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Learn japanese with FFXIV, how?Follow

#1 Oct 05 2010 at 5:58 AM Rating: Good
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So I want to learn japanese with FFXIV. I did this with world of warcraft and french. Now I can talk fluent french after 1 year with an extremly bad grammar! But bad grammar or not, I don't care.
But how do I do this? In world of warcraft, I just choosed a french realm and then I started learning, easy!

But I assume it's different with FFXIV?
What do I need to do?
Do I have to buy the japanese version of FFXIV?
Can I use the europe version of FFXIV and jump in to a japanese realm?
My computer can't write in Japanese, will this affect writing japanese in FFXIV?
Where can I buy the Japanese version of FFXIV?
Can I have the whole game UI (npc talking, weapons, actions) in english? Meanwhile when people talk, then it's in japanese?

I apprechiate all help.
#2 Oct 05 2010 at 5:59 AM Rating: Good
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You should work on English first.
#3 Oct 05 2010 at 6:00 AM Rating: Good
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xthunderblazex wrote:
You should work on your English first.
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#4 Oct 05 2010 at 6:04 AM Rating: Good
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Pfft, English doesn't have to be possessive.
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#5 Oct 05 2010 at 6:06 AM Rating: Default
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zamtadin wrote:
So I want to learn japanese with FFXIV. I did this with world of warcraft and french. Now I can talk fluent french after 1 year with an extremly bad grammar! But bad grammar or not, I don't care.
But how do I do this? In world of warcraft, I just choosed a french realm and then I started learning, easy!

But I assume it's different with FFXIV?
What do I need to do?
Do I have to buy the japanese version of FFXIV?
Can I use the europe version of FFXIV and jump in to a japanese realm?
My computer can't write in Japanese, will this affect writing japanese in FFXIV?
Where can I buy the Japanese version of FFXIV?
Can I have the whole game UI (npc talking, weapons, actions) in english? Meanwhile when people talk, then it's in japanese?

I apprechiate all help.


xthunderblazex wrote:
You should work on English first.


Kordain wrote:
xthunderblazex wrote:
You should work on your English first.



I find it funny that some troll starts a thread and we get a double nerd rage over grammar. ****CLASSIC****

#6 Oct 05 2010 at 6:12 AM Rating: Good
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Strai wrote:
Pfft, English doesn't have to be possessive.


In this case, it does. Not using a possessive indicates a lack of the noun. Clearly he knows English, therefore needs to work on HIS English, not English in general. Although if he wishes to make improvements to English as a whole that is fine by me!
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#7 Oct 05 2010 at 6:23 AM Rating: Decent
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There's a major difference between Japanese, English and French and that's the characters used in each language. French and English use a similar set where as the Japanese use two (or three?) Of their own.

You've also got a major time difference. Japan's midnight is around 4pm (depending on BST) in the UK so you've got to be around when the Japanese players are.

These are just two hurdles. You will encounter more with cultural differences and what not. I shalln't comment on how helpful the Japanese are as a nation as I have no idea.
#8 Oct 05 2010 at 6:28 AM Rating: Decent
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Kordain wrote:
Strai wrote:
Pfft, English doesn't have to be possessive.


In this case, it does. Not using a possessive indicates a lack of the noun. Clearly he knows English, therefore needs to work on HIS English, not English in general. Although if he wishes to make improvements to English as a whole that is fine by me!



Really? I though "You should work on English" has the noun in you. Forcing a possessive in there would be like forcing "I will learn English" vs. "I will learn my English"
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#9 Oct 05 2010 at 6:34 AM Rating: Decent
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Learn the correct letters out-of-game first, then use that knowledge to learn vocabulary&grammar like you did with French.

Learning Kanji is a crucial part of learning Japanese and you are not going to learn it in-game. It's not that hard though, you can use programs like Anki (google) to help you. The grammar is rather simple and I'm sure if you can handle kanji and kana you can learn the grammar and vocabulary rather easily.
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#10 Oct 05 2010 at 6:47 AM Rating: Excellent
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It will funny to make a friend who do not speak enlish in FFXIV

I'm poor in english,Can we be friends?lol
#11 Oct 05 2010 at 6:56 AM Rating: Default
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{Please use the Auto-Translate function.}
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#12 Oct 05 2010 at 6:57 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Learn the correct letters out-of-game first, then use that knowledge to learn vocabulary&grammar like you did with French.

