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No AH....really?Follow

#52 Oct 04 2010 at 11:36 PM Rating: Excellent
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Kardall wrote:
No one is doing social things, because they're all too busy leveling their characters and crafting, because they're expecting some big patch soon with 'end game raids' etc.

I ... disagree. We don't do social things because CHAT SYSTEM SUCKS. seriously......

Typing while fighting.... no thx.
Typing while gathering/crafting.... you lose what you type when a new option shows up for you to choose.

I can't chat while doing anything at all..... I mean, I can, but it's super annoying. Even when I'm idling or doing nothing, scrolling to find /tells or read logs are still very annoying.

You can't even CTRL+R.... yea last name is so easy to type out. Bah.

I'm sorry to reference to WoW, but how you can just mouse click on people's name to automaticly /tell them, is the best idea I've ever seen. Not to mention giving out item name clickable in chat.

Edited, Oct 5th 2010 1:39am by Jazalas
#53 Oct 04 2010 at 11:38 PM Rating: Default
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Jazalas wrote:
Kardall wrote:
No one is doing social things, because they're all too busy leveling their characters and crafting, because they're expecting some big patch soon with 'end game raids' etc.

I ... disagree. We don't do social things because CHAT SYSTEM SUCKS. seriously......

Typing while fighting.... no thx.
Typing while gathering/crafting.... you lose what you type when a new option shows up for you to choose.

Chatting system is just annoying right now. If I want to talk, I have to do absolutely NOTHING.

You can't even CTRL+R.... yea last name is so easy to type out. Bah.


You can CTRL+R.

You just have to have typed the name in once before.
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#54 Oct 04 2010 at 11:40 PM Rating: Excellent
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HallieXIV wrote:
You can CTRL+R.

You just have to have typed the name in once before.

I know that, And it's annoying. most people's last name is not easy to type. Especially when I have to scroll all over my log to find that name.
#55 Oct 05 2010 at 12:12 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
If you get together into a party of 6 crafters of similar level (at around level 10-12), between the members of the party you can start to knock out some serious equipment. It was SE's intention to create a community, crafting forces this.

It forces this, true, but is it worth it? Is this system an improvement on community-fostering systems that have already been created in other games? Is the loss of an efficient mechanism for searching and buying goods worth the price to have a community of "6 crafters of similar level [...] [knocking] out some serious equipment?" Community will come if people like the underlying foundation of the game. If the game is good and gives many options for various play styles, a community will develop. There's no need to handicap your game with asinine design decisions in order to foster a community, unless you want your community badmouthing your game to anyone they come across.
#56 Oct 05 2010 at 4:38 AM Rating: Decent
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Anyone else notice this site?

http://ffxiv.yg.com/bazaar?srv=11&t=2

Kinda handy since FFXIV doesntt have an AH
#57 Oct 05 2010 at 5:00 AM Rating: Default
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still find it cumbersome, retainers are good up to a certain point, this game really need a AH to be place in several areas for better sells/buys and should be place in multiple areas. and prices should be regulated with in it, enough with the rmt monopoly.
#58 Oct 05 2010 at 7:25 AM Rating: Default
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Montydataru wrote:
No AH is one of the worst ideas they came up with...pfft...and if they ever put one ingame
it'll prolly take 15 clicks just to buy something.

I for one am not gonna click on player after player to find what I need. I did click on one player on the first day I played and even that involved 4 or 5 clicks. Enough of that.

Guess I'll play in my level 1 gear till the free trial runs out, then wait till they put an
AH in the game...or Guild Wars 2...whichever comes first.

What a disappointment SE has been so far on their new game...perhaps they shoulda hired some
gamers to give em advise. FFXI was dabomb...IV is dafail



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#59 Oct 05 2010 at 8:32 AM Rating: Excellent
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I believe those who love the current system love it for the following reason:

If a AH was added, prices would be competitive and easy for the shopper to compare. Shards would drop to 10g due to price wars along with every other item and material in the game dropping in price. It would be a buyers paradise and the sellers wouldn't be sitting on passive profits.

Right now FFXIV is like living in a rural country town with a few local mom and pop shops. I don't want to spend all day finding the best price so settle for what I 'feel' is decent.

I want WalMart (AH) to move into town and shut down mom and pops who have been price gouging me without me even being aware of it.

