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SqEx badly needs to get a clue about craftingFollow

#1 Oct 09 2010 at 8:47 PM Rating: Default
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As I started to go up in rank in the different jobs, I wanted to make some new weapons for myself. Why did I not try and buy them? Well first NPCs do not sell many weapons aside from the starting weapons. And second since there is no Auction House (a la Final Fantasy 11, the last MMORPG SqEx made) or Bazar search system (like Everquest implemented after they started their own player marketplace zone), trying to buy anything from another player is actually worse than trying to look up information on the internet (remember the old glass of water from a fire hydrant analogy?). Who in their right mind has the time or patience to check EVERY SINGLE BAZAAR both player and retainer? With thousands of players, it would take weeks of not months of checking to find the item you wanted. Heaven help you if you wanted to do price comparisons. So, I started looking into new weapons for my DoW and DoM classes. Let's just look at what is needed to make them shall we?

Willow Short Bow:
Optimal Rank: 6 Archer
Crafting Difficulty: 11 Carpenter
Materials Needed:
Sheep Leather (5 Tanner)
Willow Branch (Raw material, can be bought from NPC in all cities or harvested from some locations)
Willow Lumber (Carpenter - difficulty currently not know, is not listed on the synthesis charts from skill 1-30 [I have access to a Japanese guidebook and it is not on there])
Fish Glue (14 Alchemist)
Hempen Bow String (3 Weaver)

So let me get this straight... in order to make a rank 6 item, I need to have rank 11 to 14 and in all probability 31+ in crafting ranks? But that's not all folks, let's look at other classes also.

Ash Cane
Optimal Rank: 6 Conjurer
Crafting Difficulty: 5 Carpenter
Materials Needed:
Ash Lumber (Carpenter - difficulty currently not know, is not listed on the synthesis charts from skill 1-30 [I have access to a Japanese guidebook and it is not on there], thankfully this is sold by NPCs in starting cities so is obtainable)
Growth Formula Alpha (5 Alchemist)

This is the ONLY weapon I have been able to craft for myself. And the only reason I was able to was that I could buy one of the materials. Actually both can be bought. However this weapon is the exception that highlights the rule.

Bronze Gladius
Optimal Rank: 6 Gladiator
Crafting Difficulty: 1 Blacksmith
Material Needed
Brass Rivets (11 Armorer)
Animal Glue (4 Alchemist)
Bronze Gladius Blade (11 Blacksmith)
Bone Sword Grip (17 Goldsmith)
Sheep Leather Swordguard (3 Tanner)

Yet again we see that a level 1 Synthesis requires materials from level 11 to 17.

Bronze Spear
Optimal Rank: 6 Lancer
Crafting Difficulty: 11 Carpenter
Materials Needed:
Fish Glue (14 Alchemist)
Bronze Spearhead (11 Blacksmith)
Maple Spear Shaft (8 Carpenter. However a material for this is Maple Lumber which the difficulty for this is not know and presumably 31+ for the reasons listed above)
Iron Spear Clasp (11 Blacksmith)
Bronze Spear **** (4 Blacksmith)

See notes for Willow Shortbow and Bronze Gladius

Bronze War Axe
Optimal Rank: 6 Marauder
Crafting Difficulty: 1 Blacksmith
Materials Needed:
Buffalo Leather Strap (21 Tanner)
Animal Glue (4 Alchemist)
Bronze War Axe Head (11 Blacksmith)
Elm Axe Haft (Carpenter - difficulty currently not know, is not listed on the synthesis charts from skill 1-30 [I have access to a Japanese guidebook and it is not on there])
Bronze Axe **** (1 Blacksmith)

Comment: SSDS (Same S(Excrement) Different Synth)

Bone Hora
Optimal Rank: 6 Pugilist
Crafting Difficulty: 10 Goldsmith
Materials Needed:
2 Bone Chips (can be easily harvested while mining)
Blacklip Oyster (presumably can be gotten from Fishing no listed locations where can be obtained from. Thankfully I started in Ul'Dah and could get one from the Yarzon in the area an uncommon monster)
Animal Glue (4 Alchemist)
Antelope Sinew Cord (15 Tanner)

Comment: SSDS. Heaven help you if you are a pugilist and not in Ul'Dah. I have no idea how you would get a blacklip oyster in other places.

Bone Scepter
Optimal Rank: 5 Thaumaturge
Crafting Difficulty: 10 Goldsmith
Materials Needed:
Marbled Eye (14 Goldsmith)
Bone Chip (can be easily harvested while mining)
Soiled Femur (can be obtained from Grade 2 mining point)
Sheep Leather Strap (Grey) (1 Tanner, however to make one of the materials you need to be 14 Tanner. In order to make the Dye you need to have 10 Alchemist)
Animal Glue (4 Alchemist)

Comment: SSDS

Square Maple Shield
Optimal Rank: 5 Disciple of War or Magic (I Guess Conjurers or Thaumaturges can use this also if they are using a 1 handed weapon)
Crafting Difficulty: 4 Carpenter
Materials Needed:
Bronze Plate (11 Armorer)
Bronze Rivets (11 Armorer)
Bronze Nails (11 Blacksmith)
Sheep Leather Strap (1 Tanner)
Maple Plank (Carpenter - difficulty currently not know, is not listed on the synthesis charts from skill 1-30 [I have access to a Japanese guidebook and it is not on there])

Comment: SSDS

Furthermore I would like to add that these are just the requirements for the rank 5 or 6 weapons. If you actually take a look at what are required to make the rank 9 or 13 weapons, the difficulty of obtaining the materials becomes even more ludicrous.

You will notice that with one exception (and for that only because the materials could be bought), it is impossible to make your own weapons if your crafting ranks are around the same as your War or Magic ranks. Many of the weapons themselves have a difficulty much higher than the optimal rank for the class involved. For those that the weapon difficult is low, the materials required have difficulties much higher than the Optimal Rank for the Class using or for the Difficulty of the synthesis itself often both.

I guess SqEx wants players to be at the mercy of other players who don't care about us and will gouge as much money as they can from us because they know we have no way of making things ourselves before we need them. This might not be so bad if there was a simple and efficient way of buying things from other players, but that is another topic.
#2 Oct 09 2010 at 9:04 PM Rating: Decent
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Yeah it's a little frustrating getting fish glue and the like for lower level crafts. Especially since the game is new. My guess is that it won't be as bad as the game gets along and more people get their crafts up to saturate the market.

But my god I remember my first harpoon adventure...
#3 Oct 09 2010 at 9:07 PM Rating: Excellent
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Terrant wrote:
Well first NPCs do not sell many weapons aside from the starting weapons.


Archer
http://db.ffxivarchives.com/item/4070201
Gladiator
http://db.ffxivarchives.com/item/4030101
Marauder
http://db.ffxivarchives.com/item/4040101
Puligist
http://db.ffxivarchives.com/item/4020102
Lancer
S.O.L.

And for the Magic classes, Wands are -very- common on my server. Scepters are a bit more uncommon, but they are there. But this is besides the point, Square does need a search function for their retainer system, but until then, make some friends who are crafters and see if they will help you out. All you can do for now.
#4 Oct 09 2010 at 9:12 PM Rating: Excellent
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There are people who hit level 20+ crafting on the first day.

Not to suggest that I disagree with you or that you should be one of the 20+ level crafters from the first day, but here are a few resources at your disposal if you wish to craft your own weapons.

ffxiv.yg.com has a feature that allows people to list items they have for sale, based on what world you play on. For example, I just looked up a Maple Longbow and found that at this moment someone on my server is selling it for 21k gil.

Also, you can /shout. Not as delicate or efficient, but I've managed to buy, sell, and give and receive repairs by shouting.

Furthermore, if you're seeking a particular item, I suggest heading to the appropriate crafting guild. It's no surprise that the best place to buy a Cotton Cowl is the Uldah weavers guild, or that the easiest place to score a new wand is probably the Gridania Carpenter's guild. Want some bronze chainmail? I suggest a visit to Limsa.

I agree there's a little bit of cognitive dissonance with requiring higher level crafting items for low level crafts, but when I remodeled my bathroom, I didn't level up my tile-manufacturing skill IRL, I went to Lowe's.
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#5 Oct 09 2010 at 9:20 PM Rating: Good
Willow Lumber isn't rank 31+. It's maybe rank 5-10. If that. It's one of the first things you can make as a carpenter after maple stuff.