Learning Kanji is a crucial part of learning Japanese and you are not going to learn it in-game. It's not that hard though, you can use programs like Anki (google) to help you. The grammar is rather simple and I'm sure if you can handle kanji and kana you can learn the grammar and vocabulary rather easily.


Perhaps its just me, but I'd have to say Japanese grammar is anything but simple from the perspective of someone whose native language is English.
#13 Oct 05 2010 at 7:12 AM Rating: Good
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sadly i know some japanese

being half Japanese.. my dad's Japanese lol

one thing i always thought was odd is how come in English its japan but in japan its ippon (sp?)

i also speak spanish as i live in south texas and if you dont habla espanol tu vida tengo mucho problema y es mas mas malo

i dont spell or use proper grammar in all three languages and i dont use a auto translator to do so either because im lazy like alot of Americans =P i got alot of that from my dad growing up for instance my father and his parents always talked about how lazy fat and stupid Americans were though i didnt really know what they were saying until years of hearing them talk and learning the language little by little then thinking back on their past conversations.

its a wonder he married my mother and had me and my sister hating Americans so much. my grandparents moved back to japan when i was still very little from what i am told i lived in japan til i was 3 though i only remember SOME of it as i was a toddler..

to this day i am still not 100% fluent in any language but English but years or writing reading speaking in Japanese and Spanish i tend to get alot of misspelled words improper grammar ect ect when i do try so i just dont bother

funny story when i was a kid i thought my nickname was baka-yaro cause thats what my grandparents referred to me as and what they called me when they were calling me to come inside for dinner ect.. which is one of the reasons i refer to them as genma yoshiko and oosan takao. and dont properly address them as "grandfather" or "Grandmother" but as the before mention or i just say in english "nice to see you my dads parents" which they hate but F them lol

Edited, Oct 5th 2010 8:14am by Galkaholics
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#14 Oct 05 2010 at 7:55 AM Rating: Excellent
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So many posts but not one answer to any of my questions.
Well excuse me for not caring about my spelling in english. It's not my fault that I can speak english, swedish and spanish fluent but having trouble writing ;). I don't see that there's a point of spelling correctly. I can write in french, but I talk it like crap.
so EXCUUUUUUUSE MEEE for knowing so many languages!
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#15 Oct 05 2010 at 9:05 AM Rating: Good
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ThePacster wrote:
Quote:
Learn the correct letters out-of-game first, then use that knowledge to learn vocabulary&grammar like you did with French.

Learning Kanji is a crucial part of learning Japanese and you are not going to learn it in-game. It's not that hard though, you can use programs like Anki (google) to help you. The grammar is rather simple and I'm sure if you can handle kanji and kana you can learn the grammar and vocabulary rather easily.


Perhaps its just me, but I'd have to say Japanese grammar is anything but simple from the perspective of someone whose native language is English.


No, Japanese grammar actually is fairly simple. To be fair, English grammar is also fairly simple.

The two grammars are very different from one another (which is why it can be difficult for an English speaker to learn Japanese grammar), but neither is notably complex.
#16 Oct 05 2010 at 9:06 AM Rating: Decent
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I'm just going to have to agree to disagree with you on that.
#17 Oct 05 2010 at 9:13 AM Rating: Excellent
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BastokFL wrote:
ThePacster wrote:
Quote:
Learn the correct letters out-of-game first, then use that knowledge to learn vocabulary&grammar like you did with French.

Learning Kanji is a crucial part of learning Japanese and you are not going to learn it in-game. It's not that hard though, you can use programs like Anki (google) to help you. The grammar is rather simple and I'm sure if you can handle kanji and kana you can learn the grammar and vocabulary rather easily.


Perhaps its just me, but I'd have to say Japanese grammar is anything but simple from the perspective of someone whose native language is English.


No, Japanese grammar actually is fairly simple. To be fair, English grammar is also fairly simple.

The two grammars are very different from one another (which is why it can be difficult for an English speaker to learn Japanese grammar), but neither is notably complex.


English conjugates are a lot trickier, and there tend to be a lot more exceptions to what can only laughingly be called "rules" in English.

