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Story Time! A Crafter's Point of ViewFollow

#1 Oct 07 2010 at 3:34 AM Rating: Excellent
tl;dr: I'm not your chump, chump.

I caught the crafting bug early. As in...open beta early. I enjoy the crafting system. I wish to **** and back that SE would stop tweaking and stealth nerfing it, but I would imagine they're just fine tuning everything right now so I'm trying to roll with the punches. But this isn't a rant about a game system, and hopefully it doesn't come off as much of a rant at all. It's just a story, and there's a lesson involved and that's why I'm sharing.

My first MMO was FFXI. I learned over my time in that game that any MMO is a lot more enjoyable and a lot less frustrating if you attend to business while you're attending to the business of monster slaying. That means taking advantage of the gathering systems the game has in place. It means taking advantage of the crafting systems the game has to multiply your profits. And if a person can manage that, they start earning more game currency than they need to spend and if the game is tuned properly, they even wind up spending less than Joe Average player because a crafter can often make their own goodies.

In no other game is that approach shaping up to be more beneficial than in FFXIV. I can make my own armor now, with bronze bits available to me to last my gladiator into his late 30s. I can make most tier 2 tools and I'll soon be shifting my attention to blacksmithing so that I can make some delicious whacker sticks for my gladiator. (In the meantime, I'm farming on my Thaumaturge and getting some tasty shield skillups in the process).

One thing that I appreciate that SE has done is that they haven't been at all stingy with the drops. It makes managing inventory a bit of a chore right now with the one retainer limitation, but I'm working with it as best I can. What this has meant is that from day one I've always had a surplus of most materials.

A couple of days after CE launched, I joined an LS. Zerg recruitment has never worked out well for me but I had nothing to lose and decided it would be nice to have folks to chat with between crafting binges...I had no intention of seriously pursuing a combat class until I had gotten myself situation for gear and gil. Through the process of getting to know one another, it became known that my focus was on crafting and it just went downhill from there.

It started with some foolish numpty who decided that more than anything else, he wanted a new weapon for his Lancer. I knew I had the goldsmithing skill (if only barely) to make the head and everything else would have been no problem. He kept bugging me for a price. I had no idea what to charge him, and I was in the middle of happily grinding away on one form of rat or another. I quickly tried to recall what I had seen the various different mats selling for,intent on passing along a shiny new Harpoon to him at mat cost. At this time, I hadn't really considered the economy of shards so those didn't even factor into the equation. After a quick search,I also determined that I would need fish glue for the head synthesis, and after he wouldn't leave me alone I finally told him 30k and 3 fish glue (I had mats for 3 heads and wanted a buffer against failures).

At that time, a Harpoon on my server was selling for 60-80k. And with good reason...Soiled Femurs are rare results from mining and if they drop from other things, they aren't a common drop from those either. I had seen them selling for anywhere from 10-15k gil each. The head synthesis required 2. Then there was the matter of the other components that went into the final synth, so again not counting shard value and comparing what i was asking with what I could have earned selling the mats individually, I was taking a loss. And of course, having been saving my gil instead of spending it on mountains of stupid ****, I was looking at the 300-400k I had on hand at the time and thinking 30k would be no big deal.

He agreed to my price and asked where we could meet so that I could make it for him. He was in Ul'dah...I was grinding outside LL. I told him I wouldn't be over that way for at least an hour, at which point he commented that he might as well go farm the rest of the gil he needed to pay for it. That bothered me. What if I had ported directly to him and made it? Was he going to try and convince me to hand it over without full payment? What kind of jackass does that to a complete stranger? I wound up buying the fish glue myself and made 3 harpoons with the other mats I had on hand. When I traded one of the finished ones to him, I took the 30k and the fish glue he had bought. Normally I would have told him to keep the glue, or adjusted the gil amount down to account for it, but I decided to make him suffer a bit for being so presumptuous. I find out after the fact that he went around whining to anyone who would listen that I had overcharged him for something that would have cost him a good amount more (not to mention the time to find someone selling a Harpoon in the first place.)

And it just got worse. Instead of people being intelligent and taking the time to learn about their own class and what gear was suited to it and creating a plan of some sort for how they wanted to gear up, all of a sudden I was getting flooded with daily requests for "pugilist weapons" or "thaumaturge legs" or "archer shoes" and all manner of other **** that suggested very strongly to me that I had cast myself in with a bunch of slack-jawed yokels that wanted nothing more than to grind grind grind their combat class ranks and let someone else do the thinking for them. I eventually started taking a firm line and telling people that if they don't know exactly what they want to go out and determine exactly what they want before they ask me if I can make it.

And then we had one guy...an officer, no less...who had made a small fortune playing the shard market. He'd buy low and sell high in vast quantities and within the first 7-10 days of service, he had amassed over 1 million gil. When he reached about the 1.5 million gil mark, he went on a spending spree. Excluding the 400k he spent on a sword from an NPC vendor, he spent 800k on bronze armor for his gladiator. Armor that most people weren't anywhere near being able to make yet. The fabled Bronce Haubergeon, a Bronze Celeta, etc. etc. 800k. Over 100k per piece, buying at a time when only a small handful of people were making the gear and hundreds of people wanting to get their hands on it. And the whole time he was talking about each piece he was about to buy, I was trying to tell him that i had the mats on hand to skill up to the point where I could make those items and if he wanted to funnel some shards my way from his vast inventory, I could save him a small fortune.

Nope. He had to have it, and he had to have it NOW.

A few days later (last night, in fact), buyer's remorse kicked in. He decided to do his homework after he spent all the gil and found out that no, those items didn't cost anywhere near what he paid for them to make. And so it was that he went on a ranting tirade, decreeing that henceforth, all LS crafters would provide their services at mat cost and be grateful to have someone pay for the materials they use to skill up on. I believe his words were along the lines of, "be thankful for the free xp." This bothered me. I don't like other people dictating to me what I should be charging. My mats, my shards, my time, my choice.

