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Go Back to WoW!!Follow

#1 Oct 11 2010 at 6:54 AM Rating: Decent
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Seems to be the prefered rotort to any negative post about FFXIV.

"If you don't like FFXIV leave, go back to WoW."

Which is kinda stupid really, how would you know they even have ever played WoW. Maybe you can say, "Go back to FFXI" instead? or "Go back to DDO"...

That would actually make more sense seeing as those are closer in popularity to this game. The WoW xpac in december will most likely sell more copies the fist week than FFXIV will ever sell in it's lifespan. For that matter it will like sell more copies on opening night than FFXIV will ever sell.

Saying "If you don't like FFXIV leave, go back to WoW." really a bit like saying,

"If you don't like living in Fargo, Go back to New York!!"
#2 Oct 11 2010 at 7:05 AM Rating: Good
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Well I've always considered "Go to WoW" being the MMO equivalent of "Go to ****".
#3 Oct 11 2010 at 7:08 AM Rating: Decent
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Vawn43 wrote:
Well I've always considered "Go to WoW" being the MMO equivalent of "Go to ****".

**** is where all the strippers, whores, and drugs are....
#4 Oct 11 2010 at 7:14 AM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
**** is where all the strippers, whores, and drugs are....


Angel chicks are hotter, though.
#5 Oct 11 2010 at 7:16 AM Rating: Good
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If you don't like FFXIV you can go wherever you do like to go but why do you need to stay here and troll?

As I mentioned in another thread, if you don't like a restaurant then go to another which you do like, don't stay at the door of the first with a plaque saying how crap the food is. This will only lead you to be hungry.
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#6 Oct 11 2010 at 7:16 AM Rating: Decent
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RustyMcDaggers wrote:
Quote:
**** is where all the strippers, whores, and drugs are....


Angel chicks are hotter, though.



Demon chicks do more.
#7 Oct 11 2010 at 7:36 AM Rating: Good
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An angel chick..... and a demon chick..... covered in Jello.

#8 Oct 11 2010 at 7:37 AM Rating: Decent
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I guess what it comes to is, you marry the angel and cheat on her with the demon?
#9 Oct 11 2010 at 7:42 AM Rating: Good
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M0RZA wrote:
An angel chick..... and a demon chick..... covered in Jello.



KristoFurwalken wrote:
I guess what it comes to is, you marry the angel and cheat on her with the demon?

Oh I'm sure you can find some hentai about this...::opens google::
#10mitmystria, Posted: Oct 11 2010 at 7:45 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) trolls beat off reading this.
#11 Oct 11 2010 at 7:50 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Oh I'm sure you can find some hentai about this...::opens google::


These ideas would of made the film 'Angels & Demons' so much better. But then again... seeing Tom Hanks getting his freak on... perhaps not!

#12 Oct 11 2010 at 8:14 AM Rating: Default
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M0RZA wrote:
Quote:
Oh I'm sure you can find some hentai about this...::opens google::


These ideas would of made the film 'Angels & Demons' so much better. But then again... seeing Tom Hanks getting his freak on... perhaps not!


AHHHH MY MIND'S EYE!!!!!! IT BURNS!!!!
#13 Oct 11 2010 at 11:23 AM Rating: Excellent
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If everyone who had a negative thought about the game left without making remarks, feedback, or complaints the servers would be very under populated and SE would not know what to do to change the downward spiral. You can't sit back and assume they understand where the issues are. They obviously thought the game was a 1.0 product if they took my money.

******** and complaining from countless thousands daily in WoW forums and the fact that the Devs listen and respond to it is why Blizzard has a massive unstoppable game in the mmo sector.

Why on Earth SE brings Tanaka and his translator who is constantly searching for English words to conventions around the world is beyond me. There should be a NA team at NA events, EU team at EU events, etc. You hire a fast talking young guy with a great personality to hype up the product and constantly spam twitter and forums for feedback. ****, even AION had this right with their English Team. I hated that game but you could read daily their topics and input/feed back.