Japanese on the other hand has very few exceptions to rules and conjugates tend to be pretty straight-forward if you see enough of them. The grammar is also pretty easy to decipher. The hardest part for me was always the vocabulary (partially due to the aforementioned conjugation issues)
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#18 Oct 05 2010 at 9:16 AM Rating: Good
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Apart from vocabulary, the having to juggle between kudaketa hanashikata (casual friend speech), teineigo (polite speech), sonkeigo (honorific speech), and kenjougo (humble speech) depending on who I talk to on a day to day basis is what is perplexing. Especially the last two since most of my Japanese friends can't even speak them that well. :P

Edited, Oct 5th 2010 11:16am by ThePacster
#19 Oct 05 2010 at 2:13 PM Rating: Good
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zamtadin wrote:
So I want to learn japanese with FFXIV. I did this with world of warcraft and french. Now I can talk fluent french after 1 year with an extremly bad grammar! But bad grammar or not, I don't care.
But how do I do this? In world of warcraft, I just choosed a french realm and then I started learning, easy!

But I assume it's different with FFXIV?
What do I need to do?
Do I have to buy the japanese version of FFXIV?
Can I use the europe version of FFXIV and jump in to a japanese realm?
My computer can't write in Japanese, will this affect writing japanese in FFXIV?
Where can I buy the Japanese version of FFXIV?
Can I have the whole game UI (npc talking, weapons, actions) in english? Meanwhile when people talk, then it's in japanese?

I apprechiate all help.


You don't need to buy the Japanese version; as long as you have your IME set up for Japanese, you should be fine.

There are no Japanese realms. All regions play on all servers. If you want to see more Japanese, you might try playing at prime time hours for Japan.

You need to download Japanese support for your PC; you should be able to do this for free from Microsoft.

You don't need the Japanese version of FFXIV.

If you select english as your language when you set up, you will see the UI, system messages and NPC dialog in English. You will see players talking in Japanese in Japanese, unless they're using the auto-translator in which case you will see the auto-translator phrases in English; not much you can do about that.

Frankly, trying to "pick up" Japanese like you did French doesn't seem terribly likely. You share an alphabet, fair amount of common vocabulary and many grammar similarities with a French speaker, because both are Indo-European languages and English borrowed a huge number of French words with the Norman Conquest. You're not going to any commonality to build upon with Japanese speakers. Japanese is notorious for being difficult for speakers of Western languages to learn (and vice-versa). But I suppose the auto-translate might help. I wish you luck.
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#20 Oct 05 2010 at 2:22 PM Rating: Decent
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Good luck learning all 3000 or so Kanji characters that the average fluent Japanese speaker knows..
#21 Oct 05 2010 at 2:36 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Good luck learning all 3000 or so Kanji characters


Actually more or less 2000 Kanjis are used for 95 % of everything in Japanese.
If you know them, you will be more than be able to read any conversation.

Also, Kanjis are made of diffrent symbols that are attached one to another (it's not sound-based, but meaning-based) meaning you can actually "read", even with a few hundred Kanjis under your belt.

For all the foreign language and for the use of phonetics, Katakanas are used, and, really, it's around 130 sounds.

Hiraganas, which is used with Kanjis, are even simpler than Katakanas, and it work the same than the former.

Personnaly, I am speaking only with my humble knowledge. I will admit that I actually studying it as an hobby as of now and know almost by heart all the Hiraganas, about half of the Katakanas and only a few Kanjis. I was still able to read and understand basic japanese. See Bastok's post a bit below.


EDIT: Misinformations

Edited, Oct 5th 2010 5:45pm by MisterRandy
#22 Oct 05 2010 at 2:40 PM Rating: Good
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I do suggest this:

http://www.guidetojapanese.org/learn/grammar

If you want to learn japanese. More awesome guide I've ever found for it.
#23 Oct 05 2010 at 2:41 PM Rating: Decent
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MisterRandy wrote:
Quote:
Good luck learning all 3000 or so Kanji characters


Actually more or less 1000 Kanjis are used for 95 % of everything in Japanese.
If you know them, you will be more than be able to read any conversation.

****. My Japanese teacher in college lied to me, then. :(
#24 Oct 05 2010 at 2:46 PM Rating: Excellent
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SoumaKyou wrote:
MisterRandy wrote:
Quote:
Good luck learning all 3000 or so Kanji characters


Actually more or less 1000 Kanjis are used for 95 % of everything in Japanese.
If you know them, you will be more than be able to read any conversation.

