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The Effects of Strength on the BattlefieldFollow

#1 Oct 10 2010 at 1:27 AM Rating: Excellent
During the beta and the first three weeks of live play, I’ve seen many people asking about stats and how they should balance them in order to achieve the maximum balance between accuracy and damage.

Over the weekend I documented 1500 attacks and their consequences in order to help us find a starting point on how these stats directly affect us. The goal is to minimize the guesswork going on, and spread the knowledge of what each stat is doing for you on a detailed level.

This post is still a work in progress, and hopefully over the course of the next several years, I will have the opportunity to document several thousand more actions to grow our understanding of the game mechanics. I welcome any suggestions for new theories to test, new mechanics to investigate, and I especially welcome any help in gathering this information.

Now for information from test number one!

The controls/stats and variables:
For this first test, I am examining what the effects of Strength are on damage, as well as critical hit percentage and Skill Points gained instances per action. For this test, I am using a Physical level 23, Rank 14 Archer. I have no active traits. My stats are as follows:
STR :40*________________ Fire : 16
VIT :40 ________________ Water : 16
DEX :40 ________________ Lightning : 15
INT :16 ________________ Wind : 99
MND :20 ________________ Earth : 15
PIE :16 ________________ Ice : 13
*In part 2 and part 3 of test one, the strength is increased to 60 and then 80 to test the effects on damage, critical hit percentage, and Skill Points gained instances per action. No other stats are changed. Each time strength is increased all gear is repaired to 75% at NPC repair vendor, which is where it began the testing.

My gear is as follows:
Maple Longbow
Warped Arrow
Hempen Beret
Sheepskin Harness
Rope Belt
Hempen Work Gloves +1
Cotton Breeches
Hermes Shoes
Well-worn Undershirt
Well-worn Halftights

The test mobs were the Thistletail Marmot in the North Forest outside of Gridania, specifically the ones located in the large open space near the Coerthas zone. For control purposes, I only used Light Shot ability once engaged.

The Results:

Average level of Thistletail Marmot -
* The 300 shots at 40 STR had an average target exp of 88.65
* The 300 shots at 60 STR had an average target exp of 88.84
* The 300 shots at 80 STR had an average target exp of 84.34
The Thistletail Marmots in this camp give 42, 64, 84, 105, or 116 exp. These 3 tests all fell right around the same amount, so target level most likely played a minimal role in affecting the results.

Accuracy –
* 40 STR gave a result of 108 misses and 192 hits, for an accuracy of 64%
* 60 STR gave a result of 89 misses and 211 hits, for an accuracy of 70.33%
* 80 STR gave a result of 93 misses and 207 hits, for an accuracy of 69%
So I am fairly certain that STR has no effect on Accuracy, which we all assumed already. In the next set of tests I will post on DEX this topic will be revisited.

Damage –
* 40 STR gave a result of 124.16 damage per hit.
* 60 STR gave a result of 137.37 damage per hit, which was a 10.64% increase over the original test.
* 80 STR gave a result of 151.99 damage per hit, which was a 22.41% increase over the original test.
In order to keep from leveling up and skewing the data, I could not test at 50 STR or 70 STR. I will be conducting those tests soon once I hit a higher level to gain more insight on this particular experiment. However, it does appear that the cap on diminishing returns for STR is very high, at least at lower levels.

Critical Hit Rate –
* At 40 STR, 10.94% of successful attacks were critical hits.
* At 60 STR, 9.95% of successful attacks were critical hits.
* At 80 STR, 10.63% of successful attacks were critical hits.
So it appears, as expected, that critical hit percentage is not affected by STR. In the next set of tests I will post on DEX this topic will be revisited.

Skill Points Gained per Attack –
* At 40 STR, 28.65% of successful attacks resulted in SP gain.
* At 60 STR, 24.17% of successful attack resulted in SP gain.
* At 80 STR, 32.85% of successful attacks resulted in SP gain.
It does not appear that STR or the higher damage numbers affected SP gain in any way. In the next set of tests I will post on DEX this topic will be revisited.
This data is no longer relevant due to game mechanics changes.


