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A Typical FFXIV Argument.Follow

#1 Oct 05 2010 at 5:07 PM Rating: Default
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Person1: This game sucks, the crafting is too hard, the UI is slow as ****, and I'm really not having any fun playing at all.
Person2: Umm...the crafting's fun, my actions are taking a fraction of a second to register, and I'm really enjoying this game a lot. I don't really see what your issue is.
Person1 proceeds to curse out Person2 and call them a fanboy, then attempts (and fails) to find a way to mute Person2. Person2 just stops saying anything, knowing better than to argue with the type of person person1 is.
Person2 then proceeds to 4/5 a crafting leve that is 3 ranks higher than their rank. Each synth takes less than 45 seconds.






Sound familiar? It happens every day in this game, and even on the boards. The last part was added on because it was something that happened to me personally today. I really couldn't help but think that this is almost exactly how every single hate vs like conversation has gone for this game. Sure, the game has a ways to go before it is "complete" even in the Devs' eyes. Doesn't mean it is terrible or will fail horridly. If it was really that bad, people wouldn't be so vocal in attempting to denounce it. They would just quit, say nothing about it unless asked, and especially not lash out at any one who is actually enjoying the game.
Any thoughts on the matter from the general community here, aside from the insults that person1 used? I am not attempting to stir up any trouble, I am genuinely interested in why every conversation seems to go exactly the same.

Edited, Oct 5th 2010 6:09pm by Uryuu
#2 Oct 05 2010 at 5:11 PM Rating: Decent
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Stop liking what I don't like guys it's making me really mad. >:( I'm gonna tell mom.
#3 Oct 05 2010 at 5:18 PM Rating: Decent
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You are lucky for synthing then..

I tried doing a level 10 carpentry as level 9 WITH synthing support and failed everytime. Though that was 2 days ago, maybe something has changed. Also tried a level 10 cooking at level 9 cooking same result :( Though I did hit 100% once it also hit 0 durability then as well
#4 Oct 05 2010 at 5:22 PM Rating: Good
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This is certainly not the average conversation. Most people are a little more respectful than to tear you limb from limb for what you enjoy. And most people who like the game aren't civil enough to disengage and keep it from escalating. Most arguments go more like :

Player 1: I @#%^ing hate this piece of sh*t game, the UI is trash, I don't know WTF SE WA THINKING when they thought this game was ready for release. This is bullsh*t, I can't even find the items I need to synth (outside of a leve where all the materials are provided to you). Anyone who enjoys this game the way it is is a @#%^ing ******. How dare you enjoy something I don't!!!111!!!!1!

Player 2: You're a @#%^ing moron, go play WoW (because everyone who doesn't like everything SE does is apparently a Blizzard Fanboi) for the rest of your life you loser! You just don't like playing a game that actually takes SKILL (repetition) and requires you to THINK (Have a massive amount of time to dedicate to mindless soul-sucking game mechanics). If you don't like it, leave. How dare you point out that SE released a game before it was ready for retail and expect people to pay for an unfinished product!!!!11!!1

The conversation you had was as you can see, much more sensible and civil than average. Good for you for enjoying the game instead of attacking him for not liking it. But at the same time, alot of what people complain about in game is VERY simple stuff that should have been fixed before the game even went into open beta much less release. In fact it's stuff that the alpha, closed beta, and open beta community has repeatedly pointed out to SE over the last several months. It's understandably frustrating when they just don't seem to care enough to add something as simple as an inventory sort function.

But I digress, I'm very pleased you enjoy they game. I just hope that SE will find a way to make it enjoyable for the rest of us who want it to be a good game too!





Edited, Oct 5th 2010 7:38pm by SickleSageKiroh
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#5 Oct 05 2010 at 5:23 PM Rating: Decent
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@Smelly Actually, the guy said he was going to work. Doubt he's a child, though his argument was certainly childlike.