****. My Japanese teacher in college lied to me, then. :(


No reason not to keep building your vocabulary... when you think about it, 3000 isn't that many. Compare it to the number of English words you know... Now how many of those do you have to sound out? Probably zero, you just know them. Learning kanji is no different, it's just a matter of knowing what the kanji says and means, same as any other language
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#25 Oct 05 2010 at 2:50 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
MisterRandy wrote:
Quote:
Good luck learning all 3000 or so Kanji characters


Actually more or less 1000 Kanjis are used for 95 % of everything in Japanese.
If you know them, you will be more than be able to read any conversation.

****. My Japanese teacher in college lied to me, then. :(


Well, there's 3000+ Kanjis, so he's right but the chance you'll ever use the last 2000 (5%) as often than the other 1000 are less greater. I'll personnaly go and learn the first 2000 Kanjis before looking the the other 2000 and tell myself if I should go for the last 2000 or try to learn the last 5% on the fly when I see them.

EDIT: Misinformations

Edited, Oct 5th 2010 5:46pm by MisterRandy
#26 Oct 05 2010 at 2:51 PM Rating: Good
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MisterRandy wrote:
I'll personnaly go and learn the first 1000 Kanjis before looking the the other 2000 and tell myself if I should go for the last 2000 or try to learn the last 5% on the fly when I see them.


Pretty much this

Once you have a basic understanding and a decent number of kanji, you can get by and just learn new ones as they come up
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#27 Oct 05 2010 at 3:01 PM Rating: Decent
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I don't understand how you learned to be fluent in french playing a game where communication is via text. Becoming fluent in a language usually requires verbal communication.
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#28 Oct 05 2010 at 3:09 PM Rating: Excellent
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Archmage Callinon wrote:
English conjugates are a lot trickier, and there tend to be a lot more exceptions to what can only laughingly be called "rules" in English.

Japanese on the other hand has very few exceptions to rules and conjugates tend to be pretty straight-forward if you see enough of them. The grammar is also pretty easy to decipher. The hardest part for me was always the vocabulary (partially due to the aforementioned conjugation issues)


Regular English verbs have exactly four forms - basic form (bare stem), 3rd-person singular (stem+"s", the sole carryover from the Old English system of infections for person and number), gerund-participle (stem+"ing"), and past-participle (stem+"ed"), and there is only one class of regular verb. Some 75% of all English verbs are regular. The vast majority of irregular verbs still only have four or five forms and all but four of them are perfectly regular in the non-past (i.e. stem, stem+"s", and stem+"ing"); these verbs generally have a separate form for the simple past tense instead of using the past-participle, change the stem vowel instead of adding -"ed", and cluster into large families with specific patterns of vowel changes. Tense, aspect, and mood are expressed with compound forms combining a base verb with one or more modal verbs, while voice is expressed via sentence structure; valency is generally flexible.

The copula, "be", is by far the most irregular verb in the entire language; two other common verbs, "do" and "come" are somewhat irregular, but not highly so ("do": do,does,doing,done, [simple past] did; "come": come, comes, coming, come, [simple past] came). The next most irregular verbs after "be" are "do" and "go" (go, goes, going, gone, [simple past] went), both of which are regular in two or three forms.

Adjectives have at most three forms: basic form (bare stem), comparative (stem+"er"), and superlative (stem+"est"). Longer adjectives will only have the basic form. Adjectives do not decline like in most other Indo-European languages, so adjective-noun agreement is never an issue. Only a small handful of adjectives are irregular.

Nouns fall into two categories - mass nouns and count nouns. Mass nouns have two forms, basic form (bare stem) and genitive (stem+"'s"). Count nouns have four forms, but when regular, three of those forms are phonemically identical - singular (bare stem), plural, genitive singular, genitive plural (the last three are each written differently, but phonemically identical for regular count nouns: stem+"s"). The overwhelming majority of nouns are regular, and genitive forms are regular without exception. Nouns never change by case - semantic role is determined by word order. Determiners (a/an, the, my, etc.) are obligatory unless speaking generically.

Pronouns have only three forms - direct, oblique, and genitive. They are irregular, but they are a closed set, and there's only seven of them: 1st-person singular (I/me/mine), 1st-person plural (we/us/ours), 2nd-person (you/you/yours), 3rd-person masculine singular (he/him/his), 3rd-person feminine singular (she/her/hers), 3rd-person neuter singular (it/it/its), and 3rd-person unspecified (they/them/theirs).