By this time I had already taken to trading shards for gear instead of gil. It just seemed to work out better that way but what I didn't realize was that people who don't craft have no sodding clue what is involved in the process. So when I ask for 200 earth shards and 100 wind shards for a suit of bronze chainmail or sentinel's chainmail, people get uptight. They assume I'm gouging them. Nevermind that it takes 90 shards to go from bronze wire -> bronze vest and sleeves for one suit of armor. Nevermind that in the case of the bronze chain/sentinel's chain, I have to make an entire tabard with weaving that takes another several dozen shards and numerous other materials. All they see is one shiny piece of armor and assume they must be getting hosed.

Last night I made my first bronze haubergeon. I wound up making three of them, actually (out of 4 attempts). I put them in my bazaar at a very reasonable price relative to current market value and when I checked today, they had all sold. I had mentioned in LS chat last night that I had made some because I was excited. It was fun. Took a long time, though. And hundreds of shards.

So I log in today after work and it wasn't long before someone asked me if I had any haubergeons left. I told them no, and that for the time being they were not for sale to LS people. My rationale was simple. There was already too much whining over the cost of this and the cost of that and "oh I'm so broke" and I just couldn't imagine handing over rank 27 gear to rank 16-22 people and having to listen to them ***** about the repair cost. I told them that I would have some available in time, but not right now. Someone asked me what they'd cost, and before i had a chance to answer, the bitter officer from the night before pops up and says (paraphrased), "pffft you shouldn't be charging more than 20k. The mats only cost about 15k and that leaves you 5k profit."

Uhhh...pardon? From base materials to finished product, each piece of armor takes me in the neighborhood of 20-30 minutes to make. Shard cost is not as bad as the lower chain pieces because the haubergeon doesn't require the tabard from weaving as a base material. Regardless, over 100 shards + 1 earth crystal for the final combine on a server where common price of shards is 200g each, that's over 20k in shards right there. So right off the top I've got an officer in the LS telling everyone not to pay me more than it would cost to replace the shards. Thank you, *******, for a) being ignorant b) being a dictatorial prick and c) using your ignorance as cause to make me look like a profiteering jerk. Truth be told, if I were to sell for gil I'd be asking 40-50k from LS mates, or probably 150 earth shards and 50-75 wind shards. That's it. That recovers shard cost and compensates me for some of the materials relative to current prices. I don't mind taking a loss on mats because I have so many, but that doesn't mean I'm going to hand them out to every numpty who decides they want to be uber now now now.

And so I made my position clear and left. I'll find a group of people that wants to do things right and fairly compensate people for their time. i don't need their help. They've got nothing I want, and I've got a whole lot to offer.

The moral of the story is this: as crafting progresses through the ranks, a lot of the synths become very involved. It takes in the neighborhood of 30 individual synths to make one suit of bronze haubergeon. It takes even more than that for bronze chainmail/sentinel's chainmail. Not everything is two clicks from completion, and not everyone is going to invest the time necessary to produce the goodies you want. If you do find someone who is offering the next best shiny, inform yourself before you take a look at what they're asking and make a scene. If you're expecting something for nothing, you're very likely to walk away with what you're offering.
#2 Oct 07 2010 at 3:45 AM Rating: Good
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**** straight.

on the bright side, as the game progresses, youll *really* be able to gouge the **** outta those bastards as time goes by.
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#3 Oct 07 2010 at 5:22 AM Rating: Decent
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I feel you, Aurelius. :(

If by the slim chance you happen to be in Gysahl, hit me a tell and I can hook you up with my LS if you're still finding a new home. :)
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#4 Oct 07 2010 at 5:30 AM Rating: Excellent
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Good thread. Another thing people need to consider is this :

SE expects some people to play ONLY a craft class. The 'missions' so far have appeared winnable by a lvl 1 anything. So the thing to remember is, if someone DOES focus purely on a craft to become the best supplier of your goods, he isn't out in the field making shards and stockpiling raw materials. The price of him becoming a top crafter, is to have to spend gil on every material.

He has to buy everything off those that do 'go out' into the world and get these. And needs to make enough profit back to afford rarer materials for the next tier of uber goods. This extra cost, naturally, belongs on your price-tag. It's not necessarily gouging.

Even if he DOES go out and get all 'cutting edge' materials/crystals himself AND has become the one that crafts XYZ item. My god give the man some gil! He has been working his *** off so you can gear up and gallivant across fields with fantasy creatures.

Demanding the price be only material price and ignoring crystals,profit for next venture, final item rarity, & labor is forgetting how monetary value works.

My default reply for someone complaining about items being sold for more than material cost is:
"Oh really? You better go buy the materials and craft one then!"
Oh that's right you can't. That would require you to invest mountains more to make it yourself. Now you know what you're really paying for: The effort the crafter has saved you.

Edited, Oct 7th 2010 8:18am by RattyBatty
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#5 Oct 07 2010 at 5:43 AM Rating: Good
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Totally agree with all of your statements, Aurelius. If people don't wanna understand what it is to play FFXIV with their brain and prefer to bash things and harass crafters & good players, they're not worth it. They'll be left behind on end-game and you won't. Keep up the good work !
#6 Oct 07 2010 at 6:21 AM Rating: Good
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The One and Only Aurelius wrote:
Enjoyable story
Man I couldn't agree more with you.

Few things I hope we all can keep in mind while purchasing an item from a crafter:

- No, the crafter is not a fascist dictator trying to monopolize the market because he can do it and you can't.
- No, shards are not "almost free" and/or "more than enough" to charge for them.
- No, crafter's left over materials doesn't go away for free, most of them rather NPC whatever is left rather than give them away w/o a charge.
- No, crafting is not "easy to level" otherwise you will be doing the synthesis instead of asking a crafter to do it for you.
- No, crafters don't get paid to level, and you are not doing them a favor by asking them to synthesize your shiny gear.
- No, charging for synthesizing is not evil, mean or rude; you are requesting a service and better be ready to pay for it.
- No, crafters don't repair for free, you have to cover at the very least the materials required to repair.

