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#1 Oct 11 2010 at 9:14 AM Rating: Excellent
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Before I go any further, no, the title of this thread isn't sarcasm. Also, I know I'm sure my "post count" is too low for anyone to take seriously, so let's set that aside.

I want to have a serious discussion with you all about FFXIV. I want to know things WITHOUT flames, WITHOUT rage, WITHOUT typical internet crap. For the purposes of this discussion, I'm going to throw one thing out the window right off the bat; I don't want to hear anything about WoW in this thread. I don't want comparisons, I don't want "go back to WoW". I don't want WoW mentioned at all with the exception of what I'm about to say.

I want to know what aspect of FFXIV is appealing enough to the players here who aren't jumping ship to keep you playing. I want to know exactly why you find this game fun. I want to understand why you all aren't jumping ship as well, in the face of the overwhelmingly bad press, the bad reviews, then bad personal stories, the bad everything surrounding this game. I want to know if there's a solid reason, then I want it explained.

I'd normally be advocating that reviews are meaningless. There's been a handful of movies in my 30+ years of existence that have gotten horrible reviews which I've seen and said "hey, that wasn't bad at all, I liked it". Not MANY, but a handful. Reviews are there to give you a fair barometer of a game, movie, CD, etc. Obviously mileage varies. I originally didn't read the beta/alpha reports of 14, since it's beta/alpha. Wouldn't give me an accurate idea of the game's plan for the future. I did cancel my original CE preorder because I wasn't financially sure I wanted to pay for the specific extras involved, not because of reviews. I was a fervent believer that 14 would be the solution to my MMO woes, a spiritual successor to 11, which I loved. As such, I didn't realize I'd preordered TWO CE's from two different companies, and thus, I received my CE on release day.

The reviews though, aren't completely meaningless. Like I said above, they should prove to be a barometer of how well the game is doing. If the release product gets high reviews, then typically, the buzz surrounding it is greater. Word of mouth spreads far and wide. People who were on the fence or maybe even oblivious to the game's release end up checking it out. If a game gets a poor review, then the same thing happens, albeit on a more negative scale. In reality, a review can help determine a game's fate. It's just like press for a politician. Just like a performance review at your job. Just like a credit check at the bank.

I've read people on here try to compare 14 with WoW. I've also read everywhere people try to compare anything with WoW. Fine, no problem. Compare it properly though. WoW is a 6 year old juggernaut, and aberration. WoW wasn't expected to do so well. But if one is to compare, let's compare fairly.

Using Gamespot reviews -
Everquest (within first month of release) - 8.4
Asheron's Call (within first month of release) - 8.6
Dark Age of Camelot (within first month of release) - 9.1
EVE Online (within first month of release) - 6.6
(noticing a trend on when they were reviewed? good...not typing that out anymore then)
Star Wars Galaxies - 7.5
Final Fantasy 11 - 8.2
City of Heroes - 8.4
Lineage II - 6.0
Everquest II - 7.8
World of Warcraft - 9.5
Dungeons and Dragons Online - 7.5
Vanguard - 7.5
Lord of the Rings Online - 8.3
Tabula Rasa - 7.5
Age of Conan - 8.5
Warhammer Online - 8.5
Aion - 6.5
Fallen Earth - 6.0
Star Trek Online - 5.5
APB - 6.5
Final Fantasy 14 - 4.0

Every single one of those games was reviewed and given that score within the free play month. Within the FIRST month of it's release. The ONLY aberration in that list is Final Fantasy 11, which we all know was released in the US long after the Japanese release, and first expansion. All of those MMO's listed were massively promoted, long awaited, or in retrospect, considered to be staples of the MMO genre. Two of those MMO's have even failed completely (as in shut down) namely Tabula Rasa and APB, and many others in the list failed due to other reasons after launch, and have had to retool their games in order to stay viable. Examples of that are Age of Conan, DDO, and to a certain extent LOTRO.

So a more adequate comparison based on reviews would be compared like-scored titles, right? WoW is obviously the highest, so comparing it to 14, which is the lowest, doesn't work. Problem is, there's no other title as LOW as 14. I searched Gamespot numerically to find a game that also attained a 4.0 rating. While the genre's are going to be different, I figured I'd be able to compare games that had similar problems at release. Figured if I could also find just ONE game that reviewed low, but later got BETTER, I could use that as an argument to justify 14's potential.

I was wrong.

Games that also ranked in the 4.0 category with 14 are:
Hospital Tycoon
Room Zoom
Blair Witch Volume 3: The Elly Kedward Tale
South Park: Chef's Love Shack
Guns of Icarus
Twin Sector

Catching my drift here? Nothing I've ever even remotely heard of, or played, or WOULD play.

Before I even read these reviews, I installed my CE of 14 and delved into the world of Eorzea. And the problems arose. I won't list them; there's no point. They've been rehashed over and over again on this forum, and many other forums. Graphic stuttering though was one for me, as I barely squeaked past the minimums. So I have 14 to thank for me finally dropping the dime to upgrade my computer. In the end though, my travels in Eorzea (or lack there of), lead me to cancel my subscription before the trial was over. I'm not "done" with the game, not washing my hands of it, just saving my cash. Going to go sit on the fence and see which way the wind blows. Reactivated my FF11 account for the time being. But I will continue to watch developments on 14, and possibly jump back into the land of Eorzea if things are "adjusted".

Point is though, no matter your "fanboi/girl" status, no matter what MMO's you've played or not played, according to the market, and the world, 14 is a failure. It doesn't matter what you PERSONALLY think, the reviews are out there. Reviews are what will be placed in the wiki articles for all to read. Reviews are what the media sites will report. Like it or not, that's the truth. Reviews are also bread and butter for the companies themselves. They're able to slap their scores on ads and claim greatness. SE cannot do that. They don't (so far) have a single positive review to slap on a magazine ad and say "yeah, 14 rocks". They have name recognition, and that's all.

We as fans of the FF series, and the MMO's need to stop the bickering, the backbiting, and the name calling on this and all other forums. If you like the game, and think it's heading in a positive direction, you need to make your pleasure known, and do so without using the ol' "WoW kiddies won't understand" defense. People who are dissatisfied with the game need to stop comparing it to WoW, and stop attacking the few who DO like it, and start writing emails, letters, forums posts to S-E. If you don't let S-E know in the strongest terms possible what's wrong with the game, and what you'd REALISTICALLY like to see changed, they won't change. Then you have to be patient. Give the dev's time to fix it. If a year has gone by, and things haven't changed, then by all means raise ****.

Right now though I'd like to see actual debate as to what the future holds for 14. I'd like it to be a success. I'd like it to be my new MMO home. I'd like to have the same nostalgic feeling about Eorzea as I do when I hear the San d'Orian theme, or wander through the desert of Valkurm, or spit down on people from atop Ru'Aun Gardens. Right now though, we can ALL agree the game needs help. The naysayers and the lovers of 14 are alike in their concerns, you just won't admit it.

Sorry for the tl;dr but I felt it was needed.
#2 Oct 11 2010 at 9:34 AM Rating: Excellent
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I guess the easiest way to explain why I'm enjoying FFXIV is that I think I fit the perfect type of gamer for this game.