Those that defend the current system are trembling at the thought of a AH being added and afraid their 200,000k a day profit will cease. I place my shard seller by the middle of first market and make massive gil. Its convenient and easy to see with a name reflecting it sells shards and I sell them for more than the guy with the bland name hidden in the crowd. Even though I'm sitting on several thousand gil because of it and prey off the overly complicated and time consuming system - doesn't make it right.
#60 Oct 05 2010 at 8:37 AM Rating: Excellent
40 posts
I don't see how no AH enforces a stronger community. I refuse to use the market wards, I simply do not have time to run around and browse hundreds of NPC retainers just to find one specific item I need. I also refuse to stand around and shout for a trade, I had to do that over ten years ago playing Everquest.

The lack of an AH has completely secluded me from the community. In order to get new weapons and armor, I am focusing on all of the crafts required to make the weapons and armor I need. I am so wrapped up in gathering materials and raising my different crafting jobs that I do not have time to participate in any kind of "community".

Not to say that I don't like the game, but I felt a stronger sense of community in FFXI when I spent my time actually grouping up with other people and killing monsters. I do not get a sense of community when I am grinding local guildleves and farming ore/wood just to be able to make the items I need. If there were some type of AH, I'd just buy most of the materials, or the items themselves, then I could go out and actually play the game.
#61 Oct 05 2010 at 8:41 AM Rating: Decent
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sqwertyuiop wrote:
I don't see how no AH enforces a stronger community. I refuse to use the market wards, I simply do not have time to run around and browse hundreds of NPC retainers just to find one specific item I need. I also refuse to stand around and shout for a trade, I had to do that over ten years ago playing Everquest.

The lack of an AH has completely secluded me from the community. In order to get new weapons and armor, I am focusing on all of the crafts required to make the weapons and armor I need. I am so wrapped up in gathering materials and raising my different crafting jobs that I do not have time to participate in any kind of "community".

Not to say that I don't like the game, but I felt a stronger sense of community in FFXI when I spent my time actually grouping up with other people and killing monsters. I do not get a sense of community when I am grinding local guildleves and farming ore/wood just to be able to make the items I need. If there were some type of AH, I'd just buy most of the materials, or the items themselves, then I could go out and actually play the game.


Honestly, if you join a linkshell, then you would have time to focus on it. My linkshell is getting specific people to do some jobs. Focus on one, make stuff as you go for the rest of the linkshell. A lot of us are over rank 10 in the craft, some higher because they started early.

Do that, and then you won't have to spend all your time gathering... just my $0.02.
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#62 Oct 05 2010 at 8:48 AM Rating: Decent
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Yeah, I realize that's an option and I've done some trading within my LS already. That just doesn't provide me with all the materials or items I need, especially since people have to be online for these trades to occur. Some type of place where people could put their stuff up for sale while they're logged off would be nice. Something with a search function.
#63 Oct 05 2010 at 9:08 AM Rating: Default
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Stop complain and play/quit!~ OTZ
Dang! only 6 servers are not full wth?! rush people~ *RAWR*
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#64 Oct 05 2010 at 9:54 AM Rating: Good
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shiratori wrote:
Stop complain and play/quit!~ OTZ
Dang! only 6 servers are not full wth?! rush people~ *RAWR*


Sorry, you're stuck with me for at least the rest of the free month. I'm sure we'll see a couple servers shutting down/merging after that if they don't address some of the problems with the game.

Also I'm at work right now so I can't play, that's why I'm spending my time complaining, lol.
#65 Oct 05 2010 at 9:59 AM Rating: Decent
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Its called. . .

Hey! I see you are a high level blacksmith. I am a high level carpenter. Would you like to work together and make some mining equipment and split the profits?!

Its called. . .

Hey I see you are mining that ore there and you're using a crappy pick axe. I've got a new pickaxe for sale if you would like it!

Its called. . .

Go into a carpenters guild and see what people are creating. Then offer them wood of that level for a discounted price!

You dont need an effing auction house to play this game. Learn to communicate and not rely on menus and you'll be fine. Jesus christ
#66 Oct 05 2010 at 10:01 AM Rating: Default
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You sound more like you're trying to convince yourself than me.
#67 Oct 05 2010 at 10:07 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:

So does spamming standard over and over again require you to think 'mutch'?


If that's all your doing please come buy my materials because your going to need much much more than someone who actually has a strategy to use while crafting.
#68 Oct 05 2010 at 11:02 AM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
Hey! I see you are a high level blacksmith. I am a high level carpenter. Would you like to work together and make some mining equipment and split the profits?!


the "go find someone" argument is weak, because it means you have to find someone in town. the AH allows that person to share their contributed materials, while hes off leveling pugilist, Or doing leves somewhere. Without an AH, those 2 people wouldnt have "made that item together", the person seeking would be sitting around waiting for someone who could, or giving up.

plus on a server with more blackmiths than carpenters, the carpenter can make 40 handles, and then sell through the AH to any number of potential blackmiths, therefore cooperating with even more people, allowing more people to profit.
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#69 Oct 05 2010 at 11:03 AM Rating: Good
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It's called let's take away buyer friendly markets.