Critical Damage Increase –
* At 40 STR, non-critical attacks hit for 122.1 damage per hit and critical attacks hit for 140.9 damage per hit, which is a 15.4% increase in damage on critical hits.
* At 60 STR, non-critical attacks hit for 135.22 damage per hit and critical attacks hit for 156.9 damage per hit, which is a 16.03% increase in damage on critical hits.
* At 80 STR, non-critical attacks hit for 149.71 damage per hit and critical attacks hit for 171.23 damage per hit, which is a 14.37% increase in damage on critical hits.
It does not appear that STR affected the critical hit damage bonus, which seems to be fixed at about 15%.

I will be posting a write-up on DEX later today. As mentioned before, any constructive criticism is appreciated.

Edited, Oct 11th 2010 11:11pm by Yabusame

Edited, Apr 11th 2011 8:28pm by Yabusame
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#2 Oct 10 2010 at 1:32 AM Rating: Excellent
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nice start. already providing some food for thought. thanks!
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#3 Oct 10 2010 at 1:34 AM Rating: Good
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Yes! This is the sort of constructive **** an MMO forum is made for. I eagerly await the DEX tests, as I have a very cynical opinion of FFXIV's accuracy rolls.
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#4 Oct 10 2010 at 2:24 AM Rating: Good
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Is there some sort of pharser out there? If there is I dont mind putting it on while I grind and giving you the data.
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#5 Oct 10 2010 at 4:27 AM Rating: Default
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Yabusame wrote:
Skill Points Gained per Attack –
* At 40 STR, 28.65% of successful attacks resulted in SP gain.
* At 60 STR, 24.17% of successful attack resulted in SP gain.
* At 80 STR, 32.85% of successful attacks resulted in SP gain.
It does not appear that STR or the higher damage numbers affected SP gain in any way. In the next set of tests I will post on DEX this topic will be revisited.


People should stop testing on Marmots for this, seriously. Testing on something that make your normal damage miserable and it will become utterly apparent.
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#6 Oct 10 2010 at 6:07 AM Rating: Default
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You do realize, if you're testing this on a < rank20+, you're not really getting that 80 strength. Rank can limit your physical stats, it simply just doesn't show you what you're currently capped at.
#7 Oct 10 2010 at 8:13 AM Rating: Excellent
According to this test, your assumption on all the STR not counting is false. It appears that the point of diminishing returns on STR is very high at low lvls. Do some scientific research before refuting mine.
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#8 Oct 10 2010 at 1:40 PM Rating: Good
Added Critical Attack Damage information.
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#9 Oct 10 2010 at 2:55 PM Rating: Decent
what stats are you sacrificing to get your str up if all this is at the same level? also why are you putting critical damage in with str? obviously a critical hit will do more damage than a normal hit regardless of how much str you have.
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#10 Oct 10 2010 at 3:14 PM Rating: Excellent
I posted all relevant information on stats/gear/etc in the OP. I'm not suggesting people only use STR, just testing it's effects on different battle statistics. Actually, DEX looks like it might not be as unimportant as many of us believed, but I'll post more on that later.
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#11 Oct 10 2010 at 3:36 PM Rating: Good
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xthunderblazex wrote:
You do realize, if you're testing this on a < rank20+, you're not really getting that 80 strength. Rank can limit your physical stats, it simply just doesn't show you what you're currently capped at.

Although I have heard a lot of people say this there is just no documented evidence of these caps, nor irrefutable proof that they even exist.

Yabusame wrote:
Actually, DEX looks like it might not be as unimportant as many of us believed, but I'll post more on that later.

I'm also an archer and my gut feeling on this - not backed up by anything except playing 22 ranks of the class - is that the 'accuracy' stat has far more impact on projectile accuracy than DEX does. The game says that DEX affects melee accuracy but if it does it feels like DEX 4 = ACC 1 or less for an archer. This, i believe, is why arrows have their own accuracy ratings - because they are largely unaffected by DEX.