The "ed" (past participle verb) and "s" (3rd-person singular verb; plural and genitive noun) have varying phonetic realizations depending upon the immediately preceding sound that are without exception regular, pronounced /iz/ or /id/ after a dental with the same manner of articulation (/t/ and /d/ for "ed", /s/ and /z/ for "s"), /s/ or /t/ after an unvoiced non-dental consonant, and /z/ or /d/ elsewhere. Pronunciations do not change when words are compounded.

The spelling system is actually far more regular and exception-free than most people give it credit for, especially given that we are forced to write a language that has in excess of 40 unique phonemes (with different dialects not even making the same phonemic distinctions) using only 26 characters, in particular 14 vowel classes with an alphabet that only contains 5 vowels and 2 consonantal vowels.



Regular Japanese verbs have five forms - imperfective, continuative, terminal/attributive, hypothetical, and imperative. While nearly all Japanese verbs are regular, they fall into three classes - ichidan, godan, and stative (aka "adjectives"). A verb's class is generally readily apparent, but certain godan verbs resemble (or are homophones of) ichidan verbs. Many verb endings also vary depending upon a verb's class. Tense, aspect, mood, and voice are all expressed with a combination of endings and modal verbs, which, unlike in English. Valency is fixed, though there are several pairs of verbs that only differ in valency.

The copula, which is filtered on this site, is by far the most irregular verb in the language; two other common verbs, "suru" (to do) and "kuru" (to come) are also highly irregular, having no regular forms whatsoever. ("suru": sa/shi/se, shi, suru, sure, shiro/seyo/sei; "kuru": ko, ki, kuru, kure, koi)

Adjectives fall into two categories - i-adjectives (native Japanese "adjectives") which are grammatically a type of verb (see above), and na-adjectives (mostly borrowed from Chinese) which are grammatically a type of noun.

Nouns do not inflect. Semantic role is determined by post-positional particles. Determiners do not exist; features such as number and definiteness are determined by context.

Pronouns are grammatically identical to nouns. Unlike in English, they are an open class, with several pronouns having the same meaning - the choice of pronouns encodes significant honorific information.

Phonetic change over time means that u-row godan verbs have the unexpected (though totally regular) imperfective form of stem+"wa" (because the stem historically ends in -"w" - however in modern Japanese /w/ is only pronounced before /a/), which itself unexpectedly becomes stem +"o" when adding the volitional ending "-u" (which is one of the endings that changes with verb class; it's '-yoo" for ichidan verbs); in fact, since the godan volitional ending always changes the final vowel of the continuative form from "a" to "o", most learning materials simply present the volitional ending as a sixth form, despite this process being entirely regular.

Similarly, the final mora of the continuative form of godan verbs changes in unexpected but mostly regular ways when adding an ending that starts with "t" - "i" "chi" "ri" become a "t" (i.e. geminate the following consonant), "bi" "mi" "ni" become "n" and cause the following "t" to become voiced, "ki" becomes "i", and "gi" becomes "i" and voices the following "t" - and again, despite this being regular, most learning materials present the -"te" and -"ta" endings as seventh and eight forms, and describe the provisional ending as "-ta-form + ra" rather than "continuative form + tara".

Pronunciations can change in ways sometimes regular and sometimes not when words are compounded.

Kana spelling is for all intents and purposes completely regular - Kanji, on the other hand are not, with a kanji's pronunciation varying wildly with usage.
#29 Oct 05 2010 at 3:30 PM Rating: Good
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MisterRandy wrote:
Quote:
Good luck learning all 3000 or so Kanji characters


Actually more or less 1000 Kanjis are used for 95 % of everything in Japanese.
If you know them, you will be more than be able to read any conversation.


Well, there's an official list of slightly more than 2000 kanji which are taught to Japanese students in school. I assure you, knowing those kanji is not sufficient to read and understand most video-game text from the 16-bit era on. (8-bit games only used kana, due to hardware limitations.)

Quote:
Also, Kanjis are made of diffrent symbols that are attached one to another (it's not sound-based, but meaning-based) meaning you can actually "read", even with a few hundred Kanjis under your belt.


Common misconception.

