limsa and buy some bronze squares from the vendor. That'll also get me the ability to teleport there. If I'm successful I'll be pretty happy. Maybe I'll even craft those bronze squares into a couple things I have in mind. Maybe I'll make the trip with someone from my LS, that would be fun.

I am not remotely concerned about content/things to do between level 29 and 30 because that is so freakin' far away it's not an issue.

So please, don't stand around and debate how there aren't things for casual players to do at higher levels at this point in the games growth. Because most of the complaints I see are hardcore (multiple hours a day every day) players moaning about how things aren't perfect for them and really the complaints have nothing to do with casual players.

Stop "standing up" for us casual players. We have plenty to keep us busy.

Edited, Oct 5th 2010 3:51pm by NayliaMR
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#69 Oct 05 2010 at 1:55 PM Rating: Good
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ArkWeldwin wrote:
xthunderblazex wrote:
My complaint has NOTHING to do with the bonus experience system. Bonus is fine, doesn't do a damned thing. You keep missing the underlying problem with gameplay mechanics. Go get to 20+ and keep trying to solo, you will then understand.

/sigh
Okay, let me try this one more time, and I'm going to totally make up numbers because I'm a little too lazy right now to get actual ones:
Let's say from rank 5 to rank 6 in a certain class, you need 5000 SP. You net approximately 300 SP per kill, if you're doing things right. Let's say it takes you about a minute to kill something, and disregarding special abilities and whatnot, another minute to heal up between fights. Two minutes per fight, 300 SP per two minutes, 6000 SP an hour, ya?

So you hit rank 20. Now it takes... I don't know... 30,000 SP to reach 21. Less than an hour to hit rank 5, five hours to hit rank 21.
That's right, right? I mean, I know the numbers are off, but that's what you're looking at, yes?
Same amount of SP gained. I'm not even taking fatigue into consideration and giving moderate scenarios, but you're saying that the amount of SP gained doesn't curve with the amount needed to "skill up"? And let's even assume the party glitch is fixed, because seriously you need to stop bringing that up as a major flaw in the SP system, we get it, it'll get fixed, calm down.
Anyway, if this is what you're saying, then my only response is:
"Thank God, it's about time."
Higher ranks should take longer to achieve. Simple as that.

I'm trying really hard not to start ******** about most modern MMOs, but my BIGGEST problem with them is that certain things in them are just way too freakin easy! The games have been altered just to make everyone who plays it happy, which detracts from the challenge (and, subsequently, the enjoyment real players get from the challenge) when everyone complains that "I'm not leveling fast enough!" and the game developers turn around and go "Oh, sorry, here you go, let us spoon-feed you EXP so your hemorrhoids don't flare up too much."
Just because you've had this privilege, if that's what you want to call it, of leveling at a decent rate regardless of what level you were actually at, that doesn't mean you're entitled to that same "privilege" in every other MMO you play. The original EverQuest was a fantastic game when it was nearly impossible to solo to level at any reasonable rate after 20, and even grouping it would still take a while to level. Leveling up was a big deal, worth people shouting in the zones "Ding 23!" and everyone replying with a resounding "Congrats!" A level was an achievement rather than hitting a level cap. These days, I don't see that same thing, so I'm glad to see something similar in FFXIV. I congratulate you, truly, for hitting PL 30 and almost rank 30 PGL. I am really impressed. But the fact that you don't seem to care disappoints me.
/endrant.

Edited, Oct 5th 2010 5:43am by ArkWeldwin



Looking at the lodestone you've posted you're highest rank is 10. Believe me, 300 skill per mob, and 6000 skillup per hour does not last much longer. The problem is when things start turning to 30-50 or less skill per mob.
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#70 Oct 05 2010 at 3:57 PM Rating: Decent
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xthunderblazex wrote:
Yes, the same is for everyone. I was getting the same experience pre-bonus. I've said this numerous times. The bonus amount is between 10-30% off the real value. It's still not much. Still thousands of mobs. Every rank20+ reports the same experience. Those who have not encountered it, are oblivious and refuse to believe us.