Let's kill the internet, no EBAY, no AMAZON, no NEWEGG, etc, etc, etc..

No more Target, Walmart, Bestbuy, Supermarkets, Malls..

We are going to de-evolve back to the day when people had to put up with mom and pop shop's along main street and pay eye gauging prices because it was just not logical to travel across the state looking for the best deal on clothes or commonly used items.

It's lets add another time sink to this game to slow linear character progression.

It's lets bandaid this market ward over and over until it becomes a gimp AH that acts like an auction house, but requires unnecessary steps in order to recieve end product.

It's that even with a search function, players will then have to go to market ward and go through even MORE menu's and needlessly interact with an NPC.

It's stupid fanboys that think someone buying from your NPC is some kind of player interaction.. or some sort of community event.

It's people getting rich from market wards that defends the idea, simply because people spend 2 hours looking for a specific upgrade and out of frustration purchase the first one they see.

It's the fact that SE will NEVER admit failure, instead they will mask it behind multiple patches that eventually will lead to the implementation of an AH system. Like 6 months from now when PS3 is released.

It's the fact that the AH is not even the real reason that makes this game unplayable.



Edited, Oct 5th 2010 1:04pm by Xclusive215
#70 Oct 05 2010 at 11:46 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
It's people getting rich from market wards that defends the idea, simply because people spend 2 hours looking for a specific upgrade and out of frustration purchase the first one they see.


You know you have the opportunity to do the same right?

I predict this very same poster will return (if they keep playing) after a serach/history has been added complaining someone undercutting them on the super sweet drop they just got.

Edited, Oct 5th 2010 12:47pm by windexy
#71 Oct 05 2010 at 12:14 PM Rating: Decent
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windexy wrote:
Quote:
It's people getting rich from market wards that defends the idea, simply because people spend 2 hours looking for a specific upgrade and out of frustration purchase the first one they see.


You know you have the opportunity to do the same right?

I predict this very same poster will return (if they keep playing) after a serach/history has been added complaining someone undercutting them on the super sweet drop they just got.

Just because you can sell crack and make lots of money, doesnt mean you should, jackass.
So because we can ALL take advantage of peoples frustration and impatience we should?
Weak argument.
#72 Oct 05 2010 at 12:27 PM Rating: Good
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TheMightyX wrote:

Just because you can sell crack and make lots of money, doesnt mean you should, jackass.
So because we can ALL take advantage of peoples frustration and impatience we should?
Weak argument.





^^^^^^^ LAWL. I have made several hundred thousand gil selling shards selling them for more than others but can do it simply because I have a retainer named 'shard seller' and place it in the middle of the ward and yet, I still am a strong supporter of a AH. Until a AH is implemented I need to ***** as many lazy people over as I can to in turn take that gil and spend in on those ******** me on gear and other mats.
#73 Oct 05 2010 at 12:33 PM Rating: Default
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Quote:
Just because you can sell crack and make lots of money, doesnt mean you should, jackass.
So because we can ALL take advantage of peoples frustration and impatience we should?
Weak argument.


It's called supply and demand, a pretty simple economic concept. You might want to look into it sometime.
#74 Oct 05 2010 at 12:40 PM Rating: Excellent
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windexy wrote:
Quote:
Just because you can sell crack and make lots of money, doesnt mean you should, jackass.
So because we can ALL take advantage of peoples frustration and impatience we should?
Weak argument.


It's called supply and demand, a pretty simple economic concept. You might want to look into it sometime.



For supply and demand fully take effect over pricing, people need to actually determine supply (which currently requires checking hundreds of retainers and player bazaars), and demand, which is currently almost impossible to gauge, but i guess you can try and track how fast those 2k retainers sell each of their goods.
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#75 Oct 05 2010 at 5:05 PM Rating: Excellent
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Twolow24 wrote:

^^^^^^^ LAWL. I have made several hundred thousand gil selling shards selling them for more than others but can do it simply because I have a retainer named 'shard seller' and place it in the middle of the ward and yet, I still am a strong supporter of a AH. Until a AH is implemented I need to ***** as many lazy people over as I can to in turn take that gil and spend in on those ******** me on gear and other mats.



You may think you are ripping people off by doing what you're doing, but you're actually doing people a service. ALL I WANT is to know what people are selling BEFORE I have to click on them. Some type of sign, label, SOMETHING to keep me from having to browse through hundreds of bazaars/retainers just to find something that I actually want to buy.

