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Question about WoW and FFXIFollow

#1 Oct 05 2010 at 9:59 PM Rating: Decent
300 posts
I know this is a forum about FFXIV. I just recently got into a discussion with a guy that played WoW. I played FFXI. Since we've never played each others games we were arguing which game had the hardest HNMs. So I need someone that played both.

He said Lich King was harder than Absolute Virtue. In my eyes there is nothing harder than him lol
#2 Oct 05 2010 at 10:04 PM Rating: Decent
421 posts
the difference is you can kill lich king, AV is a sham.

#3 Oct 05 2010 at 10:13 PM Rating: Good
38 posts
I don't know anything about AV but the lich king was really easy.
#4 Oct 05 2010 at 10:26 PM Rating: Good
205 posts
I remember vaguely that when the Lich King instance was released a group defeated it within a few days. Another premier website posted this and Blizzard had requested that they pull down the article.

Absolute Virtue was undefeated by one of the TOP hardcore end game shells, Order of the Blue Garter, before it was detuned. I think they did a full 24 hour battle, swapping people globally and they still could not defeat it.

Even Panemonium Warden took some of the best hardcore linkshells 18 hours + and they didn't defeat him. I believe he transformed into 15 forms originally and they only got to 7 or 8.

These were eventually detuned by SE in response to the negative publicity that happened with these events. Even though they were "hardcore" mobs, the public still took it as they were regular mobs that everyone HAD to fight to beat the game. ...>.>

Mind you these are hardcore gaming events meaning that casual gamers will probably never partake in these because they are designed only for the hardcore.

I don't mean to brag, but when Order of the Blue Garter went to WoW, using the tactics used in FFXI, they kind of cleaned house on EVERYTHING that was released on the Burning Crusade, including Illidan at that time. I heard stories of how BG stormed Ironforge and held the city prisoner lol.
It's not who we are, but what we do that define us. - Batman Begins
#5 Oct 05 2010 at 10:30 PM Rating: Good
158 posts
KayannaBigGrr wrote:
I heard stories of how BG stormed Ironforge and held the city prisoner lol.

Not that many people care about 'raids', as long as you don't mess with the auction NPCs. Raids on city leaders were common when I played, too. People did it for the achievement that gave the black war bear reward. People weren't interested in defending the 'leaders'. This was on a pvp server, too.

WoW's pvp has degraded to the point where world pvp is practically dead. The world PvP aspect pretty much comes down to overzealous newbs or PVE'ers who see a red name and go nuts, or some guy who can't cut it at max level running around on lower leveled characters ganking 'lowbies'. That's about it.

The rest of PVP is largely grinding honor for gear in battlegrounds, getting arena rating/points in arena, or lower bracket battlegrounds where people go nowadays for exp when/if they're not up for questing/instance grinding.

Edited, Oct 6th 2010 1:04am by ghosthacked
#6 Oct 05 2010 at 10:38 PM Rating: Good
300 posts
Yeah I tried explaining to him earlier today that a linkshell went 24hours fighting and was never able to bring it down lol. I think that alone pretty much sums it up. I do remember the first LS that beat Panemonium Warden. I remember seeing pictures of the whole LS posted on some website and some SAM got some beastly shirt from it.

How do those Blue Garter survive in the real world? I mean I don't hate what-so-ever. If their rich and don't need a job and can play 24/7 without anyone nagging on them, then more power to them. Generally to be part of a hardcore LS like that you can't have a job. I just wondered how people survived doing it.
#7 Oct 05 2010 at 10:57 PM Rating: Good
You can't really just compare lich king to AV, as AV was meant to not be beat and Lich king was meant to be beat eventually by all dedicated raid groups. Lich king hard mode before the eventual stacking buff is more similar, but even he's still part of the story. Probably the hardest mob in WoW when it was level appropriate content was:

He was an extra boss after you kill the main boss of the raid.
Die! Die die die. die die die die, die die. - Scarlet Briar
#8 Oct 05 2010 at 11:01 PM Rating: Good
300 posts
Sorry man. I wasn't comparing. My friend who played WoW was saying Lich King was the hardest. He picked his and I picked mine. It's funny because he's playing XIV but won't play XI. He says XI was too slow. I think XIV is 10x slower lol
#9 Oct 06 2010 at 2:16 AM Rating: Excellent
386 posts
The only hard thing about MMOs is finding enough people that are reliable but not retarded.
#10 Oct 06 2010 at 2:18 AM Rating: Decent
322 posts
WoW had Fire. FFXI had multi hour long fights.
#11 Oct 06 2010 at 3:19 AM Rating: Excellent
963 posts
FFXI HNM are not hard. They just require..... a lot of time and endurance for the most part. And some claim bots. You don't really do anything much when fighting HNM....

