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SP distribution in Party = Healer deterrentFollow

#1 Oct 04 2010 at 9:53 AM Rating: Excellent
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I was in a nice goat party recently, trio, all of us were Rank 11-12 ish. I was primarily healing. After about two hours, I had earned about 1/2 a rank on CON, while the GLA and ARC I was grouped with had both gained 2 full rank levels. I know that SP for party healing got nerfed thanks to some people exploiting the system, but I think something is broken with SP distribution in a party.

Can anyone confirm or deny that the potential for SP is capped per fight? If there is in fact a cap on potential SP earned, is it based on the rank of party members, number of party members, level of mob? Does dealing more dmg earn you a larger portion of the SP available in that fight? It seems that I bust my a$$ healing and chat log reports a decent number of skill ups, but somehow those numbers aren't hitting my rank xp bar at the end of the fight.

After observing this trend (and painfully typing out to my party what I was experiencing) I switched up my combat tactics and started spamming "1" (Spirit Dart) a lot more. Low and behold, for the next 30 minutes or so of parsing, I was earning SP at approx the same rate of the GLA and ARC.

Why would anyone want to heal a party and earn a fraction of the skill xp?

Here's another problem from a healer's perspective.....to effectively heal (at least as a lowbie), I utilize both Sacrifice (THM spell, direct heal + HoT) and Cure (CON spell, direct heal). When I'm playing as CON it's impossible to gain any SP from using THM spells like Sacrifice and when I'm playing as THM it's impossible to gain any SP from using CON spells like Cure. The SP mechanics actually deter you from effectively healing a party.




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#2 Oct 04 2010 at 9:57 AM Rating: Good
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Interesting note. When I party I usually set up with 2 melee and two casters. The casters alternate on healing and buffing when needed. And doing darts in between. There is no need to just heal unless you are going for game that is slightly to hard.

Try adjusting what you are fighting or adding another caster and you should be able to do more then just spam your heals and get skill ups.
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#3 Oct 04 2010 at 9:57 AM Rating: Decent
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i agree with you, i experianced that in open beta -_-*
#4 Oct 04 2010 at 9:57 AM Rating: Decent
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Not played a mage class yet, but does Con Have any enemy debuff/DoT spells? with the cure not giving much exp maybe mob casting is needed also, (if anything like a whm in ffxi slow dia para etc)
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#5 Oct 04 2010 at 10:03 AM Rating: Decent
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You can get skill points on CON using THM spells both healing and debuff.

There is a glitch (go figure) that in a 3+ man party if you Heal and show skill ups(during battle), AS WELL AS, do dmg and show skill ups during battle.... you will NOT receive them at the end of the fight. If you ONLY do dmg or ONLY heal you (the mage) will receive skill ups tallied during the battle.

In a 2 man party (duo) this does not apply and you will receive both... sux to be a mage until they fix this :(
Or you only duo...

Believe me I feel your pain. I was in a 3 man party me (con) a LNC and a GLA... they had gotten 8k SP when I had gotten 1200 only healing... :(
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#6 Oct 04 2010 at 10:08 AM Rating: Default
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It's not surprising you can't gain skill points off of another class's abilities. It wasn't any different from FFXI where you can't skill up any abilities that your subjob had, but your main job did not.

Square has alienated a lot of Conjurers and Thaumaturges because of the SP healing nerf. It's hard for healers to gain skillpoints and it pushes many mages to solo, because it's better SP rate. If only they would change the system of which a party gain skill points, then party play would be a whole lot more viable for everyone. I saw mentioned an idea of totaling all skill points gained during fights, and just evenly split it between all party members. This way, even if your heavy hitting archer gains 700 skill points, and your lone Conjurer manages to get a 100 skill points between cures, the system will reward both members with 400 points.