Again, I have no data to back this up, its just a feeling from playing the class awhile and experimenting with stats and different types of ammo.

In your DEX tests, how are you going to account for archer distance/damage/accuracy mechanics? Archers are obviously more accurate from outside melee range; are you going to get someone to tank your targets while you test? I'm just curious.

Also, how are you accounting for possible reductions in weapon stat effectiveness from being over your bow's optimal rank? The maple longbow is r8; you said you are r14. Again, im just curious to see how you're dealing with these variables.

Thanks for the hard work and good testing. I eagerly await your results on the effect of DEX.

Edited, Oct 10th 2010 9:37pm by Timorith
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#12 Oct 10 2010 at 3:43 PM Rating: Decent
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Can you test if higher damage will result in -more- SP, rather than a higher SP gain rate? I'm pretty sure that higher damage results in higher SP gained, so I just want to make sure.
#13 Oct 10 2010 at 4:06 PM Rating: Good
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Timorith wrote:
Also, how are you accounting for possible reductions in weapon stat effectiveness from being over your bow's optimal rank? The maple longbow is r8; you said you are r14. Again, im just curious to see how you're dealing with these variables.

"Optimal rank" refers to the rank at which a weapon/armor offers 100% effectiveness on equip. If you are at or above the optimal rank, a weapon that grants 61 ATK, for example, will deliver the full 61ATK. On the other hand, equipping the same weapon below its optimal rank will deliver only a portion of the full amount.

It is similar to level-synced equipment in FFXI: the stats will slowly increase as you approach optimal rank, but nothing is lost after you've surpassed it.


Edited, Oct 10th 2010 6:07pm by Almalexia
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#14 Oct 10 2010 at 4:09 PM Rating: Decent
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There is a soft cap.

R20 Armorer

65 points of Vit
-Raised to 71
-Max Hp increase

71 points of Vit
-Raised to 80
-Max Hp increase

80 points of Vit
-raised to 81
-very slight hp increase

81 Points of Vit
-raised to 82
-no max hp gain

did this 30 seconds ago
#15 Oct 10 2010 at 4:11 PM Rating: Good
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Almalexia wrote:
It is similar to level-synced equipment in FFXI: the stats will slowly increase as you approach optimal rank, but nothing is lost after you've surpassed it.
Is this true? Would you mind linking a source? I quit XI long before level-sync stuff was introduced so I'm unfamiliar with that concept. Thanks for the clarification; i thought I understood what optimal rank meant.
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#16 Oct 10 2010 at 4:35 PM Rating: Excellent
Timorith wrote:
In your DEX tests, how are you going to account for archer distance/damage/accuracy mechanics? Archers are obviously more accurate from outside melee range; are you going to get someone to tank your targets while you test? I'm just curious.

Also, how are you accounting for possible reductions in weapon stat effectiveness from being over your bow's optimal rank? The maple longbow is r8; you said you are r14. Again, im just curious to see how you're dealing with these variables.

Thanks for the hard work and good testing. I eagerly await your results on the effect of DEX.


I have not yet begun testing distance bonuses/penalties, all the shots are fired from hand-to-hand range. That is something I will consider testing in the future however.

I also am not worried about damage differences between bows and arrows yet, but I definitely plan on testing this soon. Right now I just want to figure out the six base stats. I'm just starting to lay a foundation for future testing at the moment.

I appreciate the support, it makes the grinding easier knowing people care.

Aristio wrote:
Can you test if higher damage will result in -more- SP, rather than a higher SP gain rate? I'm pretty sure that higher damage results in higher SP gained, so I just want to make sure.


Good suggestion. I do have all of the SP totals from each action, so I will post this later tonight. I have to go to a work event right now though, so it'll be pretty late.