The face of FF is an older guy whom I feel immediately is out of touch with what I want, doesn't speak my language, and I know will never read anything I say...that is if they had an actual official forum with a feedback section but they don't mainly because they don't want negative remarks ANYWHERE on their website.

My hope at this point that the board who only has Yen on their mind will appoint a liaison to go in and give Tanaka a kick in his *** and give the players what they want and not what he wants the players to have.

Edited, Oct 11th 2010 1:27pm by Twolow24
#14 Oct 11 2010 at 12:03 PM Rating: Decent
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Tanaka seems to have this attitude about his products like, Him and his team are artists creating art. And we should all feel priviledged to be allowed to play it.
#15 Oct 11 2010 at 12:48 PM Rating: Good
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Poor EverQuest, nobody ever says Go Back to EQ! Eventhough, for the majority of players, EQ was their first (and fondest) MMORPG experience. I remember sitting in Felwithe fishing in 1999, thinking this was the coolest thing ever.

#16KristoFurwalken, Posted: Oct 11 2010 at 12:56 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) WTB "Oregon Trail" MMO!
#17 Oct 11 2010 at 1:01 PM Rating: Good
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I for one will never go back to WOW.



Edited, Oct 11th 2010 3:07pm by Brushy
#18 Oct 11 2010 at 1:03 PM Rating: Decent
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Twolow24 wrote:
If everyone who had a negative thought about the game left without making remarks, feedback, or complaints the servers would be very under populated and SE would not know what to do to change the downward spiral. You can't sit back and assume they understand where the issues are. They obviously thought the game was a 1.0 product if they took my money.

I hear SE comes to these forums to read your ******** and moaning. Oh wait.

You're preaching to the wrong crowd.
#19 Oct 11 2010 at 1:06 PM Rating: Good
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SoumaKyou wrote:
Twolow24 wrote:
If everyone who had a negative thought about the game left without making remarks, feedback, or complaints the servers would be very under populated and SE would not know what to do to change the downward spiral. You can't sit back and assume they understand where the issues are. They obviously thought the game was a 1.0 product if they took my money.

I hear SE comes to these forums to read your ******** and moaning. Oh wait.

You're preaching to the wrong crowd.


Yeah, they should be posting on the official Final Fantasy XIV forums...oh wait.
#20 Oct 11 2010 at 1:17 PM Rating: Good
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SE doesn't care about what the players want. They want us to play the way they want and I doubt they will change their attitude about it anytime soon. That is why in every interview, presentation and Q&A before the game was released they always begin with "We want the players to..." instead of "We understand the players want to...". I think if they were to actually do something about this that FFXIV and even FFXI could be on par with WoW. They have the potential they just lack the common sense.
#21 Oct 11 2010 at 1:20 PM Rating: Decent
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ScaryTrees wrote:
SE doesn't care about what the players want. They want us to play the way they want and I doubt they will change their attitude about it anytime soon. That is why in every interview, presentation and Q&A before the game was released they always begin with "We want the players to..." instead of "We understand the players want to...". I think if they were to actually do something about this that FFXIV and even FFXI could be on par with WoW. They have the potential they just lack the common sense.



Good point.
#22 Oct 11 2010 at 2:22 PM Rating: Good
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Where are people who complain about WoW told to go back to?
#23 Oct 11 2010 at 2:46 PM Rating: Decent
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Sonnette wrote:
Where are people who complain about WoW told to go back to?

Back to FFXIV

its just a vicious cycle

Edited, Oct 11th 2010 4:49pm by Perrinshammer
#24 Oct 11 2010 at 3:40 PM Rating: Default
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One thing I will say for Blizzard is that they listen to the MMO community.

The WoW community says, this is getting too hard - i cant handle all these different stats such as fire spell damage, ice spell damage, shadow spell damage. Blizzard says OK - we will make it easy for you - there you go, just 1 spell damage to worry about.