I have a fiance, a child, a full time 9-5, I'm in a band and a basketball league. That is to say, I have maybe, MAYBE, 6 hours a week to play. And that is perfect for this game.

The world is gorgeous. People talk about copy/paste, but had I never read a thread about it, I don't think I'd have noticed. ****, I haven't even left Gridania or its immediate surroundings, and I still thinks its beautiful. I can't wait to see the other cities and places.

I just finished up the rank 10 portion of the main storyline, and I REALLY like where it's going. FF games have always drawn me in with their story, and everything I've seen so far says this one is going to do it again, ten fold. I loved the story in XI, but since I was more of a casual player, I never got to experience a large chunk of it. I think with XIV, I'll really get to learn the whole story.

I think the combat is actually fun. The lack of auto attack doesn't bother me. Sure, it makes it kinda tough to chat and fight... but chatting and fighting SHOULD be tough. Plus, fights take all of 40 seconds, so fight a few, then chat.

The crafting classes are pretty cool. I've really been enjoying the fact that I feel like I can level a craft as a main goal, not just a side thing to make money (or, as the case may be, to sink money into).

Basically, all the problems you've read about certainly are problems, but just not as bad as they might seem. And you know what? we're a month in and they've already been fixing stuff. They've not only fixed legitimate bugs, but they've also addressed things that were purely player concern.

I think this game has amazing potential, and I wouldn't keep playing it if I weren't enjoying it now. I can't wait to see how much I enjoy once it really gets going.
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Striveldt

FFXIV: Lancer, Fisher, Culinarian
FFXI: DRK 55, WAR 30, THF 27, DRG 27 (all retired)
WoW: Hunter 70, Warrior 29, Druid 26, Warlock 22, Shaman 19 (all retired)
EQII: Shadowknight 36 (retired)
#3 Oct 11 2010 at 9:36 AM Rating: Decent
You ask us why we still play, well yah the game has problems / issue's / bugs and whatever else. More than we all thought it would have upon release. We all knew that these MMO companies like Blizzard, NCSoft, SE have been battling over the new generation mmo, and i truly believe ffxiv has won this.

I can sit here and say a million things that is wrong with it, but it will get fixed. If you just take the U.S out of the picture, this game will stay alive based on japan's customers alone...:) and they will fix it for them also!

For now, yah okay so we have a version that will take months to fix and update to the proper standards, but i mean, do any of you really think they wont do it? that's just crazy. Rushing their release so they could have some months in before Wow's new expansion, was a hard decision...

but really, so okay! Now i have 5-6 months to play FFXIV like it is. I will take my time. I will explore everything i see of interest, i will get to do alot of things most people dont' when starting a MMO!!!A head start!

I will be able to get any / all crafting up to par with my characters rank. I will be able to do my own repairs. I will have everything learned, understood and mastered. so when they fix the game, and release it for ps3 or whenever they do all this.

i will be the guy with 3million gold, all crafting 20/30+, and my DoW classes to whatever level i got them to! i will be ahead and ready for a surging economy! I will have $$ for their new equipment!! i will be of level for the new instances / area / monsters / quests!!!

and i will be able to do this, because i simply sat down and enjoyed the game as it is! IF anyone has ever learned anything of the final fantasy series, its that it will be well taken care of! and they will never listen to you, as its their product, let them do as they will. You like it play it, if you do not, then don't play it.

Honestly, if i was able to have 4-6 months to enjoy FFXI, and work on everything in game wise, when that game hit the US, i woulda been one of those guy's all the noobies were looking @ and saying "Whatttttttttttttt" "That's pimp".......

So if your not happy and your expections were not meet, im sorry! i was also one of the rather dispointed ones, but that doesnt mean im gonna go on forumns all day, and troll. and cuss and flame!!

as you can see i have not said the game is GODLY either, its either your cup of tee, your it's not!!! You guy's cant sit here everyday, trying to DUNN eachother of why your point is valid, and theirs is not.

All the people who are going to try and change the game, help make it beter, figure it out, map it, ID it, explore it and learn it! then do so, and post some good forumns on those topics, give us your best adventure instead of your worst nightmare.

All the people who are dispointed, hurt, or just hate it! i can understand your rage, but this is not the place! Take your hard earned $$ and try something else that's more to your style atm, thas all!

Good luck to all and Good Journey's, hope to see some in Erozea!


Jade Blackheart
Lvl 20 MRD
Istory
#4 Oct 11 2010 at 9:40 AM Rating: Decent
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Good points. Getting serious with you there's one thing I think people need to come to grips with.

Osarion, Goblin in Disguise wrote:
SE is not working on an AH currently. Even if they were, GMs would have nothing to do with that.


One of the Admins just posted this in another thread. I agree with this. SE will not be implementing an Auction House for FFXIV - at least not any time in the next year. I strongly feel that this game was conceived and designed to be AH-less. From the number of items dropped, to the emphasis on Market Wards, to the limited number of Bazaar slots, to the plentifulness of gil, SE clearly has a different direction for FFXIV's economy and the AH is not part of it.

If people would pause and just make peace with that fact, we could seriously move forward to suggestions that fit within the conceptions SE has for the game. Some sort of Bazaar search would be nice. But not a global search and it would have to be without prices.

Also an idea I had would be a Bazaar 'mode' similar to 'active and passive'. It would instantly bring up a bazaar floating menu for each person highlighted and/or perhaps show some information in the area about what is being sold around you.

Still, this is just the tip of the iceburg. Faceless environments, no feeling of progression, UI lag, no quests... all just add up to a depressing package. It feels more social to me but it could be my server. I like it as a very light-core player.
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#5 Oct 11 2010 at 9:41 AM Rating: Good
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This is, by far, the most rational, scientific, fair post I have seen on these forums in months. I am still on the fence myself, and as such, do not have much to contribute one way or the other myself, but I wanted to throw in my support for this movement towards reasonableness and beg you to stay here and share your Buddhistafa like reasonableness with us.
#6 Oct 11 2010 at 9:43 AM Rating: Good
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striveldt wrote:
I think this game has amazing potential, and I wouldn't keep playing it if I weren't enjoying it now. I can't wait to see how much I enjoy once it really gets going.


This here sums up my feelings as well (thanks striveldt).
#7 Oct 11 2010 at 9:44 AM Rating: Good
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Well thought out, information to back your points, and it's pretty much dead on. People wont like it, but you're right!
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#8 Oct 11 2010 at 9:45 AM Rating: Excellent
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Quality post. I have seen many like it before, and the topic you chose to discuss is covered in many other posts, but your post in particular stands out as a quality platform for a discussion of the reasons behind FFXIV's apparent failure and potential for future resolution.

I would like to say that FFXIV suffers from being manufactured by a company that is huge. In the MMO world, SE is somewhat taboo. FFXI is loved by many, but in a display of some weird cognitive dissonance, SE is hated for their failures in XI. In the general video game world, the FF franchise draws mixed reviews, from doting fanboys to die-hard haters. No one will argue, however, that there isn't excellent production values that go into FF, and, sans the SE name, they probably would be seen as a victory for whatever company produced them. Therein lies my argument, that FFXIV definitely does not deserve to be a 4.0 out of 10, but is definitely a step backwards for the RPG giant SE.

