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Why SE might not be fixing known issuesFollow

#1 Oct 04 2010 at 4:25 PM Rating: Default
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The issues people are complaining about the most: UI, AH, lag etc are also the easiest to fix. You see, while these issues are annoying they are also known to be fixable and many people will just keep paying their monthly fee waiting for the fix because, really, there is no reason for them not to be fixed. So why they are not fixed now you ask? I have a theory.

Fixing these will draw attention to much deeper problems that are not easy to fix. In fact I don't know how to fix them without losing even more players.

Let's take a look at the Armoury system for once. Basically you can equip almost any skill on any class. Without restrictions this would be impossible to balance, everyone would be a tank that can also nuke, deal heavy melee damage, buff, enfeeble and cure. Imagine in FF XI you could utilize this system? Want to level THF - no problem, equip Madrigal from your LV75 BRD, Regen from your WHM, Utsusemi from NIN for a good measure and proceed soloing ITs from lv1 to lv50 (by that time you will be too bored to continue).

So, naturally, FF XIV has to put some restrictions. A good solution is to award SPs only for using your class "native" skills. This seems fair - it encourages people to use the class they are leveling. However this also means it's now impossible to get a predetermined amount of SPs from a mob similar to the XPs, this means you need to get "skillups" because there is no way to know how much the native skills contributed to every monster's death. Skillups are not bad by themselves, many games, including Square's own had them without infuriating players. However skillup system is easily exploited.

If you give a guaranteed portion of SP per action then people will hit highest level mobs, get crazy SPs, die, zombie, hit again and so on. So you need to hold the SPs off till the mob is dead but then it means you can accumulate crazy amount of SP by hitting a relatively high level on a low level character because you won't be leveling up and your hundredth hit will give as much SPs as the first even though you have already acquired enough SPs to be higher level than than the mob you are fighting and your SP per hit should be much lower (for example: lv1 hitting lv10 marmot gets 200 SP per hit, in a game like FFT you'd hit it three times, got 600 SP and leveled, getting, say, 150 SP for being a lv2 hititng a lv 10 and after five more hits you'd be a lv3, getting only 120 and all this while hitting harder and harder so the mob is probably long dead).

To prevent this you'd have to cap the SP from a mob but then people would reach the cap with their class native attack and proceed to nuke it with the equipped "alien" abilities because there are no skillups left anyways.

So there is no cap but there is also no guaranteed skillup, the system that we see now.
It works nicely for its purpose however it does seem to annoy players, forcing them to use lightest attack in hopes to get as many skillups as possible. Not to mention that there are about 10000 other MMOs that don't force players to grind RANDOM skillups. Some people like gambling and might enjoy this but it seems to me that they are a very small minority. At this moment very few people think about how bad is this system (skillups, not the Armoury itself) because they are distracted with other bugs. But are you really going to enjoy grinding these skillups when AH will be in the game? Unlike AH there is not much that can be done about it as I described above so it's not going to be "fixed". Of course, scraping this system and doing something that worked in other games (and I don't mean WoW, I mean other Square's games) could have solved this issue but Square seems so much invested into the Armoury that I am very skeptical.

And Armoury is just one thing that seems to be most obviously broken, I've only played for few days and did not see most of the game, if their flagship Armoury is as badly designed I cannot imagine what else is broken in a similar way. It appears that somebody at Square has realized this as well and now they are facing a hard decision. Fixing UI lag won't make or break this game at the moment. They need to know how to fix fundamentals or else they could as well shut down the servers right now.
#2 Oct 04 2010 at 4:34 PM Rating: Decent
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You have some valid points.

They do have restrictions on equiping actions. You can only equip so many IE the point system and they do less (damage, heal, buff..ect) if they are not your class actions.

It would be nice to see the lag go that would make the game much better along with the other issues they have.
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#3 Oct 04 2010 at 4:42 PM Rating: Good
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Yes except that abilities taken from another class are not as effective as though you were that class. Cross-discipline skills are dramatically less useful because you don't have the right attributes.

We'll see how effective a CON with Rampart is in the later levels.
#4 Oct 04 2010 at 4:44 PM Rating: Decent
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The points restriction applies uniformly to the "native" and "alien" skills.
#5 Oct 04 2010 at 4:46 PM Rating: Default
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Wolfums wrote:
Yes except that abilities taken from another class are not as effective as though you were that class. Cross-discipline skills are dramatically less useful because you don't have the right attributes.

We'll see how effective a CON with Rampart is in the later levels.


My GLD cured as much as my CON, maybe 10% less. I would not call it "dramatically less". If they were not useful the whole Armoury system would be pointless. They are supposed to be useful, making them useless would "fix" the system as well but as I said it would deter even more players.
#6 Oct 04 2010 at 4:52 PM Rating: Good
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"Best" skills depends on what you want to do. As a conjurer I already see three or four distinct paths I can take my class - I can stack my action bar with nukes and abilities that enhance my nukes, I can stack my bar with debuffs, I can stack my bar with buffs and cures... etc.