Alchemy can be blasted from 1-10 in a couple of hours with not more than 200 or so fire shards and a comfy spot next to the lalafel vendor in Ul'dah who sells Muddy Water. It's worth doing just for Preserve, but really, it's also not worth not doing. It's a mountain of cheap and easy xp, ffs.

So really, it's just another numpty miffed that he can't have what he wants when he wants it. And that makes SE wrong.
#6 Oct 09 2010 at 9:21 PM Rating: Excellent
Dude you have it very wrong and by that i mean you have it very right.

Your talking about low level stuff here only in weapons.
Try synthesizing some stuff when your a rank 16 mage who cant advance because of the ridiculous rank 1 to 7 gear im wearing.
If that isnt enough try leveling every craft class (chase leveling one after another) till you get to a point where you have to upgrade your tools for better results.
For a lvl 7 tool youll need up to lvl 29 to synth the ingredients, that is if you can find them of course.

Players are out their minds also. Im not going to pay a ridiculous 100k for a new Hammer or 250k for a new Hatchet which made me quit bothering looking through bazaars and retainers.

What am i doing now posting here you might be thinking?
Taking a break from farming all day. Prepared my meals, watched a flik, spend time with my wife and the usual.


You can reach the goal to synth anything you want but it takes a very long time and lots of work which is killing the fun of the game. Unfortunately, i can't stay zombified to the screen all day and night especially through boring work.
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#7 Oct 09 2010 at 9:26 PM Rating: Decent
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yes its a dumb system. yes SE is aware how backwards it is. No they don't seem to see a problem with it. Add this to the list of reasons this game is worse than the average MMO.
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#8 Oct 09 2010 at 9:33 PM Rating: Decent
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KujaKoF wrote:
yes its a dumb system. yes SE is aware how backwards it is. No they don't seem to see a problem with it. Add this to the list of reasons this game is worse than the average MMO.

I think 'backwards' was the entire point right?

It's 'trickle-down' crafting economics: High level crafters skilling up make mats that low level crafters can use to skill up. It would probably work well in a established game economy with some form of centralized market, but for people spearheading the economy - as many are now - the system is a nightmare. Without anyone to trickle down to them, the highest level crafters are forced to skillup by spamming mats for lower level synths instead of crafting useful, interesting items.

Not defending it, and its definitely my least favorite part of the game, but i can see some strange, twisted, sadistic rationale behind it as a game mechanic.

Edited, Oct 10th 2010 3:34am by Timorith
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#9 Oct 09 2010 at 9:56 PM Rating: Good
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They forced most everyone into the crafting system. Everyone will now craft and sell items, in order to not have to vender items to NPC's.

End Result Prediction: Crafting will rarely be profitable, because you have a friend that can do it, or it is really cheap, since everyone else can do it. Supply Demand scenario, I'm not an economist, but this is what I expect to happen.
#10 Oct 09 2010 at 10:31 PM Rating: Decent
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Parsalyn wrote:
They forced most everyone into the crafting system. Everyone will now craft and sell items, in order to not have to vender items to NPC's.

End Result Prediction: Crafting will rarely be profitable, because you have a friend that can do it, or it is really cheap, since everyone else can do it. Supply Demand scenario, I'm not an economist, but this is what I expect to happen.


It's called an electronic sweatshop, except you don't even make 10cents an hour doing all the work. You actually subscribe to work in the electronic sweatshop.

SE probably makes RL money from some secret company every time we click.

Except from me...because I clicked "cancel account" ;)
#11 Oct 09 2010 at 10:48 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
It's called an electronic sweatshop, except you don't even make 10cents an hour doing all the work. You actually subscribe to work in the electronic sweatshop.

SE probably makes RL money from some secret company every time we click.

Except from me...because I clicked "cancel account" ;)


lol
#12 Oct 09 2010 at 11:00 PM Rating: Good
If there was an auction house, people could have one craft, buy the parts, make the item, then sell it for their income on the auction house where gladiators would go and buy it using the money they got selling parts they got killing things. If there was an auction house it would all work really well, and integrated and the complex crafts would work great. However, SE seems to have drank the stupid juice half way through planning all this complex integrated economy.
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#13 Oct 09 2010 at 11:29 PM Rating: Decent
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ButterflyM wrote:
Parsalyn wrote:
They forced most everyone into the crafting system. Everyone will now craft and sell items, in order to not have to vender items to NPC's.

End Result Prediction: Crafting will rarely be profitable, because you have a friend that can do it, or it is really cheap, since everyone else can do it. Supply Demand scenario, I'm not an economist, but this is what I expect to happen.


It's called an electronic sweatshop, except you don't even make 10cents an hour doing all the work. You actually subscribe to work in the electronic sweatshop.

SE probably makes RL money from some secret company every time we click.

Except from me...because I clicked "cancel account" ;)


ROFL!!
#14 Oct 09 2010 at 11:46 PM Rating: Decent
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ButterflyM wrote:
Parsalyn wrote:
They forced most everyone into the crafting system. Everyone will now craft and sell items, in order to not have to vender items to NPC's.

End Result Prediction: Crafting will rarely be profitable, because you have a friend that can do it, or it is really cheap, since everyone else can do it. Supply Demand scenario, I'm not an economist, but this is what I expect to happen.


It's called an electronic sweatshop, except you don't even make 10cents an hour doing all the work. You actually subscribe to work in the electronic sweatshop.

SE probably makes RL money from some secret company every time we click.

Except from me...because I clicked "cancel account" ;)


Where did you find this "cancel account" button? SE did hide it somewhere behind a "this site is currently under maintenance" thingy.
#15 Oct 10 2010 at 4:00 AM Rating: Decent
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A lot of nonsense in this thread. No one has to craft. If all you did was fight you would be pretty high rank by now and would have loads of gil to buy whatever equipment you need. Not to mention really nice gear rewards from leves. We're starting to learn that some of those tougher to make mats for synths are also drops from higher level mobs. Trade those mats & your shards to crafters for gear you want. Or sell 'em and buy the gear you want. Network a little and have some good trade deals goin'. Surround yourself with a good LS and help each other.

Overall this system isn't that much different than that flawless work of perfection we like to think of, FFXI. Except that XIV hasn't been around very long to establish a system. What you're seeing is what's to be expected of a brand new game like this.

If you want to be self-sufficient and do all your own gathering & crafting along with fighting, you're gonna be there a while. That shouldn't be a shock...

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#16 Oct 10 2010 at 4:14 AM Rating: Default
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i totally agree with the OP, have melee classes 8+ and yet with all craft jobs 10+ i still cant make level 5-7 primary hand items for many. made a skillet,needle, luckily made a hora and bought a 7 hatchet. im not 20+ and you shouldnt have to be to make simple sub 10 items. 90% of players dont grind constantly, and the ones that have, charge in most cases massive amounts for what imo should be reasonable chance combines for simple gear. every other system ive played, simple items need simple combines. sorry this is just not logical for what otherwise is an interesting crafting system.

my level 10 gla has original 1 wep, 5 shield(bought) and mainly gear ive bought trolling thru wards. its highly likely to annoy me so much that i might stop. as for grinding a craft, in grindania good luck getting all camps with hermes, tried the last one i needed and got one shotted twice for 2k+. uldah my other toon easily got all camps. i only want a level playing field. there needs to be some work done on making recipes have a more logical difficulty and consistency.
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#17 Oct 10 2010 at 4:22 AM Rating: Decent
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I've never felt the need to make my own gear, I sell materials that people need to make gear. Then I use that money to buy completed versions that have nothing to do with the materials I'm selling. Sounds like what SE had in mind.

A level 10 weapon costs around 50K, levelling several DoH to create that item will cost you that much 10 times over in time you could have spent farming mats. Which ultimately will be fruitless when you realise you can't make the level 20 stuff without a bunch of 21+ DoH, so why spread yourself thin in the first place?



Edited, Oct 10th 2010 6:24am by sylph19
#18 Oct 10 2010 at 4:22 AM Rating: Decent
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TwistedOwl wrote:
A lot of nonsense in this thread. No one has to craft. If all you did was fight you would be pretty high rank by now and would have loads of gil to buy whatever equipment you need. Not to mention really nice gear rewards from leves. We're starting to learn that some of those tougher to make mats for synths are also drops from higher level mobs. Trade those mats & your shards to crafters for gear you want. Or sell 'em and buy the gear you want. Network a little and have some good trade deals goin'. Surround yourself with a good LS and help each other.

