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Auction house will ruin gameFollow

#102 Oct 06 2010 at 4:57 PM Rating: Excellent
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Tokenkauph wrote:
I don’t think the game needs an action house but something does need to change. I think more organized market wards is a good step forward. I would like to see a search function that puts a floating icon above the retainers that have the particular item you are looking for. The main thing I hated about auction houses is the undercutting, sure it is good for the buyer but what ends up happening is 90% of the items you craft barely make a profit on in fact a lot of the times you are lucky to break even. In this game crafting a single item takes a lot of time and effort and to me if I have to spend time to make something I would like to be able to make back what I put into it plus a little for my time.

This is why I am also against having the search function for the retainers show prices. I see a lot of people whining on the forums about wanting a AH so they can get the absolute lowest price and not pay a penny more. This mentality I think is part of what ruins the economy and a lot of peoples will to craft items. I am not going to spend hours hunting down all the parts I need to make a robe just to sell it for what I got into it, it just is not worth my time.

I think the retainer system will result in a better economy in the long run than what a AH would. Prices will vary from retainer to retainer sometimes you will get lucky and find really good deals and other times you will see people charging outrageous prices. The people who are selling their items for outrageous prices will eventually come down on their price because their items will not sell. The economy will stabilize over time and you will see the more common items will have less variance in their price range from retainer to retainer.


You can't have it both ways though. You can't say you don't want to spend a lot of time hunting down materials and then turn around and say that you don't want any ability to search. Either you think that people should have to spend a long time going through bazaars one after another after another after another after another after another until they find what they need, or you think that it should be easy and simple.

Have you considered that if they don't implement an easier way to find the items you need, the people who don't like it will just not browse retainers at all? They'll either shout for it, not get it, or just quit the game. Any way you slice it, if you want goods to be hard to find, it's going to make people less willing to buy your goods. You need to understand something that I don't think SE understands either:

Your customers do not want to jump through hoops to buy your product. They just want your product, and they want to give you money for it. Just as we, the players, do not want to go through menu after menu, prompt after prompt, confirmation after confirmation to pay a monthly fee for FFXIV, neither do we want to go through retainer after retainer, bazaar after bazaar, item after item just to buy one single thing.

I don't understand why people think that making their goods HARDER to find will make people more interested in buying them than if they were easier to locate.

You want to sell goods, yes? In order to sell them, prospective buyers want to be able to find them and they want to know if they're getting a good price on them. So is it that you don't want buyers to find your goods, or is it that you don't want your buyers to get a good price?
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#103 Oct 06 2010 at 5:16 PM Rating: Decent
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I guess it would help if you actually read my post. I suggested that SE introduce a search function that puts a icon over the heads of retainers that have the items you are searching for. This makes finding the item easier but you still have to do the leg work to find the retainer and which retainer has the best price. I was not complaining about how long it takes to find something. I said that If I have to spend alot of time hunting down items and making an item I would like to be able to make back what I had in to the item as well as a little bit for my time. I was making a point that a AH and all the under cutting that comes with a AH system does not really allow for this. I have no issues with offering items at a fair price I just feel the AH system is not the anwser.



Edited, Oct 6th 2010 7:21pm by Tokenkauph




Edited, Oct 6th 2010 7:26pm by Tokenkauph
#104 Oct 06 2010 at 5:23 PM Rating: Excellent
Edited by bsphil
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Tokenkauph wrote:
I guess it would help if you actually read my post. I made a suggestion on something that I would like to see in game that i feel would make it easier to find the items you are searching for. I was not complaining about how long it takes to find something. I said that If I have to spend alot of time hunting down items and making an item I would like to be able to make back what I had in to the item as well as a little bit for my time. I was making a point that a AH and all the under cutting that comes with a AH system does not really allow for this. Again reading is your friend, if you are going to make a comment about something please take the time to read and understand what that person is saying before doing so.
Undercutting exists just as readily in bazaar systems as it does in an auction system. Like in EVE for example, you don't have to buy the one that is the lowest price anywhere, you can buy one that is in the station you're at rather than having to make a few jumps to separate systems to pick up your item. Bazaars don't remove the problem, just makes the whole system slower and more obtuse, meaning that players will often get sick of looking for the lowest price and just take what they find. In fact, it happened all the time in FFXI. In rolanmart, you could go out, look at all the available prices on Ancient Beastcoins, set the price to say, 500 gil less than the lowest price, then leave your character there overnight. Instant undercutting without any AH access (since you can't sell ABCs on the AH).

I'm really not sure why everyone wrings their hands about undercutting anyway, it's a natural function of a free economy. Eventually people will get sick of selling so low, stop producing (or selling) the item, and the supply will dry up relative to the demand, in turn increasing the price. Adam Smith's invisible hand wins again.



Edited, Oct 6th 2010 6:26pm by bsphil
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#105 Oct 06 2010 at 5:31 PM Rating: Excellent
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bsphil wrote:
I'm really not sure why everyone wrings their hands about undercutting anyway, it's a natural function of a free economy. Eventually people will get sick of selling so low, stop producing (or selling) the item, and the supply will dry up relative to the demand, in turn increasing the price. Adam Smith's invisible hand wins again.


Ditto. If you don't think an item is worth the price it would sell for, don't make that item. As less people make it, the price will increase over time due to lower supply. Then make that item at that price.

The main proponents of a system that decentralizes prices and makes it hard to find what you want are usually the ones who want to be able to charge whatever they want because they know that the more difficult it is to find items, the more likely their overpriced item will be to sell.
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#106 Oct 06 2010 at 5:35 PM Rating: Excellent
Edited by bsphil
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Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
The main proponents of a system that decentralizes prices and makes it hard to find what you want are usually the ones who want to be able to charge whatever they want because they know that the more difficult it is to find items, the more likely their overpriced item will be to sell.
Hmmm... that sounds fairly plausible, actually.
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#107 Oct 06 2010 at 5:51 PM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
I see a lot of people whining on the forums about wanting a AH so they can get the absolute lowest price and not pay a penny more. This mentality I think is part of what ruins the economy


Welcome to economics 101, bub. The real world isn't any different.
#108 Oct 06 2010 at 6:00 PM Rating: Good
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Fynlar wrote:
Quote:
I see a lot of people whining on the forums about wanting a AH so they can get the absolute lowest price and not pay a penny more. This mentality I think is part of what ruins the economy


Welcome to economics 101, bub. The real world isn't any different.