You simply do not understand how long the current system takes, when solo. You have to virtually play all day, especially if you can't not repair your gear, as you will have to keep running back to repair it..in order to rank up in the mid 20s solo.

Yes it really is that bad. Yes, they really need to fix the SP system. No, I'm not just whining about it being too hard, there is a REAL problem. If you all choose to have your heads so far up your *** because someone is saying something negative about the game, well, you need to wake up and realize that even though this game has potential, it has issues that need to be ironed out.


The only true way to get SP in the mid 20s and beyond is partying, and with the SP glitch, that's discouraged, as the people who don't get SP for 10 fights in a row (it's happened) rage quit.


SE have designed a game that they want you to cap over a period of a year or so. You want a game that enables you to reach the cap in a few weeks. Sorry, but this is not the game for you. If it takes you all day to raise 1 level, then SE has achieved exactly the point of the game.

There are plenty of games on the market where you can reach the cap within a month. Thankfully, this isnt one of them.


Edit

That said - i do agree that the best way to level up is to group and grind tougher mobs. You need to have a party of similar levels though otherwise the exp gets screwy. THis is exactly the same as FFXI. The only other comment I would make is that I have spoken to someone in their late 20's and they said that it was very tough to solo until they upgraded their gear, and worked out the best combination of skills from other jobs. Now they are soloing EM+ mobs and earning great exp up to 500-600 per fight.

Just because you dont know how to play the game - shouldnt be a complaint to SE

Edited, Oct 5th 2010 6:02pm by HallieXIV
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#71 Oct 05 2010 at 4:42 PM Rating: Decent
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Good to know, I'm encroaching on rank 20 (rank 18 at the moment). I've pretty much told my friends we should do some 2 man teams to level later until the issue is resolved regarding the experience bug.

You didn't answer that one question about the iron coblyns lol but I'll find out later whenever I reach 26 I suppose :P. And yeah I already ranked up myself to be very self sufficient (having over 10 ranks in nearly everything lol), I still have to rely on my other friends for certain things but I can repair my own gear so far... I suspect this will change when I need to level to 20+.



Edited, Oct 5th 2010 6:44pm by mygosity
#72xthunderblazex, Posted: Oct 06 2010 at 2:13 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) FYI went back to test without bonus xp, I got a whopping 15sp instead of 11. Sorry, you're right, it's not broken!!!!
#73 Oct 06 2010 at 4:25 PM Rating: Excellent
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Oh man... I really don't know if I should be contributing to this thread, but here we go.

Thunderblaze is a bit rough around the edges, and lacks a bit of tact when conveying some points, but as far as my experiences as a THM24 go, he is 100% accurate.

I loved soloing up to 20 as a THM. Was exciting, challenging... And rewarding. When I dinged 22, however, I noticed my average SP/kill drop drastically. I repair my weapon, I repair my gear, I logged hours of solo grinding in tests on blue/green monsters. Something non-fatigue related caused my SP to tank 21+.

Now, parties are fun. I'm pretty hardcore and will adapt. The SP glitch in parties 3+ is lame, but I'm keeping positive that it will be patched.

What does all this mean? I don't really know. I felt compelled to defend Thunderblaze, however, as I can 100% back up his observations with those of my own. I love this game. I've been wanting to play it for years. But the SP system is glitchy. Decreasing SP you receive for equal-difficult monsters, while increasing SP needed for rank ups, is nothing but blatant punishment.

IMO, people should always be able to solo a ~green mob for 100-150 SP and let those partying (or those solo targetting yellow+) get more. As it stands now, I think S-E engaged in false advertising of it's casual friendliness.

Again, I'm pretty hardcore, and I love the game. I'm just trying to further explain a valid (in my eyes) concern.

Hope his helps

Edit: senior moment! Used the wrong name for Thunderblaze in my original post, as I used someone from my LS's forum. Hah! Both surround their name with X's. Sorry for the confusion.