The overwhelming majority of compound kanji, which are all those that consist of more than just a single radical, consist of two parts - a semantic part which suggests the meaning, and a phonetic part that suggests the (early Han-era Old Chinese) pronunciation. This type of kanji represents approximately 90% of all kanji.

To be more specific, the semantic part is itself a kanji or radical that has a similar or related meaning; the phonetic part is itself a kanji with a similar pronunciation (to be exact, with the same vowel and final consonant, and an initial consonant with the same place of articulation).
#30 Oct 05 2010 at 3:44 PM Rating: Good
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Oh ! I really though it was 1000 ^-^ ! Must have been 2000, then 2-3000 that forms 5%, my bad about it.


Thanks for correcting me also on the Kanjis' part. When I think about it, I used as a "fact" what was an observation of mine. My mistake again.
#31 Oct 05 2010 at 3:52 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
I don't understand how you learned to be fluent in french playing a game where communication is via text. Becoming fluent in a language usually requires verbal communication.
.

As the basis of my post:

French/Spanish/Italian : Latin based
English/German/Dutch (I think) : Germanic based



I am a french speaker myself and, as much as english and french doesn't have the same linguistic and writing base, it is not as bad to read either one. For you english people, the bad part is to learn the verbs and some of the accents. As for basix pronunciation, when I see an english speaking person trying to talk french in front of me, I do notice most of you got it, except, since english is germanic based, you use to be harder on the letters (I can't really explain that, you don't let the air going on your tongue enough meaby :) ).

I actually wonder if german is easier for a english to learn than french and spanish, I don't have anything to prove it, but I guess it could be kinda easier, no ?
#32 Oct 05 2010 at 4:47 PM Rating: Good
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MisterRandy wrote:
French/Spanish/Italian : Latin based
English/German/Dutch (I think) : Germanic based


Yup, Dutch is a Germanic language.

Quote:
I actually wonder if german is easier for a english to learn than french and spanish, I don't have anything to prove it, but I guess it could be kinda easier, no ?


German grammar and pronunciation is fairly easy for English-speakers to pick up, but because English has borrowed so many words from other languages, the vocabulary is harder.

On the other hand, English speakers have a bit of an advantage learning French vocabulary, since we borrowed huge chunks of it when the Normans ruled England, but the pronunciation and grammar isn't as easy for us to learn.
#33 Oct 05 2010 at 5:02 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
On the other hand, English speakers have a bit of an advantage learning French vocabulary, since we borrowed huge chunks of it when the Normans ruled England, but the pronunciation and grammar isn't as easy for us to learn.


I can confirm.

You have to live in Quebec (French speaking: 7m, English speaking: 200-500k) to fully understand it. It's funny to see both culture having problems to communicate sometimes (though I raely have to speak ONLY in english, unless in rare and sparse areas in Montreal, everywhere is french).

Edited, Oct 5th 2010 7:04pm by MisterRandy
#34 Oct 05 2010 at 6:17 PM Rating: Decent
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Japanese grammar is easy imo. Compared to when I was learning french, japanese just makes sense. Funnily enough, it makes even more sense if you read sentences backwards. Only ~3 irregular verbs is also a major plus. I love it compared to english; but that may have to do with me telling english laws to @#%^ off a long time ago. Likely somewhere around the time frame when I decided I would just make my own words like negify.

Learning and memorizing the japanese characters is a lot of work though. I'd wager hiragana took me about a month of lazy studying. I'd have finished katakana by now but I stopped my lessons when my school semester started back up. But yeah; you need to know kanji to get by. And you need to know katakana if you want to play pokemon before it gets translated. :D

(Also, nama-sensei is the best japanese teacher ever. EVER)

Edited, Oct 5th 2010 8:17pm by Deadgye
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#35 Oct 05 2010 at 10:31 PM Rating: Decent
BastokFL wrote:
A huge amount of info was here!


I read that whole post. Pretty interesting. Are you a language professor or something?

Anyway, i think it would be harder for a Japanese person to get a good grasp on English, than it would be for an English speaker to come to terms with Japanese.

I know there are a lot of Japanese words that have different meanings, but you can usually decipher the correct meaning just by the context it was used in. This doesn't work as well for English. We tend to use a lot of slang, that can get really confusing to someone that has very little understanding of English.