People don't like overpaying for things? Holy ****! Give this guy a freaking medal for his groundbreaking discovery.
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#109 Oct 06 2010 at 6:07 PM Rating: Default
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Fynlar wrote:
Quote:
I see a lot of people whining on the forums about wanting a AH so they can get the absolute lowest price and not pay a penny more. This mentality I think is part of what ruins the economy


Welcome to economics 101, bub. The real world isn't any different.




Tell me where can I go in the real world that well tell me what the absolute lowest price is on what ever item I want. In the real work I have to shop around to find the best price. I am not against fair prices or a good deal I am just saying the AH makes items worth less faster because I can logon and see 50 others are selling thier item for 1000 gil so I will sill mine for 995. then the next person comes along and sees that and puts their item up for 990 ect .. I don't have to shop around or do any work at all which kind of takes the fun out of a player ran economy for me and devalues things quicker.
#110 Oct 06 2010 at 6:10 PM Rating: Excellent
Edited by bsphil
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Tokenkauph wrote:
In the real world I have to shop around to find the best price.
Amazon.com
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#111 Oct 06 2010 at 6:12 PM Rating: Excellent
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Tokenkauph wrote:
Fynlar wrote:
Quote:
I see a lot of people whining on the forums about wanting a AH so they can get the absolute lowest price and not pay a penny more. This mentality I think is part of what ruins the economy


Welcome to economics 101, bub. The real world isn't any different.




Tell me where can I go in the real world that well tell me what the absolute lowest price is on what ever item I want. In the real work I have to shop around to find the best price. I am not against fair prices or a good deal I am just saying the AH makes items worth less faster because I can logon and see 50 others are selling thier item for 1000 gil so I will sill mine for 995. then the next person comes along and sees that and puts their item up for 990 ect .. I don't have to shop around or do any work at all which kind of takes the fun out of a player ran economy for me and devalues things quicker.



The AH doesnt devalue things, players do. An items value is based on supply and demand. As more crafters make something, value goes down. As more players outlevel something, value goes down.

Unlike FFXI, there will not be a healthy secondary market for gear due to the large amount of effort and cost that goes into repairing an item to 100%, and prices will tend to go up on items after most crafters have advanced past levels that can skillup on items.
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#112 Oct 06 2010 at 6:16 PM Rating: Good
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MojoRysyn wrote:
Hello.

My reason for this discussion is to clear peoples minds about not having an auction house and to support developers in never creating one for FFXIV. it will simply ruin the game. there are other solutions to peoples headaches on not being able to find mats for crafting.

We see thousands of unused items on FFXI's auction house. My experience with FFXIV over the last month has made me a better player without it.
It has made the game more interactive and real to me. I have seen a beautiful variety of players all expressing more individuality than could ever be created with FFXI or any other popular MMORPG.

The biggest complaint i see on forums is there is no place to dump crafted items or get materials to keep crafting.
This can be solved by just selling all materials
at a NPC.

I firmly believe an auction house will ruin this game. I love searching for gear in crafters bazaars. its given the game more variety and individuality. Auction houses will only make the game.. the same as FFXI. This is the future and auction houses will only set you back.

Also i think an auction house takes control away from the developers. These people dont know anything about economy.

Example.. you let them make the economy on FFXI..

Then they ******* and complained about it...

But they did it to themselves!!

By selling crafting materials at NPC's..

the developers keep control.!!


If you dont like it. then go play WoW or FFXI for the rest of your life.
I like the game being more life like and putting everyone on the same level.
I like that no auction house makes people work harder.
I made a really good friend because i bought something out of her bazaar.

And that's when it all clicked for me. and i seen how much better this game is
without it


Rayneblood > FFXI

Mojo Rysyn > FFXIV > the new masterpiece.


Pikko wrote:
Give me an easier way to browse bazaars and maybe I'll get on your wagon. For right now though, I simply refuse to use the retainer system for more than a bank to hold my crap. Browsing people is just ridiculously hard. It's bad enough I have no hotkey to look at someone's bazaar, but there's a few seconds lag before items even pop up. Smiley: mad


it is very hard, especially when lag disrupt browsing in these markets. but with an AH i found what i need, when i need, when ever i needed it. looking threw a whole bunch of retainers is extremely time consuming. it not very hard, but click and browse, click and browse, click and browse, 100 retainers in a laggy environment to look for what you need, does'nt make it fun, just annoying and enough with saying if you dont like this or any other mmo go back to wow comments its just asinine.
#113 Oct 06 2010 at 6:33 PM Rating: Default
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I would even settle for a way to search all bazaars in a given area at one location. I'd even be willing to track down the individual at their location! But I looked for over 100 bazaars last night to try and find a level 12 Conj wand. To me over an hour clicking person after person on a very slow UI is not fun, or innovative, or new. It's just boring. If I could go to a bazaar directory so to speak and search for "wand" and it brought up the name of each person in Ul'Dah, where I am, selling wands in their bazaar and where they are.... I would love to keep the bazaar function over AH if it had something like this.

Otherwise, give me a auction house.
#114 Oct 06 2010 at 6:50 PM Rating: Excellent
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I spent an hour and twenty minutes looking for a pair of shoes today. I found one pair in the markets for 299k. I want shoes. Sell me shoes. I do not care if they come from an NPC or an AH, but I want a place to reliably go and buy shoes.

If S-E's answer is "You want shoes? Take up leathercrafting", then we truly are simply playing a crafting sim. If their answer is "You want shoes? Go to the markets/bazaar", then we are playing a shopping sim, with each of us blind men in a mall with no store names.
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#115 Oct 06 2010 at 7:03 PM Rating: Excellent
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Tokenkauph wrote:
I am not against fair prices or a good deal I am just saying the AH makes items worth less faster because I can logon and see 50 others are selling thier item for 1000 gil so I will sill mine for 995. then the next person comes along and sees that and puts their item up for 990 ect .. I don't have to shop around or do any work at all which kind of takes the fun out of a player ran economy for me and devalues things quicker.