WoW tho they seem to have a more robust idea about how the fight should be. There are events during fight, change in strategy and all little things that makes it a little more interesting than FFXI's HNM IMO.
#12wrongfeifong, Posted: Oct 06 2010 at 3:24 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) You should compare Dynamis vs their Raiding. The true 64 players dungeon vs their crappy 40 man raiding.
#13 Oct 06 2010 at 4:24 AM Rating: Default
no comparison .. honestly WoW to ffxi?
pllayed em both. 50 mage wow.
75 rdm/nin ffxi.
the redmage alone could tear alot of or pretty much ALL of WoW a new one. No really rdm/nin merrits.. and not to shabby equipped can kik ALOT of *** and take a long list of names.
King mobs vrs King wow mobs. Not even a contest. I mean never mind 2 diferatn totally games.
And you can not even pretend to copare damage dealt by mobs. It is just FFXI over wow is truly the art of the mind. Nothing is cookie cutter so your skils powers armor weapons you are holding are not actaully going to do you any good. UNLESS you are a very smart intuitive player.
in WoW i found the strictness of skills or spells to use in fights was not near as imporatnat in FXI.
WoW world is not in tune or in a cycle like FFXI had done in thier world.
Becuase of the relation of mobs to elements FFXI was Much harder and more rewarding to lpay. Not to mnetion a better story by far.
You can ot compare apples to oranges but if you are going t o try, Apples are way more accepted than a tough ole orange.
Ohh .and I know it LOOKS familuar bt FFXIV and FXI are differant games aswell. familuar yes. But not the same game so a head to head is just making talk not being practicle.
#14 Oct 06 2010 at 4:32 AM Rating: Good
1,339 posts
wrongfeifong wrote:
You should compare Dynamis vs their Raiding. The true 64 players dungeon vs their crappy 40 man raiding.

@least the boss doesn't do the same "sh*t" every moves in FFXI, wow is 100% predictable, that is why there are apps that tell you which stage the boss is in, where to run, and what to do. Patterns Patterns Patterns!

You can do the behemoth 18 man orb battle 100 times, but you will find yourself lose @least 50 times. That's how hard FFXI compare to WoW.

So.... it's not raiding unless you have half a million people, is basically what you're saying? What a moronic outlook on it.

As far as "bosses do the same moves" yeah they do. If you bother to pay attention, FFXI's aren't that hard -- you either kited, or you tank'n'spanked it. There wasn't ever any 'original' design in boss fights in FFXI and about halfway through the game's life they just degenerated into "En-Doom/En-Stone/En-Death/etc." procs on attack and a wide array of raid wiping moves -- all at the mercy of the RNG.

Patterns? There isn't a single video game out there, that's worth a ****, where bosses didn't perform 'patterns'. If you think WoW's the only one that does so, you're a fool. Castlevania, Legend of Zelda, Mario, Final Fantasy, and virtually any decent series does so. Welcome to reality.

Coding fights so that there's a high probability that the player will die through no fault of his or her own is basically what you're advocating? That doesn't mean that a game's bosses are 'harder'. It means the developers have zero imagination and didn't bother to try to do anything special with the game engine. If you have to rely on RNG to make your boss fights 'hard' then urdoinitrong.
#15 Oct 06 2010 at 4:38 AM Rating: Decent
5 posts
LK is instanced,

AV isnt

LK need 4hrs of trash/boss clearing to get to by 10 ppl,

AV is a token collection fest to pop it once,

the guys that took LK out first day it was released also ran practice runs on the PTR servers before LK was released on the live servers,

the 2 dont compare,

xi has a penalty for failed attempts, and only a repair bill for a wipe in wow,

the fights dont compare,
#16 Oct 06 2010 at 5:08 AM Rating: Decent
2,987 posts
Lafaiel wrote:
the difference is you can kill lich king, AV is a sham.

AV is very killable, now...
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#17 Oct 06 2010 at 6:26 AM Rating: Excellent
wrongfeifong wrote:
You should compare Dynamis vs their Raiding. The true 64 players dungeon vs their crappy 40 man raiding.