#36 Oct 05 2010 at 11:49 PM Rating: Good
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1,500 posts
Tenfooterten wrote:
I know there are a lot of Japanese words that have different meanings, but you can usually decipher the correct meaning just by the context it was used in. This doesn't work as well for English. We tend to use a lot of slang, that can get really confusing to someone that has very little understanding of English.
So you think Japanese don't use slang? you are in for a big surprise...

The complexity of Japanese has very little to do with its grammar.

Think about it, let's say that you want to teach yourself Spanish (or French or Italian or German or any other language with the same alphabet) beyond a few special characters I bet you can take any random text, a dictionary and translate every word, maybe you won't grasp the idea that well due the lack of grammar but I bet you understand a bit of it plus you taught yourself some free nouns in the process.

Now let's try with a harder language let's say russian (33 new character) or maybe Korean (24 new characters) or the deadly abjad (28 new characters), I bet you will struggle at the beginning with the new characters, but seriously... how long could it take before you can memorize and process them at a decent rate? I bet it won't take you more than a couple of months.

Well now try with Chinese or Japanese, right off the bat you will need to deal with thousands of characters!, just try to imagine how long it will take you before you can take a random text and translate it by yourself.

On top of that a language, ANY language is one of the hardest things to learn and which require more dedication, and no matter how hard you try there is only so much you can learn of it, since changing the way your brain interpret the world and mold ideas it's a) almost impossible to change and b) deeply attached to your native language.

Ken
____________________________
"Maybe it means: you're the evil man, and I'm the righteous man, and Mr. Nine-millimeter here, he's the shepherd protecting my righteous *** in the Valley of Darkness." - Jules.
FFXIV: Mabel Rand (Gugnir)
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#37Ap0stle, Posted: Oct 05 2010 at 11:56 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) は、その本当に簡単に日本語を勉強したい場合。ただ、これらのいくつかの簡単な手順を実行します。 Google.com>翻訳およびブームはあなたが今日本語を話すことができるかと思います。あなたは英語から日本語へ、または日本語から英語へ行くことができます。私は、ゲームで使用されていると私は、JPコミュニティと罰金通信することができます。
#38 Oct 06 2010 at 1:08 AM Rating: Decent
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595 posts
To the OP,

I'm actually French, learnt english a long time ago via imported games (ff6 and secret of mana comes to mind, as well as FF legend 2 on GB)
I started studying Japanese 7 years ago during an University exchange in Japan. Now I can play about any RPG in Japanese.

Several cave-at to learning japanese that way:

Contrary to French <-> English, with Japanese, you won't be able to read a single word (nor be able to use a dictionary) AT ALL from the get go. It is a huge difference. Honestly, plan to study hiragana/katakana before even starting to play.
Then comes the Kanji... really hard to study that in FF (a lot easier in the Zelda serie for example, since all Kanji has there furigana mentionned above the kanji, helping with dictionnary search).
If you REALLY plan to carry on learning by yourself with the game, think about spending some times (a lot of time actually) on the bushu (Kanji radicals). They are the individual parts making the kanji. There are about 250 bushu which are then arranged into kanji.
The bushu study will bring you 3 things:
- the bushu by themselves have a meaning, as such, sometimes just looking at the bushu you can guess the meaning of some kanji, with the context
- to be efficient searching a word in the dictionnary, bushu are invaluable. Good dictionnaries are actually organized by bushu then stroke number. A search just by stroke number will take you 10min to find 1 kanji, using an electronic dictionnary, using a paper one, maybe twice that lol)
- Usually a kanji will have 2 (or more) bushu in it, one will give it the main signification, the other will give the kanji a chinese reading. This reading can be used to search the dictionnary (even faster search once you know your stuff), and is actually used in Japanese for words with 2 or more kanji in it (generalization, there are exceptions), allowing you to read, aloud too (meaning you know learn useful verbal japanese too)


Once you have done all that (at best, will take you 6month of really serious study, most likely 1year...) you will be able.... to read somewhat, understanding a bit of what your reading (And at least you can use the dictionnary). From there your progress will be somewhat easier, since they can actually be made in-game (and not studying per see).