The Auction House doesn't "make items worth less", players do.

An item selling for less than the current price when supply is greater than demand is healthy and expected, it's called equilibrium. Your opinion is that this equilibrium should be harder to judge, leaving more room for error and gain to the players. While those of us crying out for an auction house don't necessarily disagree with this concept in principle, please realize that the Market Wards in their current iteration and coupled with the UI lag when attempting to go from retainer to retainer do far more to harm the economy than help it.

Edited, Oct 6th 2010 9:12pm by Whales
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#116 Oct 06 2010 at 7:07 PM Rating: Excellent
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Kilill wrote:
I spent an hour and twenty minutes looking for a pair of shoes today. I found one pair in the markets for 299k. I want shoes. Sell me shoes. I do not care if they come from an NPC or an AH, but I want a place to reliably go and buy shoes.

If S-E's answer is "You want shoes? Take up leathercrafting", then we truly are simply playing a crafting sim. If their answer is "You want shoes? Go to the markets/bazaar", then we are playing a shopping sim, with each of us blind men in a mall with no store names.


Indeed. I'm not playing because I want to craft. I'm not playing because I want to shop. Maybe others are, but I'm not. I'm playing because I want to kill **** and harvest **** and mine ****.

And when I get loot from killing/mining/harvesting, I want to set it and forget it and come back to money after it sells, not spend hours trying to figure out how much each individual item is worth because I have to look at bazaars for half an hour or more to figure out what to sell an item for, and then repeat that for EVERY SINGLE ITEM I HAVE.
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#117 Oct 06 2010 at 7:19 PM Rating: Decent
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I'm one of those that voted for an AH on the poll that was posted.
The system as it stands now absolutly sucks.

Picture your Local Landfill and you pretty much have our Retainer System.

Quote:
For right now though, I simply refuse to use the retainer system for more than a bank to hold my crap. Browsing people is just ridiculously hard. It's bad enough I have no hotkey to look at someone's bazaar, but there's a few seconds lag before items even pop up.


This pretty much sums it up for me.
My retainer for the forseeable future amounts to a moogle in my house.

I'm an avid Crafter and what really scares me is this:
Quote:
SE is going to re-organize the market wards. No one knows how this will be implemented exactly. This list of new market wards is listed on Lodestone.

From what I'm hearing they plan to break the wards into product type(like weapons,gears,food,etc.).

Hummm,now I'm possibly faced with the need for multiple Retrainers.

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#118 Oct 06 2010 at 8:08 PM Rating: Good
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The Funniest thing is that OP, and everyone else replying to this post will spend Hours in front of the AH when it will be implemented, you will replace retainer browsing with item browsing/drooling over items you will never be able to afford/trying to come up with a scheme to make money of off it. You will spend Hours setting up 100+ auctions trough this slow UI.

But at the same time, if you want an item you can search and buy it. That will give you more time to do other fun stuff like crafting/farming so you can get back to sell it on the AH.

So in conclusion, IF you want to waste time, you can easily do it on an AH too, just don't waste everyone's time.
#119 Oct 06 2010 at 9:30 PM Rating: Decent
Hey, OP, there are plenty of things you can do in real life to waste your life away. Perhaps watching trees grow might be a task suitable for your immense desire to trickle away the years. And I don't doubt you could make friends with a few of those trees in the process. However, just because you think it's enjoyable and fun to waste time accomplishing nothing at all doesn't mean everyone else does.

So if/when they finally do add an auction house, and you still want to maintain the realistic inefficiency you currently enjoy then I have some suggestions for you:

1. Avoid it altogether and do what you're doing now to find the things you need. It'll be your own personal Mission: Impossible anytime you need something!

2. Use the auction house to find people with the items you need. Message those people about the goods you desire from them and lay out some elaborate process that enhances the realism of the entire ordeal before you will agree to purchase. Some of those people might even indulge you, and wouldn't they make perfect friends?

3. Spam the chat channels with WTB messages for all the things you need, and fervently make your case about the wickedness of the auction house to anyone and everyone that tells you to use it.

And lastly, OP, I have to wonder on your thoughts regarding Teleporting. Do you just run everywhere you need to go?

Dead sock is dead

Edited, Oct 6th 2010 8:38pm by Osarion
#120 Oct 06 2010 at 10:09 PM Rating: Default
33 posts
Ok after reading many posts on here i realize my idea of the game is very different than others.

"Hey, OP, there are plenty of things you can do in real life to waste your life away. Perhaps watching trees grow might be a task suitable for your immense desire to trickle away the years. And I don't doubt you could make friends with a few of those trees in the process. However, just because you think it's enjoyable and fun to waste time accomplishing nothing at all doesn't mean everyone else does. "

I have been playing the game for a few hours every night. I have only spent a total of 60 minutes searching bazaars. the other 20 hours ive been running around figuring the game out and grinding XP and doing leves. so im not wasting my time browsing bazaars. so i actually didn't realize how horrible it is to waste time doing this. Until i read all these posts and understood the reasons you all feel this way.

I think its funny that you all come up with these type of comments

"Your a high school kid"

OR

"You must love to watch trees grow and make friends with them"

These are all assumptions based on statements people have taken out of context
then your entire reply goes nowhere because you've wasted your thoughts about me on
assumptions that are laughably wrong. Someone says "He's a college student who lives off his parents and i come back a few hours later to see 10 posts after that of people all thinking im this thing you created... lol its kinda funny actually.

Maybe if you actually tried to have a conversation with me.... ahh nevermind..

and IdoBoringCrapForTheRealism..
to tell you the truth about your final assumption.