The WoW community says, ah, I hate that my hunter pet has to travel to find a mob that can execute a certain skill to learn it. Blizzard says, sorry we made our game so hard - there you go, now you dont have to do that anymore.

The WoW community says, Ah, raiding is too hard, trying to co-ordinate 40 people in epic battles is just beyond us. Blizzard says, OK, we will cap content at 25 man - that should make it easier.

I could go on and on.

Sometimes, a developer will cater to the lowest common denominator in order to establish broad appeal and sell lots of copies.

Thankfully there are other developers out there who will not seek to please everyone and still make good games that proper gamers like to play.

Before the avalanche of posts flaming me for hating WoW - I loved WoW, just went off it soon after the release of Lich King.
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#25 Oct 11 2010 at 3:46 PM Rating: Good
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HallieXIV wrote:


Sometimes, a developer will cater to the lowest common denominator in order to establish broad appeal and sell lots of copies.

Thankfully there are other developers out there who will not seek to please everyone and still make good games that proper gamers like to play.


If you think that SE is anything other than a profit driven corporation you are completely out to lunch. The way MMO make money is by selling copies, and retaining as many subscribers as possible.

SE isn't some noble charity that graced us with the game "proper gamers" have been crying out for, like some kind of software messiah.

Their goal is to make a game that as many people will buy, and subscribe to as possible. And they didn't do a good job so far.
#26 Oct 11 2010 at 3:58 PM Rating: Decent
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KristoFurwalken wrote:
HallieXIV wrote:


Sometimes, a developer will cater to the lowest common denominator in order to establish broad appeal and sell lots of copies.

Thankfully there are other developers out there who will not seek to please everyone and still make good games that proper gamers like to play.


If you think that SE is anything other than a profit driven corporation you are completely out to lunch. The way MMO make money is by selling copies, and retaining as many subscribers as possible.

SE isn't some noble charity that graced us with the game "proper gamers" have been crying out for, like some kind of software messiah.

Their goal is to make a game that as many people will buy, and subscribe to as possible. And they didn't do a good job so far.


Completely agree with you - but you cant OutWoW WoW.

Anyone trying to enter the MMO market today has to ask themselves a question. Do we make a very accessible game to appeal to a mass audience and try to challenge WoW for the crown, or do we go for a different market not serviced by WoW.

Every challenger that has tried to take on WoW has failed. WoW does what it does very well.

So, SE need to offer a viable alternative to the sort of person who wants to play a differnt type of game. The sort of person who is happy to try and work things out without having a man with a big yellow exclamation mark over his head tell you what to do. The sort of player that actually likes not knowing what they are doing and working it out for themselves, the sort of player who wants to group with friends to level, rather than just at end game.

Regardless of whether SE did a good job or not - the idea was to take a different path to Blizzard. Yes they are here to make money, but these days you dont make money p!ssing in WoW's pool - WoW is just too good at being WoW.
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#27 Oct 11 2010 at 4:02 PM Rating: Good
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I would love to see all the suggestions from "proper gamers".

1) selling items with one button is easy mode. Can you throw in 2-3 more steps every time we vendor something?

2) buying items from players is too easy, can we just not have a way to know who is selling something?

3) Leveling is too easy, can you give us a steeper grind? and maybe sometimes mobs won't even give you XP.



I see tons of people defending this stuff, but I don't recall one person in my years on MMO forums asking for anything like this.
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#28 Oct 11 2010 at 4:07 PM Rating: Decent
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KujaKoF wrote:
I would love to see all the suggestions from "proper gamers".

1) selling items with one button is easy mode. Can you throw in 2-3 more steps every time we vendor something?

2) buying items from players is too easy, can we just not have a way to know who is selling something?

3) Leveling is too easy, can you give us a steeper grind? and maybe sometimes mobs won't even give you XP.



I see tons of people defending this stuff, but I don't recall one person in my years on MMO forums asking for anything like this.