@Tans, Not really, I just use crafting gear and Maker's Muse. Never use rapid, it's trash now, bold if I am going for quality and know I won't bomb the synth. The one fail I had was due to the element becoming unstable and blowing up :(

@Sicklesage, I see, so I am the exception to the rule when it comes to arguments on this matter, then. That helps to put things into perspective.. If they're expecting people who like the game to act in that manner, then maybe they are less inclined to be civil as well?


Any more thoughts?

Edited, Oct 5th 2010 6:27pm by Uryuu
#6 Oct 05 2010 at 5:32 PM Rating: Decent
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Certainly when people expect aggression it's far less likely to get a civil response from them. A lot of people simply can't (or won't) accept that someone can think a different way than they do and be happy. And this cuts down both sides of the aisle. A lot of people who like the game see someone pointing out flaws in the game mechanics as a personal attack on what they enjoy.

When it comes to the way someone feels about something, very rarely do the conversations stay civil for long.
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#7 Oct 05 2010 at 5:57 PM Rating: Good
I think it's a matter of severity.

Everyone acknowleges the game has flaws, it's a matter of how we react to those flaws.

Some take a very severe return to the flaws in this game, avowing to not play and trying to discourage others to.

Some are fine for now as is, and are, in fact, enjoying thesmeves and wanting to see the game flourish with the majoirty of its framework intact, content to support SE while they work on the flaws.

Personally my primary issue is with the constant negativity and debating of the first camp. Then again, I'm one of those contented thus far to wait and enjoy the game.

But there's nothing wrong with either of those opinions on their own, spoken respectfully. But the way they react to each other inside this community is inexcusable. The nay-sayers can act more responsibly, quit baiting and flooding the forums with the negativity and really focus on the points and stop attacking the part of the community that actually enjoys the game.

The fans of the game need to do more to simply acknowledge the flaws and discuss how it can be improved while still preserving the parts of the game that are enjoyed even with (or because of) its flaws.

Both need to stop with the rate hikes and nukes.

And most importantly, the Moderators need to crack down on both sides harder. MUCH harder. A few 'public hangings' will do a lot to get this community back in order again. (Seriously, disable rating for the main boards for a while, and start sniping threads and posts hard on both sides to prove a point against flaming.) It might be a bit more work, but it would do wonders for the forums itself. ZAM has a lot more competition for FFXIV communities than FFXI ones, so it stands they need to step up the game to keep it a bit more tidy.

But honestly, there are very few if any FFXIV arguments in game. They're mainly just taking place in the forums.
#8 Oct 05 2010 at 6:02 PM Rating: Decent
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Anyone else notice how my topic rating on a perfectly civil conversation went from Excellent to Decent so quickly? I guess that regardless of how civil one is, there will always be those who feel they must attempt to hurt them in any way possible. Kind of disappointed in the general community here at Zam at this time, aside from the few shining stars who help in a civil manner. I do think I shall take a break from posting until the community is at a point where one shall not be rated simply upon their stance on the game, but on the actual content of their posts. Farewell for now, Zam. It was a good few years.

@Hyrist I couldn't agree more, except on the lack of arguments in game. I seem to come across them all the time, but I usually know better than to correct their mistakes when they are in such a foul mood. Anyways, this shall be my last post for quite a long time. Maybe I'll be back when they do these "public hangings" you speak of.

Edited, Oct 5th 2010 7:04pm by Uryuu
#9 Oct 05 2010 at 6:04 PM Rating: Decent
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Saturday there were a few people in Ul'Dah whining in shout about how hard and stupid the game is. I suggested that if they don't like playing that they move on to a new game, what's the point of playing a game you aren't enjoying? They continued to call me a fanboy and made fun of the surname my wife and I chose by calling me "Appledork". At that point I blisted them and went on my way having fun.
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#10 Oct 05 2010 at 6:05 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Person1: This game sucks, the crafting is too hard, the UI is slow as ****, and I'm really not having any fun playing at all.
Person2: Umm...the crafting's fun, my actions are taking a fraction of a second to register, and I'm really enjoying this game a lot. I don't really see what your issue is.