I actually only teleport to aetheryte when im doing leves.
I currently stay between 85 and 95 anima.
Most of the time i do run/walk because it gives me the chance to grind out some XP and collect drops to sell to NPCs....
#121MojoRysyn, Posted: Oct 06 2010 at 10:11 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) and i do hear a lot of other people in linkshells saying they only have like 20 anima left or they have none at all.
#122 Oct 06 2010 at 10:12 PM Rating: Good
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iDoBoringCrapForTheREALISM wrote:
Hey, OP, there are plenty of things you can do in real life to waste your life away. Perhaps watching trees grow might be a task suitable for your immense desire to trickle away the years. And I don't doubt you could make friends with a few of those trees in the process. However, just because you think it's enjoyable and fun to waste time accomplishing nothing at all doesn't mean everyone else does.

So if/when they finally do add an auction house, and you still want to maintain the realistic inefficiency you currently enjoy then I have some suggestions for you:

1. Avoid it altogether and do what you're doing now to find the things you need. It'll be your own personal Mission: Impossible anytime you need something!

2. Use the auction house to find people with the items you need. Message those people about the goods you desire from them and lay out some elaborate process that enhances the realism of the entire ordeal before you will agree to purchase. Some of those people might even indulge you, and wouldn't they make perfect friends?

3. Spam the chat channels with WTB messages for all the things you need, and fervently make your case about the wickedness of the auction house to anyone and everyone that tells you to use it.

And lastly, OP, I have to wonder on your thoughts regarding Teleporting. Do you just run everywhere you need to go?

Dead sock is dead

Edited, Oct 6th 2010 8:38pm by Osarion


Why do you need a sock to say this? Be a man.
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#123 Oct 06 2010 at 10:17 PM Rating: Decent
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Jesus! People are still replying to this joke?
#124 Oct 06 2010 at 10:22 PM Rating: Excellent
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MojoRysyn wrote:
I have been playing the game for a few hours every night. I have only spent a total of 60 minutes searching bazaars. the other 20 hours ive been running around figuring the game out and grinding XP and doing leves. so im not wasting my time browsing bazaars. so i actually didn't realize how horrible it is to waste time doing this. Until i read all these posts and understood the reasons you all feel this way.


Here's my homework for you, if you want to do it. Try to walk a mile in my shoes, and see what you come up with.

First, log into your MMORPG of choice that has an AH. WoW, FFXI, DDO, any one you want. I'm not picky. Whatever you like. If you aren't playing anything else, you can get a free trial of WoW, or DDO and LotRO are free.

I would like you to approach the AH and make a note of the time.

I would like you to find (you don't even need to buy it):

- A level 10-20 Weapon for a melee class
- A level 10-20 Shield
- A level 10-20 Cloth Body Armor
- A level 10-20 Leather or Metal Helm
- A level 10-20 Necklace/Ring/Amulet/Trinket/etc


...and then look at your clock again. Having located these four items, make a note of how long this took you to locate (again, not necessarily buy) all of these items.

Next, I'd like you to get back on FFXIV go to the Market Wards and note the time on the clock when you enter. I would like you to locate:

- A level 10-20 Weapon for a DoW
- A level 10-20 Shield
- A level 10-20 Cloth Body Armor
- A level 10-20 Leather or Metal Helm
- A level 10-20 Necklace/Ring/Amulet/Trinket/etc

...and then look at your clock again. Remember, the key is that I want you to either stay in the market wards until you have located all four items, or if you want to give up, let me know how long you looked and what you could find.

Even if you aren't playing any other games and don't feel like downloading one, you can skip #1; but I think after you try #2, try to find five simple items that are staple items of fantasy RPGs, and see how long it takes you and observe the results... you'll understand why people want an AH.

I'm not being antagonistic or argumentative in this; I'm making an honest suggestion to you: Try it out. See what it's like for yourself.
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#125 Oct 06 2010 at 10:24 PM Rating: Good
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I dont get how an auction house is worse than having to pay some dumb over-priced crap from bazaar =/ i find this completely illogical.
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#126 Oct 06 2010 at 10:25 PM Rating: Excellent
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People fail to realize, that with or without an auction house, eventually the economy will be set.

Look at Ragnarok Online, they dont have an AH, or a search function, however items are sold for a preset amount determined by the players. Retainers will eventually function the same way. After x amount of time, people will realize Item A is worth more than item B, and item C is worth double of Item A.

It's economics people, in ANY MMORPG, the player base decides the value of the item, your wanting to throw FFXIV back into the stone ages of RO, is just asking for more frustration than it's worth. An economy, will eventually prevail, and then those wanting no AH, will pray for one, because they still have to pay 250k for a pair of boots, but now they have to search through all the ****** market wards to find them, because players have decided that the stats on the boots, make it worth that much.
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#127 Oct 06 2010 at 10:27 PM Rating: Decent
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@Mikhalia
Looking at your post-count, one could imagine you know when you get trolled...?
#128 Oct 06 2010 at 11:04 PM Rating: Good
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Rinsui wrote:
@Mikhalia
Looking at your post-count, one could imagine you know when you get trolled...?


You're not considering the possibility that I enjoy feeding trolls for the +1s.
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Mikhalia: Sounds about right.
#129 Oct 06 2010 at 11:22 PM Rating: Decent
47 posts
So I've read arguments for both sides.

The Anti-AH people want to keep the game AH-less because:

-being AH-less Makes people rely more on each-other and LS/Guild mates
-being AH-less Prevents monopolies or individuals from controlling the market
-being AH-less Adds a level of realism to the game
-being AH-less Slows down crafters so that they cannot outpace others
-being AH-less prevents players from becoming too cookie-cutter in appearence and gear choice
-being AH-less prevents undercutting and other "mean" marketing techniques

The Pro-AH people want to implement and AH because having an auction house:

-Saves time
-Allows for easy access of materials, and equipment
-Shifts the focus of the game to playing, not browsing
-Reduces lag in the cities(this is one of mine if it hasn't been mentioned yet)

For me, the AH-less system people have a couple of good points. The Super Inflation of FFXI did make the game very difficult to play for the average casual(less than 10 hours of gameplay a week) gamer, or those who didn't have a method of producing a reliable income in a short period of time (ie those who didn't have a craft over 90, and HNMLS that did the sell/split method, or were really lucky with BeastSeal/KindredSeal and other BCNM(and its million variations) activities. This created a feeling of "I have to RMT or I can't get sh*t" attitude or "I'll always be poor anyway" attitude which resulted in under-geared players trying to meke out an existance in overly elitist parties, or contribute to RMT which in turn contributed to inflation wich contributed to more RMT. This is a good argument on the side of "NO AH EVAH!" as it was somthing that made the game much less enjoyable. I also think that having players interact with eachother with a common goal is the heart and soul of MMO's, and things implemented to ensure their success is a wonderful venture.

