Forum Settings
       
This Forum is Read Only

Not another AH threadFollow

#1 Oct 08 2010 at 2:49 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
***
1,431 posts
Real quick, we know FFXIV does not have an AH because SE is worried about RMT using it.
That said, without an AH, can anyone describe an effective way for players to exchanges goods for Gil at an Massive Multiplayer Online level?
I'm drawing blanks.


(Post Count!)

Edited, Oct 8th 2010 5:46pm by sideways
#2 Oct 08 2010 at 2:52 PM Rating: Good
Sage
**
575 posts
sideways wrote:
Real quick, we know FFXIV does not have an AH because SE is worried about RMT using it.


We do?
#3 Oct 08 2010 at 3:06 PM Rating: Good
Scholar
***
1,431 posts
Vawn43 wrote:
sideways wrote:
Real quick, we know FFXIV does not have an AH because SE is worried about RMT using it.


We do?


I'm sorry, but that was an assumption. Why else would they not included the only known way for players to exchange goods for gil at an MMO level?

PS: if you never played any other MMO then FFXI, FFXI has the strictest RMT countermeasures compared to any other MMO by 1,000,000% lol, and that's no understatement (e.g. banning account that did not RMT, but it looked like they may have)
#4 Oct 08 2010 at 3:18 PM Rating: Excellent
Guru
*
106 posts
1) This thread IS another AH thread so this title is false and misleading

2) Lack of an AH isn't going to deter RMTs at all. If they are allowed to exist within the game, they will find a way to sell their merchandise. PERIOD

3) Blizzard has managed to make in-game RMT actions pretty much a non-factor, so it is perfectly possible to keep them under control without sacrificing game features. Sure there's rampant account theft, but that's ultimately the fault of the end user, and Blizzard is at least really understanding and cooperative when helping their subscribers recover from such account thefts.
#5 Oct 08 2010 at 3:25 PM Rating: Good
*
158 posts
If their actions against RMT are designed to keep RMT accounts from accumulating currency effectively, or whatever.. it's just ridiculous.

Address the issue of why a person is motivated to RMT and you'll fix the problem, and you'll spend less $$$ in development costs fighting the 'evil' rmt, and that money could be used elsewhere.

Gil isn't hard to acquire in FFXIV, so the rest of their actions are overkill. I wonder if they considered entering "CAPTCHA" equivalents on every action/transaction when they were developing the game...I wouldn't put it past them.

If it is the case that they with-held an Auction House in FFXIV as an RMT counter measure, they're over-reacting to a problem that they helped to create in their first MMO.




Edited, Oct 8th 2010 5:26pm by ghosthacked
#6 Oct 08 2010 at 3:35 PM Rating: Good
Sage
**
327 posts
I agree,

I think RMT is going to be in the game nomatter what. I think the main thing that made RMT so abusive in FF11, however, was the fact that we had a blind AH system. You didn't know what the item cost was, and you didn't know who you would be buying from. I think it's a pretty safe guess, or at least it's an informed guess, that a lack of AH was due to trying to counter RMT.

Now I can't promise it'd completely remove RMT, but if we could see who we'd be purchase a certain item from, then maybe we would avoid purchasing from known RMT? I'm sure that's a perfect world type situation, but I don't think it could hurt. Even if retainers end up being searchable, there's no way to really be sure that you're not buying from RMT, unless they show the retainer's player's name on them somehow.

I'll just be happy to at least go to a ward next week and feel confident at least 75% of the junk sold in the retainers should be related to the actual item I want. I really hope that system works out, because I hate buying junk now.

____________________________
Ridere Tirose
All the Lalafell...
None of the bad aftertaste...
FFXIV Server: Trabia


#7 Oct 08 2010 at 3:35 PM Rating: Good
Sage
**
575 posts
sideways wrote:
Vawn43 wrote:
sideways wrote:
Real quick, we know FFXIV does not have an AH because SE is worried about RMT using it.


We do?


I'm sorry, but that was an assumption. Why else would they not included the only known way for players to exchange goods for gil at an MMO level?


There is a bright side of no Auction House. I am not saying it is enough to warrant the hassles. This game crafting and gathering is as important as the main classes. If those classes end up just being side hobbies, the game's concept fails.