More updates soon.
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#17 Oct 10 2010 at 8:45 PM Rating: Good
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Wow. Keep up the good work! Thank you for putting in the time and effort to do this. It is greatly appreciated. The whole DEX vs ACC thing for an archer is probably the most important thing to understand as an archer. I also am an archer, and would be interested in the results.
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#18 Oct 10 2010 at 9:05 PM Rating: Good
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this thread ROCKS! *stands up and claps*
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#19 Oct 10 2010 at 9:56 PM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
Is this true? Would you mind linking a source? I quit XI long before level-sync stuff was introduced so I'm unfamiliar with that concept. Thanks for the clarification; i thought I understood what optimal rank meant.

This thread on BG shows the the effect on a CON from rank 1-10, using 3 different weapons for reference.

Edited, Oct 10th 2010 11:56pm by Almalexia
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#20 Oct 10 2010 at 10:50 PM Rating: Good
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Almalexia wrote:
This thread on BG shows the the effect on a CON from rank 1-10, using 3 different weapons for reference.
Excellent, thanks a lot. I was completely misinformed about the effects of Optimal Rank.


Edited, Oct 11th 2010 4:51am by Timorith
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#21 Oct 10 2010 at 11:13 PM Rating: Good
Aristio wrote:
Can you test if higher damage will result in -more- SP, rather than a higher SP gain rate? I'm pretty sure that higher damage results in higher SP gained, so I just want to make sure.


In this test, SP gain ranged from about 20-45 on all three parts of the test (40, 60, and 80 STR), so it appears that dmg does not affect amount of SP either.
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#22 Oct 11 2010 at 7:31 AM Rating: Excellent
This morning I was thinking about the SP relationship to damage, and although these initial tests indicate no correlation, I just don't feel right about that, so I'm going to do more testing on that as well.

I spent 5 minutes throwing rocks at targets, and received very small amounts of SP for hits all under 10. There has to be some relationship, I just don't know what it is yet. I'll figure it out after I finish typing up info on DEX...which I'm sorry isn't quite done yet...RL keeps getting in the way...hopefully this afternoon I'll have a few free minutes.
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#23 Oct 11 2010 at 8:02 AM Rating: Excellent
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Thank you for the goodwork. I signed up just to give a heart felt thanks in the work! Just for the records, this is the most 'productive' work in here (sick of QQ threads) xD
#24 Oct 11 2010 at 8:26 AM Rating: Good
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{Excuse me...} where can I find a parser?
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#25 Oct 11 2010 at 10:59 AM Rating: Decent
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TaalAzura wrote:
There is a soft cap.

R20 Armorer

65 points of Vit
-Raised to 71
-Max Hp increase

71 points of Vit
-Raised to 80
-Max Hp increase

80 points of Vit
-raised to 81
-very slight hp increase

81 Points of Vit
-raised to 82
-no max hp gain

did this 30 seconds ago


The OP only tested 80 STR on a lvl 22 Archer, so he likely didn't hit the softcap you did.

He didn't say there was no cap, he said it was very high (relatively).
#26 Oct 11 2010 at 11:24 AM Rating: Good
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Enscheff wrote:


The OP only tested 80 STR on a lvl 22 Archer, so he likely didn't hit the softcap you did.

He didn't say there was no cap, he said it was very high (relatively).


Says rank 14 Archer in original post.

Quote:
For this test, I am using a Physical level 23, Rank 14 Archer. I have no active traits.


Edited, Oct 11th 2010 1:25pm by sylph19
#27 Oct 11 2010 at 11:33 AM Rating: Good
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Nice work OP, keep it up!
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#28 Oct 11 2010 at 11:46 AM Rating: Decent
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Enscheff wrote:

The OP only tested 80 STR on a lvl 22 Archer, so he likely didn't hit the softcap you did.

He didn't say there was no cap, he said it was very high (relatively).

You are thinking of someone who replied to the OP (up above) who mentioned they were a 22 Archer.


Back on topic: Great job with the testing. I really don't see any holes in your methods. Seems well thought out, good job.

The only problem I see may be in the area of DEX and ACC testing. I'm sure you will get an idea of how these stats affect characters regardless of whether or not a ranged or melee weapon is used; however, testing with a ranged weapon may make the results less apparent for melee weapons as I am sure DEX impacts melee weapons more so than ranged. It just seems DEX and ACC testing would need to be tested independantly in terms of Melee and Ranged because ranged weapons have a few factors that are in effect that probably need to be considered.