Pretty much everything in dyna is/can be done with less than a full ally. Because, ya know... it's dyna. Who the @#$% takes 64 people to something like that?

wrongfeifong wrote:
You can do the behemoth 18 man orb battle 100 times, but you will find yourself lose @least 50 times. That's how hard FFXI compare to WoW.

Or do it with a party and maybe lose a couple times out of those 100 tries due to random bad luck.

I'm guessing you don't actually play FFXI...? Endgame has always been easy, and now it's even easier. The only reason AV was ever "hard" was because everytime someone found a way to kill it, SE would ******* patch it and make unkillable again. Now with the lvl cap raise and superior gear being out, they just don't give a crap and it gets beaten round the clock by many linkshells.
#18 Oct 06 2010 at 7:12 AM Rating: Excellent
3,702 posts
Yeah the key difference between the lich king fight and AV was that the Lich King was meant to be defeated.

The hard mode version actually took quite a long time comparatively to its normal version (which was beaten like 12 hours after it was released), but once again... it was intended that the boss was possible to kill.

I would say you can't directly compare FFXI endgame to WoW endgame, they're different beasts and require different types of skill and commitment to complete due to how the encounters are structured and how the endgame systems themselves are structured (tiered content vs horizontal progression)
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#19 Oct 06 2010 at 7:26 AM Rating: Excellent
106 posts
OK anybody using Lich King normal mode in this argument is just wrong. Normal modes aren't designed to challenge the elite guilds anymore... that's what Blizzard added the hard modes for.

The first Heroic Lich King kill was on March 26 by Paragon. They got to the Lich King on Feb 12th, 1.5 months before they managed to kill him. The Icecrown Citadel raid was released on December 8th or 9th.

Plus, pretty much anything from this expansion is a bad example because most of the hardcore raiders will tell you that Sunwell Plateau from the Burning Crusade expansion was the hardest raid, and that M'uru (pre-nerf) was the hardest non-bugged and killable boss in WoW history. Bugged encounters and impossible fights should NOT be included in the debate.
#20 Oct 06 2010 at 7:31 AM Rating: Default
88 posts
Having played both for about 3 years a piece, they are just very different. FFXI had a way better storyline, which matters a lot to me. Rather, it had a storyline at all. WoW just has random kill 10 monsters quests (sadly much like ffxiv levequests) where ffxi had in depth cutscene storyline missions. Luckily it seems ffxiv also gets nice cutscenes with real story. In the first hour of gameplay there are more cutscenes in ffxiv even than in the entirety of WoW. As such, gameplay in FFXI seemed more rewarding because there WAS a storyline and it gives you the feeling of a true RPG as compared to the endless gearing up pointlessness that I always felt in WoW. FFXI also didn't outmode all of your gear every 2 months by releasing a new rediculously higher set of gear. Once you were 75 you could keep most of the stuff you got nearly forever (until very recently when the caps raised).

The biggest difference is the PEOPLE. The players of WoW are a bunch of overprivileged, full of themself, narcisistic egomaniacs who care nothing about common decency and are not above rude and racist comments publicly in trade chat channels. This did not happen to any extent in FFXI as it did in WoW. The maturity level of the average WoW player was around 13 years old where the average maturity level of an FFXI player was around 21. It made for a much different atmosphere and a much better sense of community. It wasn't just a "mine's bigger than yours" game. It was a "look what we finally accomplished as a group" kind of game.

As for HNMs, they did not require the patterned fights in FFXI like they did in WoW, but they did require that people could adapt more quickly due to situations gone awry. You couldn't just wipe and do it again in FFXI like you could in WoW. If you wiped there would be no more HNM for you at all as another guild would take it long before your group made it back to try again. And if it were dynamis for instance, and you wiped, there is a timer, unlike WoW, so you can't just keep retrying. You have to get it right in just a couple tries maximum or the timer runs out and you fail. There's more pressure per attempt in FFXI and you get fewer attempts so people have to pay more attention and can't just go by luck. On the other hand, yes, most boss fights in FFXI are tank'n spank or kite with a few subtleties, like run away when he casts deathga 25 or something. It was more the abilities than than the patterns that made FFXI HNMs hard.