That being said, this game does deserve a fairly low score in comparison to its predecessors. If anyone was around at release of Vanguard, I think that the score should be akin to that bug-ridden horrifying abomination. I did play Vanguard after many fixes, and it was still lackluster, but had definitely improved from the near-constant stream of crashes it had previously. FFXIV looks very, very slick. There is a lot of overhead in doing anything, which sets it starkly apart from its peers. People are not used to a game like FFXIV, as much was already known about FFXI, which shares many similarities in the learning curve. There is a lot of mystery, and that puts people off.

What keeps me going? Hmm, well, firstly, the press has a minimal effect on me. I am not worried about the total lapse of subscriptions. The results of some reviews are almost completely absurd, with my observations above being my belief as to the cause. Mainly, I have a very large group of friends who are playing right now, and they make trying to attain goals very fun. Obviously, I had to start liking crafting to have much of anything to do at this point. Looking forward, I use crafting as a mean to maximize my physical level and also cooperate with my LS mates in creating gear. The storyline is quite interesting, as I have just completed the R15 mission, which really was worth a watch. The interface is buggy, but I successfully (and easily) navigate using a mouse/keyboard combo (I swear! haha). It is a chore to navigate through the menu to do anything, but switching classes and gear is trivial with the right macros. I hate having to sell stuff, but I choke through it because, well, that's an issue they can target and improve, and it would be silly for me to ragequit from that.

I am not sure what the whole point of your post is. You request us to tell you why we want to keep playing, but then make an argument for the importance of reviews. I don't think those two topics correlate in any real way. If I only played because of the hope that other people will play too, that might be the case, but I already have lots of people in my Linkshell and I have lots of things to do... So, well, there you go.
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#9 Oct 11 2010 at 9:46 AM Rating: Decent
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BlueDolphin wrote:
striveldt wrote:
I think this game has amazing potential, and I wouldn't keep playing it if I weren't enjoying it now. I can't wait to see how much I enjoy once it really gets going.


This here sums up my feelings as well (thanks striveldt).


i second this post. i love this game. it fits what i like in a game. and thats not just because im a FF fan, even if it wasnt in the final fantasy series i would pick it up.

opinions are opinions not everyones going to like ffxiv just like not everyone likes wow.
#10 Oct 11 2010 at 9:49 AM Rating: Decent
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I disagree with this. There will more than likely be an AH in the near future. There are already places in town for the AH and icon/signs indicating as such.

...Whoops sorry this was in responce to rikkuotaku post regarding AH.

Edited, Oct 11th 2010 11:51am by ninechars
#11 Oct 11 2010 at 9:51 AM Rating: Good
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I liked the Postman and Waterworld... Actually I really like The Postman alot. I know it's crap, but I love it just the same.

Oh sorry, see you got me on a tangent by mentioning Films and reviews.

What's keeping me in game is that I have very little time to dedicate to it. I still haven't hit Rank 20. I do have most of the Camps tagged but I'm still working on the teleport Crystal thingies (sub-camps?). When I get bored or frustrated I make my way to as many as possible. I've seen some awesome mobs and been 1 shotted quite a few times, but it's refreshing.

Eventually when I get some time I'd like to be at a point where I'm still beneficial to my LS whom I barely know. They all seem like great people, and I've done Behest and killed a few random things with some of them... I just haven't had the time to dedicate to them yet. So when all else fails that's my motivation to keep grinding (ok fine so I really want to get to the R20 mainquest, and the guild quests, and getting guild points, etc...)
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FFXI:Sylph - Perrin 75 Hume THF; Retired (At least from my use any way)
EVE Online:ScraperX; Retired
WAR:IronClaw- Peryn SW;SkullThrone- Grymloc BO; Retired


#12 Oct 11 2010 at 9:51 AM Rating: Good
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widnes wrote:
BlueDolphin wrote:
striveldt wrote:
I think this game has amazing potential, and I wouldn't keep playing it if I weren't enjoying it now. I can't wait to see how much I enjoy once it really gets going.


This here sums up my feelings as well (thanks striveldt).


i second this post. i love this game. it fits what i like in a game. and thats not just because im a FF fan, even if it wasnt in the final fantasy series i would pick it up.

opinions are opinions not everyones going to like ffxiv just like not everyone likes wow.


My own sentiments exactly. It fits my meager playing time, that varies between 30 minutes to 2 hours a day. If later on grinding a combat class xp will be really hard, I could always fall back on crafting classes to get me going.

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#13 Oct 11 2010 at 9:53 AM Rating: Decent
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JadeBlackheart wrote:

I can sit here and say a million things that is wrong with it, but it will get fixed. If you just take the U.S out of the picture, this game will stay alive based on japan's customers alone...:) and they will fix it for them also!


Japanese forums, and reviewers are atm more critical of the game than the Na and EU are. The common sentiment in Japan is that the game was made by Chinese for China, that's a pretty harsh thing in the culture. I can give an American anaolgy but it would be rude, just imagine someone saying "this thing is for <derogatory racial comment>".

#14 Oct 11 2010 at 9:55 AM Rating: Decent
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I'm playing because I spent $80 on it. I was playing various games such as Global Agenda, APB, Vindictus, and Need for Speed World before hand and they all don't live up to my need in a online game just as this one doesn't.

I'm playing it because I spent a lot on it and haven't found a replacement as yet - I'm considering Lego Universe *shudder*

Edited, Oct 11th 2010 11:55am by Twolow24
#15 Oct 11 2010 at 9:59 AM Rating: Decent
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Twolow24 wrote:
I'm playing because I spent $80 on it. I was playing various games such as Global Agenda, APB, Vindictus, and Need for Speed World before hand and they all don't live up to my need in a online game just as this one doesn't.

I'm playing it because I spent a lot on it and haven't found a replacement as yet - I'm considering Lego Universe *shudder*

Edited, Oct 11th 2010 11:55am by Twolow24


Lego Universe actually looks FUN though.
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Final Fantasy XIV: Neithan Turambar, Cactuar Server
Guild Wars 2: Level 80 Guardian Neithan Turambar Jade Quarry Server
WoW: Lvl 85 Shaman Friewyn Black Dragonflight Server (retired)
FFXI: Lvl 75 Dark Knight Neithan (retired many years ago)
LotRO: Lvl 30 Maethros (retired)
#16 Oct 11 2010 at 10:00 AM Rating: Excellent
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PerrinofSylph wrote:
I liked the Postman and Waterworld... Actually I really like The Postman alot. I know it's crap, but I love it just the same.


I'll see your love for The Postman and Waterworld, and raise you my secret campy love for 5th Element. I get looks from people whenever I mention that movie and like in the same sentence.

Erm, back on topic, and to expand a little on my last post, I don't have the time/attention to spend 6+ hours playing MMOs like I used to when I first started playing FFXI, and this game caters to that. I tried other MMOs, but none have really caught my interest like FFXIV has thus far. I liked Aion up until PvP started to matter, and found out I stink at PvP, for instance.