Overall this system isn't that much different than that flawless work of perfection we like to think of, FFXI. Except that XIV hasn't been around very long to establish a system. What you're seeing is what's to be expected of a brand new game like this.

If you want to be self-sufficient and do all your own gathering & crafting along with fighting, you're gonna be there a while. That shouldn't be a shock...


This.

And most recipe at rank 20 give you r20ish weapons and armours too, even to late 20. There are even exceptions like Ash Macuahuitl that require rank 15 (yes, I made a bunch at rank 15 Carpenter) to craft a rank 25 sword, with the only "annoyance" is requiring a Miner friend to get you Obsidian.
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#19 Oct 10 2010 at 9:04 AM Rating: Excellent
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Timorith wrote:
KujaKoF wrote:
yes its a dumb system. yes SE is aware how backwards it is. No they don't seem to see a problem with it. Add this to the list of reasons this game is worse than the average MMO.

I think 'backwards' was the entire point right?

It's 'trickle-down' crafting economics: High level crafters skilling up make mats that low level crafters can use to skill up. It would probably work well in a established game economy with some form of centralized market, but for people spearheading the economy - as many are now - the system is a nightmare. Without anyone to trickle down to them, the highest level crafters are forced to skillup by spamming mats for lower level synths instead of crafting useful, interesting items.

Not defending it, and its definitely my least favorite part of the game, but i can see some strange, twisted, sadistic rationale behind it as a game mechanic.

Edited, Oct 10th 2010 3:34am by Timorith


I have a different perspective on the reason behind it.

If you fail a synth, you lose everything.

If you are going to make a weapon, and can successfully make all the parts, you are nearly guaranteed to be able to succeed at creating the final product.

If it was the other way around, and the weapon required more skill than the parts, then imagine how much it would suck to spend getting all the parts together just to fail the final synth, and have to start all over again.

Don't get me wrong, leveling crafing sucks, and the bazaar system sucks worse, but I appreciate that weapons (and tools) are easier to craft than the parts.
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#20 Oct 10 2010 at 9:26 AM Rating: Decent
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It is actually worse than the OP stated. What he missed was that to make the higher level items that are required for a low level synth even higher level items are needed and in some cases those items require even higher level synths yet. Whoever created the bills of materials is a complete idiot in my opinion. There are level 1 and 5 items that can not be made until someone reaches level 30+ to make the components and they can npot do so until someone else reaches a level so high that we can not even find info about how to synth it at all.
#21 Oct 10 2010 at 9:39 AM Rating: Good
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Timorith wrote:
KujaKoF wrote:
yes its a dumb system. yes SE is aware how backwards it is. No they don't seem to see a problem with it. Add this to the list of reasons this game is worse than the average MMO.

I think 'backwards' was the entire point right?

It's 'trickle-down' crafting economics: High level crafters skilling up make mats that low level crafters can use to skill up. It would probably work well in a established game economy with some form of centralized market, but for people spearheading the economy - as many are now - the system is a nightmare. Without anyone to trickle down to them, the highest level crafters are forced to skillup by spamming mats for lower level synths instead of crafting useful, interesting items.

Not defending it, and its definitely my least favorite part of the game, but i can see some strange, twisted, sadistic rationale behind it as a game mechanic.

Edited, Oct 10th 2010 3:34am by Timorith



**** it would work right now if everyone didnt have to waste half a day searching bazaars to find the components for their synth and then hope they are not getting screwed on the price
#22 Oct 10 2010 at 12:01 PM Rating: Decent
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OK so because some synth difficulties are relatively unknown (which let's face it isn't a big deal, the game is new) and Alchemy can be easily taken from 1-10 in "a couple of hours" I'm numpty?

If you look closely at the list of items, Alchemy is used for Animal Glue (which can be bought from NPCs in all starting cities, so that isn't a problem in the slightest), Dyes which are a pain to gather the materials for and fish glue which looks like a colossal pain in the **** to make, correct me if I'm wrong here. I think getting to skill 14 would take more than "a couple of hours" and certainly getting the materials for fish glue would take a long time.

Let's see one recipe for fish glue requires an Indigo Herring which no one seems to know where to get it from. Looking at the gather list for the starting areas from the Japanese guidebook that I have (which is by no means complete), Indigo Herring is not listed. While the Sea Pickle required for the same recipe doesn't have a location listed on ZAM, in my book it can be fished in the eastern area of La Noscea. As I know nothing about that area, I cannot say for sure but as Limsa Lominsa is listed in the "lower" area of La Noscea, I would hazard a guess that the fishing points are Grade 2 or maybe even 3. Again this is just a guess.

Another recipe for fish glue requires Dark Bass which as listed on ZAM as being fished in Thanalan from a Grade 3 fishing point. While Sea Cucumber fishing points are unlisted on ZAM, according to my book they can be fished from the Western area of La Noscea which I'm guessing has Grade 2 fishing points.

The last recipe for fish glue requires Wahoo which again sadly no one seems to know where to get them or how difficult it is. While Razor Clams are similarly unlisted on ZAM, accoring to my book they can be speared(?) (not sure what the correct verb to be used with a Gig would be) from Western La Noscea as well. And again I'm guessing that would be Grade 2 fishing points.

Let's take a look at this closely shall we? While Grade 2 fishing points are comparable to 11-20 Alchemy recipes, It looks like the majority of the materials need to be fished from La Noscea. So any Alchemist from Ul'dah or Gridania appear to be SOL. I admit to not knowing how difficult it is to travel from one starting city to another. I have not tried it yet. Yes you can beg or buy a teleport from another player, but either SqEx wants us to be dependent on other players for movement (which lets face it is how FF11 used to be if you hadn't leveled up Whm) or dependent on other players to make higher level materials available (which again is the same as FF11). However one big difference in FF14 is the lack of an auction house or similarly handy method of finding out who is selling what and and how much.

Yes shouts can be used. But as most of the people who are using their Bazaar are AFK, this is of limited use. Most of the players who are active are actually doing something like fighting, gathering, or crafting. I have not tried using shouts to buy or sell things yet. But if this becomes the predominant method of buying and selling, I think we can all agree FF14 will be a lot less pleasant. Do you really want to see the message log scroll by at lightspeed because so many people are shouting? I remember in Everquest what it was like before their centralized Marketplace was added. Players congregated in 1 or 2 zones and the shout spam was so bad, players who weren't actively buying or selling turned off the shout channel so they could see what the **** was going on. And players who were actually trying to buy and sell had a **** of a time trying to find the one or two shouts they wanted in a virtual tidal wave of shouts. Is that what we really want to see in FF14?

I do think that making friends with other players is a very good idea but as this is a new game most people have similarly low crafting levels. Except for those people who can devote copious amounts of time into crafting.

As far as "So really, it's just another numpty miffed that he can't have what he wants when he wants it. And that makes SE wrong." I don't expect immediate gratification from an MMORPG, what I do expect are reasonable crafting recipes that can be reasonably done by people who don't devote their life to the game. If that makes me wrong, then I guess FF14 is the wrong game for me.
#23 Oct 10 2010 at 12:12 PM Rating: Good
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I think this is the primary reason SE has been pushing for reviews to hold out 3 or 4 weeks. Gear is like the main sense of progression in an MMO. Why they designed a system they knew was going to cause problems, I have no idea. I suspect they have some grand idea that it will promote a healthy long term economy, but I'm struggling to see how low level gear is ever going to be anything but worthless. Defying reason and logic is kind of their thing though. The irony is not lost that in trying to force (a lot) more people to craft, they're going to lose far more (to the broke system and initial economy) than they gain. It would have been a good idea to have Gear/Weapons available reasonably from NPCs running up through at least level 20, especially this early on. The problem is just compounded (100 fold) by the retainer system and lack of AH, it's literally like stacking fail on top of fail.


Edited, Oct 10th 2010 2:22pm by Furia
#24 Oct 10 2010 at 12:30 PM Rating: Good
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The crafting in ths game is a lot like logging into the game intself. Lots of useless windows and clicks.