Those are 7 No's, if you disagree the easiest way to prove them wrong is to assist to your favorite guild and try to craft the thing yourself.

Ken



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#7 Oct 07 2010 at 6:49 AM Rating: Excellent
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personally i would have left the ls a lot faster with that sort of attitude. you did the right thing
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#8 Oct 07 2010 at 6:49 AM Rating: Excellent
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Wow... I love this story. I haven't started really synthing anything most people will want. I'll typically just farm materials, make whatever I can then NPC the rest, I'm not in any rush to become rich, it's the skill points I'm after for now. I have no real clue how much most materials cost because I haven't bought much, but the few items I do sell I just try to find a price that feels reasonable to me.

This is another reason why I started my crafting linkshell. It's hard to disagree with a crafter's price if the crafter has a linkshell behind him.
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#9 Oct 07 2010 at 7:07 AM Rating: Excellent
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Sorry to hear it but you joined a dud LS. You're better off ditching them and bazaaring your bronze haubergeons for big fat profits until you find a LS that is friendlier.

I joined a rapidly forming LS yesterday, already we have people putting their hands up to become specialist crafters, and those who don't enjoy the crafting are volunteering to trade materials and crystals FREE across the LS. Heck I'm crafting LS items for free because I know others will do the same for me.

So, we have minimal gil needs for intra-LS transactions and just about no ingredient goes to waste. I think this is the kind of game SE were trying to design - it doesn't work as a one man army, you need everybody pulling their weight and helping each other.
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#10 Oct 07 2010 at 8:00 AM Rating: Default
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I am sure its not ment that way but every time I read a post from crafters it comes off sounding like they think there better than us monster hunters. I do no crafting at all. I make my gill selling Crystals/Shards and I make a darn good bit of Gill. ATM I have 2.8 mill. That being said a crafters grind is not difrent than a moster hunters grind. It takes me hour after hour to lvl my Glad/pug/mur/con to Build the best "monster hunter" I can. A crafter spends hour after hour banging at his crafts. In the end its all the same **** grind.

That being said I agree you should have been out of there a lot faster than you where. Crafters never seem to have a problem buying my crystals/shards at a fair price. Why should I have a problem buying there gear at a fair price? I payed all told 400k for my full set of bronze and my Ash muciteu watchyoumacallit. lol I hate that name.

But the fact is you Crafters need us monster hunters just as much as we need you. If it was not for us grinding away at or job you would have no one to sell to. and for that mater you would have to grind your own class to go out there and farm a lot more shards than you do now. And if it was not for you crafters I would be geting my but handed to me in my cottain undies. And all them shards Iv been selling sure would be geting a lil crazy in my invitory atm.
#11 Oct 07 2010 at 8:10 AM Rating: Default
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World of Craftcraft.
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#12 Oct 07 2010 at 8:17 AM Rating: Excellent
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Sethern79 wrote:
I am sure its not ment that way but every time I read a post from crafters it comes off sounding like they think there better than us monster hunters. I do no crafting at all. I make my gill selling Crystals/Shards and I make a darn good bit of Gill. ATM I have 2.8 mill. That being said a crafters grind is not difrent than a moster hunters grind. It takes me hour after hour to lvl my Glad/pug/mur/con to Build the best "monster hunter" I can. A crafter spends hour after hour banging at his crafts. In the end its all the same **** grind.


If anything I think his experience supports your feelings. Crafting is no longer a side job to do while you're waiting for a pick up party. Crafting now requires as much dedication as combat classes. His experience simply showed the naive attitude of a LS towards crafters because they assumed crafting was either fast or cheap, or both. It's neither.

And with NPC repair costs rising exponentially combat classes will depend on crafters for repairs and gear upgrades and crafters will depend on combat classes for materials and crystals. Amazing how much we'll need to rely on each other in an MMO. :D
#13 Oct 07 2010 at 8:25 AM Rating: Excellent
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Excellent story Aurelius, and I feel for you bud. But you definitely did the right thing leaving that LS and it will by far hurt them much more than it'll hurt you. Just because i'm curious what levels and what jobs are you using for crafting? Atm i'm at 15 TAN and struggling with shard supply (been trying to avoid buying, and farming on my own) to grind out some levels, may have to start buying them soon :S. Its funny because I don't think anyone really thinks about crystals/shards expense when someone makes them something.
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#14 Oct 07 2010 at 10:00 AM Rating: Good
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Excellent story Aurelius, and I feel for you bud. But you definitely did the right thing leaving that LS and it will by far hurt them much more than it'll hurt you. Just because i'm curious what levels and what jobs are you using for crafting? Atm i'm at 15 TAN and struggling with shard supply (been trying to avoid buying, and farming on my own) to grind out some levels, may have to start buying them soon :S. Its funny because I don't think anyone really thinks about crystals/shards expense when someone makes them something.


I hit 19 armorer last night. I also have 18 weaver (working up to making undyed canvas cloth). I also have 14 blacksmith, 11 carpentry, and everything else at around rank 12 except cooking which I haven't touched yet. That's what enables me to undercut and still make a tidy profit...I don't have to cruise bazaar farms for cotton cloth or tabards or leather or any of that. Everything I use I make from scratch.
#15 Oct 07 2010 at 10:57 AM Rating: Default
Sethern79 wrote:
But the fact is you Crafters need us monster hunters just as much as we need you. If it was not for us grinding away at or job you would have no one to sell to. and for that mater you would have to grind your own class to go out there and farm a lot more shards than you do now. And if it was not for you crafters I would be geting my but handed to me in my cottain undies. And all them shards Iv been selling sure would be geting a lil crazy in my invitory atm.