Only problem I could see occurring would be powering through the ranks with them just sitting there doing nothing.
#7 Oct 04 2010 at 10:09 AM Rating: Decent
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Last week when i was a 17 archer in a exp party of 5 grinding on giant crabs near Limsa i had the exact same problem. During about 30min of fighting i noticed here and there that my SP was very random, serveral times it would show 50-100 sp procing during the fight for a suspected total of maybe 300-400, but at the end of the fight it would only say i only got 40-50 under the exp gained. But then after inspecting my SP bar i see i did not recive any SP at all... 30 min of grinding crabs all i got was 300 SP total... in lue of everything else thats wrong atm i almost quit right then. Still play though with the future hope of changes and fixes. I hope all those people complaining about no one wanting to make exp parties reads this thread.
#8 Oct 04 2010 at 10:11 AM Rating: Decent
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THM has tons of DoT type spells, CON not so much (iirc...)

Good point about targets being slightly too hard = more healing = less SP. It's a shame too, b/c taking on slightly too hard targets as a group makes things fun and challenging which is why I play MMO's.

I haven't really parsed anything yet, and mind you it's based upon a few limited examples and test cases, but for leveling CON / THM efficiently, it seems like the soloing wharf rats from 1-50 is the way to go.

gg SE
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#9 Oct 04 2010 at 10:13 AM Rating: Good
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i dunno about this lol. I am currently rank 20 conj who has duoing since level 10 with a gladiator. I am now officially a full level ahead of him (he just hit 19) because I gain so much more exp than him by both dmg + healing. I don't buff him on easy fights so I can get MORE exp from healing because that is my primary source of exp.
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#10 Oct 04 2010 at 10:20 AM Rating: Decent
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xGaelx wrote:
i dunno about this lol. I am currently rank 20 conj who has duoing since level 10 with a gladiator. I am now officially a full level ahead of him (he just hit 19) because I gain so much more exp than him by both dmg + healing. I don't buff him on easy fights so I can get MORE exp from healing because that is my primary source of exp.



exactly ... until they fix glitch this is best way for a CON to lvl ive found.
Glitch kicks in only when 3+ party members.
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#11 Oct 04 2010 at 10:20 AM Rating: Decent
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I haven't observed any problems solo or duo.

I sensed something was broken once in a four (4) man group when I was like 75 SP tnl and I got a bunch of SP spam in chat log across 3-4 fights and didn't ding.

The problem became glaringly apparent in the three (3) man group I was qq-ing about in my OP.

Your duo experience comment would make sense along with 3+ man group comment...
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#12 Oct 04 2010 at 10:46 AM Rating: Decent
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I'm surprised they never thought about these issues while developing the game. Clearly party based play was in the very back of their minds when they moved forward with a skill-up based level system. It has obvious flaws, like deterring healers and encouraging the spamming of low level skills, that should have been apparent even on paper long before this game was put together. The main measurment of character advancement needed to be physical exp, which can be shared by the party and easily controlled by developers - no matter how many cures a conjurer casts in battle or how long the fight is purposefully drawn out. This game has bad design at its core.
#13 Oct 04 2010 at 11:04 AM Rating: Default
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Aristio wrote:
It's not surprising you can't gain skill points off of another class's abilities. It wasn't any different from FFXI where you can't skill up any abilities that your subjob had, but your main job did not.


Hurrrrrr - funny story, if I set Sacrifice(THM) on my PUG and heal my duo partner, I tend to get more H2H SP then if I were punching things, lol.
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#14 Oct 04 2010 at 11:07 AM Rating: Good
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yeah you do get points even using other classes abilities - but the skill points are messed up. There have been times I get more SP - times I get less as a CON. I can't figure out what makes the difference though.
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#15 Oct 20 2010 at 4:52 PM Rating: Good
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I have noticed a similar thing as I mostly duo my MAR with a CONJ friend. When doing leves I can net around 300 per battle often reaching the 500 cap with GF, whereas he tends to net less than 100 per battle. He buffs before battle and cures during but doesn't get to attack much as he is a little squishy and tends to die easy if he attracks agro from the mobs.

Anyone know how to equalise job exp gain for the healer/supporter in a group?
#16 Oct 20 2010 at 5:15 PM Rating: Default
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Why does it have to be random? All mobs give equal exp. to all...is this another way to thwart the RMT?
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#17 Oct 20 2010 at 5:17 PM Rating: Decent
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Could be worse, GLA gets nerfed from using a shield, divides your SP in half between sheild and sword, even if you don't use the shield..
#18 Oct 20 2010 at 5:17 PM Rating: Decent
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hanibalz wrote:
Why does it have to be random? All mobs give equal exp. to all...is this another way to thwart the RMT?