Edited, Oct 6th 2010 9:39am by haydyn323
#21 Oct 06 2010 at 8:07 AM Rating: Decent
237 posts
haydyn323 wrote:
FFXI also didn't outmode all of your gear every 2 months by releasing a new rediculously higher set of gear. Once you were 75 you could keep most of the stuff you got nearly forever (until very recently when the caps raised).

This was actually one of my beefs with FFXI. I found it quite annoying that after 5 years and umpteen new HNMs, I still didn't have a good reason to wear anything but my Byakko's Haidate. There was no such thing as an upgrade, only sidegrades.

haydyn323 wrote:
The biggest difference is the PEOPLE. The players of WoW are a bunch of overprivileged, full of themself, narcisistic egomaniacs who care nothing about common decency and are not above rude and racist comments publicly in trade chat channels.

Thank you for the broad over-generalization. Yes, Trade chat is often full of rubbish. No, that does not mean that everyone who plays WoW thinks and acts that way.

Anyways, back on topic, IMO, FFXI bosses are usually more challenging than WoW bosses, for one main reason. RNG. In WoW, you know the boss will use X move every 30 seconds, and summon adds every 45, and that at 25% health ability Z will trigger. In FFXI you knew the boss had abilities A, B and C, but you couldn't tell exactly when they would use it, or how quickly the next ability would go off. Basically, WoW bosses allow for more planning while FFXI bosses tend to be more reactionary.

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#22 Oct 06 2010 at 8:25 AM Rating: Decent
5 posts
After reading some of the replies I find that some of the comments people made on the board was very unfair to WoW. *By the way English is not my first language please excuse my grammar. I played both FFXI and WoW before and I loved both games. However, due to work issue I no longer have the time for FFXI so I don't know how things are in FFXI right now. Anyway back to the topic.

From what I seen in FFXI and WoW. The two games end mechanism is totally different. FFXI HNM fight is designed to last long hours. They last long hours because SE design them to last long. The HNM had insane amount of HP's and ridiculous amount of defense. Most of our melees and casters barely damage the HNM. People can't just automatically assume FFXI HNM is harder just because they can last couple of hours. During those long fight I find myself doing the same thing over and over for hours(remembering back in the Tiamat days). Also one thing I must point out during the fight on Tiamat. We had a bunch of backups during the Tiamat fight. If one of our tank dies we switch in another one. If one of the healers or DD dies we switch in another one.

For WoW, Blizzard clearly stated they do not want boss fights in the game to last more than 30min however, does that makes WoW any less harder than FFXI? **** no, during that 30min you have tons of things to worry about. If one person in the raid screwed up, the person is very likely to wipe the entire raid. Almost every raid bosses I encounter, you won't be able to stand in one position and doing same thing over and over. The fights require you to worry about the debuffs and buffs on both you and the boss, environment and positioning also plays a huge factor in every end game raid boss fights. I still remembered my guild wipes on Sindragosa all night because one of our caster too lazy to move his **** during the air-phase and wipe the whole raid.

At the end, if comparing to which games is harder. The first thing we "shouldn't" compare is the size and the duration. Because their directions on end game bosses fights is just completely different from another. It is not fair for people to say "our game require 60+ people to kill a boss and the game is harder compare to the others". Both games have different rules and restrictions.

Personally on which game is hard: I find FFXI boss harder but simply because SE do not allow third party addons to play FFXI. While on the other hand blizzard allow third party addons to help analyze the boss abilities and when are they going to use certain attacks.

Edited, Oct 6th 2010 10:34am by hkspoon
#23 Oct 06 2010 at 8:39 AM Rating: Decent
92 posts
Uhm... I never played FFXI and I can say this about both games. If you compare two completely different MMO's in the way of gameplay, then you might as well just go kill yourself. Each game has their difficult moments i'm sure.

For those who say Lich King is easy, you need to look at it this way. Lich King 10-man is designed for casuals pretty much now. Lich King 25 is for casuals now. 10-man Heroic is for a little bit more dedication but still pretty easy, and Lich King 25 Heroic is still tough. If it was easy, everyone and their dog would have the title.

I'm pretty sure there's a 'mob' in FFXI that is considered 'current end game'. So when people compare Lich King in WoW to a FFXI battle, or even a FFXIV battle, you need to compare current end game stuff. Don't be pointing at a mob that is level 55 or something in FFXI and you go in as level 75 x 8 or whatever and kill it saying it's easy. If you're going to compare them, just bring up equal terms of comparison please. That's all I ask. People do it on a regular basis.
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