Right now I am more of a jack of all trades - but when we start seeing instances where we want 15/15 member parties it will actually make a lot more sense for only 1 or 2 mages to put buffs on their bars and the same with debuffs etc. Like right now I put choke and aero on my bar so I can choke + aero for more damage - but in a party where we need to take down something fast it would be way better to have 1 mage use choke - then another mage profundity+ Aero - while the other mage throws up another elemental debuff, and then blood rite +nuke for the nuker mage....

You see what I am saying? People who worry everyone will be the same really haven't played enough to understand the system.
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#7 Oct 04 2010 at 5:15 PM Rating: Excellent
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I disagree with pretty much everything the OP said. This game isn't suppose to play like FFXI. That in itself, is not a flaw. You are the sum of your parts across all classes. This eliminates cookie-cutter methods of playing a class, because unless you are top rank in all classes, you have different abilities and spells to choose from. This does not sound bad to me and I look forward to seeing how it works at higher ranks.

Here is my theory for why the UI and other issues aren't being addressed and were allowed to slip through the cracks: The people leading this development team are some stubborn bastards who believe themselves above the thinking of their paying customers.


Edited, Oct 4th 2010 7:16pm by Vawn43
#8 Oct 04 2010 at 5:32 PM Rating: Good
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HachiLihachi wrote:
My GLD cured as much as my CON, maybe 10% less. I would not call it "dramatically less". If they were not useful the whole Armoury system would be pointless. They are supposed to be useful, making them useless would "fix" the system as well but as I said it would deter even more players.
Your GLD cures may be as potent, but you will not have nearly as much mp to continue casting it as a CON would.
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#9 Oct 04 2010 at 5:39 PM Rating: Decent
Edited by bsphil
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Vawn43 wrote:
The people leading this development team are some stubborn bastards who believe themselves above the thinking of their paying customers

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#10 Oct 04 2010 at 5:42 PM Rating: Good
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Corthaemus wrote:
HachiLihachi wrote:
My GLD cured as much as my CON, maybe 10% less. I would not call it "dramatically less". If they were not useful the whole Armoury system would be pointless. They are supposed to be useful, making them useless would "fix" the system as well but as I said it would deter even more players.
Your GLD cures may be as potent, but you will not have nearly as much mp to continue casting it as a CON would.


and I don't believe he can cure AOE either... and no solid way of doing mp regen.
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When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#11 Oct 04 2010 at 6:57 PM Rating: Good
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Corthaemus wrote:
HachiLihachi wrote:
My GLD cured as much as my CON, maybe 10% less. I would not call it "dramatically less". If they were not useful the whole Armoury system would be pointless. They are supposed to be useful, making them useless would "fix" the system as well but as I said it would deter even more players.
Your GLD cures may be as potent, but you will not have nearly as much mp to continue casting it as a CON would.

Did you even play this game? Switching to GLD leaves exactly as much MP as switching to a crafter class. Not as much as CON but more than half. MP pool size is not a problem especially for GLD, with Stygian Spikes on you will be always at full MP whenever you are soloing. And it's true, AoE Cure does not work on GLD, not really a problem for a solo uber-class.

People arguing with me... I have not invented this system. Square did. This is how it works and how they described it should work. No point in raging against me. If you believe I am wrong - well then SP gain should become deterministic. Good luck waiting.
#12 Oct 04 2010 at 6:59 PM Rating: Decent
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My only question/concern with the way the system is that there is no rank limit to setting actions. It took me 10 ranks to learn Taunt action on my Pugilist. I can switch to Gladiator rank 1 and then start immediately using that action?

I mean, it makes sense overall. I'm the same person and I've already learned how to use that ability so why shouldn't I be able to use it just because I'm using a different weapon? -- Flip side though.. Say I leveled X job to rank 50. Would I then be able to trick out my rank 1 job with those high-end actions (granted I have enough points with which to set them)?
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#13 Oct 04 2010 at 7:02 PM Rating: Good
It's just as likely that you're going to walk down the street tomorrow and find Elvis having tea with JFK on a patio somewhere as it is that SE isn't working to address the game's biggest issues. Adding an AH is an easy fix? You must be on crack. It's an easy concept to consider. It's not an easy system to implement.
#14 Oct 04 2010 at 7:19 PM Rating: Decent
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HachiLihachi wrote:
My GLD cured as much as my CON, maybe 10% less. I would not call it "dramatically less". If they were not useful the whole Armoury system would be pointless. They are supposed to be useful, making them useless would "fix" the system as well but as I said it would deter even more players.