The fact that you have to name your retainer "shard seller" shows how stupid the system is. People should at least get some type of sign above their head that says "I SELL ALCHEMY SUPPLIES" or something like that. Anybody who thinks that the current state of player trading is fine is seriously damaged in the head.

I'm willing to put up with this because I have about 15 other RL friends playing the game. We look out for each other, we help each other out when we can. Not everybody is in the same situation as me, some people are being plopped out there with nothing, and no knowledge of what they're getting into. And I think those people aren't going to last long, and those people are the ones this game needs to try and appease just so the game can stay afloat.

All of the sycophants out there might think they are helping the game by mindlessly defending every design decision and alienating anybody that doesn't enjoy every aspect of it. They are wrong. They are hurting the game, they are not encouraging any type of change or progress, they are encouraging stagnation and destroying the hope of everybody who wants the game to actually get better.

Some of us actually complain because we see potential in this game and think that, with a few tweaks, it can be truly great.
#76 Oct 05 2010 at 5:44 PM Rating: Good
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To start with I thought the retainer bazaar system would be ok. I remember browsing the bazaars just outside Jueno in FFXI and found some good things.

But over time I have begun to get very frustrated with FFXIV's retainer bazaar system. I don't like it. The market wards are packed and in a bit of a mess. It's very time consuming to find the gear or items you want.

I am in a small Linkshell, we have 7 members so far. And we have decided the best thing to do is to pick a craft each and rather than level many crafts (which is what I started to do, with Blacksmith, Armourer, Goldsmith and Leatherwork all above lvl 10) we will concentrate on one main craft each.

Then we can make materials and gear for each other and swap and trade.

I would love an AH like in FFXI, but for now I think working together with your fellow linkshell members is a good way to go.
#77 Oct 11 2010 at 9:04 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
For supply and demand fully take effect over pricing, people need to actually determine supply (which currently requires checking hundreds of retainers and player bazaars), and demand, which is currently almost impossible to gauge, but i guess you can try and track how fast those 2k retainers sell each of their goods.


Not everything has to be calculated out to 5 decimal points and min/maxed to use it.

  • If someone is shouting you know the demand is high and the supply is low. Raise your prices.
  • If you are having trouble keeping something stocked demand is high ans supply is low. Raise your prices.
  • If people aren't buying your product demand is low and supply is high. Lower your prices.
#78 Oct 11 2010 at 12:05 PM Rating: Decent
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How can anyone defend the market system as it is now?

The Market Ward is a black hole or time robbing machine. I have spent 2 hours going through the market for 1 item and came out empty handed. It has gotten to the point I ask LS mates to shop with me to save time.

It is carpal tunnel waiting to happen.
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#79 Oct 11 2010 at 12:12 PM Rating: Excellent
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Torrence wrote:
F3rth wrote:

We are surviving without an AH...

It's really not as bad as people think... auction houses are sterile environments that don't support communities.

When I first started I thought the game would be awful... but it really just forces players to form communities.

Auction house is easy mode.


Auction house is easy mode... Let me just digest that for a moment.

Wow. The posts on this site defending this failboat of a system just get better and better. An Auction house is easy mode. Now I have seen it all.


Yeah that was quiet ridiculous to say that. It is not more easy mode than if they added searching into the retainer system. Of course that is pretty much equivalent to an AH.
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#80 Oct 11 2010 at 12:16 PM Rating: Good
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windexy wrote:
Quote:
For supply and demand fully take effect over pricing, people need to actually determine supply (which currently requires checking hundreds of retainers and player bazaars), and demand, which is currently almost impossible to gauge, but i guess you can try and track how fast those 2k retainers sell each of their goods.


Not everything has to be calculated out to 5 decimal points and min/maxed to use it.

  • If someone is shouting you know the demand is high and the supply is low. Raise your prices.
  • If you are having trouble keeping something stocked demand is high ans supply is low. Raise your prices.
  • If people aren't buying your product demand is low and supply is high. Lower your prices.


Here are some counter points

1. That requires you to be everywhere at once and hear what everyone is saying, you might be able to determine what is happening
in the area around you but you can't determine what is happening out of shouting range.

2. That only effects you, you don't know if there is another guy in the same room selling the same thing for less but none are being sold.

3. Maybe they just can't find you and now that you lowered your prices you are actually selling below market value.
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Carl - "Shhhh, do you hear that? That is the sound of forgiveness."
"That is the sound of people drowning Carl."
Carl - "That is what forgiveness sounds like, screaming and then silence."
#81 Oct 11 2010 at 1:42 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
1. That requires you to be everywhere at once and hear what everyone is saying, you might be able to determine what is happening in the area around you but you can't determine what is happening out of shouting range.