Overriding comment: "Regardless of whether SE did a good job or not"...

But then, using a gamepad vendoring isnt too painful but I understand with a lesser powered machine the lag is problemmatic. You have a point, but it does not invalidate the point of my argument.

SE have tried to implement an alternative to the AH to see if it works - clearly it doesnt, SE have failed and will now have to put an AH in the game. My belief is that this was done to encourage tighter community play but given that the gamers have decided not to do this - it needs changing.

If you want to reach level cap in a week - this certainly isnt the game for you. This is a deliberate decision by SE and players will either love it or hate it. If you want a game where the whole point is endgame - you will never like this. If you want a game where the point is the journey, perhaps you will. I prefer this to reaching cap under 3 months (or even under 2 weeks) in some games.
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#29 Oct 11 2010 at 4:11 PM Rating: Good
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HallieXIV wrote:
KujaKoF wrote:
I would love to see all the suggestions from "proper gamers".

1) selling items with one button is easy mode. Can you throw in 2-3 more steps every time we vendor something?

2) buying items from players is too easy, can we just not have a way to know who is selling something?

3) Leveling is too easy, can you give us a steeper grind? and maybe sometimes mobs won't even give you XP.



I see tons of people defending this stuff, but I don't recall one person in my years on MMO forums asking for anything like this.


If you want to reach level cap in a week - this certainly isnt the game for you. This is a deliberate decision by SE and players will either love it or hate it. If you want a game where the whole point is endgame - you will never like this. If you want a game where the point is the journey, perhaps you will. I prefer this to reaching cap under 3 months (or even under 2 weeks) in some games.


I'm sorry, in a game where there are 7 combat classes, currently fairly watered down compared to current MMO standards, so that we can combine abilities any way we choose, the grind per class should be significantly shorter than the typical MMO grind to cap.
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#30 Oct 11 2010 at 4:15 PM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
SE have tried to implement an alternative to the AH to see if it works - clearly it doesnt, SE have failed and will now have to put an AH in the game. My belief is that this was done to encourage tighter community play but given that the gamers have decided not to do this - it needs changing.


How is browsing for hours in the market place a tighter community?

Interacting directly with players is an alternative to the market place which promotes community, but this can and will happen with or without a retainer market or an ah.
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#31 Oct 11 2010 at 4:17 PM Rating: Decent
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KujaKoF wrote:
HallieXIV wrote:
KujaKoF wrote:
I would love to see all the suggestions from "proper gamers".

1) selling items with one button is easy mode. Can you throw in 2-3 more steps every time we vendor something?

2) buying items from players is too easy, can we just not have a way to know who is selling something?

3) Leveling is too easy, can you give us a steeper grind? and maybe sometimes mobs won't even give you XP.



I see tons of people defending this stuff, but I don't recall one person in my years on MMO forums asking for anything like this.


If you want to reach level cap in a week - this certainly isnt the game for you. This is a deliberate decision by SE and players will either love it or hate it. If you want a game where the whole point is endgame - you will never like this. If you want a game where the point is the journey, perhaps you will. I prefer this to reaching cap under 3 months (or even under 2 weeks) in some games.


I'm sorry, in a game where there are 7 combat classes, currently fairly watered down compared to current MMO standards, so that we can combine abilities any way we choose, the grind per class should be significantly shorter than the typical MMO grind to cap.


That's fine - that is an entirely reasonable opinion and one that I have read in many places. I would ask though that you compare the grind to the FFXI grind. It appears to me to be quite similar. At the end of the day, this is an issue of personal choice. I was never much of an endgame player. I am happier just grouping with friends and playing the game pre-end game. For me, I dont care if it takes 2 or 3 years to reach the cap. For others, it certainly will.

There is such negative connotation with the expression "go back to WoW", but if players prefer that style of game, why not do what they enjoy and play WoW. This is certainly not WoW and some elements will really not appeal to people who prefer the more accessible style of WoW.
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#32 Oct 11 2010 at 4:19 PM Rating: Good
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FFXIV doesn't need to be a WoW killer. But it does need to be a game.