That's an example of one skill with one different class. This isn't the same for every skill, it's not "any skill you use only gets 10% less effective". For instance Bloodbath from Marauder gets about a ~20% reduction in health returned when used on lancer, making it a mediocre ability at best. This was something I tested in Open Beta, I don't believe it's different now.

AshlarThePaladin wrote:
My only question/concern with the way the system is that there is no rank limit to setting actions. It took me 10 ranks to learn Taunt action on my Pugilist. I can switch to Gladiator rank 1 and then start immediately using that action?


Yes but you need AP to assign abilities to slots. When you switch to Gladiator rank 1 you will have substantially less AP, thus you will have to pick which abilities you want carefully when going to a lower rank character. Also because of this AP drop at low levels you often have to sacrifice abilities from your main class to get ones from others, which sometimes doesn't work well.

Quote:
It's just as likely that you're going to walk down the street tomorrow and find Elvis having tea with JFK on a patio somewhere as it is that SE isn't working to address the game's biggest issues. Adding an AH is an easy fix? You must be on crack. It's an easy concept to consider. It's not an easy system to implement.


+1



Edited, Oct 4th 2010 9:22pm by BRizzl3
#15 Oct 04 2010 at 7:49 PM Rating: Decent
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AshlarThePaladin wrote:
My only question/concern with the way the system is that there is no rank limit to setting actions. It took me 10 ranks to learn Taunt action on my Pugilist. I can switch to Gladiator rank 1 and then start immediately using that action?

I mean, it makes sense overall. I'm the same person and I've already learned how to use that ability so why shouldn't I be able to use it just because I'm using a different weapon? -- Flip side though.. Say I leveled X job to rank 50. Would I then be able to trick out my rank 1 job with those high-end actions (granted I have enough points with which to set them)?


Heh I found this very same thing odd. But what I also found odd is that my rank 1 Pugilist has more hp then my rank 11 THM!
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#16 Oct 04 2010 at 9:17 PM Rating: Decent
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The One and Only Aurelius wrote:
It's just as likely that you're going to walk down the street tomorrow and find Elvis having tea with JFK on a patio somewhere as it is that SE isn't working to address the game's biggest issues. Adding an AH is an easy fix? You must be on crack. It's an easy concept to consider. It's not an easy system to implement.

SE might be working to address the game biggest issues however they might not be what you think they are. I am not SE though and have only shipped four games in my life, but to me 6 months to fix UI layout seem a bit too much. It might be an impossible endeavor for you but you also don't have 3 MMOs with millions of subscribers under your name, do you? Companies that run MMO servers and run MMOs with quarterly update schedules (like FF XI) usually don't have problems implementing trivial things like AH. If now it takes them more than 6 months to add Ctrl-R to chat then, again, SE can just as well shutdown servers now because at this rate making an expansion will take them 600+ years or so.
#17 Oct 04 2010 at 9:23 PM Rating: Decent
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jakarai wrote:
AshlarThePaladin wrote:
My only question/concern with the way the system is that there is no rank limit to setting actions. It took me 10 ranks to learn Taunt action on my Pugilist. I can switch to Gladiator rank 1 and then start immediately using that action?

I mean, it makes sense overall. I'm the same person and I've already learned how to use that ability so why shouldn't I be able to use it just because I'm using a different weapon? -- Flip side though.. Say I leveled X job to rank 50. Would I then be able to trick out my rank 1 job with those high-end actions (granted I have enough points with which to set them)?


Heh I found this very same thing odd. But what I also found odd is that my rank 1 Pugilist has more hp then my rank 11 THM!


Per what Ashlar said, it would be interesting to see what happens with higher level skills like that, but keep in mind that after playing so many classes and gaining so many skills, you can still only set a certain number of them and they only have usefulness depending on what your character is doing at the time. A rank 50 spell may be pretty frickin sweet to stick onto a low level Pugilist (randomly chosen, so don't correct me!), but a rank 1 pugilist may not have the points to equip it, or the MP to use it. And, really, if you're rank 50 in one class and you're taking advantage of the multi-class format of the game, then you probably wouldn't run into that issue :P

To what Jakarai said, each class has different stat inflations, if you will. I'm sure you've already noticed, but it makes sense for a pugilist of any rank to have a good deal more HP than a thaumaturge (I'm sure it's not as true if the THM is a much higher rank). Even with the same amount of VIT, each class will have a different max HP (Likewise with MND and MP). I think this may be something that people are not paying close attention to. You could pump every stat point you get into STR, but if you somehow became a conjurer that fought with melee, you wouldn't be able to beat anything to death very effectively!
Of course, you may already understand all of this and I'm just sounding stupid, but that's why your pugilist has more HP.
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