I also don't pay daily attention to the stock market but can give you an answer to whether any indexes are going up or down. Just by using past knowledge and making some assumptions.

Quote:
2. That only effects you, you don't know if there is another guy in the same room selling the same thing for less but none are being sold.

That's fine, if mine are selling even though the others guys are priced less what do I care? (my example for this point stated you can't keep your stuff in stock.)

Quote:
3. Maybe they just can't find you and now that you lowered your prices you are actually selling below market value.

Also try adjusting where you are located, shout the wares you have for sale, market yourself and your wares!

Thanks for not resorting to name-calling and instead provide rational discussion. My real point is that a lot of people want hard figures for min/maxing and these things don't have to exist for the system to work.

Do I want an AH? Not really, this system CAN work if some changes are made.
Do I want a simple, easy, quick and responsive (including search) system for working with retainers? You bet.


Edited, Oct 11th 2010 2:47pm by windexy
#82 Oct 11 2010 at 1:49 PM Rating: Good
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windexy wrote:
Quote:
1. That requires you to be everywhere at once and hear what everyone is saying, you might be able to determine what is happening in the area around you but you can't determine what is happening out of shouting range.

I also don't pay daily attention to the stock market but can give you an answer to whether any indexes are going up or down. Just by using past knowledge and making some assumptions.

Quote:
2. That only effects you, you don't know if there is another guy in the same room selling the same thing for less but none are being sold.

That's fine, if mine are selling even though the others guys are priced less what do I care?

Quote:
3. Maybe they just can't find you and now that you lowered your prices you are actually selling below market value.

Also try adjusting where you are located, shout the wares you have for sale, market yourself and your wares!

Thanks for not resorting to name-calling and instead provide rational discussion. My real point is that a lot of people want hard figures for min/maxing and these things don't have to exist for the system to work.

Do I want an AH? Not really, this system CAN work if some changes are made.
Do I want a simple, easy, quick and responsive system for working with retainers? You bet.

Edited, Oct 11th 2010 2:43pm by windexy

Edited, Oct 11th 2010 2:43pm by windexy


1 . You only know about the stock market changes because they are available results, you have no clue what all the other players in the world or selling. Without asking every single one of them you do not know the exact supply or demand.

2. Yeah but another thing is that you could be the other guy, and no matter what your prices are no one will ever see them.

3. You can shout but that does not guarantee that your market audience will hear you. Also I don't think shouts go that far. Another thing is that your retainer cannot talk. Also once everyone starts shouting to sell all their wares then people will just ignore you, just think about Jeuno from XI. I would just ignore the loads of shouts going on in there.

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Carl - "That is what forgiveness sounds like, screaming and then silence."
#83 Oct 11 2010 at 2:51 PM Rating: Excellent
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Anyone using FFXI Jeuno or Rolanberry Fields (or for the cool servers, Sauromugue Champaign!) bazaar marts as an example in support of FFXIV's bazaar/ward system is completely missing the point. Why did anyone bazaar in those places in XI? NEVER because they just thought it was cool to look through people's sack of stuff for sale. Here are the reasons people use bazaars in XI:

1. Items that can't be sold on AH but can be bazaared.
This is by far the most significant category. Dynamis currency, Ancient Beastcoins, Kirin's Osodes, Hakutaku pop items, Abyssea NM pop items, magian weapon upgrade items. If people COULD sell this stuff on the AH, they **** well would. And I don't mind a few special things like that being non-AH items. I do mind BASIC leveling equipment being hard to find. Hunting for level appropriate gear for hours just to play on a rank 15 class is absurd.

2. Exorbitant AH fees or infrequently sold items. If you're putting up a 10mil+ item, you might not want to spend a big tax just to post it on the AH. Or if you're trying to sell something that's uncommon and might not have high demand, in XI you may just have it sent back to you unsold and be out the fee. Bazaar makes sense here.

3. Not enough AH slots. The crafter's dilemma. 7 AH slots at a time, somebody leveling up a craft = you get lots of stuff to sell way faster than you can put them up on AH. Again, this is fair. Park outside an appropriate guild or in a bazaar, and even if you don't sell your stuff you can slowly put them up on AH (and/or AH them through mules) and eventually get rid of them. Plus, you could look at XI's system as an artificial barrier to powerleveling crafting, intentionally slowing crafters down to deal with their surplus goods. In XIV S-E seems to want to really emphasize crafting, so putting more roadblocks up is really nothing but an annoyance to what seems to be a key emphasis of the game!