In XI, how profitable is crafting? In honesty, it is very difficult to make a profit crafting. The competition is so fierce. The cheapest person selling will sell first 100% of the time. That's a lot of competition, it is a buyer's market. In fact in XI, most of the NQ items will sell well under the cost to make them. If you want to make gil in XI, you are better off just farming mobs or doing BCNMs. HELM or gathering is even worse. If anything is worth gathering in XI, a lot of people do it. They are all competing against each other. Supply once again kicks demand's *** and prices plummet. Very few people in XI HELM for siginificant gil. The time/pay out is just not worth it.

In this game the problem is on the other end of the spectrum. People can sell items way higher than the cost of the materials. It is hard for the buyer to always know if they are getting the best price. Sometimes they are paying more for the "convinence". In other words, they will pay a little more than what they think an item is worth, because its there and for sale. No more shopping. No risking the item will be sold while its gone. This works great for sellers, but is a frustrating and time consuming process. Gathers have these same benefits as the crafters have to go through the same process to find the materials. Maybe I'll pay a little more for that Flax, instead of spending 45 minutes looking for what I want.

I don't know what the solution is to get the both of best worlds. We'll see if the seperation of the wards into distinct markets will be enough.
#8 Oct 08 2010 at 3:39 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
***
1,431 posts
Izuul wrote:
1) This thread IS another AH thread so this title is false and misleading

sorry about that, you must of missed my tone in message. how about "not ANOTHER AH thread... /sigh)

Izuul wrote:
2) Lack of an AH isn't going to deter RMTs at all. If they are allowed to exist within the game, they will find a way to sell their merchandise. PERIOD

well said, but even more, they are egging RMT buyers with the damaged gear vs. lost exp. In FFXIV, every time you die you lose more durability which ultimately ends up costing you more gil. In other MMO's with the same system, this leads to players who find it acceptable to only RMT for funds to fix gear...

Izuul wrote:
3) Blizzard has managed to make in-game RMT actions pretty much a non-factor, so it is perfectly possible to keep them under control without sacrificing game features. Sure there's rampant account theft, but that's ultimately the fault of the end user, and Blizzard is at least really understanding and cooperative when helping their subscribers recover from such account thefts.


EXACTLY! but SE has never, never, never, never accepted this in FFXI, even when the player base was dropping drastically due to "extreme" RMT countermeasures (special task force)

RMT will balance itself out if its regulated properly. the price of the hempen cowl will go up, but so will the price of the earth crystals in your bazzar.

in their defense, if RMT is left alone it can get really bad. I play AION for the first 6 months and there was no RMT control. you couldn't buy anything "good" from the AH because the price of the items was so high to craft good gear, no one was willing to pay the even higher price for the crafted gear and everyone just lvled up the craft and built it themselfs (but it was easy).

removing the AH, or (again, i know) the only known way for players to exchange goods for gil at an MMO level, is NOT the answer SE...

Can anyone think of an AH replacement? Wild ideas, guesses, anything! if we cant think of one i'm sure SE cant ;)
#9 Oct 08 2010 at 4:11 PM Rating: Excellent
Guru
*
106 posts
Ridere wrote:
I agree,

I think the main thing that made RMT so abusive in FF11, however, was the fact that we had a blind AH system. You didn't know what the item cost was, and you didn't know who you would be buying from. I think it's a pretty safe guess, or at least it's an informed guess, that a lack of AH was due to trying to counter RMT.


This is how i feel. If you have a different style of AH where you get a list of every item, who the seller is, and what the asking price is, you can always choose not to buy from somebody (such as a known RMT). Sure, there will always be people that buy the item that is 1g cheaper despite the seller, but at least you have a choice with that system.

Edited, Oct 8th 2010 6:11pm by Izuul
#10 Oct 08 2010 at 4:56 PM Rating: Decent
3 posts
Help me out here.....I am curious (no sarcasm intended).
How is the retainer system actually going to stop RMTs?
I mean - how is a person going to know if they would be buying from an RMT either as a retainer or on an AH?
You can dismiss, hire a new retainer and rename it fairly easily.
I haven't noticed a way to see the actual owner of the retainer (unless you look at some of the 3rd party sites people have been trying to get going).
Even if you could - how would you be certain this person is an RMT? Linkshell arguments, disagreements between players, etc can add to anyone being called an RMT to cause them trouble.
It would seem that SE itself would have to monitor activities to determine if someone was an RMT - which I assume they could do with an auction house, a retainer system, barter system, etc.