All mobs does give exp to all. only SP is individual. But as it stands, it is pretty badly designed.
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#19 Oct 20 2010 at 5:29 PM Rating: Decent
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CONs have a DoT and Dmg type debuff for every element of spell they have :P


*meh, forgot the quote button

Edited, Oct 20th 2010 7:30pm by leydun
#20 Oct 20 2010 at 5:30 PM Rating: Good
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Current SP design sucks and should BURN. HATE.
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#21 Oct 20 2010 at 5:31 PM Rating: Good
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DonFlamenco wrote:
Why would anyone want to heal a party and earn a fraction of the skill xp?
They wouldn't and they dont. The healing SP 'adjustment' has effectively devalued healing in groups to the point where most healers 20+ realize that if they group, they arent going to get SP. Dedicated healing seems to only be viable at max level? This actually has about the same gamebreaking potential as the problem it was supposed to correct. Without healers, groups won't be successful. Without successful groups that are progressing and killing things, where is the motivation to play? Without people playing DoW/DoM classes, who will buy crafted goods?

One possible perspective on this is that SE intends for EVERYONE to level CON and THM for Cure/II and Sacrifice/II, and get into the practice of healing themselves. This is the approach i took; with the issues targeting, short AoE range and reduced SP, why would a healer heal anyone but the tank(s)? Why would anyone even PLAY a dedicated healer?

DonFlamenco wrote:
Here's another problem from a healer's perspective.....to effectively heal (at least as a lowbie), I utilize both Sacrifice (THM spell, direct heal + HoT) and Cure (CON spell, direct heal). When I'm playing as CON it's impossible to gain any SP from using THM spells like Sacrifice and when I'm playing as THM it's impossible to gain any SP from using CON spells like Cure. The SP mechanics actually deter you from effectively healing a party.
I can verify that I've gotten SP as CON from casting Sacrifice, but only against an appropriate-level target.

Whats more - and this could use some research but its my gut feeling - healing skillups appear to happen more often when you Cure a target that is at or below 50% health, 'in the yellow'. This could be indicating that in fact, SE does intend CON healing to be supplemental to self-healing. It could be an indication that SE isn't really familiar with the concept of healing incoming damage at a rate your healing output can keep up with, which is somewhat troubling.

I dont know the answer.
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#22 Oct 20 2010 at 5:35 PM Rating: Good
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Conjurers/Thaumaturges get MORE experience than battle classes in big parties.

In higher level, your heal has a chance to proc on everyone. Your heal give ~150SP/proc in a big party. This means with one heal, you can hit the SP cap.

Most of the time, you heal procs on 1-2 people. That's already ~300, when most people average 200 / fight. I level faster with 30% surplus than my friends do with 0%

Edited, Oct 20th 2010 7:40pm by Meowshi
#23 Oct 20 2010 at 5:36 PM Rating: Good
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Magnesium02 wrote:
I have noticed a similar thing as I mostly duo my MAR with a CONJ friend. When doing leves I can net around 300 per battle often reaching the 500 cap with GF, whereas he tends to net less than 100 per battle. He buffs before battle and cures during but doesn't get to attack much as he is a little squishy and tends to die easy if he attracks agro from the mobs.

Anyone know how to equalise job exp gain for the healer/supporter in a group?


What the OP did to fix his situation is the same as my advice...have the DOMs throw in darts and share in the DPS. It seems that DOM is balanced around doing both damage & healing, and a player trying to be a "Nuker" or a "Healer" will be penalized with lower SP (although Healers can still do well in large parties w/ enough AE heal targets).

Threat is a big problem with CONs...its up to the DOW to keep the mob off the CON.
#24 Oct 20 2010 at 5:44 PM Rating: Good
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yes, I can confirm that the bigger the party the better my SP... problem is then DoW start complaining about targets dying too fast and no SP for them... then we go looking for better prey get killed and then no one wants to party anymore. This could all be solved by giving equal SP for everyone and abandoning this RNG crap
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#25 Oct 20 2010 at 5:46 PM Rating: Good
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Sweeping, heavy-handed 'adjustments' like this are really worrisome because they clearly indicate that SE does not model, theorycraft or playtest their own content before releasing it; Nor do they even attempt to consider the effects of such changes from a player's perspective. If they're not doing either of those things then what ARE they doing exactly?