Here's the thing, though. I don't need you. At all. Not even a little. Maybe as the game progresses beyond what most people are doing in the monster hunting end of things but right now, I have no need of people with whacker sticks buying my goods. My primary focus was actually getting myself squared away for my own gear because I knew straight up after following this game for over a year that SE was setting it up to be a fully player driven economy right from the start.

You comment that sometimes you get the impression that crafters think they're better than monster hunters. I don't think I'm better than them per se, but I am playing a smarter game than them. The game's not even three weeks old. There's going to be **** all to do at the rank cap for people all in a rush now. And instead of thinking, "Hmmm...there's all this new gear I could get, maybe I should take time out now and work towards being able to make it" they're thinking, "I have <x> amount of gil and I need gear NOW." Dumb. Very dumb. They're paying many times what they could be paying for gear and in a month's time, it's all going to be worth a fraction of what they paid. I'm struggling to stay with the curve...already I'm seeing people cranking out iron chain at the armorer's guild in LL. And when they start filling their bazaars with iron chain this and iron plate that and all those other goodies, people are going to be looking at their 200k gil haubergeon (now worth 30k) and think, "wtf did I do that for?"

When I'm out bombing around farming shards (having an absolute blast with shield + thaumaturge, btw...zomfg) I'm always scoping for the next mob I can handle on the way up. Turns out in this case it'll most likely be aldgoats starting at rank 14 or 15. I love those kinds of fights. Long, drawn out, lots of healing, lots of misses, and just generally a roflstomping good time. And when the aldgoats get bland I'll find something else. And if I can find a decent group of folks and the multi-player facet of combat becomes a more standard thing, awesome. But I don't need it to enjoy the game. And if something changes later on and I need people around me all the time to handle the basic fighting end of things, I'm pretty sure a well rounded crafter and a well geared gladiator will have a reasonably easy time finding a group that's willing to take them in.

Compare that to the smacktard who gets sick of their current LS so they leave and join a new one and the first words they type wind up being, "can anyone make a lancer wep?!?"

Ya, I've got what people want. I'm like the smokin' hot chick in highschool that all the guys know sleeps around. You can call me a ***** and a **** and all that other stuff, but at the end of the day, you know you want me.
#16 Oct 07 2010 at 11:13 AM Rating: Decent
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Great read. I'm also crafting, though not as high as you. I've got pretty much everything rank 10-15 (minus cooking also). I haven't really even tried to make much yet just because it takes so much time and I'm on a limited play schedule.

I don't quite understand why the shard market is so insanely expensive. I've had no problems finding all the necessary shards/crystals just by simply going to all 3 starter areas for leves/grinding. Each area drops different shards, as does each mob. Crystals are a bit rare, but I still have 10+ of each right now. I think I'll just build up to a large sum of them, then go on a crafting tear.

Oh yeah, I know we've had past issues, but if you are on Kashuan you're welcome to come join my ls.
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#17 Oct 07 2010 at 12:19 PM Rating: Decent
Beautiful!! Well written and well played. I enjoyed reading this thread.

You did not by chance play on Kujata in FFXI, did you?

If so, perhaps you remember Mathieu and Loransa.
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#18 Oct 07 2010 at 12:23 PM Rating: Decent
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The One and Only Aurelius wrote:
[quote=Sethern79] I'm like the smokin' hot chick in highschool that all the guys know sleeps around. You can call me a ***** and a **** and all that other stuff, but at the end of the day, you know you want me.


(*slow clap*)
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#19 Oct 07 2010 at 12:24 PM Rating: Decent
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You just need a good linkshell, everyone in Transcendence is amazingly helpful. I've gotten 2 crafter upgrade gear for free, and another at cost. Everyone helps everyone out. That's probably why we're already at max and closed applications, :(
#20 Oct 07 2010 at 12:56 PM Rating: Decent
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Dang that stinks that some people are like that in game. A good eye-opener story even though I kinda knew later on crafting wasn't going to be as easy as in the beginning, but I definitely appreciate dedicated crafters more.
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#21 Oct 07 2010 at 12:59 PM Rating: Good
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I've run into a lot of higher level crafters that are on total power trips.

It's really annoying trying to gather mats.
#22 Oct 07 2010 at 1:22 PM Rating: Excellent
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Here's the thing, though. I don't need you. At all. Not even a little. Maybe as the game progresses beyond what most people are doing in the monster hunting end of things but right now, I have no need of people with whacker sticks buying my goods. My primary focus was actually getting myself squared away for my own gear


+1000000000 this. I've been craft ranking horizontally too and it's starting to get to the point where I can make some things completely on my own, and for the area that I currently lack ranks in I have an LS mate that I trade mats/labor with to cover. I'm currently working on getting all my tools upgraded to the rank 12 versions, just a few more to go ***** the undyed canvas Smiley: mad) Besides trading for a few mats I can't produce yet I've done all the work myself. Thinking about it I traded some tools I made for my current crafting gear too Smiley: tongue I'm going to continue ranking crafts like this because I refuse to be the "I'm capable of crafting the Uber Helmet of Firey Doom! but I can't because I can't find any sheep leather." guy.

Quote:
because I knew straight up after following this game for over a year that SE was setting it up to be a fully player driven economy right from the start.


I saw this too. I'm amazed that people that have been following the game are surprised/***** about how the system works didn't see it coming.

Quote:
I've run into a lot of higher level crafters that are on total power trips.


This is also true. Some of them want you to recognize that their epeen is HUGE.

Quote:
It's really annoying trying to gather mats


For final synths it can be sometimes. For ranking synths not too bad.