The "GIMME AH NAO!" people also have good points. The game is meant to be played, not browsed. While I admit that I do enjoy browsing the market from time to time in a game, I don't make that my main goal. My main goal of any game is to see the storyline, interact with other players/npc's, explore, and complete challenging events.

By not having an AH system in place, the majority of my time looking for a weapon upgrade (I play a Lancer main) is painful for somone who has a wife, job, is taking classes and has a baby on the way. I do have some free time each week to play, usually around 15 hours total, with the majority of those hours lying on the weekends. This makes me a "Casual" player, which I freely admit is not what FFXI or many other incredibly fun MMO's are built around. The AH-less system forces me to spend the vast majority of my time browsing bazzars at a snail's pace (SE really needs to improve the User Interface in this game or it will die a horrible death...) which cuts into what little play time I have.

I'm a realist in some ways, and one of those is the Fun/Cost ratio. For instance, if I buy a video game for my PS3 and play it for 150 hours, and enjoy all 150 hours of it, and it cost $50, then it is a 1:3 ratio, or I paid $1 for every 3 hours of fun. This is an acceptable rate, and is a good tradeoff. Lets assume that I play an MMO for 15 hours a week. That's 60 hours a month. The subscription cost is about $15. This gives a ratio of 1:4 ratio, which is even better than that $50 PS3 game! Win!! Or is it... Of those 15 hours a week, if I'm being forced to spend 10 of those 15 farming for money and browsing for items, then I end up only having "Fun" for 5 hours a week, or 20 hours a month. That makes is 1:1.5 ratio of cost to fun. This means that if I spent that same dollar on another non-mmo game I'd of had twice as much fun. This is, of course, being generous to the MMO as I don't include the initial cost of the game.

What does this have to do with FF14 and an AH?

Given an AH, it takes me only 1-2 hours a week of browsing to find or gather the things that I want/need to continue on my version of fun. This would make it comparable, if not superior, to buying console games brand new off the shelf. Thus it would make FF14 comparable to other games on the market, and even other MMO's.

Bottom line:

No AH means too much non-fun time and not enough fun time to make the game playable.

Fix it.

And while you're at it, fix the bloody User Interface system! It is the WORST I have ever encountered!!
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#130 Oct 06 2010 at 11:27 PM Rating: Good
Edited by bsphil
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Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
Rinsui wrote:
@Mikhalia
Looking at your post-count, one could imagine you know when you get trolled...?


You're not considering the possibility that I enjoy feeding trolls for the +1s.
Signed.
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Almalieque wrote:
If no one debated with me, then I wouldn't post here anymore.
Take the hint guys, please take the hint.
gbaji wrote:
I'm not getting my news from anywhere Joph.
#131 Oct 06 2010 at 11:28 PM Rating: Good
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even without the AH system, a web site will be erected at some point, to track market trends, the players will the flock to said site, to post their wares (****, ffxiah already has a xiv bazaar section) once said site is well known, it will become to norm, and prices will be stabilized there, giving crafters once again the power for a kingpin economy that so many MMOs have.

it's un-avoidable people, AH system or not, the ones spending the most time crafting, will make the most money, will pop out the most product, and be able to set the price standards, and everyone else will have to match, lower, or pray their overpriced crap sells to some person that doesn't know about the "auction house" website.
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#132 Oct 06 2010 at 11:30 PM Rating: Good
Edited by bsphil
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SeraphrimLakshmi wrote:
For me, the AH-less system people have a couple of good points. The Super Inflation of FFXI did make the game very difficult to play for the average casual(less than 10 hours of gameplay a week) gamer, or those who didn't have a method of producing a reliable income in a short period of time (ie those who didn't have a craft over 90, and HNMLS that did the sell/split method, or were really lucky with BeastSeal/KindredSeal and other BCNM(and its million variations) activities. This created a feeling of "I have to RMT or I can't get sh*t" attitude or "I'll always be poor anyway" attitude which resulted in under-geared players trying to meke out an existance in overly elitist parties, or contribute to RMT which in turn contributed to inflation wich contributed to more RMT. This is a good argument on the side of "NO AH EVAH!" as it was somthing that made the game much less enjoyable. I also think that having players interact with eachother with a common goal is the heart and soul of MMO's, and things implemented to ensure their success is a wonderful venture.
None of those points have anything to do with an AH, though. That would've happened in FFXI regardless of whether there was an AH or not. In fact, without an auction house to solidify prices and encourage competitive pricing, the prices would've been even WORSE if the AH wasn't there.

Or rather, the prices would be more susceptible to manipulation without a centralized AH system.

Edited, Oct 7th 2010 12:31am by bsphil
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His Excellency Aethien wrote:
Almalieque wrote:
If no one debated with me, then I wouldn't post here anymore.
Take the hint guys, please take the hint.
gbaji wrote:
I'm not getting my news from anywhere Joph.
#133 Oct 08 2010 at 3:36 AM Rating: Decent
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441 posts
Mikhalia the Picky wrote:
MojoRysyn wrote:
I have been playing the game for a few hours every night. I have only spent a total of 60 minutes searching bazaars. the other 20 hours ive been running around figuring the game out and grinding XP and doing leves. so im not wasting my time browsing bazaars. so i actually didn't realize how horrible it is to waste time doing this. Until i read all these posts and understood the reasons you all feel this way.


Here's my homework for you, if you want to do it. Try to walk a mile in my shoes, and see what you come up with.

First, log into your MMORPG of choice that has an AH. WoW, FFXI, DDO, any one you want. I'm not picky. Whatever you like. If you aren't playing anything else, you can get a free trial of WoW, or DDO and LotRO are free.