Seriously, devaluing HEALING? Wow.
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#26 Oct 20 2010 at 5:56 PM Rating: Good
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Olorinus the Vile wrote:
yes, I can confirm that the bigger the party the better my SP... problem is then DoW start complaining about targets dying too fast and no SP for them... then we go looking for better prey get killed and then no one wants to party anymore. This could all be solved by giving equal SP for everyone and abandoning this RNG crap


That's why you don't gang up on monsters lower level than you.

You see people going to R30 dungeons at R20. People going to R40 dungeons at R30. There's a reason for this.
#27 Oct 20 2010 at 6:34 PM Rating: Good
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Healing is the best way to level as a mage, thats just fact really. i have tried many many times

With one heal in a 3man party i can get 150skill points if im lucky. Alot of the time i can hit 500.

And this "bug" were if you heal and do damage you lose your points, never seen it

Edited, Oct 20th 2010 8:39pm by wallace87
#28 Oct 20 2010 at 7:12 PM Rating: Good
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Aristio wrote:
It's not surprising you can't gain skill points off of another class's abilities. It wasn't any different from FFXI where you can't skill up any abilities that your subjob had, but your main job did not.


Yes, it is surprising, because it almost negates the much-touted character customization aspect of FFXIV. And it certainly is different from FFXI.

In FFXI, I may not have been able to skill up Blue Magic when playing my Dragoon, but I could still gain experience when fighting monsters; I could still make my wyvern heal me with Blue Magic spells without lowering my experience per hour; I could still enfeeble the enemy without a detriment to my own experience gains. It is a different circumstance from simply not gaining experience from using other classes' abilities -- that is, from using the "best" part of FFXIV's mechanics.
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#29 Oct 20 2010 at 7:18 PM Rating: Decent
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DonFlamenco wrote:
Why would anyone want to heal a party and earn a fraction of the skill xp?
They wouldn't, and it's why I avoid grouping with my Conjurer if I'm looking for SP.

I can solo blues and greens and earn several times worth the SP as I would healing (and Spirit Darting) in a group fighting reds. Healing only gives SP like 1/10th of the time, if that. The DD spells aren't much better, in terms of skill gain amount and frequency.

The most reliable way to gain SP is to spam Spirit Dart, which is incredibly boring. I haven't bothered nuking since around rank 10, simply because it isn't worth wasting the MP. You can attack with 2 or 3 of your basic attack in the same length of time it takes to cast a DD spell. The SP gain amount isn't much lower for spirit dart than what you'd gain from a DD, and spirit dart doesn't cost MP. It doesn't make sense to do anything else.

They need to overhaul the entire SP system, not just for healers.

One of the main things they need to do is to give all mobs a basic amount of SP that you will gain when they are defeated, just like physical XP. That way you never walk away having gained 0SP.

They also need to adjust the amount of SP so that what you gain is more appropriate for what you are fighting. Here's an older post of mine about this:
Quote:
On a 19 DoW I soloed a Thickshell and received 225 Experience Points, 140 Skill Points.
Immediately after the fight, I killed a blue Firefly.
From the Firefly, I received 3 Experience Points, 53 Skill Points.

The Thickshell was orange to me and took 39 hits to kill, plus the damage my Shock Spikes did.
The Firefly was blue to me and took 9 hits to kill.

One mob hits for ~190dmg per hit, the other for ~20dmg.

Risk vs reward simply does not exist under the current SP gain system.
They should also look into combining a party's collective SP gains and averaging them out to everyone. So if there is a 3-man party where one member gains 100SP, the second gains 150SP, and the third gains 400SP, that would be 650SP in total. It would be split amongst the party members so that rather than 100SP, 150SP, and 400SP, they will each gain 217SP (the average).
#30 Oct 20 2010 at 8:53 PM Rating: Decent
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weenie, that is completely misleading.