Edited, Oct 7th 2010 12:24pm by SkinwalkerAsura
#23 Oct 07 2010 at 1:46 PM Rating: Good
**** ruthless crafters, I like it!
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#24 Oct 07 2010 at 3:07 PM Rating: Good
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A few days later (last night, in fact), buyer's remorse kicked in. He decided to do his homework after he spent all the gil and found out that no, those items didn't cost anywhere near what he paid for them to make. And so it was that he went on a ranting tirade, decreeing that henceforth, all LS crafters would provide their services at mat cost and be grateful to have someone pay for the materials they use to skill up on. I believe his words were along the lines of, "be thankful for the free xp." This bothered me. I don't like other people dictating to me what I should be charging. My mats, my shards, my time, my choice.


This is actually the funniest part. Be thankful for the free xp?! I gets my xp regardless, try getting whatever shiny bit you want for just the cost of mats without me to craft it for you. Geez, at least understand how the system works before making an *** of yourself.
#25 Oct 07 2010 at 7:38 PM Rating: Excellent
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Ok so I had never really put thought before into how much an item is until I read this, so I went and looked into the Hempen Cowl that I was so proud to have made for myself this morning. Turns out in basic raw materials I used:

- 6 moko grass
- 72 earth shards
- 6 wind shards
- 24 lightning shards

It kind of boggles my mind that I took 6 clumps of grass, blew like 15k in shards on them, and it's an item that's only Weaver Rank 2. I mean, I'm not complaining, I'm just kind of in awe of how much cash in shards went into such a simple thing that I can't even wear yet! Smiley: lol
#26 Oct 07 2010 at 8:32 PM Rating: Good
Thanks to those who offered me a spot in their linkshell. I'm actually on Istory, so that rules all those out but I appreciate the offers.

Pikko wrote:
Ok so I had never really put thought before into how much an item is until I read this, so I went and looked into the Hempen Cowl that I was so proud to have made for myself this morning. Turns out in basic raw materials I used:

- 6 moko grass
- 72 earth shards
- 6 wind shards
- 24 lightning shards

It kind of boggles my mind that I took 6 clumps of grass, blew like 15k in shards on them, and it's an item that's only Weaver Rank 2. I mean, I'm not complaining, I'm just kind of in awe of how much cash in shards went into such a simple thing that I can't even wear yet! Smiley: lol


I did a rank 20 armorer levequest today that required me to make 6 sheets of iron chain. Consequently I got a sneak peek at the material requirements for it because I had never looked into it before. The standard 6 iron rings (same as the bronze chain sheets, only iron) and 20 earth shards per sheet. My jaw about bounced off the floor. I'm looking at the few things you can make with iron sheets now and they seem to require two sheets. So you're looking at fire crystals to make the ingots (2 ingots, two fire crystals each). Then another 16 fire shards and 8 wind shards to convert those ingots into 12 wire. Then 8 wind shards and 12 earth shards to convert each wire into 3 rings. 6 rings to the sheet @ the 20 earth shards.

So for 2 sheets of iron chain, you're looking at 88 earth shards and 32 wind shards, and that just gives you the sheets. Then you have to combine it with other goodies to arrive at a finished product. It would appear that SE has done some clever planning in this whole shenanigan. The real commodity is not and may never be the materials so much as it will be the shards and crystals.
#27 Oct 07 2010 at 8:57 PM Rating: Good
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The One and Only Aurelius wrote:
The real commodity is not and may never be the materials so much as it will be the shards and crystals.


Bingo! Only way to get lots of crystals is to defeat monsters...and only way to do that efficiently is to have well equipped classes...so this economy system is a self-balancing system designed so that theoretically DOW/DOM classes cannot outstrip DOL/DOH classes in rank and progression.

Again, I like the concept of people helping each other without a need to transact with gil, but for those times when you have to transact with random third parties, that's where gil is the common point of value. If you deal exclusively with friends, you will never need gil.
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#28 Oct 07 2010 at 8:59 PM Rating: Excellent
Actually, you get plenty of shards gathering...
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#29 Oct 07 2010 at 10:48 PM Rating: Excellent
Yabusame wrote:
Actually, you get plenty of shards gathering...


You do get shards gathering, yes. And the nice thing is that you can allocate your elemental affinity points to target specific types of shards. Even still, I think most crafters will find the volume of shards they obtain from gathering to be inadequate.
#30 Oct 07 2010 at 10:55 PM Rating: Good
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the complexity of the crafting system is really what gets me coming back to it, largely because i really feel like i built something with my own two hands ya know?

about the only thing i wish was different was the need for "secondary" crafts. for instance, leatherworking is a necessary secondary craft for higher ranks of armorer, especially for stuff involving footwear. because of the need for ingots and nuggets, an armorer is also well served by being a blacksmith since smelting anything early on is nearly impossible as an armorer (rank 1 smith has a much easier time of smelting copper or bronze than a rank 1 armorer does). finally, in order for a blacksmith to make the iron hammer, a certain level of weaving is needed.

so if you want to make higher level armorer stuff, you need higher quality ingredients (i.e. iron). if you want to smelt iron well, youll need a new smith hammer, which means youll need weaving up to about 11. if you want to be an armorer able to make all pieces available to you, youll also need leatherworking.

not a terrible idea per se, just rather time consuming. what i would have much preferred would be a kind of "crafter party" wherein two people with different crafts could work together to complete an item. this wouldnt be a necessary thing (so being unable to find a leatherworker wouldnt stop an armorer from making their own shoes as long as said armorer had the necessary LWing skill) but it seems like a nicer alternative to requiring 2-3 support crafts in order to successfully level a single craft.

in short, you could either opt to level the support crafts yourself, but they wouldnt be necessary if you could find a person with that craft to help you synth.
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#31 Oct 07 2010 at 11:03 PM Rating: Decent
Quor wrote:
the complexity of the crafting system is really what gets me coming back to it, largely because i really feel like i built something with my own two hands ya know?