I love the game don't get me wrong. But honestly is it really a game yet?
other than leveling you jobs has anyone fought a real Boss yet? Has the storyline really bein that engrossing.

There isn't a lot of incentive in exploring the world yet. Many sections are locked off and lots of the "cooler" mobs are to hard to fight. People are still in the starting areas and leves aren't getting more are not getting more interesting as you level.

Behests are good but it's dumb they make everyone share it.

I feel they need to put in some instance type of game play. Add a few bosses to fight without having to get 600 players together. Real quests from NPCs outside of leves. The games for what it offers now is very empty.

This has been said before and I'll say it too. The game has a lot of potential but thats all it has right now. SE needs to live up to that potential quickly or their user base will start to wane.

#33 Oct 11 2010 at 4:21 PM Rating: Excellent
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Hugus wrote:
If you don't like FFXIV you can go wherever you do like to go but why do you need to stay here and troll?

As I mentioned in another thread, if you don't like a restaurant then go to another which you do like, don't stay at the door of the first with a plaque saying how crap the food is. This will only lead you to be hungry.


To complete your misplaced analogy, this restaurant has already taken my money for a contract to continually supply me with food.

By not saying that I am disappointed with this food, nothing will change.

I will of course be willing to peruse the menus of other restaurants once my "free" 30 days of this one have finished. But until then, I'm still a paying customer and will say what I like.

Now, I'd like a salad. What's that? I have to open the menu first, then move the cursor down over the "salads" item, click that, then select the salad I'm currently eating, then select the fact that I'd like a new salad, then look at all the other salads I have (even though some of them aren't the ones I want), then choose the salad I'd like, the agree that yes, that is the salad I'd like and oh god I've fallen asleep.
#34 Oct 11 2010 at 4:21 PM Rating: Decent
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KacesofCaitsith wrote:
Quote:
SE have tried to implement an alternative to the AH to see if it works - clearly it doesnt, SE have failed and will now have to put an AH in the game. My belief is that this was done to encourage tighter community play but given that the gamers have decided not to do this - it needs changing.


How is browsing for hours in the market place a tighter community?

Interacting directly with players is an alternative to the market place which promotes community, but this can and will happen with or without a retainer market or an ah.


Agreed - I am somewhat surprised that SE bothered implementing the wards at all given their stated intentions.

That said, the wards with good search functionality is effectively an AH. Sellers offer wares at various prices in a reverse auction and others buy at the lowest price available. Once the search functionality is in (and assuming it works), this will be less painful.

No-one who has spent hours in the wards is going to defend the current system. SE wanted to try it so they did. It failed and now they will have to fix it.
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#35 Oct 11 2010 at 4:23 PM Rating: Good
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HallieXIV wrote:
KujaKoF wrote:
HallieXIV wrote:
KujaKoF wrote:
I would love to see all the suggestions from "proper gamers".

1) selling items with one button is easy mode. Can you throw in 2-3 more steps every time we vendor something?

2) buying items from players is too easy, can we just not have a way to know who is selling something?

3) Leveling is too easy, can you give us a steeper grind? and maybe sometimes mobs won't even give you XP.



I see tons of people defending this stuff, but I don't recall one person in my years on MMO forums asking for anything like this.


If you want to reach level cap in a week - this certainly isnt the game for you. This is a deliberate decision by SE and players will either love it or hate it. If you want a game where the whole point is endgame - you will never like this. If you want a game where the point is the journey, perhaps you will. I prefer this to reaching cap under 3 months (or even under 2 weeks) in some games.


I'm sorry, in a game where there are 7 combat classes, currently fairly watered down compared to current MMO standards, so that we can combine abilities any way we choose, the grind per class should be significantly shorter than the typical MMO grind to cap.