You're creating a strawman here, and someone with an alternate viewpoint could just as easily make up another strawman argument that consists of:

Person1: This game has strong foundations, but severe design problems make it nearly impossible to enjoy it.
Person2: This game is great, and if you don't like it, stop posting here because you're only going to ruin it for us!

If you're going to cherry-pick the dumbest arguments from one side and the best rebuttals from another, then the entire exercise is pointless, since you lose the context of the discussion in question. Context and supporting statements matter.
#11 Oct 05 2010 at 6:11 PM Rating: Decent
Edited by bsphil
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Uryuu wrote:
Person1: This game sucks, the crafting is too hard, the UI is slow as ****, and I'm really not having any fun playing at all.
Person2: Umm...the crafting's fun, my actions are taking a fraction of a second to register, and I'm really enjoying this game a lot. I don't really see what your issue is.
Person1 proceeds to curse out Person2 and call them a fanboy, then attempts (and fails) to find a way to mute Person2. Person2 just stops saying anything, knowing better than to argue with the type of person person1 is.
Person2 then proceeds to 4/5 a crafting leve that is 3 ranks higher than their rank. Each synth takes less than 45 seconds.
For as much as that happens, so does this:

Person1: This game sucks, the crafting is too hard, the UI is slow as ****, and I'm really not having any fun playing at all.
Person2: Well stop ******** and GTFO, nobody cares what you think.

Apparently many people beat me to the punch. Oh well, I was eating. Point still stands.

Edited, Oct 5th 2010 7:12pm by bsphil
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#12 Oct 05 2010 at 7:21 PM Rating: Excellent
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@Uryuu:
People attacking others who don't agree with them is (sadly) not an issue that only ZAM deals with, it's just more obvious on the internet where people will insult you to your face rather than behind your back like they do irl. Anonymity is a wonderful and terrible thing that way. But even on the internet those kind of people would still rather stab you in the back with a rate down than make a post explaining why they disagree with what you say.

@bsphil:
Rate down for eating instead of trolling ZAM, shame on you! D=

(And as a pre-emptive notice: that was a JOKE people, I did not rate him down.)
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Q: How many SE employees does it take to change a lightbulb?
A: None, it's working as intended.
#13 Oct 05 2010 at 7:31 PM Rating: Decent
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It's been said once, so I'll say it again.

STOP USING YOUR MELEE GEAR TO CRAFT IN.

Crafting is not some side activity you can do with no effort and expect it to do well. Crafting (And Gathering) are there own separate classes. They are completely effected by physical stats, elemental affinities, control+, craftsmanship+, and more. The -only- problem people had, was the confusing and cryptic orb colors. SE explained that, and personally, I have seen a great deal more of success in my crafting.

#14 Oct 05 2010 at 8:10 PM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
Anyone else notice how my topic rating on a perfectly civil conversation went from Excellent to Decent so quickly? I guess that regardless of how civil one is, there will always be those who feel they must attempt to hurt them in any way possible.

I imagine it's because you took a very slanted stance that painted the game's critics as idiots. Other posters pointed this out, and you'll notice that they were rated down too.

Quote:
Any thoughts on the matter from the general community here, aside from the insults that person1 used?

I'm glad that some people are enjoying the game. What I have a problem with are the ones who are in absolute denial over the game's flaws, because if enough people take that attitude nothing is going to get better. Earlier today someone on this board told me that FFXIV's lack of a delivery system is a good feature. That's a level of delusion I cannot tolerate.

Quote:
If it was really that bad, people wouldn't be so vocal in attempting to denounce it. They would just quit

Those of us here complaining aren't rooting for FFXIV to fail. We're here because we see a game with great potential crashing and burning. We want it saved.
#15 Oct 05 2010 at 9:13 PM Rating: Decent
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Player 1: I am really busy with work and everything else. This game takes too much time.

Player 2: I live in my parents basement and have rarely had a steady job, so I have lots of time to kill.
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