1. You launch the game client. Here they want your account and password. They could have also link the account management here but the didn't. You provide ID and password.
2. You're logged in. Now you can either click play or go manage your account. The account management should have been linked on the first page but this is no big deal. You click play
3. It now brings up another window. I know you clicked you wanted to play but lets give you more options like looking at a cinema graphic movie, the credit (cause lord knows they need to let everyone know who's behind all this), quit, or start. Once again, click start the bloody game. So proceed to click start.
4. Now they bring up another window telling you to get a life. **** it!!!! I just want the game to start, Is it realy that hard? Accept the aggreement.
5. Finnaly you are able to choose your character and go grind.


This to me sums up the crafting. Just like logging into the game. It is not innovated or unique. Just a long drawn out proccess that SE makes you go through cause they can.
#25 Oct 10 2010 at 2:26 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
You will notice that with one exception (and for that only because the materials could be bought), it is impossible to make your own weapons if your crafting ranks are around the same as your War or Magic ranks. Many of the weapons themselves have a difficulty much higher than the optimal rank for the class involved. For those that the weapon difficult is low, the materials required have difficulties much higher than the Optimal Rank for the Class using or for the Difficulty of the synthesis itself often both.
You can level up your craft classes much faster then your War or Magic classes.

Quote:
For a lvl 7 tool youll need up to lvl 29 to synth the ingredients, that is if you can find them of course.
Did you even check the requirements? The highest rank you need for a tool is a Rank 21 weaver i believe (needed for a blacksmit tool Rank 7). The rest you can make easily around lvl 11-15. The real problem is that most of you want to lvl as fast as possible. But that's not the intension of this game. So be patient and do you thing. If not, then this is not your thing. I am glad what SE did, otherwise there is no fun in crafting at all if you can find everything and make everything that easely. I never felt so good when i made my first bronze armor set as armorer.

Edited, Oct 10th 2010 4:27pm by grazypanda
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#26 Oct 10 2010 at 3:27 PM Rating: Good
grazypanda wrote:


Quote:
For a lvl 7 tool youll need up to lvl 29 to synth the ingredients, that is if you can find them of course.
Did you even check the requirements? The highest rank you need for a tool is a Rank 21 weaver i believe (needed for a blacksmit tool Rank 7). The rest you can make easily around lvl 11-15. The real problem is that most of you want to lvl as fast as possible. But that's not the intension of this game. So be patient and do you thing. If not, then this is not your thing. I am glad what SE did, otherwise there is no fun in crafting at all if you can find everything and make everything that easely. I never felt so good when i made my first bronze armor set as armorer.

Here is just one of the examples i was talking about:
Level 6 Blacksmith Birdsbeak Hammer for a lvl 10 blacksmith.
Ingredients needed: Undyed Canvas lvl 29 Weaver

Ill have to either wait, try to synth another type of hammer or take a chance and synth one by buying the canvas for 80k (over 50% of my gld).
Ill wait till i can synth one but seriously dude, its just stupid to have such a high lvl ingredient for a much lower lvl product.
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#27 Oct 10 2010 at 3:29 PM Rating: Excellent
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I do agree with that, but that's only one tool. The rest doesn't have that problem strange enough.
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<FONT size="11px" face="Georgia" color="#66666"><b>Name:</b> Aihredhiel Urdrenn <b>Starting City:</b> Ul'dah <b>Physical Level:</b> 36 <br><b>GLA:</b> 19 <b>CON:</b> 16 <b>BSM:</b> 19 <b>ARM:</b> 19 <b>TAN:</b> 16 <b>WVR:</b> 17 <b>CRP:/<b> 12 <b>GLD:</b> 14 <b>ALC:</b> 16 <b>CUL:</b> 9 <b>MIN:</b> 15 <b/>BTN:</b> 12 <b>FSH:</b> 8</font>
#28 Oct 10 2010 at 3:32 PM Rating: Default
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Again, those complaints about needing higher rank things still come off as just whining to me. It's not a flaw in the system. The people who have grinded crafting to high ranks are the only ones making certain items. You don't have to have them to progress. Not having a brass or iron alembic hasn't stopped me from getting alchemy to 20. When I first saw a plumed bronze pickaxe for 150k I thought, **** that's cool...I'll wait. Now I made myself a +2 version. Seems like everyone feels entitled to have the best HQ gear on their first trip ranking up a class. If you want that you're gonna have to pay top gil or wait a while. Pay the price for being one of the few cool people with that new item if you must. The game just came out, deal with average gear in some slots and grind through it. I understand the complaints about the crafting menus & such, but some of this whining is just pathetic. Makes me sick to read this ***********
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#29 Oct 10 2010 at 4:13 PM Rating: Good
TwistedOwl wrote:
Again, those complaints about needing higher rank things still come off as just whining to me. It's not a flaw in the system. The people who have grinded crafting to high ranks are the only ones making certain items. You don't have to have them to progress. Not having a brass or iron alembic hasn't stopped me from getting alchemy to 20. When I first saw a plumed bronze pickaxe for 150k I thought, **** that's cool...I'll wait. Now I made myself a +2 version. Seems like everyone feels entitled to have the best HQ gear on their first trip ranking up a class. If you want that you're gonna have to pay top gil or wait a while. Pay the price for being one of the few cool people with that new item if you must. The game just came out, deal with average gear in some slots and grind through it. I understand the complaints about the crafting menus & such, but some of this whining is just pathetic. Makes me sick to read this bullsh*t...


Take a look at this for example:
Bronze Arrowheads which you can get great skill ups even as a lvl 7 blacksmith.
As soon as i hit lvl 9 every single synth failed miserably.
How is that possible? Tons of nuggets wasted and 2 hours farming them just lost in 15 mins.
Not to mention the very limited crystals (not shards) with very low drop rates it takes to synth nuggets.
What do i do? Not express myself because it may be pathetic and never mention it to anyone?
Im moving on synthesizing other things that work but not everyone can be the same class so things can work out smoothly.
This is my entitled criticism like it or not.
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#30 Oct 10 2010 at 4:20 PM Rating: Decent
After having spent more time than I'd care to recall churning out bronze chain sheets (ore -> nuggets -> ingots -> wire -> rings -> sheets) I can tell you I see a very clear purpose and benefit to the way the crafting is currently set up. If you're approaching your crafting class in XIV with the attention most people would a combat class, you'd probably be more than happy to slave out the lowbie synths to LS mates or what have you just to save yourself some time and still produce goods to sell/give away to said LS mates. Bronze Wire is the synth in that process that requires the highest rank, and after that it trickles down to the point where you could hand off a stack of bronze rings to a rank 5+ armorer and have them churn out sheets for you, then nab the sheets back and bust out some finished chain armor pieces. Your apprentice gets skillups with your materials and you save time.

People are going to whine about the tiered inter-dependence of the crafting system for ages. Probably months. Maybe even years. And you know what? It's not going to change, because SE did it on purpose. And at the risk of making a redundant statement, they did it on purpose for a reason. If you don't grasp it, tough. Some of us do...including SE. Learn to accept it or pay people like me to make your stuff.
#31 Oct 10 2010 at 4:32 PM Rating: Good
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2,120 posts
Illicious wrote:
TwistedOwl wrote:
Again, those complaints about needing higher rank things still come off as just whining to me. It's not a flaw in the system. The people who have grinded crafting to high ranks are the only ones making certain items. You don't have to have them to progress. Not having a brass or iron alembic hasn't stopped me from getting alchemy to 20. When I first saw a plumed bronze pickaxe for 150k I thought, **** that's cool...I'll wait. Now I made myself a +2 version. Seems like everyone feels entitled to have the best HQ gear on their first trip ranking up a class. If you want that you're gonna have to pay top gil or wait a while. Pay the price for being one of the few cool people with that new item if you must. The game just came out, deal with average gear in some slots and grind through it. I understand the complaints about the crafting menus & such, but some of this whining is just pathetic. Makes me sick to read this bullsh*t...


Take a look at this for example:
Bronze Arrowheads which you can get great skill ups even as a lvl 7 blacksmith.
As soon as i hit lvl 9 every single synth failed miserably.
How is that possible? Tons of nuggets wasted and 2 hours farming them just lost in 15 mins.
Not to mention the very limited crystals (not shards) with very low drop rates it takes to synth nuggets.
What do i do? Not express myself because it may be pathetic and never mention it to anyone?
Im moving on synthesizing other things that work but not everyone can be the same class so things can work out smoothly.
This is my entitled criticism like it or not.