Past rank 20, if you solo, you will always get under 100sp / monster, no matter the difficulty, no matter if you're on a leve. It is completely inefficient to solo, which is why nobody past rank 25 right now actually solos.

I have Rank 38+ friends. Every single one of them join 10+ parties to grind. Why? because of this.

When you are alone, lets say you get 100 SP for a monster.

When you are duo, even if you kill half the monster, you get 150SP, simply because you're in a party.

If your ally is afk, you can get 200-250SP for killing the monster, SIMPLY because you're in a party.

SP gains are inflated by the amount of people you're in. If you're in a 15 person party, you will get either the same, if not more SP.

This is why SE made that bug fix with the +/-5 levels, as well as area. People COULD party with 14 crafters and kill monsters for ridiculous SP.


Also, Conjurers make SERIOUS sp healing. One heal = 150sp. You have a party of 15, and enemies throw around AoE like candy. Just three procs / fight and you're maxed out.

You do the math. You're still rank 19 because you solo. Try partying, this is a MMO
#31 Oct 21 2010 at 12:12 AM Rating: Good
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Meowshi wrote:
You do the math. You're still rank 19 because you solo. Try partying, this is a MMO
Actually I'm not. As I said, that was an old post. It's a week ago today that I originally made it. And while this is a MMO, the content has been designed to be soloable. MMO doesn't automatically equal grouping up.

I'm beyond rank 20 now, and I'm still (mostly) soloing, and I'm still getting better SP from blues and greens than I am from yellows, oranges, and reds.

In groups, the SP gain as conjurer is still completely random and far too low. Sure you can get a nice hit of SP from casting a heal, but healing still only results in SP at a very low rate. It is not uncommon that I go several fights without gaining any SP at all from healing. The only SP I get in those cases is from using Spirit Dart, which adds up to more over time.

Which goes back to why I said spamming Spirit Dart is the most reliable way to gain SP. Which isn't a good thing.
#32 Oct 21 2010 at 12:25 AM Rating: Good
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If you are fatigued, in a party as the only healer and trying to get SP. That can be a harsh combination. That is all that I know.

Oh and you need to repair.

Edited, Oct 21st 2010 2:26am by Parsalyn
#33Meowshi, Posted: Oct 21 2010 at 2:57 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Stop soloing, go find a 15 man party, and tell me that healing sp sucks with a straight face.
#34 Oct 21 2010 at 3:49 AM Rating: Excellent
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Meowshi wrote:
Stop soloing, go find a 15 man party
While that may be 'the best way' to get SP as CON, isnt it extreme that you need 14 other people simply to level up effectively? That itself seems indicative of a poorly designed XP mechanic. Depending on your server population and the times you play, rounding up an entire raid might not even be feasible; I don't know that interjecting 'go and find 14 other people' is really helping him.
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#35 Oct 21 2010 at 5:12 AM Rating: Good
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KaneKitty wrote:
Aristio wrote:
It's not surprising you can't gain skill points off of another class's abilities. It wasn't any different from FFXI where you can't skill up any abilities that your subjob had, but your main job did not.


Yes, it is surprising, because it almost negates the much-touted character customization aspect of FFXIV. And it certainly is different from FFXI.

In FFXI, I may not have been able to skill up Blue Magic when playing my Dragoon, but I could still gain experience when fighting monsters; I could still make my wyvern heal me with Blue Magic spells without lowering my experience per hour; I could still enfeeble the enemy without a detriment to my own experience gains. It is a different circumstance from simply not gaining experience from using other classes' abilities -- that is, from using the "best" part of FFXIV's mechanics.


Good thing he's wrong. You do gain SP from using another classes abilities. I play a PUG, with Cure slotted, and duo with my gf who plays CON. She recently got a DoW/DoM shield, so she's been wanting to tank on some mobs, so I sit back and toss heals on her. Usually at least once per fight, I'll get H2H skillup from casting a cure on her. It seems that I never get SP for healing myself, only other targets.

Edited, Oct 21st 2010 7:13am by Ilmoran
#36 Oct 21 2010 at 7:02 AM Rating: Decent
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I think the best way that they could do SP gain without doing a flat SP at end of fight is to have it be how it is now with SP gained based on damage dealt (obviously isnt a flat scale), and then at end of fight do some equation to multiply (or divide if it takes too long) the amount of sp.