That's fine - that is an entirely reasonable opinion and one that I have read in many places. I would ask though that you compare the grind to the FFXI grind. It appears to me to be quite similar. At the end of the day, this is an issue of personal choice. I was never much of an endgame player. I am happier just grouping with friends and playing the game pre-end game. For me, I dont care if it takes 2 or 3 years to reach the cap. For others, it certainly will.

There is such negative connotation with the expression "go back to WoW", but if players prefer that style of game, why not do what they enjoy and play WoW. This is certainly not WoW and some elements will really not appeal to people who prefer the more accessible style of WoW.



Thats fair, some games are about the grind, some games are about the endgame. I don't consider 14 about the journey at all, because there isnt all that much to do along the way. Its basically grind with leves every other day. Leves are pretty unfulfilling, take almost no time, and offer little XP.
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#36 Oct 11 2010 at 4:26 PM Rating: Good
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HallieXIV wrote:
[quote=KristoFurwalken][quote=HallieXIV]



Every challenger that has tried to take on WoW has failed. WoW does what it does very well.

So, SE need to offer a viable alternative to the sort of person who wants to play a differnt type of game. The sort of person who is happy to try and work things out without having a man with a big yellow exclamation mark over his head tell you what to do. The sort of player that actually likes not knowing what they are doing and working it out for themselves, the sort of player who wants to group with friends to level, rather than just at end game.

Regardless of whether SE did a good job or not - the idea was to take a different path to Blizzard. Yes they are here to make money, but these days you dont make money p!ssing in WoW's pool - WoW is just too good at being WoW.


Rate up, because you said this very well. I did a paper for my masters on MMO economic markets, and I can tell you that this is very true. At this point no one is going to try and beat Blizzard. Any developer has to find a niche market to steal enough of the customers to make a profit. WoW will go after the common every-day "casual" gamer and get millions to subscribe. SE is going to go after a much smaller portion of the gamer pool in order to be profitable. I think their model was probably to get a very high percent of the FFXI playerbase (maybe 70%) and a very small percent of the WoW playerbase (1-3%) to move to FFXIV. They are counting on the game to attract the same kind of players that like a lot of challenge in FFXI, as well as the few players in WoW that are ready for a different environment.

Even if SE can get only 1% of the WoW customers to change, that's 130,000 players they didn't used to have. Their problem is (in my opinion) the executives decided to stay on schedule for release and are taking a chance that the infant playerbase will be patient and allow SE to fix the main problems before getting to angry and leaving. This is a big mistake I think, but I hope they are right. The game has tons of potential if they can just fix a few key things.
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#37 Oct 11 2010 at 4:27 PM Rating: Decent
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I dont really notice the grind.

Get together with LS mates - fight some things - get mashed up - these things are fun for me.

As a result, I am enjoying the game. Obviously others are not. If I ever get to a point where I want to spend all of my time alone levelling without thinking, i will go back and play WoW for a while. Horses for Courses and each to their own :-)
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#38 Oct 11 2010 at 4:32 PM Rating: Excellent
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HallieXIV wrote:
I dont really notice the grind.

Get together with LS mates - fight some things - get mashed up - these things are fun for me.

As a result, I am enjoying the game. Obviously others are not. If I ever get to a point where I want to spend all of my time alone levelling without thinking, i will go back and play WoW for a while. Horses for Courses and each to their own :-)


A couple years ago, that might have worked for me too. After playing games that are good at hiding a grind, I don't want to go back to killing things in a circle anymore. I prefer to feel like I'm actually doing something.. Leves were SE's idea for this, they just end too quickly.
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#39 Oct 11 2010 at 4:37 PM Rating: Decent
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This thread has gotten seriously off topic. Let's try to stay focused here people. What medium would be more appropriate, Jello or pudding, for the Angel/Demon battle royal.
#40 Oct 11 2010 at 4:46 PM Rating: Decent
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KujaKoF wrote:
A couple years ago, that might have worked for me too. After playing games that are good at hiding a grind, I don't want to go back to killing things in a circle anymore. I prefer to feel like I'm actually doing something.. Leves were SE's idea for this, they just end too quickly.