about the only thing i wish was different was the need for "secondary" crafts. for instance, leatherworking is a necessary secondary craft for higher ranks of armorer, especially for stuff involving footwear. because of the need for ingots and nuggets, an armorer is also well served by being a blacksmith since smelting anything early on is nearly impossible as an armorer (rank 1 smith has a much easier time of smelting copper or bronze than a rank 1 armorer does). finally, in order for a blacksmith to make the iron hammer, a certain level of weaving is needed.

so if you want to make higher level armorer stuff, you need higher quality ingredients (i.e. iron). if you want to smelt iron well, youll need a new smith hammer, which means youll need weaving up to about 11. if you want to be an armorer able to make all pieces available to you, youll also need leatherworking.

not a terrible idea per se, just rather time consuming. what i would have much preferred would be a kind of "crafter party" wherein two people with different crafts could work together to complete an item. this wouldnt be a necessary thing (so being unable to find a leatherworker wouldnt stop an armorer from making their own shoes as long as said armorer had the necessary LWing skill) but it seems like a nicer alternative to requiring 2-3 support crafts in order to successfully level a single craft.

in short, you could either opt to level the support crafts yourself, but they wouldnt be necessary if you could find a person with that craft to help you synth.


From the looks of some items, having support crafts will still be necessary. You've probably seen some of them, most likely in a levequest where you start it and get a message saying that your rank with a particular secondary DoH class isn't high enough.

I agree with the armorer/blacksmith bit. I just found out tonight that my blacksmith is high enough to start making iron nuggets which is fantastic, because in another 2-3 ranks tops, my armorer is going to be needing them in vast quantities. Expensive little buggers to make, but it gives me an opportunity to clear out the several stacks of limonite I had taking up space on my retainer. I did a quick browse through my DoH classes before I logged out tonight to get a handle on what I might focus on this weekend. I've got several that are close to being ready to rank up, and then it's back to armorer and weaver. I swear as soon as I can make undyed canvas, it'll be a long time before i even think about weaver. Well, long time being "until I find the next tier of armorer stuff that needs me to use linen."

Bastids.
#32 Oct 07 2010 at 11:50 PM Rating: Decent
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Very good read.

And its really really true that the biggest stumbling block for my crafting right now has been shards and Crystals. I gather everything I need but can't get the fire crystals without buying them myself.

ALL my money goes to those fire crystals. I'd be set if I could find a supplier but for now I have to take them as they come...and the price just keeps going up since people learned us crafters 'really need them'.

#33 Oct 08 2010 at 12:19 AM Rating: Decent
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Your my hero ! :)
I'm really impressed by your crafting level already though, I think I play a lot, and craft a major part of the time but I'm only gold18 smith14 armore9
I do have a 18pug and a 21 miner so that may explain the difference.

In any case, I agree with your approach. I really like the crafting system and the fact SE somewhat delivered on the fact the crafting jobs are real jobs, compared to other game.
Armorer seems a blast, so many part you can craft to reach the final product, I love that, so long as it doesn't tkae 1 gazillion different mats, which it seems not, most of them can be summed as nuggets :)
Being proficient in various craft is also a huge boon to melee job since being able to repair your gear is gonna add a lot of convenience to the DoW/DoM down the road :)

I just hope SE makes it so that not everybody and their dog will be able to have all DoH at high level (otherwise there is no economy). Ie, I hope it really requieres dedication to reach a high level in 1 DoH (and therefore having several will be even harder)

In any case, your statement about the bottleneck being cristal and shard is spot on. Honestly if I had more fire cristal and wind shard (even though I gather maybe 300 windshard a day) I would level a lot faster. Limonte and Silver ore are gonna kill me with their 2 cristals req.

Keep up the good work!
#34 Oct 08 2010 at 12:23 AM Rating: Good
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The One and Only Aurelius wrote:
... I don't think I'm better than [players that level DoW classes] per se, but I am playing a smarter game than them... instead of thinking, "Hmmm...there's all this new gear I could get, maybe I should take time out now and work towards being able to make it" they're thinking, "I have <x> amount of gil and I need gear NOW." Dumb. Very dumb. They're paying many times what they could be paying for gear and in a month's time, it's all going to be worth a fraction of what they paid.
I agree with your general strategy, approach and implementation. This is an opportunity that only being in 'on the ground floor' of an MMO can provide for economists.

I will also say that this is the least fun I've had in an MMO in a long time.

I WANT to rank up my favorite class - which isn't by any means a crafting class. I WANT to fight cool monsters and get new abilities with badass-looking-anime-acrobatic animations and awesome particle effect explosions. I want to explore and see whatever is out there in the game world - even if its just inactive buildings, empty castles or NPCs who don't have anything to say.

MOST of all i want to become familiar with the combat system, its nuances and its mechanics so that i can begin to understand and hopefully contribute to the body of XIV theorycraft, which as anyone knows, doesn't even become relevant until max level.

I can't do ANY of that though, because I need gear to be effective - and besides making it myself my only resort is to take it in the **** from 'smart' crafters who have opted to play the economy instead of the actual game. So instead of doing what i enjoy, I craft, or harvest, or mine. For hours.

I feel like I'm being punished for wanting to play.

Kudos to you for your persistence and economic foresight, but frankly I despise it and its not enjoyable in the slightest. There is already more than enough boring, mundane, uninspired monotony without XIV.

Edited, Oct 8th 2010 6:33am by Timorith
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#35 Oct 08 2010 at 1:26 AM Rating: Good
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So sorry that you can't get to the endgame in the second week after the game went live, Timorith!

You're playing an MMO made by SquareEnix. Your character is not going to reach the endgame independently. If you've hit the point where you need support to advance, why not spend some time supporting your support? Bring materials and crystals to your crafter friends, and you might find that the gear tap turns more smoothly for you in the future.
#36 Oct 08 2010 at 1:33 AM Rating: Good
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The One and Only Aurelius wrote:
Sethern79 wrote:
But the fact is you Crafters need us monster hunters just as much as we need you. If it was not for us grinding away at or job you would have no one to sell to. and for that mater you would have to grind your own class to go out there and farm a lot more shards than you do now. And if it was not for you crafters I would be geting my but handed to me in my cottain undies. And all them shards Iv been selling sure would be geting a lil crazy in my invitory atm.