Edited, Oct 6th 2010 3:35pm by Ridere
____________________________
Ridere Tirose
All the Lalafell...
None of the bad aftertaste...
FFXIV Server: Trabia


#74 Oct 06 2010 at 8:26 PM Rating: Decent
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322 posts
Yeah, no one wants to believe it though, haha.
#75 Oct 07 2010 at 12:24 AM Rating: Decent
It's irresponsible that you SE apologists try to re-characterize every flaw in this game as a piece of some sort of carefully thought out master plan. It's elitist. Acknowledge the issues. Complain. Loudly. In hopes that SE will hear and fix these problems fast enough to keep those pedestrian players that are quickly becoming disillusioned. And as much as you disdain them and feel that they have no place in your exclusive coven, don't forget that an MMO lives and dies by the numerosity of its player base. It's not enough that there are 20,000 people that feel that this game is great. SE will not keep the servers running just for that.
#76 Oct 07 2010 at 12:34 AM Rating: Default
HardLuckMonday wrote:
It's irresponsible that you SE apologists try to re-characterize every flaw in this game as a piece of some sort of carefully thought out master plan. It's elitist. Acknowledge the issues. Complain. Loudly. In hopes that SE will hear and fix these problems fast enough to keep those pedestrian players that are quickly becoming disillusioned. And as much as you disdain them and feel that they have no place in your exclusive coven, don't forget that an MMO lives and dies by the numerosity of its player base. It's not enough that there are 20,000 people that feel that this game is great. SE will not keep the servers running just for that.


I like when people hear a new word, they then use it every chance they get. SE apologists, Fanboy, Cluncky ... try thinking for yourself, and quit making socks to troll.
#77 Oct 07 2010 at 7:16 AM Rating: Good
Tenfooterten wrote:

I like when people hear a new word, they then use it every chance they get. SE apologists, Fanboy, Cluncky ... try thinking for yourself, and quit making socks to troll.


If you want, I can come up with new words. SE shill. Partisan. Zealot. Fanatic. Sycophant.

I never had and account before this one, and I'm not trolling. If you want to argue about labels and semantics instead of acknowledging that this game has issues, you aren't doing the community any favors.

There is a reason this game is getting poor reviews. There's a reason many of the posts on this forum - a FFXIV fansite, no less - are filled with complaints. It's not because the game is great.

I'm not trolling anyone, and I want to like the game as much as anyone, but SE's effort has been so mediocre that it feels that they are trolling the players.
#78 Oct 07 2010 at 10:01 AM Rating: Excellent
xthunderblazex wrote:
I can compare due to two pieces of information

1) It requires more SP to level in FFXIV than it does XP in FFXI and

2) You get FFXIV SP slower than FFXI XP.

Therefore, it is harder, and takes longer to level in FFXIV than FFXI. Mostly due to fake difficulty.

Corrections:
1) It requires more SP to level in FFXIV than it currently does XP in FFXI. As already stated, this has been adjusted in many ways, both in the actual amount of experience being reduced and in the amount able to be gained per mob. The last update to this was with Abyssea, which now blows every other higher level experience camp out of the water.

2) Comparing FFXIV SP to FFXI XP is like comparing apples to bananas, not even apples to oranges. Comparing physical level experience in FFXIV to EXP in FFXI would come closer. I don't have time to go get hard evidence right now, but I know that it took me a LOT longer to get to level 20 in FFXI than it has for me to get to physical level 20 in FFXIV. Oh, and I don't have to go back and level a SJ in FFXIV. I level other classes as I feel like it and pick and choose their abilities.

Additional facts you left out:
1) You don't lose exp or anything except for some time when you die in FFXIV. In FFXI, it was almost traumatic when you died in the dunes. I'm still getting used to this; I still feel panicked for a couple of seconds when I realize I'm going to die. I also just realized a couple of days ago that death warping can save me a lot of anima and I don't lose anything (if I remove all my gear).