Keep in mind that unless you are really young (or uber bright or i dont know), you will never read japanese as fast as english or French. the reason is that in English or French, you dont read each caractere, but recognize the picture of the word your reading, which is a lot faster (and which is also the reason why changing 1 character in each word in a sentence makes the sentence still perfectly readable).
since your brain is not used at all at taking pictures of japanese word, you need to read each caractere (apply mainly to hiragana/katakana), which is way slower, even being a proficient reader.
As such, even being able to read quite well, and speak about fluently, I try to get my games in english now (before I was trying to get them in *** to make progress). It is just more enjoyable because, where I take 10min to read something in either english or French... it takes me 1h in Japanese, for the same understanding.

In short, I encourage you to try, but it is a REALLY long endeavor you are undertaking, I'm not sure you are appreciating the full size of it.

I tell you that as a person who studied japanese for 1 year in Japan at university (20h/week) and have been living in japan 5 more year (still living there), speaking japanese everyday... This language is a *****, plain and simple :D

Regarding FF14 in particular, all languages are included in each version of the game (I use a japanese version, but im playing in english) so on that particular point, just buy your country version and choose japanese at first at install. I wish more developper would do that, it is a freaking awesome option :).

My 2 yens :)

#39 Oct 06 2010 at 2:50 AM Rating: Decent
3 posts
Anurid wrote:
To the OP,

I'm actually French, learnt english a long time ago via imported games (ff6 and secret of mana comes to mind, as well as FF legend 2 on GB)
I started studying Japanese 7 years ago during an University exchange in Japan. Now I can play about any RPG in Japanese.

Several cave-at to learning japanese that way:

Contrary to French <-> English, with Japanese, you won't be able to read a single word (nor be able to use a dictionary) AT ALL from the get go. It is a huge difference. Honestly, plan to study hiragana/katakana before even starting to play.
Then comes the Kanji... really hard to study that in FF (a lot easier in the Zelda serie for example, since all Kanji has there furigana mentionned above the kanji, helping with dictionnary search).
If you REALLY plan to carry on learning by yourself with the game, think about spending some times (a lot of time actually) on the bushu (Kanji radicals). They are the individual parts making the kanji. There are about 250 bushu which are then arranged into kanji.
The bushu study will bring you 3 things:
- the bushu by themselves have a meaning, as such, sometimes just looking at the bushu you can guess the meaning of some kanji, with the context
- to be efficient searching a word in the dictionnary, bushu are invaluable. Good dictionnaries are actually organized by bushu then stroke number. A search just by stroke number will take you 10min to find 1 kanji, using an electronic dictionnary, using a paper one, maybe twice that lol)
- Usually a kanji will have 2 (or more) bushu in it, one will give it the main signification, the other will give the kanji a chinese reading. This reading can be used to search the dictionnary (even faster search once you know your stuff), and is actually used in Japanese for words with 2 or more kanji in it (generalization, there are exceptions), allowing you to read, aloud too (meaning you know learn useful verbal japanese too)


Once you have done all that (at best, will take you 6month of really serious study, most likely 1year...) you will be able.... to read somewhat, understanding a bit of what your reading (And at least you can use the dictionnary). From there your progress will be somewhat easier, since they can actually be made in-game (and not studying per see).

Keep in mind that unless you are really young (or uber bright or i dont know), you will never read japanese as fast as english or French. the reason is that in English or French, you dont read each caractere, but recognize the picture of the word your reading, which is a lot faster (and which is also the reason why changing 1 character in each word in a sentence makes the sentence still perfectly readable).
since your brain is not used at all at taking pictures of japanese word, you need to read each caractere (apply mainly to hiragana/katakana), which is way slower, even being a proficient reader.
As such, even being able to read quite well, and speak about fluently, I try to get my games in english now (before I was trying to get them in *** to make progress). It is just more enjoyable because, where I take 10min to read something in either english or French... it takes me 1h in Japanese, for the same understanding.

In short, I encourage you to try, but it is a REALLY long endeavor you are undertaking, I'm not sure you are appreciating the full size of it.

I tell you that as a person who studied japanese for 1 year in Japan at university (20h/week) and have been living in japan 5 more year (still living there), speaking japanese everyday... This language is a *****, plain and simple :D

Regarding FF14 in particular, all languages are included in each version of the game (I use a japanese version, but im playing in english) so on that particular point, just buy your country version and choose japanese at first at install. I wish more developper would do that, it is a freaking awesome option :).

My 2 yens :)



Thanks so much for that info! This is one of the best replies i've ever had in my entire life! I'll think about. Looks like learning japanese is much harder then learning french!
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