Can try to go with a higher difficulty :) Me and 2 LS mate tried a 3 Star (I think) one 2 days ago. We each died at least 4 times, and we thought we couldn't do it. But we tought it out and finished the Leve with 1 minute and 40 second-ish to spare.

That was a fun experience.
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#41 Oct 11 2010 at 4:50 PM Rating: Good
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Increasing difficulty didnt really increase HP that much, It was mainly increasing damage, I wasnt getting any better skillups doing rank 4 stuff than i was rank 2-3.
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#42 Oct 11 2010 at 7:27 PM Rating: Decent
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Hulan wrote:
This thread has gotten seriously off topic. Let's try to stay focused here people. What medium would be more appropriate, Jello or pudding, for the Angel/Demon battle royal.



I vote KY jelly.
#43 Oct 11 2010 at 8:19 PM Rating: Good
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HallieXIV wrote:
Sometimes, a developer will cater to the lowest common denominator in order to establish broad appeal and sell lots of copies.


You do yourself no favors by completely misrepresenting the design intent behind WoW's gameplay changes to make it appear as merely "dumbing down" the game.

For example:

Quote:
The WoW community says, this is getting too hard - i cant handle all these different stats such as fire spell damage, ice spell damage, shadow spell damage. Blizzard says OK - we will make it easy for you - there you go, just 1 spell damage to worry about.


In truth, they abandoned school-specific spell damage boosts in favor of spell power because school-specific spell damage required to much developer time to itemize, mandated whole families of largely redundant gear that differ only in the school of magic damage they boost, greatly complicated gear selection for specs that deal spell damage from multiple schools, and led to a much greater risk of wastage, i.e. items that absolutely no one wants.

Quote:
The WoW community says, ah, I hate that my hunter pet has to travel to find a mob that can execute a certain skill to learn it. Blizzard says, sorry we made our game so hard - there you go, now you dont have to do that anymore.


Actually, the developers decided that it was unfair to hunters to force them to jump through significantly more hoops to learn key abilities than other classes, even other pet classes, had to. They also didn't like that the old system effectively required hunters to waste a stable slot.

And note that when they made hunter pets automatically learn abilities as they level, they also added the pet talent system, which made hunter pet min/maxing more complicated than before. (Since prior to the patch, it was a simple matter of "make sure your pet has the highest available rank of each of it's abilities.")

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The WoW community says, Ah, raiding is too hard, trying to co-ordinate 40 people in epic battles is just beyond us. Blizzard says, OK, we will cap content at 25 man - that should make it easier.


Again, what happened was that Blizzard saw that gathering and organizing 40 people for a raid was so time-consuming that it posed a significant barrier to entry for most people, and thus most players never even got to set foot inside a raid instance. And since their design philosophy is that it's a waste of time to create content that noticeably less than 10% of the player base will ever get to experience, they shifted to a 10- and 25-man raiding style.

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Thankfully there are other developers out there who will not seek to please everyone and still make good games that proper gamers like to play.


Never mind that it's not always about pleasing people for Blizzard. At least two of the three aforementioned gameplay changes were actually EXTREMELY unpopular and heavily criticized at the time - yet Blizzard went through with them anyway because they felt they made the game better. For that matter, several of the gameplay changes going live in 18 hours are unpopular.

Blizzard has their own vision of what they want their game to be, just like SE does.

The difference is that Blizzard's vision focuses more on action; SE seems to want to remake Ultima Online or Star Wars Galaxies, except without a genius like Raph Koster at the helm, and without having learned the big lesson of SWG (namely, when making a game like this, the franchise is your enemy more than it is your friend).
#44 Oct 11 2010 at 8:27 PM Rating: Good
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lol, Hallie. Please never change. You're far too amusing this way.
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#45 Oct 11 2010 at 8:39 PM Rating: Decent
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hexaemeron wrote:
lol, Hallie. Please never change. You're far too amusing this way.