2) As already mentioned taking longer to level does NOT equal being harder. If you are playing FFXIV to be the first to get to the cap, you might as well give up now before you start paying money to be annoyed. The point of the game is NOT to "beat" the game.

3) In FFXI, you had to level in parties if you were going to get experience. This wasn't just because of the amount of experience, but because you couldn't kill anything but EP-DC mobs reliably, with a few EM if you knew what you were doing. And longer fights didn't get you more exp, it got you the exact same amount. Starting around level 10, soloing was almost useless, except on a very few jobs, none of which were the beginning 6 that you had to get to 30 before unlocking the advanced jobs. Even duoing or trio-ing was not good. You were much better off forming a whole party. This, in turn, meant time spent LFP. Time that was precious if you were a casual gamer. I can't count the wasted evenings I spent with my little green flag up, surfing the Internet hoping to see some red text come across my screen inviting me to party. I don't miss that. At. All. (As a side note: Abyssea now requires 18 people to be most effective.)

4) If you're already in the rank 20s, you're most likely not a casual player. It seems to be the casual players are the ones arguing you're wrong.

Personally, I'm having a much easier time leveling in FFXIV than I did in FFXI. Just the sheer fact that I can log on and immediately do something to advance my character without looking for, hoping for, and/or asking for help from others makes it easier and faster.

The short end of it is that the statement that this game is a failure in aiming to target casual players is your opinion, NOT fact. You're entitled to an opinion. Claiming it as fact, however, is not truthful. Leaving out facts to back up an opinion that you claim to be fact is not truthful.
____________________________
FFXIV: Luthien Tinuviel, Elezen Female, Balmug (And will re-roll on a new server in August)
FFXI: Luthian, Elvaan Female, Bismarck (originally Luthien on Seraph):
85RDM | 80WAR | 76DRG
lolgaxe+1 wrote:
I've always been of the opinion that Warrior was the Swiss Army Knife of Vana'diel.
#79 Oct 07 2010 at 10:55 AM Rating: Good
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154 posts
HardLuckMonday wrote:
Tenfooterten wrote:

I like when people hear a new word, they then use it every chance they get. SE apologists, Fanboy, Cluncky ... try thinking for yourself, and quit making socks to troll.


If you want, I can come up with new words. SE shill. Partisan. Zealot. Fanatic. Sycophant.


Great, now we sound like Yagudo types.
____________________________
Shinalia Wynne Durstian, boat addict, poker of taru and lalafel.

FFXI: Kujata Server (I'm NOT in denial, really!)
Rank 10 Windurstian
FFXIV: Besaid Server Shinalia Durstian
#80 Oct 07 2010 at 12:09 PM Rating: Excellent
Sage
**
327 posts
LuthienOfSeraph wrote:
Stuff...


I think you completely missed our point. All of the exp adjustments for FF11 were level 51+ changes, I think. And there was a post later on that compared 1-30 between the two games. And death was also brought up, to the tune of needing to die (without a raise) 600 times to make the difference.

We understand that, and we both are admitted hardcore players. The trouble is that you are thinking the game is casual right now, because you can kill a green monster and get ~100-150 SP for your effort. And when you need 12,000 SP to rank up, that's pretty hot. When you need 36,000 SP to rank up, and green monsters only give 15-25 SP per fight, however, it's no longer so casual.

We're actually posting concerns that will matter to you, the casual player, the most. We're actually looking out for your interests, to be honest. I -really- want this game to succeed. I really want a casual player to always get around 100 SP for soloing and 250+ SP for parties. Hats just now how it works right now, so that is why we are concerned and hopi g for change.

I can't really understand why you'd be against us for our thoughts, as they only seek to help keep the game enjoyable for you when you reach the point we are in the coming weeks. I know I am just trying to look out for the more casual player, as that will be me here soon. (I blew some vacation time to be hardcore for the first two weeks). Maybe just try reading what we posted again, because I think there was some confusion there.