Here's the thing, though. I don't need you. At all. Not even a little. Maybe as the game progresses beyond what most people are doing in the monster hunting end of things but right now, I have no need of people with whacker sticks buying my goods. My primary focus was actually getting myself squared away for my own gear because I knew straight up after following this game for over a year that SE was setting it up to be a fully player driven economy right from the start.

You comment that sometimes you get the impression that crafters think they're better than monster hunters. I don't think I'm better than them per se, but I am playing a smarter game than them. The game's not even three weeks old. There's going to be @#%^ all to do at the rank cap for people all in a rush now. And instead of thinking, "Hmmm...there's all this new gear I could get, maybe I should take time out now and work towards being able to make it" they're thinking, "I have <x> amount of gil and I need gear NOW." Dumb. Very dumb. They're paying many times what they could be paying for gear and in a month's time, it's all going to be worth a fraction of what they paid. I'm struggling to stay with the curve...already I'm seeing people cranking out iron chain at the armorer's guild in LL. And when they start filling their bazaars with iron chain this and iron plate that and all those other goodies, people are going to be looking at their 200k gil haubergeon (now worth 30k) and think, "wtf did I do that for?"

When I'm out bombing around farming shards (having an absolute blast with shield + thaumaturge, btw...zomfg) I'm always scoping for the next mob I can handle on the way up. Turns out in this case it'll most likely be aldgoats starting at rank 14 or 15. I love those kinds of fights. Long, drawn out, lots of healing, lots of misses, and just generally a roflstomping good time. And when the aldgoats get bland I'll find something else. And if I can find a decent group of folks and the multi-player facet of combat becomes a more standard thing, awesome. But I don't need it to enjoy the game. And if something changes later on and I need people around me all the time to handle the basic fighting end of things, I'm pretty sure a well rounded crafter and a well geared gladiator will have a reasonably easy time finding a group that's willing to take them in.

Compare that to the smacktard who gets sick of their current LS so they leave and join a new one and the first words they type wind up being, "can anyone make a lancer wep?!?"

Ya, I've got what people want. I'm like the smokin' hot chick in highschool that all the guys know sleeps around. You can call me a ***** and a **** and all that other stuff, but at the end of the day, you know you want me.


LOL you realy think that in group play you can compeat With someone like myself who atm is a lvl 23 glad/23 conj/21 pug/19 mur/22 and hase veary good rep as a great tank? plz. Wile your out there geting your rep as a crafter Im geting my rep as a Great tank who can keep the group going no mater what hapons. You mention Algoats but can you spout off the main complexitys that a good tank should know? Im willing to bet not.

Wile your proving your self in sweat im proving my self in blood. People know me and they know I can get the job done. You on the other hand they only know for making a nice set of bronze this or that. You had a plan for the game you say? Well so did I. I am siting on 6.5 mill and the best set's of gear you crafter's can make. Iv got a group of people that will not go out to party unless Im the tank. And for that matter I have you crafter's buying my mats like they are crack no matter how much I charge for them.

who the **** do you think buys the items you make? other crafters? Ha plz. Its me. the guy your calling dumb. The bloody meat shield who is out there day in and day out learning everything there is to know about the monsters and how they fight in this game while you sit back with you crafts and act all hooty tooty. When it comes to the end game who do you think people will be calling on to keep them alive? a battel proven tank like myself and many others or a snoty crafter like yourself who thinks your better than everyone else.

You talk about a smarter game? I know quite a few crafters who are dumb founded by the amount of gill I make. They never cont in the fact that the mats and crystals/shards they are buying comes from people like me. You think the price of wind shards is going to drop any time soon? I bet not and I know quite a few good places to fame them at 6 shards a kill. You think lighting shards will drop? again nope.

but that said I don't feel myself any better than you. Why becuse with out you I have no gear. But I will say this. Your not playing a smarter game. just a diffrent game.

Edited, Oct 8th 2010 3:36am by Sethern79
#37 Oct 08 2010 at 1:47 AM Rating: Good
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Heh... It's not just about the AH anymore. Things are rapidly turning into a conflict between crafting vs. martial classes.
#38 Oct 08 2010 at 1:55 AM Rating: Good
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AvatarexADV wrote:
If you've hit the point where you need support to advance, why not... Bring materials and crystals to your crafter friends, and you might find that the gear tap turns more smoothly for you in the future.
You strike me as a dev.

Please don't misunderstand. I am simply speaking honestly. I've been a Squaresoft fan since Chrono Trigger and CONTINUE to be.

I was actually one of the first in my LS to suggest that we operate as a separate economic entity based on codependant relationships and craft synergy: "Ill work on X craft and you work on Y craft and Joe will work on Z craft and we swap mats or other items as needed." The suggestion was widely accepted - then we began to run into some limitations:

- For an LS to function effectively as an economic unit, the players must have SOME means of conveniently trading items such as an LS bank or shared storage. That doesn't exist.

- If i were able to mail my buddy all my feathers + shards with a note 'please make these into fletchings for me' then he could craft at his own speed and at his own convenience. Unfortunately there is no mail or delivery system so we have to meet 'physically', trade the mats 4 stacks at a time, do ALL our crafting on the spot or meet at guilds where we could get the appropriate support, then trade the mats back to each other.

- The necessity of physical proximity for any type of transaction made it necessary to travel between the 3 major cities in the game so often that even sharing teleports, most of us have nearly run out of Anima already. This wouldn't be an issue if there were some sort of 'public transportation' system which ANY player would gladly pay gil for. Unfortunately, no such system has been implemented yet.