I expect SE will improve on this game, and I look forward to what they do with it. There's tons of potential, it just needs some TLC.
#17 Oct 11 2010 at 10:09 AM Rating: Excellent
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BlueDolphin wrote:
PerrinofSylph wrote:
I liked the Postman and Waterworld... Actually I really like The Postman alot. I know it's crap, but I love it just the same.


I'll see your love for The Postman and Waterworld, and raise you my secret campy love for 5th Element. I get looks from people whenever I mention that movie and like in the same sentence.


5th Element is one of my favorites too.(See my character name below) I also immediately started thinking of how a lot of my favorite movies probably got poor reviews. Also that some movies/games I consider pretty worthless get great reviews. Sports games come to mind there.

As for XIV, I expected **** poor scores because there's still a lot of fixes needed. And there I'm talking about fixes that can be made. Like others have mentioned and I've mentioned in other threads, there's a lot I like about the game. I even enjoyed closed beta. Seeing what it could be in the near future looks promising to me.

"Some" of the other reasons adding to the poor reviews I disagree with. Mainly the complaints that certain things are "missing" and that makes it bad. I like some of the new things SE's trying here.



Edited, Oct 11th 2010 12:15pm by TwistedOwl
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#18 Oct 11 2010 at 10:34 AM Rating: Good
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Reviews are simply published opinions, sometimes of only a single persons experience with the game. With that said, you really have to take it as that. Just because someone, or a lot of people are criticizing something for one reason or another that doesn't mean that the same feeling will hold true with your experience. I read and watch a lot of reviews on a lot of games, but it's only to find out more about them since I couldn't really care any less about their attitude towards it - I don't know these people, they might not like what I like. My six month old son likes sucking on his hand and eating pureed food, neither of which I personally enjoy doing.

The only real difference is that a lot more people will read/hear what they had to say about it compared to what we're all saying every day. Well, there is another major difference in that being the most recent game to show up to the MMO party XIV is expected to deliver the basic "essentials" that we've come to depend on, while at the same time bringing a fresh and worthwhile experience to the table. Problem being is that while the plan is sound, the execution leaves a lot to be desired.

I personally feel that the scoring systems are the fault when it comes to reviews. I enjoy reading and watching other peoples opinions and experiences in these games both before I start playing and during. It lets me know what to expect so when I would normally try to do something, like go to the AH, I already know about people's problems with the alternate system SE has implemented. MMO's should be reviewed as normal but leave the point scoring out of it since it will be constantly updated (XIV isn't going to die any time soon).

A major problem is that everyone is so used to certain features that when they aren't included AND the replacement system fails to operate in either an efficient or a user-friendly manner, people rush to the forums to let their little voices be heard. Add in glaring defects in basic functions of any game and chaos ensues. Most of those games were released when MMO's weren't immensely popular, WoW changed all of that and like it or not every MMO will be compared to it one way or another for a long time to come. Just keep in mind that you are starting over in XIV and SE is trying to create a unique and fresh experience and, in time, will create a tremendously entertaining game for most of us.

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#19 Oct 11 2010 at 10:34 AM Rating: Decent
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I'm too lazy to cut + paste + quote, but I agree with the guy who said this game "as is" is perfect for people with very limited game time. Some weeks I do get a good FFXIV fix in, (10-12 hours of gaming spread across 3-4 gaming sessions at 3-4 hours a clip), but other weeks I'm lucky if I get 4-6 hours of game time for the week. One week RL allows me to be a core / hardcore FFXIV player, the next RL barely allows me to log on.

I find that during longer play sessions, I (like many others) over analyze the game and put it's mechanics and systems under a microscope. That's when I get bored / burnt-out / frustrated / angy at SE. As it stands right now, the whole is not greater than the sum of it's parts. There are a lot of things in game that don't work as intended, need improvement, or are just fundamentally flawed.

That being said, when I log-on for a casual play session, there are parts of the game that are a lot of fun in short bursts. With limited play time, I find myself avoiding broken game mechanics, systems, or time sinks (like endlessly searching Market Wards for cutting edge weapons / armor). As a function of limited play-time, I am forced to walk away from the frustrating parts of the game and do something else because I don't want to spend my limited play-time being miserable.

Invariably, I find myself stumbling into something enjoyable to do in game. Some people hit a wall and bash their heads against it until they get through. Others just walk around it and find another way to "progress" and have fun.
I find that my game time is much more enjoyable this way.


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#20 Oct 11 2010 at 10:37 AM Rating: Default
11 posts
I have yet to find an unbiased critic.

Most are payed to say what they say, or give bad reviews because they weren't payed for it.

Propaganda is fun!
#21 Oct 11 2010 at 10:51 AM Rating: Good
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Good responses so far, and it's nice to see people sticking to the rules I threw down. I usually don't expect people on the internet to FOLLOW any sort of rules, but it's good to see people doing it! :P

Let me clarify one thing that was mentioned earlier; The purpose of putting the review information in my original post is two-fold.

A: People have been throwing the reviews around as proof the game is flawed and dying, and people have been throwing the reviews around to show that people don't get it and the game is fine and dandy and the reviews are wrong.

B: Reviews directly tie into an important thing about MMO's: revenue.

I'll use an awesome example of why they're important that is relevant to this situation. Who here watched Final Fantasy: The Spirits Within?

The reviews called it a failure. Rotten Tomatoes holds it at 43%, with the negatives higher than the positives. It was considered a box office bomb. It cost Square a large amount of money, almost bankrupt the company, killed the motion picture side of Square, and almost lost them the merger with Enix. I, and many others, thought the movie was good. Not OMFGAMAZING, but quite good. Reviews said otherwise. People said "eh, I'll rent it", instead of going to the theater, and pumping up the box office.

Now, if FFXIV continues to get negative reviews which are admittedly deserved to a certain extent, that affects the people like myself who want to see the game succeed.

It looks like that thus far the majority of people still playing are the ones who are time limited, and want to have a game they can pop into, play for a bit, and pop out while still making forward progress with their character. That was the detracting side to FFXI, that it looks like SE was trying to run away from. FFXI in it's heyday was all about timesink. I remember a point in my early FFXI career where I spent quite literally one entire month logging in, putting up my LFP flag, and going AFK in Jeuno, checking my chat log every 30 min to see if I'd gotten a tell for a party. I was a THF at the time, and THF's were going through the period where PT's were learning to RNG burn or MNK burn, and THF's situational DD requirements weren't desired. Tried forming many a PT only for people to say "Sorry, looking for a RNG burn" or "I can't, I'm in a set PT". So an entire month I did nothing on my character to progress. I'm sure there's plenty of other stories like this out there.

The problem with S-E's approach though is, the "time-limited" player isn't their key demographic when it comes to the long term revenue stream they'll need to support two MMO's. They'll keep the "time-limited" players, simply because of their status. They need to retain the "everyday" players, the ones who either are fortunate enough to have tons of time to play all day every day, or go out of their way to play as much as possible. They're the most vocal about changes, because they play the most, and act in many ways as unpaid testers for the game. All MMO's rely on this kind of fanbase, simply because they are the ones who will test every equipment combo, run parses and spreadsheets, and identify potential flaws in the balance and form of the gameplay. This input then goes into patches and bugfixes, and sometimes into direct modifications in the game itself, which then attracts new customers or entices back previous customers, which in turn makes more money.