I would like you to approach the AH and make a note of the time.

I would like you to find (you don't even need to buy it):

- A level 10-20 Weapon for a melee class
- A level 10-20 Shield
- A level 10-20 Cloth Body Armor
- A level 10-20 Leather or Metal Helm
- A level 10-20 Necklace/Ring/Amulet/Trinket/etc


...and then look at your clock again. Having located these four items, make a note of how long this took you to locate (again, not necessarily buy) all of these items.

Next, I'd like you to get back on FFXIV go to the Market Wards and note the time on the clock when you enter. I would like you to locate:

- A level 10-20 Weapon for a DoW
- A level 10-20 Shield
- A level 10-20 Cloth Body Armor
- A level 10-20 Leather or Metal Helm
- A level 10-20 Necklace/Ring/Amulet/Trinket/etc

...and then look at your clock again. Remember, the key is that I want you to either stay in the market wards until you have located all four items, or if you want to give up, let me know how long you looked and what you could find.

Even if you aren't playing any other games and don't feel like downloading one, you can skip #1; but I think after you try #2, try to find five simple items that are staple items of fantasy RPGs, and see how long it takes you and observe the results... you'll understand why people want an AH.

I'm not being antagonistic or argumentative in this; I'm making an honest suggestion to you: Try it out. See what it's like for yourself.


i actually did try this myself and in fact in ffxi took 6 mins, in ffxiv took 29 mins, running around. mind you, the length in time was due to searching 43 retainers, with the combination of the buggy, slow UI.




Edited, Oct 8th 2010 5:38am by gaiaxzero
#134 Oct 08 2010 at 4:53 AM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
For me, the AH-less system people have a couple of good points. The Super Inflation of FFXI did make the game very difficult to play for the average casual(less than 10 hours of gameplay a week) gamer, or those who didn't have a method of producing a reliable income in a short period of time



Anyone who's using the argument that the AH in FFXI "ruined the economy" or 'caused inflation" is completely off base here. I have a feeling not too many FFXI players realize the sheer amount of damage to the FFXI economy done by the fishing bots (mostly RMT) - specifically the ones set to fish up that one common item (can't remember exactly what it was, something like "old tin-can" - I'm sure someone here knows/remembers this item) that could be sold to an NPC for a large amount of gil. This all started before FFXI was even released in the US and SE never fixed it until much later (changed the fishing mechanics as well as change the NPC value of that item I believe) well into the US release , but by then there was already serious damage to the economy in terms of artificial inflation, etc. Billions of gil where literally "fished" up out of nothing during this period and pumped into the community.

I don't see how AH has caused "ruin" to any of the economies in other major MMORPGs and don't see why it would ruin FFXIV - it would only improve the overall experience for many people. Keep in mind a lot of people including those that don't particularly care for crafting are crafting simply because it's too hard to find things and they don't want to deal with the market wards nonsense - with an AH these people can go back to what they truly enjoy in the game like killing stuff for EXP and gil, and questing. A lot of people you see crafting now would probably stop if there was a mechanism like the AH and they could just farm for the gil to by their gear.

And there's no reason either why we can't have *both* an AH and a retainer system.
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#135 Oct 08 2010 at 11:03 AM Rating: Excellent
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211 posts
First of all, I'd like to say that I strongly disagree with the idea of all materials coming from npcs... They did that in the beta, and it made everyone treat the game like a single player ordeal. Only a small number of select ingredients are meant to come from npcs at a reasonable price, such as distilled water for example... Some other things can be sold, but at much higher prices than the general market.

Beyond that, I agree with what others say about the retainer system being broken. It's a great replacement to the old mule system, and I love it for that, but it just isn't in any condition to replace a market system, not yet at least. I agree that it has the potential to surpass an AH, and do a lot for the games economy, I really do... But it's simply not acceptable to spend 2+ hours searching and find either nothing you need or only a small number of things at a very bad price, especially not when you have a long list of needs.

At the moment, I have a fairly large ls... We all just kind of keep an eye out for each others needs, and if one person decides to bite the bullet and search the wards, they usually get sent in with a list of things to look out for lol. I don't really go into the wards at all though. If I absolutely have to, I'll shout or watch for shouts, or ask around to get certain things, and I check player bazaars still. But wards?... [No thanks!] :P
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#136 Oct 08 2010 at 2:58 PM Rating: Excellent
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As crazy as the FFXI AH was, it did not destroy the FFXI economy. As rightfully stated a small handful of times, it was the fish bots (Rusty Cap) 24/7 spam, the RMT monopolizing Uli back in the day and the NPC glitch where water jars sold back for higher than you bought them.

That last glitch was INSANE; it was up for what, a day or so? Do you not understand how much FREE MONEY was created out of nowhere that RMT got a hold of? It is a huge amount and probably forever damaged the FFXI economy. Once RMT and botters got a hold of certain NMs, it was over. They would sell you the gil to buy the item they camped...thus getting back the gil and losing nothing in the process.

Additionally, a poster WAY back when said that for a day there was a hack resetting the Steal timer and botters hit up Oldtown Moval for beastcoins, NPCing them for what, 5k a pop or something? Spamming that, zoning and coming back could easily generate millions of gil as well.

The AH was easily the LEAST of the problems contributing to FFXI's massively, artificially overinflated economy. Not to mention that the gilsinks were added much later into the game than they should have been. In the history of the game, there was at least 1, if not 2, infinite gil fountains mistakenly made. That really is a huge factor.
#137 Oct 16 2010 at 6:39 AM Rating: Decent
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if there's not gonna be an auction house then at least give us a Walmart.
#138 Oct 16 2010 at 7:43 AM Rating: Good
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I can't honestly see them ever adding an AH so the post is pointless, the fact they are spending so much precious dev time trying to make the current system better shows AH wont ever happen. Search system is what we will have.

I do think FFXIAH annoyed Square and caused this new system, quite how they are going to be able to stop a site such as that idk and honestly I don't think they will be able to. New apps will be made to search instead of just scan the AH as currently happens on FFXI.