My post was more about the QQing about recipes for low rank items requiring higher rank mats. And QQing about prices of brand new, pretty exclusive items being so expensive. All of that is whining and doesn't mean the system is broken. Thanks for interpreting my post as calling anyone with a problem pathetic and whiny though. Reading comprehension ftw...

I dunno about your situation, but I'd suggest getting craft support if you haven't been. The recipe in your example is supposed to require some training brook. I know a lot of those are easy to get around, but some of my weaving synths give me trouble without true support from the guild. Also keep your tool repaired. I notice a drop in performance if I let it degrade too far. Or like you said, try some different recipes. I've got a couple crafts 10+ that I'm still using weathered tools on just fine.

Edited, Oct 10th 2010 6:34pm by TwistedOwl
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#32 Oct 10 2010 at 5:03 PM Rating: Decent
TwistedOwl wrote:

I dunno about your situation, but I'd suggest getting craft support if you haven't been. The recipe in your example is supposed to require some training brook. I know a lot of those are easy to get around, but some of my weaving synths give me trouble without true support from the guild. Also keep your tool repaired. I notice a drop in performance if I let it degrade too far. Or like you said, try some different recipes. I've got a couple crafts 10+ that I'm still using weathered tools on just fine. [/sm]

I never said the system is broken (though it may seem like it to some) but the way it is set up forces one to seek another for help which is fine but still is exaggerated.
I know and have used all the guild and training supports, it still wont help for a much higher rank item. It will take much more time and work which dictates what the game is about.

TwistedOwl wrote:

Thanks for interpreting my post as calling anyone with a problem pathetic and whiny though. Reading comprehension ftw...

Right. Showing you an example of my issue made you come to that conclusion and yet i have to see you use those insulting words because you feel that I can't respectfully express myself. Nice assumption governed by comprehension.
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#33 Oct 10 2010 at 5:21 PM Rating: Good
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Illicious wrote:
TwistedOwl wrote:

I dunno about your situation, but I'd suggest getting craft support if you haven't been. The recipe in your example is supposed to require some training brook. I know a lot of those are easy to get around, but some of my weaving synths give me trouble without true support from the guild. Also keep your tool repaired. I notice a drop in performance if I let it degrade too far. Or like you said, try some different recipes. I've got a couple crafts 10+ that I'm still using weathered tools on just fine. [/sm]

I never said the system is broken (though it may seem like it to some) but the way it is set up forces one to seek another for help which is fine but still is exaggerated.
I know and have used all the guild and training supports, it still wont help for a much higher rank item. It will take much more time and work which dictates what the game is about.

TwistedOwl wrote:

Thanks for interpreting my post as calling anyone with a problem pathetic and whiny though. Reading comprehension ftw...

Right. Showing you an example of my issue made you come to that conclusion and yet i have to see you use those insulting words because you feel that I can't respectfully express myself. Nice assumption governed by comprehension.



Hmm...
Illicious wrote:
I was skilling up making these as a lvl 7 blacksmith. As soon as i hit lvl 9 every synth failed. 60 ores that took 2 hours to farm just wasted away in less than 20 mins. Game is seriously broken.


Quote:
What do i do? Not express myself because it may be pathetic and never mention it to anyone?


From your own words...


You're free to whine like a little girl with a skinned knee all ya like. And I'm free to call you on it...
Some recipes are harder than others even if you're the suggested rank listed on Zam, Lodestone, or another site. They're not always correct either. I don't **** & moan about cloth being harder to make than other stuff, I wait until I'm higher level or risk losing mats.

It's still not a flaw in the game...gamers are such spoiled crybabies these days...

Edited, Oct 10th 2010 7:27pm by TwistedOwl
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#34 Oct 10 2010 at 5:32 PM Rating: Default
15 posts
With the crafting like it is and not much to do for combat over half the players will not be playing after 30 days. Then maybe they will make a change or the game will shut down after a couple months like APB did.
#35 Oct 10 2010 at 5:44 PM Rating: Default
TwistedOwl wrote:
Illicious wrote:
TwistedOwl wrote:

I dunno about your situation, but I'd suggest getting craft support if you haven't been. The recipe in your example is supposed to require some training brook. I know a lot of those are easy to get around, but some of my weaving synths give me trouble without true support from the guild. Also keep your tool repaired. I notice a drop in performance if I let it degrade too far. Or like you said, try some different recipes. I've got a couple crafts 10+ that I'm still using weathered tools on just fine.

I never said the system is broken (though it may seem like it to some) but the way it is set up forces one to seek another for help which is fine but still is exaggerated.
I know and have used all the guild and training supports, it still wont help for a much higher rank item. It will take much more time and work which dictates what the game is about.

TwistedOwl wrote:

Thanks for interpreting my post as calling anyone with a problem pathetic and whiny though. Reading comprehension ftw...

Right. Showing you an example of my issue made you come to that conclusion and yet i have to see you use those insulting words because you feel that I can't respectfully express myself. Nice assumption governed by comprehension.



Hmm...
Illicious wrote:
I was skilling up making these as a lvl 7 blacksmith. As soon as i hit lvl 9 every synth failed. 60 ores that took 2 hours to farm just wasted away in less than 20 mins. Game is seriously broken.


Quote:
What do i do? Not express myself because it may be pathetic and never mention it to anyone?


From your own words, not mine...
You're free to whine like a little girl with a skinned knee all ya like. And I'm free to call you on it...
Some recipes are harder than others even if you're the suggested rank listed on Zam, Lodestone, or another site. They're not always correct either. I don't **** & moan about cloth being harder to make than other stuff, I wait until I'm higher level or risk losing mats.

It's still not a flaw in the game...gamers are such spoiled crybabies these days...
[/sm]

Its just you don't get what im saying.
Yes i said the Game is seriously broken but does that mean i meant a flaw in the game?
If it is meant to be that way then how would it be a flaw? I never said the game is broken as in a flaw or glitch they have to fix.
If your talking about flaws then of course ill say the following:
Quote:
I never said the system is broken (though it may seem like it to some) but the way it is set up forces one to seek another for help which is fine but still is exaggerated.

Why do you have to try to belittle someone cause they share their account with the OP?
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#36 Oct 10 2010 at 6:07 PM Rating: Excellent
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Illicious wrote:
TwistedOwl wrote:
Illicious wrote:
TwistedOwl wrote:

I dunno about your situation, but I'd suggest getting craft support if you haven't been. The recipe in your example is supposed to require some training brook. I know a lot of those are easy to get around, but some of my weaving synths give me trouble without true support from the guild. Also keep your tool repaired. I notice a drop in performance if I let it degrade too far. Or like you said, try some different recipes. I've got a couple crafts 10+ that I'm still using weathered tools on just fine.

I never said the system is broken (though it may seem like it to some) but the way it is set up forces one to seek another for help which is fine but still is exaggerated.
I know and have used all the guild and training supports, it still wont help for a much higher rank item. It will take much more time and work which dictates what the game is about.

TwistedOwl wrote:

Thanks for interpreting my post as calling anyone with a problem pathetic and whiny though. Reading comprehension ftw...

Right. Showing you an example of my issue made you come to that conclusion and yet i have to see you use those insulting words because you feel that I can't respectfully express myself. Nice assumption governed by comprehension.



Hmm...
Illicious wrote:
I was skilling up making these as a lvl 7 blacksmith. As soon as i hit lvl 9 every synth failed. 60 ores that took 2 hours to farm just wasted away in less than 20 mins. Game is seriously broken.


Quote:
What do i do? Not express myself because it may be pathetic and never mention it to anyone?


From your own words, not mine...
You're free to whine like a little girl with a skinned knee all ya like. And I'm free to call you on it...
Some recipes are harder than others even if you're the suggested rank listed on Zam, Lodestone, or another site. They're not always correct either. I don't **** & moan about cloth being harder to make than other stuff, I wait until I'm higher level or risk losing mats.

It's still not a flaw in the game...gamers are such spoiled crybabies these days...
[/sm]

Its just you don't get what im saying.
Yes i said the Game is seriously broken but does that mean i meant a flaw in the game?
If it is meant to be that way then how would it be a flaw? I never said the game is broken as in a flaw or glitch they have to fix.
If your talking about flaws then of course ill say the following:
Quote:
I never said the system is broken (though it may seem like it to some) but the way it is set up forces one to seek another for help which is fine but still is exaggerated.