I hate to reduce a simple game to that. Simple fact is, economies make the world run. With the dollar at an alltime low against the yen, it makes things complex. That's most likely why we see the odd price cost of 14's service. They have to get more dollars to get the equivalent amount of yen they need to keep things running. Not to mention S-E most likely had to hire a large amount of people to run a new MMO.
#22spence81, Posted: Oct 11 2010 at 10:56 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Does anyone else think about poo? I have this problem in that I keep thinking about poo all day long.
#23 Oct 11 2010 at 11:00 AM Rating: Good
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First I should state, I consider myself to generally be a critic of the game. I expected a lot when it was released, and as such I have only myself to blame for wanting it to be much better than it is. \

Having said that while I endeavor to persevere with what I have to work with. I must say that for people who like crafting this game is a crafter's dream. As has been hashed a million times the menu system is tedious. The fact that there is no way to store recipes is a distraction, but coming from FFXI nothing I am not used to. I play on a 2 monitor system which allows me to have a recipe website at my fingertips while I play in the other window (this I expect is something they will address at some point as it will be pretty inconvenient for PS3 players)

I like to craft though, so I have learned to deal with the system as it is. I like the fact that I can perform any craft simply by changing tools. I can see where at PS3 release someone who has their levels up enough (interdependency is somewhat of a pain I admit) to craft lvl 10-20 weapons / armor / craft tools will clean up, particularly if there is a system in place to categorically sell your items

-Teeg

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#24 Oct 11 2010 at 11:15 AM Rating: Good
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I got my copy this weekend and only played for 3 days (Friday, Saturday and Sunday). So far, these are the things on my mind about this game:
(btw, I`m a THM, miner, botanist, tried BS but I`m dropping that for something else)


- First few hours I struggled to kill any mob. Used to others MMOs, this was quite diferent, a lot of clikcs, a lot of enters, a lot of lag, cone of fire too small, circling strafe too painful to do. Died several times on the few first leves. After the third or fourth leve I got a grip of it and I`m dying a lot less. Of course, raising vitality helped a lot.

- Healing is a pain. I read that is easier with macros, would have to try that.

- The way mobs and aggro work baffles me. Maybe when you get higher in ranks it will have some sort of logic, but so far, it seens quite random. And this can turnout to be a real problem if not adressed quick. SE is forming bad endgame players with that.

- I like the way gathering works. I tried miner and botanist and liked both. Dont think I will try fisher, since in every game, fishing is a pain. Besides, 2 gatherings are enough for now.

- I think the game could clarify more some stuffs. Like where are the lvl 1 weapons for each class. It took my quite some time to look at every merchant at Uldah to find the botanist weapon. Though miner weapon was easy, just went to the guild. I wonder why do I have to go around the gate to get out of Uldah if there`s a friggin gate. Can`t it just be opened? Sometimes I think the devs made it on purpose.

- Main quest was nice. Too bad it was too short.

- So far, not liking the way buying/selling from/to other person works. Reminds me too much of Ragnarok where the charact would have a personal vendor and you had to let your character online when you wanted to sell anything. IMO, its a bad thing if you cant do your quests/whatever while your things are on the market.Scrap that. Just learned about retainers and wards. I think it might not be a bad idea at all. I think they took the idea of merchants from Ragnarok and evolved and expanded it. In the end, it can be pretty cool. To be honest, when I left Ragnarok to play FFXI and, after, WoW, I thought AH was a strange concept, but more appealing to the masses.

- I liked the way the leves are ranked, but I didnt liked the number of it. I think 15 of it would be better, but I can live with 8.

- I only tried Blacksmithing, and am willing to try other professions, but Im getting the feel that crafting stuff is really time consuming and way harder than it should be. Maybe I`m wrong. Will get back to that after I try others professions.

- I think its too hard to rank equipment comparatively. Its not a concern right now, but when you get at the endgame, it probably will be.

- PvP. Is there any?

- Lag. For me, too many things are lagged. I cast something, it takes a while to take effect after the cast end. I get at a place, it takes sometimes more than 1 minute to load every person in the area. Even to cross a freaking door, I have lag. Sometimes I spend 10 seconds facing and clicking a door until it opens...And, no, I dont have a bad connection. It works wonderfully in every other MMO and every other aspect of the game.

- Gathering minigames. I like the idea. I like the execution and I think it can be perfected with less clicks/enters. But I can see it becoming a pain after some months of playing. Even more after you are capped and all you have to do is gathering/crafting/playing endgame. Maybe if they come up with a system where if you want chance to get rare drops you play the mini game. If you dont care and just want the usual drops, you just whack away. But I dont think they will do it, sadly.

- Bugs. There are a lot of them, I`m not gonna list them here. I`m not too concerned about them right now. EVERY MMO has a lot of bugs withing the first 1 year of releasing the game or 6 months after an expansion. Crap, I left WoW 5 months ago and it still had a TON of bugs that wont be adressed cause the new expansion is coming anyway.

General feeling: I would give a 5.5 out of 10 right now and a 7 out of 10 for potential. The game does have a lot of potential. If it weren`t SE, it would get 8.5 out of 10 for potential. But we know SE. They don`t care about what gamers are saying. They never did and I would be quite surprised if they do now. I will play the free month and decide if I want to stick around and get at higher levels before they adress these flaws or if I just wait to see if/when they will adress them.

Edited, Oct 11th 2010 2:26pm by Brisin
#25 Oct 11 2010 at 11:30 AM Rating: Good
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Sochie wrote:
according to the market, and the world, 14 is a failure.... It doesn't matter what you PERSONALLY think, the reviews are out there... Like it or not, that's the truth.


You seem to put so much power in review scores, but most of the games you mentioned that have "failed" received high scores; conversely, in Lineage II's case, a low-mediocre scoring game enjoyed a long-running and largely-populated success.

Compare what you said with the relevant scores you gave:
Sochie wrote:
Two of those MMO's have even failed completely (as in shut down) namely Tabula Rasa and APB, and many others in the list failed due to other reasons after launch...Examples of that are Age of Conan, DDO, and to a certain extent LOTRO.

Age of Conan - 8.5
Lord of the Rings Online - 8.3
Tabula Rasa - 7.5
Dungeons and Dragons Online - 7.5
Lineage II - 6.0


In fact, for a while, Lineage II was the most widely-subscribed MMORPG. I don't mean to commit a cherry-picking fallacy, I merely want to show how unpredictable the MMO's populations actually are. They rise and they fall, sometimes due to faults or strengths of their own, and sometimes due to competition or lack thereof.

In short, bad reviews can never come as good news, but they're certainly not "the world" proving a game is "a failure." Wait a number of months and see if FFXIV improves; you can't tell if something has actually failed until it has existed long enough to judge its population. Even if people quit FFXIV early on, we can see from the aforementioned chart that even Lineage, several years after release, had a sudden influx of almost 500,000 players!