4. Odd convenience things.
This is the guy in the LS who puts up food or potions for sale for everyone about to enter an event, the enterprising fellow who parks outside of sky with sneak/invis potions, etc. Again, this is fine, but insisting EVERYONE do their sales this way? Crazy talk.

So you see, Bazaar wasn't for FUN. It was out of necessity, but nobody minded too much because the AH system was solid and allowed people to buy stuff in a fairly convenient way.

****

Now, look at one of the common complaints of FFXI - starting AHes were not linked (this is also an issue that eventually died out simply because people abandoned the starter city AHes). This led to people from Bastok not being able to buy stuff put up for sale in Windurst. The player base had a reasonable solution of congregating in one main city and using the AH there, and the starter city AHes were left for basic low level stuff. Once players advanced enough to access Jeuno, home city AHes became largely irrelevant.

Two possibilities here:
(a) S-E learned nothing from this lesson. Because now there are messy market wards in ALL THREE CITIES. There's no central gathering place, so it's really 3x the problem of just "I can't find this axe in Gridania". Are you expected to ALSO search the hellish wards in Limsa and Ul'dah?

(b) Maybe this is the solution.
Maybe a Jeuno-like "main" city will be coming, WITH AH, and S-E just ignored AHes in the starter cities because they knew they would eventually be obsolete. I can only hope this is the answer, or that if it wasn't intended maybe S-E does come around to it ASAP.

I want XIV to work, but this issue above all else will cause me to quit the game. I'm sure I'm not alone, and a game actively driving customers away is not good for anyone who does want XIV to do well, whether you can handle the ward system and no AH or not. Renaming the wards is NOT an acceptable solution. I'll give them until the end of 2010 to tell me something better or I'm gone. I don't want to hear defenses and people telling me I need to use my precious time to party up to craft, make my friends craft me stuff, or hunt through wards with me. Enjoy playing your fundamentally broken MMO if you can handle it. I can't.

Edited, Oct 11th 2010 5:04pm by Anza
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#84 Oct 11 2010 at 3:21 PM Rating: Good
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Anza wrote:
Anyone using FFXI Jeuno or Rolanberry Fields (or for the cool servers, Sauromugue Champaign!) bazaar marts as an example in support of FFXIV's bazaar/ward system is completely missing the point. Why did anyone bazaar in those places in XI? NEVER because they just thought it was cool to look through people's sack of stuff for sale. Here are the reasons people use bazaars in XI:

1. Items that can't be sold on AH but can be bazaared.
This is by far the most significant category. Dynamis currency, Ancient Beastcoins, Kirin's Osodes, Hakutaku pop items, Abyssea NM pop items, magian weapon upgrade items. If people COULD sell this stuff on the AH, they **** well would. And I don't mind a few special things like that being non-AH items. I do mind BASIC leveling equipment being hard to find. Hunting for level appropriate gear for hours just to play on a rank 15 class is absurd.

2. Exorbitant AH fees or infrequently sold items. If you're putting up a 10mil+ item, you might not want to spend a big tax just to post it on the AH. Or if you're trying to sell something that's uncommon and might not have high demand, in XI you may just have it sent back to you unsold and be out the fee. Bazaar makes sense here.

3. Not enough AH slots. The crafter's dilemma. 7 AH slots at a time, somebody leveling up a craft = you get lots of stuff to sell way faster than you can put them up on AH. Again, this is fair. Park outside an appropriate guild or in a bazaar, and even if you don't sell your stuff you can slowly put them up on AH (and/or AH them through mules) and eventually get rid of them. Plus, you could look at XI's system as an artificial barrier to powerleveling crafting, intentionally slowing crafters down to deal with their surplus goods. In XIV S-E seems to want to really emphasize crafting, so putting more roadblocks up is really nothing but an annoyance to what seems to be a key emphasis of the game!

4. Odd convenience things.
This is the guy in the LS who puts up food or potions for sale for everyone about to enter an event, the enterprising fellow who parks outside of sky with sneak/invis potions, etc. Again, this is fine, but insisting EVERYONE do their sales this way? Crazy talk.

So you see, Bazaar wasn't for FUN. It was out of necessity, but nobody minded too much because the AH system was solid and allowed people to buy stuff in a fairly convenient way.

****

Now, look at one of the common complaints of FFXI - starting AHes were not linked (this is also an issue that eventually died out simply because people abandoned the starter city AHes). This led to people from Bastok not being able to buy stuff put up for sale in Windurst. The player base had a reasonable solution of congregating in one main city and using the AH there, and the starter city AHes were left for basic low level stuff. Once players advanced enough to access Jeuno, home city AHes became largely irrelevant.