Why do you have to try to belittle someone cause they share their account with the OP?


Because you chose to quote my post(which had nothing to do with you when made) and seemed to take personal offense to the comments I made about the pathetic whining goin' on. Instead of just sharing your account with the OP you made it a point to use my post as an example of trying to censor people or somethin'. With...
Quote:
What do i do? Not express myself because it may be pathetic and never mention it to anyone?
This is my entitled criticism like it or not.


See what happened there? We're running in circles here, starting with when you decided to defend against my entitled criticism on your entitled criticism. Gives me a headache just thinking about that. Anyway, you didn't just "share an account" like you say, if you didn't want a discussion about the whining you shouldn't have asked for one and brought my post into it...

I admit maybe I went overboard with the anger, but all I mostly see is QQing on here nowadays and someone's gotta be a jerk and get ****** about it once in a while. Sorry if some of that was more about being annoyed with the overall forums and putting it all on you...

Edited, Oct 10th 2010 8:18pm by TwistedOwl
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#37 Oct 10 2010 at 6:15 PM Rating: Good
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Stealing my own response to a crafting feedback thread because it's relevant:

MasterOutlaw the Irrelevant wrote:
Requiring some high rank component to make a much lower ranking item doesn't make any sense no matter how you look at it. Crafting is supposed to be about progression: you learn how to make the various components and then you learn how to put them together in different ways. I don't even mind the cross-crafting because I think it's pretty nifty, but it's stupid to need the aid of a rank 20 something Leatherworker to make a rank 2 cloth item.

What should happen is if you're going to make the different crafts rely on one another, they need to progress together too. Meaning the materials needed for an item need to have similar rank requirements to make. Example: you want to make a chain vest that's a rank 10 armorer synth, but it also requires components from weaving and leatherworking. All of the materials made by the three classes needed for the synth should be, let's say, around rank 7 or so. It's silly for the leatherworking and armorer components to be a rank 5 synth, but for the weaver you need something that requires rank 30. How the **** is that supposed to work and who the **** thought that made any sense?

It's like SE spent so much effort trying to be complex and unique they didn't care what kind of mess it would make as long as they could say it was "different". You can be different by eating soup with a fork while everyone else uses a spoon, but people are going to call you a @#%^ing idiot not unique.
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#38 Oct 10 2010 at 6:44 PM Rating: Good
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MasterOutlaw the Irrelevant wrote:
Stealing my own response to a crafting feedback thread because it's relevant:

MasterOutlaw the Irrelevant wrote:
Requiring some high rank component to make a much lower ranking item doesn't make any sense no matter how you look at it. Crafting is supposed to be about progression: you learn how to make the various components and then you learn how to put them together in different ways. I don't even mind the cross-crafting because I think it's pretty nifty, but it's stupid to need the aid of a rank 20 something Leatherworker to make a rank 2 cloth item.

What should happen is if you're going to make the different crafts rely on one another, they need to progress together too. Meaning the materials needed for an item need to have similar rank requirements to make. Example: you want to make a chain vest that's a rank 10 armorer synth, but it also requires components from weaving and leatherworking. All of the materials made by the three classes needed for the synth should be, let's say, around rank 7 or so. It's silly for the leatherworking and armorer components to be a rank 5 synth, but for the weaver you need something that requires rank 30. How the **** is that supposed to work and who the **** thought that made any sense?

It's like SE spent so much effort trying to be complex and unique they didn't care what kind of mess it would make as long as they could say it was "different". You can be different by eating soup with a fork while everyone else uses a spoon, but people are going to call you a @#%^ing idiot not unique.


I'll steal from Aurelius here since he said it well...
The One and Only Aurelius wrote:
People are going to whine about the tiered inter-dependence of the crafting system for ages. Probably months. Maybe even years. And you know what? It's not going to change, because SE did it on purpose. And at the risk of making a redundant statement, they did it on purpose for a reason. If you don't grasp it, tough. Some of us do...including SE. Learn to accept it or pay people like me to make your stuff.
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#39 Oct 10 2010 at 7:17 PM Rating: Good
tl;dr: RTFM

During the open beta and shortly after CE launch, a handful (aka apparently the majority) of slack-jawed yokels decided that the hands down best way to craft anything was to spam rapid synthesis. Rapid Rapid Rapid Rapid win. They didn't care about finished quality, they didn't care about orb colors or states. They didn't care about much of anything beyond finishing the synthesis and collecting their skill points and xp. Apparently, SE took a look at this and shook their heads.

RAPID SYNTHESIS WAS NERFED. Do ya'll not remember when we had a patch and right after the patch, everything went wonky with synthesis? And SE actually posted a notice saying it was borked and that they were working on it? And then a couple of days later they released another patch that fixed it, yes? The patch right before everything went wonky was the patch where they nerfed rapid synthesis (and also boosted the durability loss for neutral/failed standard synthesis).

Now, you actually have to synth properly. Rapid Synthesis was obviously never intended by SE to be the be-all, end-all synthesis option unless you were aiming for HQ. It was one of the two things it is now:

1) The "Hail Mary" attempt to recover a synthesis nearing failure with very slim chances to succeed.
2) A means to expedite the synthesis of items you significantly outrank.

That's it. So if you've been trying to Rapid spam your way to fame and glory since it was nerfed, I'm here to tell you

UR DOIN IT WRONG.

Smarten up. L2P ffs, and stop blaming SE because you're ignorant.

In most other MMOs, crafting is a side thing. It's something you do to round out your character or give you a break from the grind. Maybe you take up a crafting profession to make stuff for yourself and/or to earn a bit of extra currency. SE has elevated the role of crafters in XI. I haven't seen a single wearable item in the game so far that can't be made by a crafter. It's not like other MMOs where you have gear that you got from a drop/quest/whatever and crafted gear. In XIV, so far it's all crafted.

And to bring that whole shenanigan in line with the MMO experience, instead of being a one person show and working your way through the ranks with your crafting profession, SE appears to feel that if you need a group to get the best rewards out of combat, so too should you need a network of crafters to get the most out of your DoH profession. Either that or you rank up all of the DoH classes alongside one another.

Either way, you numpties see a rank 5 synthesis recommendation and think, "That means I'm supposed to be able to make this now." You can! Huzzah!

But it doesn't mean you're supposed to have easy access to all of the mats. Stop arguing like it's broken. The criteria to making something is not just the skill required for the final assembly. If you ain't got the mats, you ain't got jack. And that leaves you two options: wait until you've got the skill to make the components that will allow you to do the (lower rank) final assembly, or source the components elsewhere.

In case you missed it the first time: just because you have the DoH class rank to be successful with the synthesis doesn't mean you're expected to make the item with whatever you happen to have lying around.

It's not broken. You're just looking at it the wrong way. Try...ffs TRY...to think of how the game will be in 6 months. It's still in its infancy. Rank 25+ crafters are godly right now, and rank 25 in 6 months is going to seem low. Prices are already starting to come down little by little across the board. Competition on shards is up. Competition on finished goods is up. Demand is dwindling as people fill out their gear/weapon/tool sets. The people on the cutting edge of DoH progression are still making a mint but the lower tier aspect of the market is starting to fill out. So yes, Virginia, in 6 months it's entirely likely you will be able to get your rank 20+ weaver cloth and your hammer head and your walnut hammer grip for a song because people will be making them to skill up and offloading them at bargain basement prices because the demand will have evened out.

If you can't think long term, you've got nothing to contribute to the discussion. The game is in its infancy. If you can't see that, there's no hope for you.
#40 Oct 10 2010 at 7:27 PM Rating: Decent
8 posts
The One and Only Aurelius wrote:
After having spent more time than I'd care to recall churning out bronze chain sheets (ore -> nuggets -> ingots -> wire -> rings -> sheets) I can tell you I see a very clear purpose and benefit to the way the crafting is currently set up. If you're approaching your crafting class in XIV with the attention most people would a combat class, you'd probably be more than happy to slave out the lowbie synths to LS mates or what have you just to save yourself some time and still produce goods to sell/give away to said LS mates. Bronze Wire is the synth in that process that requires the highest rank, and after that it trickles down to the point where you could hand off a stack of bronze rings to a rank 5+ armorer and have them churn out sheets for you, then nab the sheets back and bust out some finished chain armor pieces. Your apprentice gets skillups with your materials and you save time.