This would serve to both reward people for finishing the fight quickly by using tactics and more than the basic attack to defeat the mob quickly and deter people from purposely drawing out a fight.

Now they would have to take into account the level of mob vs lvl of player when determining how long the fight should take, but I believe this would be the best solution to the problem of random sp gains and boring basic attack spamming.
#37 Oct 21 2010 at 7:43 AM Rating: Decent
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I'm sure that what Im about to suggest could be abused in some way, but what they NEED to do is give you your SP WHEN you earn it and not at the end of the fight.....

actually I already know how it can be abused, but still, I rather have my cash up front then after I've worked all day and you change your mind about paying me for my heals....
#38 Oct 21 2010 at 8:05 AM Rating: Default
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Timorith wrote:
Meowshi wrote:
Stop soloing, go find a 15 man party
While that may be 'the best way' to get SP as CON, isnt it extreme that you need 14 other people simply to level up effectively? That itself seems indicative of a poorly designed XP mechanic. Depending on your server population and the times you play, rounding up an entire raid might not even be feasible; I don't know that interjecting 'go and find 14 other people' is really helping him.



It's the best for EVERYBODY right now. When you solo, NOBODY gets any experience. Not DoM, not DoW. You can solo anything and literally get less than 50sp. It is completely possible for you to solo your way to 50, but it is not viable. Soloing leves with guardians favor on might net you 4ksp/hour, if you're lucky and get the right leves. Soloing without guardians favor will net you 3ksp/hour. However, sitting in a 15 man party with net you 8ksp if you are DoW, and 10k SP if you are DoM. DoM are not the hardest people to get SP. The only area I would say DoM get shafted is perhaps during guildleves, but really? Everyone gets shafted during guildleves. What was once the miracle level upper becomes trash, and perhaps you guys aren't adjusting.


Right now, I don't have any screenshots or proof that partying is the only way to go, but here is a movie somebody posted on this forum a while ago.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ju05AYvclV4 (Compliments of the search function: http://ffxiv.zam.com/forum.html?game=268;mid=1286535244119875897&page=1&howmany=50#msg1286541351289623127 )

At the time, I thought it was bullsh*t too. Just RNG, he has fatigue, and maybe he's just unlucky.

Listen, I am neither hating, nor supporting the system. I am just trying to tell you guys, that contrary to what you guys think, Conjurers do not make the worst SP, they actually make the best. Now then:

This fight is largely representative of leveling past Rank 25 solo. You go into a fight, you get maybe 1 - 2 procs for less than 25. Seriously. This is what happens solo.

You are basically being forced to party if you want any experience. And in a party, Cure1 / Sacrifice = The biggest net SP getter in comparison to DoW.

I'm sorry you guys don't believe me.

Edited, Oct 21st 2010 10:06am by Meowshi
#39 Oct 21 2010 at 8:41 AM Rating: Decent
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Yeah......just as an FYI, my OP is over two (2) weeks old and a game patch that was implemented more than a week ago fixed SP distribution in parties. The SP gain spam you see during combat is now = to the SP you gain @ the end of the fight.

Not sure how the thread got resurrected.
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#40 Oct 21 2010 at 9:09 AM Rating: Excellent
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They need to just pool everyone's gained SP and split is equally at the end of the fight already.
Not like it'll promote lazyness/leechers, lazy people get booted from parties. Also everyone will be doing the most they can to raise the final SP split.

Oh a necro huh. Bah.

Edited, Oct 21st 2010 11:10am by RattyBatty
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#41 Oct 21 2010 at 9:33 AM Rating: Decent
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In my experience I usually gain more SP than the melee classes as CON.

I use Spirit Dart repeatedly, use Radiance as soon as I have enough TP and drop the occasional heal.

I used to buff the party but that would cause them to take less damage therefore giving me less opportunities to heal. I never did party back before party healing was nerfed, but I've been pretty pleased with the ammount of SP I get from healing. It almost seems as though I get more SP from heals than darts sometimes.
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