Two possibilities here:
(a) S-E learned nothing from this lesson. Because now there are messy market wards in ALL THREE CITIES. There's no central gathering place, so it's really 3x the problem of just "I can't find this axe in Gridania". Are you expected to ALSO search the hellish wards in Limsa and Ul'dah?

(b) Maybe this is the solution.
Maybe a Jeuno-like "main" city will be coming, WITH AH, and S-E just ignored AHes in the starter cities because they knew they would eventually be obsolete. I can only hope this is the answer, or that if it wasn't intended maybe S-E does come around to it ASAP.

I want XIV to work, but this issue above all else will cause me to quit the game. I'm sure I'm not alone, and a game actively driving customers away is not good for anyone who does want XIV to do well, whether you can handle the ward system and no AH or not. Renaming the wards is NOT an acceptable solution. I'll give them until the end of 2010 to tell me something better or I'm gone. I don't want to hear defenses and people telling me I need to use my precious time to party up to craft, make my friends craft me stuff, or hunt through wards with me. Enjoy playing your fundamentally broken MMO if you can handle it. I can't.

Edited, Oct 11th 2010 5:04pm by Anza



This matches my feelings exactly, well said.
#85 Oct 11 2010 at 4:04 PM Rating: Good
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Well said Anza.
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#86 Oct 11 2010 at 4:05 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:

1 . You only know about the stock market changes because they are available results, you have no clue what all the other players in the world or selling. Without asking every single one of them you do not know the exact supply or demand.

2. Yeah but another thing is that you could be the other guy, and no matter what your prices are no one will ever see them.

3. You can shout but that does not guarantee that your market audience will hear you. Also I don't think shouts go that far. Another thing is that your retainer cannot talk. Also once everyone starts shouting to sell all their wares then people will just ignore you, just think about Jeuno from XI. I would just ignore the loads of shouts going on in there.


All valid points.

I'm going to change directions because we could keep going on like this for days =P

Due to the interdependence of crafts and lack of AH I find myself interacting with my LS and the rest of the world a lot more. When one of us needs parts from multiple suppliers they are there to provide all the materials required. The level of cooperation required is very high and is what I am liking the most about the way the entire system is setup. On the other side everything can also be done solo but at a different cost.

A competing link shell needed someone to crank out a bunch of materials with their provided goods, I accepted and over the next week went from lvl 21 to 27 in my craft. I in in turn needed vast amounts of ore converted to nuggets so I asked one of our miners. He happened to be over loaded with the ore I needed and was more than happy to let me have it for inv+12. I find this to be part of the fun. I don't think the above would have happened if not for the current system.

I also find the lack of AH (sales history actually) allows you to actually sell things for what it cost to make them. Without the history you don't have to worry that the price of object y may have been low last week because material x was in high supply but now material x costs 10k more.

Unfortunately the same complaint of "never being sure" can be made but I guess that's where I disagree that it's a problem.

Going back to the example I was using stocks in, I don't need to see every bazaar on the server to tell the price of crystals and shards and many other items. Based on playing the game and paying attention to prices and making averages in my head I know some prices are too high and some are low. It does not need to be an exact science. It is a game, it's supposed to be fun sometimes you get one over on someone and sometimes someone gets one over on you but more often then not everyone plays fairly and just wants to make a little something on top of their costs of making and item.
#87 Oct 11 2010 at 4:16 PM Rating: Excellent
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windexy wrote:
Quote:

1 . You only know about the stock market changes because they are available results, you have no clue what all the other players in the world or selling. Without asking every single one of them you do not know the exact supply or demand.

2. Yeah but another thing is that you could be the other guy, and no matter what your prices are no one will ever see them.

3. You can shout but that does not guarantee that your market audience will hear you. Also I don't think shouts go that far. Another thing is that your retainer cannot talk. Also once everyone starts shouting to sell all their wares then people will just ignore you, just think about Jeuno from XI. I would just ignore the loads of shouts going on in there.


All valid points.

I'm going to change directions because we could keep going on like this for days =P

Due to the interdependence of crafts and lack of AH I find myself interacting with my LS and the rest of the world a lot more. When one of us needs parts from multiple suppliers they are there to provide all the materials required. The level of cooperation required is very high and is what I am liking the most about the way the entire system is setup. On the other side everything can also be done solo but at a different cost.

A competing link shell needed someone to crank out a bunch of materials with their provided goods, I accepted and over the next week went from lvl 21 to 27 in my craft. I in in turn needed vast amounts of ore converted to nuggets so I asked one of our miners. He happened to be over loaded with the ore I needed and was more than happy to let me have it for inv+12. I find this to be part of the fun. I don't think the above would have happened if not for the current system.