Square are always 2 steps behind the 3rd party people, they won't be able to block a FFXIAH type website in the same way they won't be able to stop bots, apps and windower. They are trying to right now but they are actually hurting the game with their current attempts and that will quickly change, also all the people and groundwork are there from FFXI and they will be made in record time for 14. Windowers, bots, AH search sites etc you name it, they are probably already around just not made public yet.
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#139 Oct 16 2010 at 8:57 AM Rating: Good
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Hyrist, ****** Superhero wrote:
I'm also against a dedicated auction house system in this game.

I'm also leary about a organized search function as well. If it lists by items then we end up having just another auction system, where the rich and greedy get to regulate the prices however they see fit. (Be they RMT or player.)



My husband and I were talking about this last night.

I think if they can add an NPC in each Retainer Ward, someone you can search through, it can make it easier. So, say you're looking for a Bronze Ingot - You talk to the NPC, type into a box "Bronze Ingot" and the NPC pulls up a list of people in that very room who are selling them - No prices listed in order to keep the RMT Control to a minimum. You still have to search through those very retainers for the best price, but now you're singled down to maybe 3 people instead of 30 people - this helps limit the wasted time each person spends so they can continue with their playing.
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#140 Oct 16 2010 at 9:26 AM Rating: Good
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XxMeegsxX wrote:
Hyrist, ****** Superhero wrote:
I'm also against a dedicated auction house system in this game.

I'm also leary about a organized search function as well. If it lists by items then we end up having just another auction system, where the rich and greedy get to regulate the prices however they see fit. (Be they RMT or player.)



My husband and I were talking about this last night.

I think if they can add an NPC in each Retainer Ward, someone you can search through, it can make it easier. So, say you're looking for a Bronze Ingot - You talk to the NPC, type into a box "Bronze Ingot" and the NPC pulls up a list of people in that very room who are selling them - No prices listed in order to keep the RMT Control to a minimum. You still have to search through those very retainers for the best price, but now you're singled down to maybe 3 people instead of 30 people - this helps limit the wasted time each person spends so they can continue with their playing.


I agree this looks to be whats actually happening. However, I'm going to call it now, within about 2 years they will change it so you'll be buying straight from the searching NPC
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#141 Oct 16 2010 at 10:08 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
well i'm sorry but i think an auction house will ruin the game.

you can all sit here and think your funny i could care less.
I have realized im dealing with immature lazy kids who are growing up with Iphone apps.

Improve bazaars and change some interface controls.
But other than that the game is really good.


and

Quote:
Im actually 30 years old.
I have an associates degree in business management.
I actually manage 400 accounts for a kitchen logistics company.
my wife and i made over 100 grand last year.

im responsible for over $750,000 a year for my company.
I work a lot. its a pretty cake job though. seeing as to how i make my own hours and get free food and listen to the sirius

I also have a wife and 2 kids.
Which i have built an amazing environment for that any kid could only dream of having.

My wife owns and operates a tattoo shop.

I have been playing FFXI since it came out and FF since the late 80's.
I also ski, camp, bike, hike, go to concerts regulary, clean my house and take care of my family very well with what seems to me a thousand arms.
Ive managed to balance 'real life' and gaming very well.

My character in FFXI only has two lvl 85 jobs now. BLM and PLD.
I have high event attendance. I dont have a relic weapon. but i have decent gear.
Ive been playing it since it was released in north america.
I actually have a new gaming rig next to my old XP PC
so i can play both XI and XIV side by side.
My new PC runs both games at once. and 50 other applications too.


so, you are this amazing, successful, troll poster on an online site. Wait no, you are a productive, family man with immature tendacies, no wait, crap, i'm sorry - i'm just having a hard time putting your personality together. Are you just unhappy?

You need to understand that once you commit to insulting or telling people what to think/do you lose all respect in the online community, and most real life communities. It is ok to have an idea, but once you try to force that ideal on others you lose any momentum you have going. Also, arguing with administors is a bad idea.

~Skye
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#142 Oct 16 2010 at 10:40 AM Rating: Excellent
Edited by bsphil
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21,739 posts
XxMeegsxX wrote:
No prices listed in order to keep the RMT Control to a minimum.
How does not including the price combat RMT? Wouldn't it make price manipulation easier? If you show everyone's prices, it's very easy to come to an equilibrium in the market. If you're going to hide them, then due to the fact that searching through bazaars is a slow process, it will discourage people from finding the best price. If anything, hiding the price is going to encourage price gouging.
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His Excellency Aethien wrote:
Almalieque wrote:
If no one debated with me, then I wouldn't post here anymore.
Take the hint guys, please take the hint.
gbaji wrote:
I'm not getting my news from anywhere Joph.
#143 Oct 16 2010 at 12:39 PM Rating: Good
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Auction house or no Auction house, it doens't matter. What matter is we have a efficient way for players to get what they want from each other.

If that basic minimum is not even met, talking about impact of AH what not is moot :) it is like saying how you should roof a house when it is on fire.
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#144 Oct 16 2010 at 12:59 PM Rating: Good
@OP
Not having an auction house will deter more players from playing than it will save in the current system. With the interdependancy of the crafting trades, having a viable method to buy/sell parts, crystals, wares is a must. If I set you on a catapult with a laptop and told you to find 5 specific items in 30 mins, think you could do it? Or would you be a lawn dart? I bet with an AH I could with 25 mins to spare 10/10 times.

In a perfect world people would put what they're supposed to in the proper ward but that's not going to happen. It's obvious they're trying to make the retainer system work wether we like it or not. If you owned a restaurant and 80% of the people in your dining room wanted steak, 15% want chicken and 5% don't care. Are you going to serve everyone chicken because you feel it's better for them? Some might say ***** it and force down the chicken, but many might just get up and go to a different restaurant. Wouldn't you agree?

Nobody wants to do an easter egg hunt to find what they need. They need to quit trying to make the retainer system like an AH and just make a damned AH.
#145 Oct 16 2010 at 1:19 PM Rating: Excellent
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I think most people agree that the original implementation of the Bazaar system was horrible. No matter where you stand on the game.