I will wait. I will wait until after PS3 release and judge FFXIV's speed and quality of improvement. Until then, everything else is really just speculation.
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#26 Oct 11 2010 at 11:35 AM Rating: Good
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*bumps his hands against the table* OBJECTION!

You're basing your argument of gamespot's reviews. This is completely linked to its biased outlook on games.
You said it yourself when naming the other 4 ranking games: those games are unheard of. Assuming their quality is as bad as their titles, you couldn't say FFXIV's faults reach that level of mediocrity.

There's another thread that mentioning a site that gave XIV a 4.something/5. There's a contradiction against gamespot's review right there.

A proper research would include reviews from different websites and from all around the globe.

If you ask me, gamespot just wanted to be controversial. First one with the story, first one to slap a 4 on a FF title.

But I digress.

I find FFXIV to be a diamond in the rough. The mechanics and game design seem very fun.
For those who don't enjoy hunting we have the crafting system, the bazaars with selling and buying options, with looking for repairs also are a bunch of nice elements. The lack of an AH adds another new element: shopping and haggling.
Those who don't don't enjoy to sit back and craft and prefer to roam the lands can do so with mining and botany. Its not just running around blindly in search for mining points: you have skills to locate them! You also don't have to compete with other players as the mining points don't get erased after you've dug them out.
Finally, those who are more of the action kind, you have your regular mob hunting. You have a system which doesn't seem to be very productive or functional yet (battle regimes) but it seems to be a more polished version of skill chains.

If you don't have much time to play that's not a problem, for that we have guild leves. You go, pick what you want to do, teleport (oh yes!) and jump right to the point. This is also the most profitable way of playing in both EXP, SP and GIL making.

Grinding is still there for those who want it, but you don't NEED to do it if you don't want to. I find this to be huge! FFXIV doesn't force you to anything, it lets you play the game as you wish without erasing the other options. It lets you solo with ease, but rewards partying in large groups (and with a proper, strategical setup) with faster exp and higher gil bonuses.

And of course, we have the next gen graphics, the incomparable music and cutscenes with voice acting that follow a top notch story.

And I'm not even getting into how cool it is that we get to mix abilities from every job to make our custom jobs. Take marauder for example: you can build it as a tank or as a DD, totally up to you. We aren't boxed into a handful of predetermined jobs and people aren't looking for anything extremely specific when looking for others who to play with.

And yes, the UI is a huge pile of dunk, and yes the servers are still pretty laggy (but really stable), and yes the graphics haven't been optimized. But that's a matter of faith, faith in the company which hooked me up for like five, seven years? on FFXI and has released a bunch of titles I love.
So even though the game feels unfinished and its extremely unpolished I can see where they're going and I really enjoy it. I'm glad they decided to release it now worldwide and not next year on PS3 release, when we'd be half a year behind on japanese players or whatever.

Look, I draw. I'm not the best , but I'm pretty good. I enjoy watching other artist's sketches and works in rough because I can complete the gaps and see where they are going, it also shows a lot more personality and spirit than after they clean and ink them. But whenever I show this kind of work to people who aren't into drawing they look at them with as if it was sub par work.

I think this is exactly the case with XIV. Some people are ****** it isn't clean and inked yet, while others are happy knowing the form its taking.

Edited, Oct 11th 2010 1:36pm by MajidahSihaam
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#27 Oct 11 2010 at 11:49 AM Rating: Excellent
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Well, the game does have bugs, some lack of content, and some annoying things about it that HAVE to be addressed. But I think things will get better and will get fixed by the looks of it. I still like it and will continue to play.

In FFXI I never got into crafting. In FFXIV I love crafting. I enjoy it. I like the graphics. My LS is also a factor of why i enjoy the game. We do leves together, help each other out for crafting and getting Materials. Yes, somethings should have been better also from the get go of the release but they hurried the game to release it sooner and dropped the ball on other things. I report bugs in the game when i see them also to try to make sure they get fixed.. I think to casual players this game is good to hop in do a few things with limited time. i find myself in between it so when i have the extra time i craft. But i do like the game and will not bail.
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#28 Oct 11 2010 at 11:50 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
why you all aren't jumping ship as well, in the face of the overwhelmingly bad press, the bad reviews, then bad personal stories, the bad everything surrounding this game.


This right here is a logical flaw. The assumption you seem to be putting forth is that if a game receives bad press, we cannot enjoy it. A certain player, a single discrete element of the community, enjoying the game cannot be compared to the aggregate of many players, or a few reviewers, be they credible or not (I have long considered Kevin VanOrd a hack reviewer, dating back to his pan of Nier because it wasn't paced like FFXIII. This has nothing to do with the scores he assigns and everything to do with why he assigns them) who have put forth their opnions on the topic. Not because one is bigger and more valid than the other, but because they are in many ways unrelated.

You're right that the reviews coming out are going to hamper the progress of FFXIV in terms of community expansion. With that being said, does that somehow limit my enjoyment of the game? If I play a game and enjoy it, am I going to jump ship because other people didn't? You also state that the game is a failure as though this is a factual argument. Is a game a failure becuase people don't like it? Does that make Far Cry 2 a failure? Does it make Nier a failure? The concept of "failure" is hugely relative. Is it a failure commercially, failure criticially, failure artistically? It is certainly a criticial failure. Commercially, this remains to be seen, and can only be judged years down the road. But then again, minecraft is a commercial failure, as it has made precisely zero dollars. In general, if you break even, you're not a failure. Artistically? This is the most subjective. A lot of people call Nier an artistic failure. I called it an artistic triumph. I played through NG+ and baww'd my eyes out. It was touching and heartrending for me. The fact that I can feel that and the guy next to me can feel nothing but boredom tells us that this is an artistic dissonance. A lot of people want to recreate their FFXI experiences. Want to feel the same way they did when they played FFXI. A lot of people simply want this to be the best MMO ever anywhere. The failure to recreate FFXI is not an artistic failure. The failure to be perfect is not an artistic failure. It is a failure of the audience's expectations. A lot of people feel vitriol towards FFXIV for not living up to their standards when they've been waiting for so long for it, and this is understandable, but unreasonable. More than anything the feeling on the forums is that FFXIV is a personal insult to SE's fans. It is not, and it is absurd to think it is.

I enjoy the game because I have an 8-5 job and for me, the pacing of the game is perfect. I can log on, do some leves, talk with my linkshell, try my hand at crafting, dig a bit through the market ward, and log off. I can do this in about 3 hours. I didn't play FFXI for more than a week. Hated it. I didn't have any expectations of FFXIV when it came out. The UI doesn't feel clunky to me, just a little laggy. I know how to do everything and it's not complicated. It took me precisely five minutes to figure it out. I like the pacing. It doesn't feel like a race to the finish. I feel okay with not being at the level cap yet. I can explore the area around Gridania, come back with no new items, and feel like I've not wasted my time. It's pretty to explore, too, enjoyable. Feels a little like exploring in Oblivion. (Exploring in Oblivion was one of the best gaming experiences of my life.)