This is my only concern so far, but I'll wait for the results and see what you come up with. Again, good work!

P.S. I eagerly await your PIETY results, lol.

Edited, Oct 11th 2010 12:56pm by Raionn
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#29 Oct 11 2010 at 11:56 AM Rating: Default
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Doesn't distance greatly affect the damage/accuracy of an archer as well? Unless all the shots were at truely random distances / the same distance every time, the data is kind of skewed.
#30 Oct 11 2010 at 12:01 PM Rating: Good
he said he would be testing archer from melee range so the data will be as consistant as it can be.
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#31 Oct 11 2010 at 12:12 PM Rating: Excellent
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Excellent!! Thank you very much.

We are all waiting im-patiently for your DEX results! *grin*
#32 Oct 11 2010 at 3:46 PM Rating: Good
MajidahSihaam wrote:
{Excuse me...} where can I find a parser?


No parser...part of the reason this is taking forever. I printed up a spreadsheet in excel, and entered in each shot, how much dmg or if it missed, whether it was critical or not, if I gained SP and how much, and how much exp was gained per mob.

BTW, I love it that when my Archer crits, he shoots the bow sideways. KILLSHOT!
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#33 Oct 11 2010 at 4:01 PM Rating: Decent
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Yabusame wrote:
BTW, I love it that when my Archer crits, he shoots the bow sideways. KILLSHOT!
x1000. She SCREAMS too, like 'YAAAAA!' then the screen shakes when the shot connects. Its pretty **** awesome. Wait until you get Multishot.

I really like that the animations are varied from action to action, yet generally the same between races so that you don't feel you missed out on seeing your character doing something cool - which was the case in XI.


Edited, Oct 11th 2010 10:03pm by Timorith
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#34 Oct 11 2010 at 9:13 PM Rating: Excellent
Added Average level of Thistletail Marmot data.

My wife is in bed, I don't work early tomorrow, and I swear, I'm done crunching all the numbers for the dex testing. I'm finishing typing it right now, should be done around midnight. I promise. So sorry for the delay.
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#35 Oct 11 2010 at 9:16 PM Rating: Excellent
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Yabusame wrote:
Added Average level of Thistletail Marmot data.

My wife is in bed, I don't work early tomorrow, and I swear, I'm done crunching all the numbers for the dex testing. I'm finishing typing it right now, should be done around midnight. I promise. So sorry for the delay.


Yes you better apologize. How dare you not have the data ready now! Just kidding of course, us lazy folks really appreciate the time you're putting into these tests. Might you at some point try and test the Accuracy stat from gear to gauge how effective each point is? It really seems gear helps way more than stats do.
#36 Oct 11 2010 at 9:17 PM Rating: Excellent
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Be sure to compress all your data in the end and post it. It would make for an excellent sticky, if ZAM does that sort of thing with fantastic user posts.
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#37 Oct 11 2010 at 9:23 PM Rating: Good
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what an awesome thread. Thanks OP. I look forward to the results.
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#38 Oct 11 2010 at 10:04 PM Rating: Good
Thanks for the support, I put DEX in a separate thread, to make it easier to find the different info. This thread will continue getting updates as well.

I will look into gear testing when I have a decent grasp on the basic six stats, and I agree that it will be a great test.
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#39 Nov 03 2010 at 9:57 AM Rating: Decent
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To get the most accurate results you'll want to reset the same mob over and over. Also ensure all hits are non-side/non-rear attacks (any testing to see the influence of this?). Time consuming? Yes. Do I have the patience for it? Nope sorry =P

I'm all for number crunching, but data harvesting isn't my thing heheh
#40 Nov 03 2010 at 10:17 AM Rating: Decent
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I belive there is a topic in the MRD forum discussing STR and how it appears to have a huge impact on ACC. Not sure if it applies to just MRD, but its something to keep in mind.
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