The updates version, is a minor improvement. But it's still basically the same system with a bit more organization.

A future update will give us a search function. Now we're talking.

But one sec,

A market, Where you can search for an item, and buy it from other players. Thats an AH. The only difference is you will have to actually run over to the retainer and buy it. So what we're left with is an extremely inefficient Auction House.

Now SE will never bow down and say, "ok we thought it would work, but it didn't, sorry we tried", and just make an AH. They will just keep implementing addons, and improvements like "Search", and eventually a little npc to fetch your purchases from the retainer and send it to your "mailbox". untill 2 years from now it will just be an AH. But not an AH. But basically one. Just not called AH.

Edited, Oct 16th 2010 3:21pm by KristoFurwalken
#146 Oct 16 2010 at 1:32 PM Rating: Good
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I thought of a pretty good idea (At least I think so).
Why don't they have an NPC that will buy weapons, armor, mats, etc... for a set price from players. Then keep track of how many it has bought, and sell them to players looking for that item (if it has any). That way its still fair cash for players crafting / farming wanting to sell their mats, and players will be able to find the items that they need. The set prices will keep RMT people, and greedy players from jacking up the prices on things just because they want money.
Also have the NPC put like a 100% increase on the items it buys (example: NPC will buy a dodoskin for 300g and sell it for 600g). Which will allow the bazaar system to still exist for people who want to make more than the NPC offers, and sell items for less than the NPC does (example: set the dodoskin price to 500 in their bazaar). So people who like searching through every bazaar (ARG...) will be happy, and get a lower price for the item by searching through bazaars (reward for effort), and people that hate doing it will be have somewhere to buy / sell stuff.
This would be a very functional, UNIQUE, market system that will keep people on both ends of the argument happy, and keep RMT people from jacking up prices.
If you guys want to add anything to my idea, or critisize it. I'm gonna start a new thread on the discussion forum with this topic.
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#147 Oct 16 2010 at 1:35 PM Rating: Good
8 posts
Auction houses are unlikely to ruin the game when everyone's at the stage that they sniff each others butts (inventory check) as they walk past. Game can only go up when it's this bad...
#148 Oct 16 2010 at 2:38 PM Rating: Good
47 posts
This is like Ebay (auction house) vs wet market (where merchant hiding their stuffs in the bag, and you have to ask every one for item u want)

I veto eBay style.

I think SE just want to waste everyone time as much as possible coz They don't have any mid or end game content.

Dev will update game every 3 months. I think I have to wait for year when this game will be ready.

#149 Oct 16 2010 at 2:49 PM Rating: Good
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seriously at least with a AH you knew where to find the goods, and knew where the price stands, with retainers it hard to find adequate pricing, you would have to check all retainers which is tedious, mark all the pricing of the items your searching then compare what is worth the price. this bring a whole new level of headaches cause what you buy could not be very well the price its worth.
#150 Oct 16 2010 at 4:32 PM Rating: Decent
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I'm one of those people who would like an AH but don't need one. If they can get the retainer service up to where I think they should, I think categorized shopping is fine enough. By adding the search functions, they are basically making the retainers into an unorganized AH anyhow. You seek for an item and then go to the seller instead of buy out of a menu. An AH would be like instant gratification at this point though, especially after all the bugs and issues at hand. I mainly craft in the game and I find myself struggling to get the new crafting tools. However, if we can get 2 more retainers and have that much more space and able to sell at the same time, I am willing to let SE try their new economic child.

One of the things about the AH that I think is delaying their implementation is that you have to add a distribution service as well. No AH without mail. They are lacking that feature too. I would also like to know what the point of retainer levels is. I may have missed something with that stat, maybe I should reread the manual.

A retainer is a nice moghouse-sale-mule, but an AH would make the gaming community happy. Right now, I know SE wants their new artistic MMO direction to be unchanged by the community, but they need to pick their battles. The gamers right now want an AH and a mailing system. Regardless of how I feel about retainers, I am in the minority. Thank you SE for giving us some feedback and letting us know what was behind your secret curtain, but we need an economy right now and a way to exchange goods without a time sink.

Why not give the players both options. Would the implementation of both ideas ruin the economy? I think SE not wanting to implement an AH is a result of how FFXI lost a lot of the reason to craft low level items in the later years. No one wanted to craft to make gear that wasn't HQ or mass production because over time the economy and the player base had matured so much that low level gear was not a priority and the crafted goods would just sit in the AH indefinately until someone got tired and NPC'd them. If there is no AH there might be an increase in NPC'd goods which removes the overflow from the economy so that the supply does not over saturate the demand.

I might have babbled on a bit, but ultimately I don't mind either system if it is implemented well. The problem is the single retainer, the horrid lag, and the lack of prioritized direction in the wards. Fix those 3 things and I think people will learn to live without an AH. Otherwise, they won't live this one down anytime soon.

~Skye
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#151 Oct 16 2010 at 5:39 PM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
Hey, OP, there are plenty of things you can do in real life to waste your life away. Perhaps watching trees grow might be a task suitable for your immense desire to trickle away the years. And I don't doubt you could make friends with a few of those trees in the process. However, just because you think it's enjoyable and fun to waste time accomplishing nothing at all doesn't mean everyone else does.

So if/when they finally do add an auction house, and you still want to maintain the realistic inefficiency you currently enjoy then I have some suggestions for you:

1. Avoid it altogether and do what you're doing now to find the things you need. It'll be your own personal Mission: Impossible anytime you need something!

2. Use the auction house to find people with the items you need. Message those people about the goods you desire from them and lay out some elaborate process that enhances the realism of the entire ordeal before you will agree to purchase. Some of those people might even indulge you, and wouldn't they make perfect friends?

3. Spam the chat channels with WTB messages for all the things you need, and fervently make your case about the wickedness of the auction house to anyone and everyone that tells you to use it.

And lastly, OP, I have to wonder on your thoughts regarding Teleporting. Do you just run everywhere you need to go?

Dead sock is dead


At first I was -.-


but then I lol'd :D

~Skye
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