So to sum up, it's kind of silly to ask someone who likes a game to justify themselves in the face of criticism. Why do I like FFXIV? I just like it.
#29 Oct 11 2010 at 12:02 PM Rating: Decent
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MajidahSihaam wrote:
You're basing your argument of gamespot's reviews. This is completely linked to its biased outlook on games.
You said it yourself when naming the other 4 ranking games: those games are unheard of. Assuming their quality is as bad as their titles, you couldn't say FFXIV's faults reach that level of mediocrity.

The problem lies in the fact that it does not matter. It does not matter that there are other websites that have given FFXIV a higher score, it does not matter that it is biased, it doesn't even matter that the game honestly has a lot of potential. Gamespot is a well known, extremely popular group; and their reviews are used by thousands of people as a basis to buy or not buy a game. Square Enix, no matter how big they are, need money to continue making and supporting games. It's not just a matter of how true the article and score are, it's a matter of perception.

If the world perceives the game as being bad, people who do not do their research will be turned off from buying it (and even some people who do their research if this site is any means of measure). That money will not be funneling into Square Enix, which will make the game poorly supported.

Edited, Oct 11th 2010 2:08pm by Hulan
#30 Oct 11 2010 at 12:02 PM Rating: Excellent
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I am probably also enjoying the game for the reasons others have listed. It is likely mainly because of how and how much I play that I am avoiding the worst of the problems.

1.) I have limited playtime. I can barely finish all the leves available so I can usually be found doing the Leves, which most people agree are fun.

2.) I craft everything. I don't have to find anything from vendors at all. LS mates have my back for basics like Animal/Fish Glue. But I am making my own wooden handles, sheep/dodo leather (soon to be buffalo) and cloth.

All the basics are provided to you in Local leve rewards.
You have unlimited Moko Grass to level Weaver, Goldsmith Leves (and mining) provide Ores for making Ingots needed for Armorer, Carpenter Leves (and harvesting) provide the logs you need to make lumber. By now you have a stackful of Sheep/Dodo skins to level Leatherworking, right?

It all fits together nicely. And you gain Physical level (quickly) for taking the time to put a tool to these common materials.

At any rate, you do not need to buy these component pieces if you make them yourself, saving frustration in the Bazaar throng.

3.) Grinding. Havn't done much of this as I struggle just to finish all the available leves in 36 hours. What I have done I found very fun, though. From someone that soloed to level 45 in FFXI, I just don't mind spamming basic attacks over and over. That's what I'm here for, and it works just fine.

4.) Partying. I find time to focus on party once a week, Sunday evening. And I party with LS mates so we have a good time even if the rewards are small. The underused Search function is no issue. And the overall lack of rewards for partying just hasn't effected me much yet.

5.) Exploration. There is still so much to see. Exploring Coerthas for the first time was excellent. (Love the music.) You can harvest/mine nodes in these underpopulted areas and end up with some very rare (for now) items like dye-moss and Flax.

Dungeons look very dungeony. Full of nasties that predictably kill you in one hit. Reminds of the time I first tried to pop my head into Eldieme Necropolis...

I could go on, I think, but I've covered the basics: Leves + Crafting + LS Parties + Exploration, I have no lack of fun things to do in my limited time!



Edited, Oct 11th 2010 2:06pm by RufuSwho
#31 Oct 11 2010 at 12:06 PM Rating: Good
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MajidahSihaam wrote:

And yes, the UI is a huge pile of dunk, and yes the servers are still pretty laggy (but really stable), and yes the graphics haven't been optimized. But that's a matter of faith, faith in the company which hooked me up for like five, seven years? on FFXI and has released a bunch of titles I love.
So even though the game feels unfinished and its extremely unpolished I can see where they're going and I really enjoy it.


This would be great if we weren't paying full price. Less faith, let's get back to the serious discussion at hand.
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#32 Oct 11 2010 at 12:10 PM Rating: Good
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Who in the world cares if people say the game is crap? WOW has high scores and I hate the game to bits. This game has low scores and I love it.

Play what you enjoy and don't play what you don't enjoy. Reviews and ratings be $%*@, people can spend all day telling me that WoW is superior to FFXIV and my reply will be a repeated "WoW can't hold my interest for an hour. I expect to play FFXIV for at least 3 months."

Yes FFXIV has flaws, and as the years go by people will demand more and more perfection from MMOs. The Star Wars MMO is incredibly hyped up and expected to be a WoW killer. Wait and be disappointed that it is not the perfect MMO but just as buggy and flawed as anything else new out there.
#33 Oct 11 2010 at 12:12 PM Rating: Default
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rikkuotaku wrote:
MajidahSihaam wrote:

And yes, the UI is a huge pile of dunk, and yes the servers are still pretty laggy (but really stable), and yes the graphics haven't been optimized. But that's a matter of faith, faith in the company which hooked me up for like five, seven years? on FFXI and has released a bunch of titles I love.
So even though the game feels unfinished and its extremely unpolished I can see where they're going and I really enjoy it.


This would be great if we weren't paying full price. Less faith, let's get back to the serious discussion at hand.


That argument is idiotic, and honestly, very region focused. I'm not going to say what region of the world has THAT mentality for things, that if they don't have it the way they want it then its wrong, but people can feel free to assume whatever they want.
SE lets you play their game free for a month. Their game is what you see. An unpolished MMORPG. SE didn't hide anything, they didn't promise anything upon release, they didn't show trailers of anything that isn't in the game. With less than 10 days since the official release date the game is already being reviews by a lot of major websites.

All this and you bought it. If you don't like it there's no one else to blame but you.

Edited, Oct 11th 2010 2:16pm by MajidahSihaam
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#34 Oct 11 2010 at 12:18 PM Rating: Decent
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Here's a serious discussion.

I feel like my girlfriend of 6 years just cheated on me after spending the last year telling me about how she's going to get a makeover and get even better in bed.

I feel lied to, but...can I bring myself to break up with her. She promises me things will get better, but she didn't really say sorry. What should I do?

She's so beautiful, but, it's too broken, things aren't the same...it's just not gonna work out.

Maybe I'm a fool to leave, everyone makes mistakes....

***** it, I think I need a leggy blond to spend the night with, then come back in the new year.

That'll show her.
#35 Oct 11 2010 at 12:23 PM Rating: Good
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Just to add to my other post. About the reviews, I only have one thing I would like to say:

I loved Spirit Whitin. Watched several times and I still watch it now and then.
So, for every review, take it with a grain of salt. I saw many reviews saying a game is a blast, but I thought it sucked hard. And saw many saying a game is a bomb and I had real fun with it.
But I know I`m not your usual buyer. I only fear this game will sink because of the flaws and bad reviews it got. It would be sad if it happen.


edit. About the UI. Yes, it IS crappy. But...is any MMO UI out there good? Original WoW UI is even worst than this. To the point that I couldnt play the game without addons. To the point that, after a patch that I had to update Addons I wouldnt even log before the addons were updated. Warhammer was the same. What about AoC? Dont even get me started on their UI. I still have nightmares with it. Ragnarok and the crappy party/guild UI was a struggle to heal/buff people.
So, yes, UI is crappy. But every other MMO has crappy UI.