I also find the lack of AH (sales history actually) allows you to actually sell things for what it cost to make them. Without the history you don't have to worry that the price of object y may have been low last week because material x was in high supply but now material x costs 10k more.

Unfortunately the same complaint of "never being sure" can be made but I guess that's where I disagree that it's a problem.

Going back to the example I was using stocks in, I don't need to see every bazaar on the server to tell the price of crystals and shards and many other items. Based on playing the game and paying attention to prices and making averages in my head I know some prices are too high and some are low. It does not need to be an exact science. It is a game, it's supposed to be fun sometimes you get one over on someone and sometimes someone gets one over on you but more often then not everyone plays fairly and just wants to make a little something on top of their costs of making and item.



I agree with the cross linkshell communications and the social interaction part, that is a nice side effect. One problem I have right now is that I have a bunch of crap from mobs and I have no clue what they cost, so instead of dropping them in my Bazaar or putting them in my retainer I just drop them with a vendor because I have no clue what is worth anything.

Another thing you say is that you sell things at cost, however some items never come from anyone but rather drops, how would you classify their price?
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#88 Oct 12 2010 at 6:53 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Another thing you say is that you sell things at cost, however some items never come from anyone but rather drops, how would you classify their price?


The NPC prices set a ceiling for any instances when materials are in ZERO supply. Using the costs of copper ores and tin ores found at the miners guild and the price of bronze rivets from the arm guild you can extrapolate the price ceiling for most any item made from bronze. This can be applied to all products. The thing to keep in mind is that this is a price ceiling that assumes there is absolutely ZERO supply of an item otherwise.

This type of economics (mmo gaming) is really a fascinating study.

Drops are special because its worth is whatever you place on it or whatever the person who found it places on it. It was their time spent obtaining the item if they value their time at 10k g an hour and it took them 2 hours they might sell it for 20k... if its in high demand they are going to increase the price until people stop buying them. Whatever this price point is happens to be the items value because at this point people would rather do without than spend the money. Decide for yourself if the item the guy is selling is worth what they are selling it TO YOU and stop worrying about what its worth to everyone else.

Like I've said its not an exact science and I really doubt its meant to be.

Edited, Oct 12th 2010 7:55am by windexy

Edited, Oct 12th 2010 7:57am by windexy
#89 Oct 12 2010 at 8:01 AM Rating: Good
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F3rth wrote:

Auction house is easy mode.


What exactly is hard about clicking 300 bazaars and spamming anyone who might listen to find the item you want?

Time consuming does not equal hard.
#90 Oct 12 2010 at 11:07 AM Rating: Good
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I'm only using my retainer for storage and i still don't know if it's rlf people or retainers is what a tried buying from in this game.100k to 300k for gear in the teens turned me off for trusting (the community ) in this game.I'll craft my own gear when i buy the items for 100k to 300k to craft them. At least with a AH you know the Value of items when you want to sell them. God i miss the old AH.
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#91 Oct 12 2010 at 3:27 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Hey! I see you are a high level blacksmith. I am a high level carpenter. Would you like to work together and make some mining equipment and split the profits?!

Its called. . .

Hey I see you are mining that ore there and you're using a crappy pick axe. I've got a new pickaxe for sale if you would like it!

Its called. . .

Go into a carpenters guild and see what people are creating. Then offer them wood of that level for a discounted price!

You dont need an effing auction house to play this game. Learn to communicate and not rely on menus and you'll be fine. Jesus christ


All of these things you've recommended require entering into the horrible "server side verification" menus which everyone can't stand... Checking what weapons someone is using, etc... I personally have more fun grinding out farming for the mats I need than running around checking peoples' bazaars, equipment or trying to chat in laggy areas. The most fun I have in the game is grinding... That's saying something?!

At this point I'm ignoring the NPC bazaar wards, avoiding the UI (hello macros) and generally acting like a noob in my first mmo. Grinding and soloing. I have had some great social interactions so far in FFXIV that could only happen in a FF game! Fortunately none of my conversations have been about how I can try to meet someone in front of the "gear repair npc" in a certain city so we can trade mats b/c of no mail delivery system!

For the time being I am loving the game. That being said, in the back of my mind I know if the lack of a searchable "for sale list" commonly known as an Auction House isn't installed, as well as some solution to the menu lag, I know I won't continue. I feel sad b/c I really enjoy other aspects of the game so much! Crafting is much better than FFXI imo. I MADE A MAPLE SHIELD WITH MY OWN MATS!!!! :p

Edited, Oct 12th 2010 7:02pm by Beglariont
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