People are going to whine about the tiered inter-dependence of the crafting system for ages. Probably months. Maybe even years. And you know what? It's not going to change, because SE did it on purpose. And at the risk of making a redundant statement, they did it on purpose for a reason. If you don't grasp it, tough. Some of us do...including SE. Learn to accept it or pay people like me to make your stuff.


Just to make be absolutely clear, what do you think is the purpose of the Tiered inter-dependent crafting system? You do not clearly state what you believe is the purpose before you unload about people not being as perceptive as you claim to be.

You imply but not state that the purpose is for higher crafters to make materials for the lower crafters to purchase use and then the higher crafters take the materials the lower crafters use for their own synthesis.

If this is your assertion, it makes perfect sense and would be a beautiful and dynamic system for crafting. Ironically it makes crafting more interaction dependent than the monster-bashing classes I have seen thus far (and admittedly I'm still under rank 20 in a DoW or DoM class). However one problem is that since there is no easy way to buy or sell, this limits the functionality and efficiency of such a system.

Mr "The One and Only Aurelius" have you tried going into the 1st Bazaar market zone and seen how long it takes to search all the retainers and players in there? I have done it twice looking for materials for synths. It was not fun and took a horrendously long time.

As far as linkshell mates benefiting from higher level players that sounds wonderful, but how do you know that your LS has higher or lower rank players in the craft that you are producing materials from? Also we are all starting the game at around the same time. Yes some players have more time than others to play, but to imply that there is a large percentage (40%+) of players with 30+ skill 12 days after the release of the game (19 if you bought the Collector's edition), especially when the game was more specifically targeting the "casual" market, well I don't think that's entirely reasonable.

And you propose that if people do not share the same enlightened perceptive as you their options are just "put up" with the current system and muddle their way through or pay people who are enlightened like you to make things for them. You forgot a third option available to all and taken by many, don't play a game that you do not enjoy.

Just out of curiosity you seem to be a very diehard fan about FF14. What about FF14 do you enjoy so much? Or is it that you are simply tired of many being negative about the game? I find such a fanatic and caustic defense of what many conclude to be a flawed or at least very immature system to be unlikely from one who would appear to be perceptive and well thought out.
#41 Oct 10 2010 at 7:50 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
As far as linkshell mates benefiting from higher level players that sounds wonderful, but how do you know that your LS has higher or lower rank players in the craft that you are producing materials from?

Uh, talk to them?
Quote:

Just out of curiosity you seem to be a very diehard fan about FF14. What about FF14 do you enjoy so much? Or is it that you are simply tired of many being negative about the game? I find such a fanatic and caustic defense of what many conclude to be a flawed or at least very immature system to be unlikely from one who would appear to be perceptive and well thought out.


Can't speak for Aurelius, but for me it comes off as angry and fanatic because it's running the same circles over & over again on these forums. This one annoys me more than others because it's not talking about true flaws in the game. Some people just don't get it. It's tiring to keep repeating the same things and getting the same questions back. Which is more immature, the system or people wanting it to be easier? Sounds like people want it really simple & easy. Flooding the market quickly and making everything cheap. That's what would happen with everyone easily getting 10+ in crafts and there not being a need for higher level mats. There's a lot of good things going on with this system if you interact with other people and do some networking. Like I said somewhere up there earlier.

Just like the fighting classes. If people wish to continue playing a solo mmo, doing everything on their own, expect to be frustrated and to progress slowly.

As for your 3rd option...people hate hearing it, but if ya really don't like it...stop playing. Enough with the crusades hoping to change parts of the game that are working properly and many are enjoying. Save those efforts for the things that really need fixing...



Edited, Oct 10th 2010 9:57pm by TwistedOwl
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#42 Oct 10 2010 at 8:25 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
In most other MMOs, crafting is a side thing. It's something you do to round out your character or give you a break from the grind. Maybe you take up a crafting profession to make stuff for yourself and/or to earn a bit of extra currency. SE has elevated the role of crafters in XI. I haven't seen a single wearable item in the game so far that can't be made by a crafter. It's not like other MMOs where you have gear that you got from a drop/quest/whatever and crafted gear. In XIV, so far it's all crafted.


I get what you are saying about crafting, i sorta agree... though i would have put the ranks closer together.. but thats just a difference in opinion.

I think another person said it as well, alot of these issues could easily disapear with a functioning AH.

The thing i have to voice though, is that they have elevated crafting to such a high level as you say yet they did not implement a built in recipe log. No DoW, DoM or DoL needs outside sources (like the zam or lodestone recipe list) to function... its pretty jacked up that DoH needs that.
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#43 Oct 10 2010 at 9:26 PM Rating: Excellent
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KacesofCaitsith wrote:
I get what you are saying about crafting, i sorta agree... though i would have put the ranks closer together.. but thats just a difference in opinion.


That's what irritates me. I like the cross-class synthing because it puts a greater sense of accomplishment into what you do, but some of the rank spreads are too big for the item that's being made. Needing the help of someone 20+ ranks above me is a bit excessive.
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#44 Oct 10 2010 at 10:54 PM Rating: Decent
Terrant wrote:
Just to make be absolutely clear, what do you think is the purpose of the Tiered inter-dependent crafting system? You do not clearly state what you believe is the purpose before you unload about people not being as perceptive as you claim to be.


It creates a benefit to associating with other crafters as opposed to simply trying to do everything yourself. Once you get beyond about the rank 20 mark for most DoH classes, things get costly to make. I'm speaking mostly in terms of shards, but also in terms of time required to advance. The skill points you earn per synth operate on the same formula whether you're rank 2 or rank 20, meaning that every time the value required to move from one rank to the next moves up, the number of synths required to manage that rank up increases. And when the cost of shards + mats starts to increase, your willingness to take risks for skillups decreases. That means you wind up doing synths that net you 200 skill points instead of 300+ with further increases the time/mats required to progress. In short, beyond a certain point only the most hardcore of the hardcore are going to be leveling all crafts simultaneously.

What people seem to be struggling with is the fact that they come across a recipe and think, "Wow! I can make <super item of doom> now!"

Then they look at the mats and think, "Well, ****. I can't make all of the components even though I can make the item."

Then they look around and see the game for where it is now.

Then they stop and whine.

Instead of taking the long view with a bit of understanding, they just throw in the towel and cry about it.

Think about it: everything you need to make all of these rank 5-7 items people are whining about not being able to make the components for can be farmed in lowbie areas and/or earned from levequests rank 10 and below. I've got buffalo hide sitting on my retainer from a rank 10 leatherworking levequest. Can't use it until 25 leatherworker. It also drops from wolves you can kill at rank 12-14. Cotton bolls used to make cotton yarn which can then be used to make undyed canvas drops from rank 5ish beetles (along with the lightning crystals and earth shards necessary for the synth). I can take one stab at a grade 5 node (mine/quarry/log/harvest) at rank 17. That means all the goodies you need to get dyes made can conceivably be earned way before you're supposed to be able to get them.

But we aren't interested in the long view here, are we? So what things will be significantly different in a couple of short months? Down the road aspiring Joe Blacksmith can hand over a bunch of mats he farmed on his rank 7 conjurer to his friend the weaver and get undyed canvas cloth made that he can put towards his rank 7/12 tools. He can log the logs he needs as a rank 1 botanist to hand over with some wind crystals to his friend Bob Carpenter to make the handle. Of course, this would be after he pays his friend Mary Alchemist a visit with the handful of flax he carved out of some fireflies to make him the linseed oil he's got to pass over to Bob as part of the handle.

None if this seems to matter to you guys. It's as if you think you're playing an MMO that has been in live official service for a year or more and it's still difficult for entry level crafters to get their foot in the door. I still can't make new rank 7 tools for GS or carpenter because I can't make the nails or the final synth on the hammer. Big freakin' deal. 3 months from now high level blacksmiths will be churning these things out for a trivial sum just to clear out the mats.

You guys want it the way you want it and if you can't have it NOW, something must be wrong. I say get yer knickers unbunched and stop being so **** short sighted about everything.
#45 Oct 10 2010 at 11:44 PM Rating: Decent
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The One and Only Aurelius wrote:
Terrant wrote:
Just to make be absolutely clear, what do you think is the purpose of the Tiered inter-dependent crafting system? You do not clearly state what you believe is the purpose before you unload about people not being as perceptive as you claim to be.