There's nothing casual about deliberately reducing you SP gains when soloing, when combining it with ever-increasing SP requirements for ranks, unless you wanted to punish/discourage more casual-friendly play.
____________________________
Ridere Tirose
All the Lalafell...
None of the bad aftertaste...
FFXIV Server: Trabia


#81 Oct 07 2010 at 12:21 PM Rating: Excellent
***
1,636 posts
Quote:
2) Comparing FFXIV SP to FFXI XP is like comparing apples to bananas, not even apples to oranges. Comparing physical level experience in FFXIV to EXP in FFXI would come closer. I don't have time to go get hard evidence right now, but I know that it took me a LOT longer to get to level 20 in FFXI than it has for me to get to physical level 20 in FFXIV. Oh, and I don't have to go back and level a SJ in FFXIV. I level other classes as I feel like it and pick and choose their abilities.


this is wrong. in FFXI your abilities are based on your job level. In FFXIV your abilities are based on your class rank. When grinding, you dont look for mobs that match your physical level, you match your class rank. Physical level determines how many stat points you can spend, which are actually capped based on your class rank.
____________________________


#82 Oct 07 2010 at 12:26 PM Rating: Decent
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322 posts
I love how people rated down all of my posts because they didn't like the truth about solo SP in the 20s and beyond. Grow up.
#83 Oct 07 2010 at 12:39 PM Rating: Decent
14 posts
haha the fatigue system works!!!! casual players will be catching up to the fast paced grinders and in the end everyone will hit max level around the same time.
#84 Oct 07 2010 at 12:52 PM Rating: Default
38 posts
xthunderblazex wrote:
It's not a theory, it's fact. Every person in the 20s I've talked to feels the same.

Edit: It's not negative. It's a fact.

Also, are you rank20+? That's when you'll start to see it, a few levels in. If not, you won't understand.

Edited, Oct 4th 2010 3:30am by xthunderblazex


Umm... im a rank 23 lancer and have no problem gaining sp? Yes there is the sp bug where u miss some fights which SE has stated they are working on fixing. Besides that i put a 4 man group of me a tank a thaumatruge and a pug and we gain around 400 sp a mob, Giant Crabs to be specific, and i gaine around 8k sp an hour. I went from 22-23 in 3 hours.

Pretty acceptable curve i think.
#85 Oct 07 2010 at 1:22 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
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135 posts
For a casual player? Hardly and that's the point everyone keeps missing, as Ridere so eloquently put it.

If, for argument's sake, all it took was 3 hours to get one rank, post 20 (which it won't later as the rank increases), let's say a 'casual' player logs in 3 times a week, for 3 hours at a time doing this very thing (being VERY generous here).

Do that math and tell me it's acceptable for a casual player to hit that. Then realize that it isn't anywhere NEAR that quick in how the game really operates, not to mention a casual player isn't going to be consistently hitting almost 10 hours a week. And this only assumes you do nothing but grind out that SP for those whole 3 hours, no crafting, no selling, NADA.

Way to miss the point.
#86 Oct 07 2010 at 1:44 PM Rating: Excellent
Sage
**
327 posts
Johnsmith129 wrote:
Stuff that misses the point.


You're missing the point. We are not saying partying as an idea is broken (Aside from the SP glitch). Partying is fun and better than solo (As it should be). Partying, however, is not necessarily a casual experience - at least not as casual as logging in for an hour of solo play.

We are saying that S-E implemented a system that deliberately destroys the amount of SP rewarded for soloing monsters after rank 20.

And that's the issue in which we are concerned. This isn't a rant about fatigue (I actually like it), or a rant against parties (Again, I like them). This is simply a thread stating that S-E needs to fix solo SP so that it's slower than partying (As it should be), but not slow in the sense that you only get 15-25 SP a kill on greens when solo at rank 24.

Hopefully that's more clear. =\
____________________________
Ridere Tirose
All the Lalafell...
None of the bad aftertaste...
FFXIV Server: Trabia


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