For as long as I disagree - I will do so.

I pretty much disagree with the entire post in response to my comments about WoW but since my karma is already shot due to expressing opinions - I will not do so.

I played (and loved WoW) prior to these changes in particular which were the final nails in the coffin of dumbing down a great game. Thankfully SE are not in a habit of dumbing things down - and I am having fun.

Who is the bigger fool? The fool who happens to enjoy playing FFXIV or the fool who spends his time on boards talking about a game they hate and who pay subscription fees to do it.
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#46 Oct 11 2010 at 8:47 PM Rating: Decent
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Actually, I cant keep quiet (and this is my downfall).

Regarding types of spell damage. You say "greatly complicated gear selection for specs that deal spell damage from multiple schools". This was too difficult for the WoW community was it. I seemed to cope just fine.

Regarding Hunter pets - Hunters had it so incredibly easy to level and could take multiple mobs at once. The learning of greater skills was the only thing that took any time playing the class and stopped the average Hunter from becoming completely OP. But WoW wanted to keep hunters paying subscriptions - so it was made easier.

Regarding 40 man raids - you only have Blizzards explanation, but the fact is, after 40 mans were removed raiding got a lot easier. I dont think this is a co-incidence.

All of your arguments are almost word for word explanations provided by Blizzard. They are hardly going to say "sorry guys, because you are a bunch of idiots we have had to make the game easier to keep the cash rolling in". They are instead going to provide exactly the answers you did and players (like you) are going to keep eating it up!
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#47 Oct 11 2010 at 9:06 PM Rating: Good
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HallieXIV wrote:

Actually, I cant keep quiet (and this is my downfall).

Regarding types of spell damage. You say "greatly complicated gear selection for specs that deal spell damage from multiple schools". This was too difficult for the WoW community was it. I seemed to cope just fine.

Regarding Hunter pets - Hunters had it so incredibly easy to level and could take multiple mobs at once. The learning of greater skills was the only thing that took any time playing the class and stopped the average Hunter from becoming completely OP. But WoW wanted to keep hunters paying subscriptions - so it was made easier.

Regarding 40 man raids - you only have Blizzards explanation, but the fact is, after 40 mans were removed raiding got a lot easier. I dont think this is a co-incidence.

All of your arguments are almost word for word explanations provided by Blizzard. They are hardly going to say "sorry guys, because you are a bunch of idiots we have had to make the game easier to keep the cash rolling in". They are instead going to provide exactly the answers you did and players (like you) are going to keep eating it up!


Just chiming in as another former wow player.

Spell school damage was all merged to just spell power/healing to improve itemization. Instead of having a +shadow item for warlocks, and a + frost one for only mages, they could make 2 slightly different + spellpower items, and players could choose between them. I agree it kinda homogenized gear a bit, but i saw their reasoning. I was however disappointed when they merged spell power and healing power, because it was still all too obvious which gear belonged to which, and wasn't needed. Long story short, they claim to have done it for itemization, and to reduce the amount of niche gear that got DE'd on week 2 of farm status, and because that makes enough sense to me, I believe it.

The hunter move I feel was to correct an overly complicated system, but more importantly I think they wanted to stop every hunter from using the same pets who were considered the best. These days there are still flavor of the month pets that everyone uses due to each race getting its own buff, but within each pet type, they're pretty close. I will again admit that this did homogenize hunters a bit. Personally I liked that this made differentiating yourself as a beastmaster hunter more about skill, and less about running over the world and learning skills.

Raiding, I missed the old 40 man raid days, but I was a huge fan of being able to 10 man stuff. I would have preferred if they had kept in 20 mans and 40s, using 10 mans for tier one, 20s for tier 2, and 40s for tier 3. But I do fully believe that 25 mans allowed them to use more interesting boss mechanics, even though they did run out of ideas again pretty quickly (wotlk bosses were horribly unoriginal).
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