It creates a benefit to associating with other crafters as opposed to simply trying to do everything yourself. Once you get beyond about the rank 20 mark for most DoH classes, things get costly to make. I'm speaking mostly in terms of shards, but also in terms of time required to advance. The skill points you earn per synth operate on the same formula whether you're rank 2 or rank 20, meaning that every time the value required to move from one rank to the next moves up, the number of synths required to manage that rank up increases. And when the cost of shards + mats starts to increase, your willingness to take risks for skillups decreases. That means you wind up doing synths that net you 200 skill points instead of 300+ with further increases the time/mats required to progress. In short, beyond a certain point only the most hardcore of the hardcore are going to be leveling all crafts simultaneously.

What people seem to be struggling with is the fact that they come across a recipe and think, "Wow! I can make <super item of doom> now!"

Then they look at the mats and think, "Well, sh*t. I can't make all of the components even though I can make the item."

Then they look around and see the game for where it is now.

Then they stop and whine.

Instead of taking the long view with a bit of understanding, they just throw in the towel and cry about it.

Think about it: everything you need to make all of these rank 5-7 items people are whining about not being able to make the components for can be farmed in lowbie areas and/or earned from levequests rank 10 and below. I've got buffalo hide sitting on my retainer from a rank 10 leatherworking levequest. Can't use it until 25 leatherworker. It also drops from wolves you can kill at rank 12-14. Cotton bolls used to make cotton yarn which can then be used to make undyed canvas drops from rank 5ish beetles (along with the lightning crystals and earth shards necessary for the synth). I can take one stab at a grade 5 node (mine/quarry/log/harvest) at rank 17. That means all the goodies you need to get dyes made can conceivably be earned way before you're supposed to be able to get them.

But we aren't interested in the long view here, are we? So what things will be significantly different in a couple of short months? Down the road aspiring Joe Blacksmith can hand over a bunch of mats he farmed on his rank 7 conjurer to his friend the weaver and get undyed canvas cloth made that he can put towards his rank 7/12 tools. He can log the logs he needs as a rank 1 botanist to hand over with some wind crystals to his friend Bob Carpenter to make the handle. Of course, this would be after he pays his friend Mary Alchemist a visit with the handful of flax he carved out of some fireflies to make him the linseed oil he's got to pass over to Bob as part of the handle.

None if this seems to matter to you guys. It's as if you think you're playing an MMO that has been in live official service for a year or more and it's still difficult for entry level crafters to get their foot in the door. I still can't make new rank 7 tools for GS or carpenter because I can't make the nails or the final synth on the hammer. Big freakin' deal. 3 months from now high level blacksmiths will be churning these things out for a trivial sum just to clear out the mats.

You guys want it the way you want it and if you can't have it NOW, something must be wrong. I say get yer knickers unbunched and stop being so **** short sighted about everything.


Unless they do something about the AH, crafting will still be the way it is no matter how wide and varried the ranks of players are. As of right now I'm left with getting materials myself or only from the small click I play with. Going to the ward to search for something is such a pain and a waste of time. If SE can make buying and selling easier it would help in the early stage. And I'll repeat again. Unless they find a viable way for people to buy and sell their material, crafting will still be a failure 3 months from now due to no economy.
#46 Oct 10 2010 at 11:49 PM Rating: Decent
doubleax wrote:

Unless they do something about the AH, crafting will still be the way it is no matter how wide and varried the ranks of players are. As of right now I'm left with getting materials myself or only from the small click I play with. Going to the ward to search for something is such a pain and a waste of time. If SE can make buying and selling easier it would help in the early stage. And I'll repeat again. Unless they find a viable way for people to buy and sell their material, crafting will still be a failure 3 months from now due to no economy.


I'm doing just fine with or without the wards as they are. Don't talk like it's impossible. It's not. I'm proof.
#47 Oct 10 2010 at 11:57 PM Rating: Good
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The One and Only Aurelius wrote:
doubleax wrote:

Unless they do something about the AH, crafting will still be the way it is no matter how wide and varried the ranks of players are. As of right now I'm left with getting materials myself or only from the small click I play with. Going to the ward to search for something is such a pain and a waste of time. If SE can make buying and selling easier it would help in the early stage. And I'll repeat again. Unless they find a viable way for people to buy and sell their material, crafting will still be a failure 3 months from now due to no economy.


I'm doing just fine with or without the wards as they are. Don't talk like it's impossible. It's not. I'm proof.


I guess you didn't read. I'm not using it eaither cause it is worthless. The very fact you aren't using it either only back up what I stated. So yes, you are the proof that it does not work. No one said it's impossible. It is stupid, but not impossible. An MMO where people only trade or sell with people they group with. The only alternative is to just randomly yell out you need X material while grinding or go play hide and seek at the ward. Yet some how this is suppose to work out in 3 months down the road.

The people who have friends or have formed group are lucky. Those poor souls who don't have any....good luck.

Edited, Oct 11th 2010 1:59am by doubleax
#48 Oct 11 2010 at 12:41 AM Rating: Decent
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I don't think Square expects you to level every craft at the same time. I believe they want you to get in touch with other crafters to find the mats you're looking for or buy them.

Where they ****** up though is not having a reliable way of buying the mats you want like an auction house or searchable retainers which I believe they said they were addressing if I'm not mistaken.
#49 Oct 11 2010 at 12:58 AM Rating: Excellent
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CupDeNoodles wrote:
I don't think Square expects you to level every craft at the same time. I believe they want you to get in touch with other crafters to find the mats you're looking for or buy them.

Where they @#%^ed up though is not having a reliable way of buying the mats you want like an auction house or searchable retainers which I believe they said they were addressing if I'm not mistaken.


Agreed, the crafting system works...their TRADING system fails which is the heart of the problem.

Its completely self contradictory to make a casual game with timed content like leves to help players who can only play 1 hour a day... And have the economy run on a broken retainer system that takes several hours to find what you need.



Edited, Oct 11th 2010 3:04am by ixion13

Edited, Oct 11th 2010 3:05am by ixion13
#50 Oct 11 2010 at 1:15 AM Rating: Good
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I kinda of like the idea where higher tier mat is required, at least in this case i would not see ppl skilling up by make 50 weapons to flood the market.
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#51 Oct 11 2010 at 1:25 AM Rating: Decent
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doubleax wrote:
I guess you didn't read. I'm not using it eaither cause it is worthless. The very fact you aren't using it either only back up what I stated. So yes, you are the proof that it does not work. No one said it's impossible. It is stupid, but not impossible. An MMO where people only trade or sell with people they group with. The only alternative is to just randomly yell out you need X material while grinding or go play hide and seek at the ward. Yet some how this is suppose to work out in 3 months down the road.


I don't think it's worthless. I actually get quite a bit of use out of it because I don't expect it to act as an AH, nor do I try to use it like one. I network with a number of other crafters who I go to if I need a specific material or gear. I'll browse a couple of wards, usually when I'm putting stuff up to sell on my own retainer, but never go looking for anything specific. I usually find a number of different materials that I can use and I stock up on them, sometimes I'll find a piece of gear I can use. But it's foolish to go in there to search for a specific item. It's not an AH, stop trying to use it like one.

doubleax wrote:
The people who have friends or have formed group are lucky. Those poor souls who don't have any....good luck.


Why would someone play an MMO without trying to make any friends? If they're not even gonna bother shouldn't they be playing a single player game?

*edit* Just to add, I read this in another thread:
Vidffxiv wrote:
If you aren't an alchemist, try asking around the weavers guild for anyone who might have the dye or just a piece of the Mesa-red Cotton Cloth for sale. I was very fortunate, as some one was crafting the Mesa-red Cotton Cloth just as I got back from talking with Chuchumu for the first time. I kindly asked if they would trade me a piece, since I needed it for the quest, and they gladly traded it over. (Big thanks to Aislin Delhir on my server for helping me out with the cloth).


If you add an AH, situations like that would occur less and less. Being able to meet someone who has just what you need, or is willing to help you acquire it, and also helping someone else out in the same way is what MMOs are all about for me. I remember when I started playing FFXI. I was leveling in Qufim and after my party split up I found a higher level thief who was in the area farming. He was willing to let me party up with him and he helped me kill leeches until I found Carbuncle's ruby. With crafting as a job in itself, the situation is analogous when you meet someone who is willing to make or help you get materials.

Edited, Oct 11th 2010 3:48am by XelKarin
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