I agree with Ghosthacked: "Address the issue of why a person is motivated to RMT and you'll fix the problem, and you'll spend less $$$ in development costs fighting the 'evil' rmt, and that money could be used elsewhere. "

If they want to try a retainer system in place of an AH - fine - do so and do it well.
If it doesn't work I hope they are prepared to put a different system in place.

#11 Oct 08 2010 at 5:04 PM Rating: Default
*
189 posts
Blizzard has a button click and report. I put a rmt gm call 8 days ago for a retainer name gilforsalewwwwebite and havent heard anything. I guess they have more important things to do like a sort inv function.
____________________________
FFXI Alexandar 51 SUM
Ramuh 50 SUM 53 THF
WoW Malygos 80MAG 60 WLK
The forgtn cst 80 MAG 73 WLK

http://lodestone.finalfantasyxiv.com/rc/character/status?cicuid=2494669
Retainer: Weaponsandshields
#12 Oct 08 2010 at 8:47 PM Rating: Good
Avatar
***
1,416 posts
The lack oh an AH wasn't meant to stop RMT. Going by what Tanaka said, it is meant to let the players get the economy started, rather than letting RMT start it for us.

When Aion went live in NA, RMT gripped the AH from the get go. They set the prices for everything, and was pretty ridiculous at first.
I want an AH as much as the next guy, but i like the fact that they are giving us a fighting chance to set what things are worth. It won't stop RMT. Nothing will. It will, however, let us get a jump on the economy withought RMT setting all the standards.

It is backfiring a bit though, since many people are charging RMT prices anyway.

Edited, Oct 8th 2010 10:47pm by Teneleven
____________________________

#13 Oct 08 2010 at 10:36 PM Rating: Decent
**
401 posts
No AH means you need to "buy" more retainers. In the add options you have to buy more retainers meaning you need to pay more per-month. Welcome to a reason why no AH is added.



edit: drinking and posting

Edited, Oct 8th 2010 10:37pm by TheRealLusent
____________________________




#14 Oct 09 2010 at 10:45 PM Rating: Good
*
112 posts
sideways wrote:
Real quick, we know FFXIV does not have an AH because SE is worried about RMT using it.
That said, without an AH, can anyone describe an effective way for players to exchanges goods for Gil at an Massive Multiplayer Online level?
I'm drawing blanks.



Yes, EverQuest already found a way, years ago.
The EQ Bazaar was basically special zone (like a market ward) where you could take your character (or in this case, retainer), park it under an awning (off the main walkway), and sell your stuff, just like you can in the market wards. The big, MAJOR difference, is one thing. EQ had a search function. You could pull down a tool, search for what you need, and when you found it for the price you wanted to, you'd click a button, and it would face you towards the seller. So with a simple matter of triangulation, you could find the seller and buy from him/her.



Aside from that, how is having or not having an AH going to help/hurt RMT at all?
As a company, RMT can easily build a crafting structure. They have division G get materials for division C to make everything with. Division C and G trade materials around to get materials divided more efficiently than your average players and guilds, meaning that RMT (or equivalent company) have a much greater chance of profiting from crafting than your average players, simply because they can acquire the materials they want to, while they players have a much harder time.

In short, no AH hurts the players more than RMT, meaning that the 'cure' is worse than the disease.



If SE cared about it, there's a few real simple way to (help) eliminate RMTs economical influence.

1) SE buys gil from RMT to see what account is distributing it. They then give a final warning (prior to perma-ban) to all accounts that have given and received funds in the amounts they sell it (I.E. 10k, 25k, 50k, and so on), and ban the account that sold to them. They could even return the funds first to the seller, then require a refund because "SE took the money away from them!"
2) SE looks at logs for money transfers that are flagged with certain parameters, such as greater than x in y time frame, from a different guild, never spoken before, and so on. Ban the distributor, and give a final warning to the purchaser.
____________________________
You know you've been playing too many MMOs when:

You pass a cop and wonder if it 'Agroed' you.
Another car passes you, you attempt to /follow it.
You use your "push to talk" key while talking on the phone.
Text-based games You put a /s before every message you type in an IM (or equivalent / command)
(I have done all)
This forum is read only
This Forum is Read Only!
Recent Visitors: 21 All times are in CST
Anonymous Guests (21)