- Even when we were able to create some kind of crafting synergy, we often had to resort to vendoring (vending?) our items because there was no efficient way to get items to the people who needed them. This point has been beaten to death already.

- Because of the obstacles listed above, many players in the LS decided to give up on crafting or quit the game entirely out of frustration.

Again, I'm speaking honestly from my experiences. Take it as you will.

Sethern79 wrote:
LOL you realy think that in group play you can compete With someone like myself who atm is a lvl 23 glad/23 conj/21 pug/19 mur/22 and has very good rep as a great tank? plz. Wile your out there getting your rep as a crafter Im getting my rep as a Great tank who can keep the group going no mater what happens. You mention Algoats but can you spout off the main complexities that a good tank should know? Im willing to bet not... Wile your proving your self in sweat im proving my self in blood.
Inspiring.

You've convinced me to drop crafting altogether, get my *** out there in the field and BATTLE, with different classes, different mechanics and against different monsters because that's what I enjoy and that's where i feel my strengths lie. The gil and gear can come as it will and when it does I'll buy what i need.

Thanks for the shift in perspective. Much appreciated.


Edited, Oct 8th 2010 8:07am by Timorith
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#39 Oct 08 2010 at 2:12 AM Rating: Good
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Timorith wrote:
- For an LS to function effectively as an economic unit, the players must have SOME means of conveniently trading items such as an LS bank or shared storage. That doesn't exist.

- If i were able to mail my buddy all my feathers + shards with a note 'please make these into fletchings for me' then he could craft at his own speed and at his own convenience. Unfortunately there is no mail or delivery system so we have to meet 'physically', trade the mats 4 stacks at a time, do ALL our crafting on the spot or meet at guilds where we could get the appropriate support, then trade the mats back to each other.

- The necessity of physical proximity for any type of transaction made it necessary to travel between the 3 major cities in the game so often that even sharing teleports, most of us have nearly run out of Anima already. This wouldn't be an issue if there were some sort of 'public transportation' system which ANY player would gladly pay gil for. Unfortunately, no such system has been implemented yet.

- Even when we were able to create some kind of crafting synergy, we often had to resort to vendoring (vending?) our items because there was no efficient way to get items to the people who needed them. This point has been beaten to death already.

- Because of the obstacles listed above, many players in the LS decided to give up on crafting or quit the game entirely out of frustration.

Again, I'm speaking honestly from my experiences. Take it as you will.


I actually agree with all of this. From what I've read so far here on ZAM, I'm one of the few people here who doesn't want an AH. I'd like to see where they can take this without an AH, so I'm being patient. But I can agree that a mail/delivery system is sorely needed.

Also, regarding the problem with having to vendor to NPCs. It might be interesting if players can rent chocobo pulled wagons, which they can then load up with items they purchase. Maybe not as much as the full price of the item, but stuff they can get cheap from people looking to get rid of it, but still offer more than an NPC vendor. Then run to another city and markup the prices somewhat. It would be kind of like portable player run auction houses, but still not as centralized. Things might get kind of crowded, so maybe limit how often you can rent a wagon and the number of wagons that can be out at a time?
#40 Oct 08 2010 at 2:57 AM Rating: Decent
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Timorith wrote:
You strike me as a dev.

Please don't misunderstand. I am simply speaking honestly. I've been a Squaresoft fan since Chrono Trigger and CONTINUE to be.


Oh ho ho! No, just a player who enjoyed FF11 way back in the day, went cold turkey from WOW a year ago, and happens to like crafting. Though I'll apologize for the snark, since you've been kind enough to comment politely.

Your points are well-taken. There really aren't a lot of tools in place that would facilitate the kind of collective crafting effort you've got in mind. (Though honestly, at the end of the day, we're still going to be vendoring **** feathers and flint stones for a while, no matter what.) There are things that they could have done to facilitate things, and they didn't do them (yet?) Honestly, I think that a big part of it is the retainer system; someone pitched the idea and the executives got on board with retainers (or extra characters) as a profit source, and so they'll ride that if they can. I wouldn't expect to see an auction house for months. A search for the market wards, now, that's a different story (and it might be even better - the FF11 AH looks pretty good compared to the nothing we've got now, but it had its limitations too).

At the same time, keep in mind what Aurelius was talking about at the beginning of the thread. Being a crafter is a lot less casual, or a side activity, compared with how it is in other MMOs. Not only is there a materials expense, not only is there the opportunity cost represented by all the time spent leveling up to that rank, but there's a direct time expense involved. If you say to a crafter "hey plz craft me a haubergeon I gotz ore and crystalz", it is the same thing as him saying to you, "Please powerlevel my character for half an hour, will you, my good man?" It's a time-consuming activity, and he has to bring his A-game to do it - because if he spends that half an hour assembling chain sleeves and tabards and etc, and then blows the last synth, it's gonna be pretty terrible. Heck, even the chance of one incidental failure is pretty high over a dozen synths, and the commissioning party probably isn't going to have extra materials on hand to cover it.

It's a much bigger favor than it is in other games, where the crafting isn't as complicated. But the fact that it's a bigger favor is a lot more obvious to the crafter than to someone who tried crafting a little and didn't like it... and so you're going to have problems along those lines.

Fortunately, from a personal perspective, I'm a patient guy, and I'm having fun leveling a wide variety of classes somewhat rather than pushing straight for the top ranks (incidentally meaning I can take it easy on my gear, because pretty much all my classes are in the same wide band, and the lower levels aren't terribly demanding in that respect). But I'm also enjoying crafting -as a game-. Sure, it's not deep, and it's frustrating when you're starting out, can't make much, and don't know what's going on. But once you've got some crafts up a little, you'll have more ability to affect the outcome of a craft beyond "******** it up". And the stakes make it fun - there was as much tension in almost-but-not-quite failing my first birdbeak hammer crafting attempt as there was in my first almost-but-not-quite dying to a dodo, except now I have a nifty tool. ;p
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