Edited, Oct 11th 2010 3:29pm by Brisin
#36 Oct 11 2010 at 12:25 PM Rating: Excellent
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Chnmmr wrote:
Who in the world cares if people say the game is crap? WOW has high scores and I hate the game to bits. This game has low scores and I love it.

Play what you enjoy and don't play what you don't enjoy. Reviews and ratings be $%*@, people can spend all day telling me that WoW is superior to FFXIV and my reply will be a repeated "WoW can't hold my interest for an hour. I expect to play FFXIV for at least 3 months."

Yes FFXIV has flaws, and as the years go by people will demand more and more perfection from MMOs. The Star Wars MMO is incredibly hyped up and expected to be a WoW killer. Wait and be disappointed that it is not the perfect MMO but just as buggy and flawed as anything else new out there.


Please be respectful of the requests outlined by the OP. This thread has been already produced some interesting discussion. I hate it when people rate me down and then do not give me any feedback as to what they found disrespectful or unhelpful in my post, so please take this as constructive criticism, the point that reviews do not actually make the game good or bad is valid, but most people will not care that you have made any point when you have disrespected the... rules is too strict... requests of the OP.

MajidahSihaam wrote:
rikkuotaku wrote:
MajidahSihaam wrote:

And yes, the UI is a huge pile of dunk, and yes the servers are still pretty laggy (but really stable), and yes the graphics haven't been optimized. But that's a matter of faith, faith in the company which hooked me up for like five, seven years? on FFXI and has released a bunch of titles I love.
So even though the game feels unfinished and its extremely unpolished I can see where they're going and I really enjoy it.


This would be great if we weren't paying full price. Less faith, let's get back to the serious discussion at hand.


That argument is idiotic, and honestly, very region focused. I'm not going to say what region of the world has THAT mentality for things, that if they don't have it the way they want it then its wrong, but people can feel free to assume whatever they want.
SE lets you play their game free for a month. Their game is what you see. An unpolished MMORPG. SE didn't hide anything, they didn't promise anything upon release, they didn't show trailers of anything that isn't in the game. With less than 10 days since the official release date the game is already being reviews by a lot of major websites.

All this and you bought it. If you don't like it there's no one else to blame but you.

Edited, Oct 11th 2010 2:16pm by MajidahSihaam

Similarly, can we get back to the matter at hand? Regional bashing was somewhat uncalled for.
#37 Oct 11 2010 at 12:27 PM Rating: Decent
7 posts
KaneKitty wrote:

You seem to put so much power in review scores, but most of the games you mentioned that have "failed" received high scores; conversely, in Lineage II's case, a low-mediocre scoring game enjoyed a long-running and largely-populated success.

Compare what you said with the relevant scores you gave:
Sochie wrote:
Two of those MMO's have even failed completely (as in shut down) namely Tabula Rasa and APB, and many others in the list failed due to other reasons after launch...Examples of that are Age of Conan, DDO, and to a certain extent LOTRO.

Age of Conan - 8.5
Lord of the Rings Online - 8.3
Tabula Rasa - 7.5
Dungeons and Dragons Online - 7.5
Lineage II - 6.0


In fact, for a while, Lineage II was the most widely-subscribed MMORPG. I don't mean to commit a cherry-picking fallacy, I merely want to show how unpredictable the MMO's populations actually are. They rise and they fall, sometimes due to faults or strengths of their own, and sometimes due to competition or lack thereof.

In short, bad reviews can never come as good news, but they're certainly not "the world" proving a game is "a failure." Wait a number of months and see if FFXIV improves; you can't tell if something has actually failed until it has existed long enough to judge its population. Even if people quit FFXIV early on, we can see from the aforementioned chart that even Lineage, several years after release, had a sudden influx of almost 500,000 players!

I will wait. I will wait until after PS3 release and judge FFXIV's speed and quality of improvement. Until then, everything else is really just speculation.


Fair enough. However, I will point out that Lineage/Lineage II's subscriptions wouldn't technically be "wide". High amounts? Sure. But Lineage/II was highly popular in only one region: Asia. The vast majority of their reported 3 million subscribers were out of Korea alone. I wouldn't say that Lineage hit a wide fanbase worldwide.

The point of debating reviews is spelled out in my later post, but I'll embellish on it further. Popular opinion is affected by these reviews. Popular opinion drives sales of the product, which in turn determine the product's success or failure. Right now the popular opinion of 14, for better or worse is that it's a failure. Part of my reasoning in bringing all this up is to alert people to that fact, and try to bring some collective change. I don't want censorship of the problems with the game; I want thoughtful and meaningful ideas and opinions posed so that the community as a whole looks more unified behind making 14 a better game.

Can you not see that while Lineage II got a 6.0 on Gamespot, which isn't too terrible in itself, it never really took off in the US markets? Most of the time when I saw Lineage II sitting on a shelf it was in the $9 bargain bin category. Maybe the review swayed people against the game.
#38 Oct 11 2010 at 12:31 PM Rating: Decent
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451 posts
MajidahSihaam wrote:

SE lets you play their game free for a month. Their game is what you see. An unpolished MMORPG. SE didn't hide anything, they didn't promise anything upon release, they didn't show trailers of anything that isn't in the game. With less than 10 days since the official release date the game is already being reviews by a lot of major websites.

Edited, Oct 11th 2010 2:16pm by MajidahSihaam



I hate to burst your little bubble but SE isn't letting anyone play anything for free, it cost us like 80 bucks. If you think you are playing right now for free because SE is such a charitable company, you are brainwashed.

BTW the statement "SE lets you play their game" is just well...dumbfounding.

I don't even know where to start on that one.....

"SE lets you play their game"....wow

SE makes games and we should all bow down and feel priviledged they grace us with the oportunity to lay our peasent eyes on the greatness of FFXIV.
#39MajidahSihaam, Posted: Oct 11 2010 at 12:31 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) ^this seems more interesting. I'd say you need a leggy blonde, but call your cheating ***** of a gf so she walks in WHILE you're nailing the blondie. THEN you dump her.
#40 Oct 11 2010 at 12:32 PM Rating: Decent
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You make some very valid points. It will be interesting to see how things develop. Will people ignore the reviews and come to the game anyway purely out of devotion to the FF brand, or will they pay attention to the reviews and stay away? Plenty of movies get bad reviews, yet people go to see them anyway, and they make insane amounts of money, based on brand familiarity and love of a previous product, even if the film in release is considered sub-par by reviewers. It happens all the time. I'm curious to see if FFXIV follows that trend.

There's also the question of how many, like me, are simply waiting for the PS3 release. I'm not really paying too much attention to the reviews at present because I know the game is unfinished, and it's not the game I'll be able to play March 31st. I'm certainly sympathetic to those playing the game now, but for me it's like reading a review of a rough cut to Star Wars before it has any visual effects or John Williams' score: sure, it doesn't play well now, but six months from now when it has effects and a score what's it gonna play like?

The game has certainly earned the poor reviews it's getting now, because it is like a rough cut of a film that's been released to theaters. It's not ready, and was released too early by a studio eager to get it out to the theaters to meet an arbitrary release date, rather than delay the product and release it when it was actually ready. This happens all the time, and though initial profits may be high, in the long run it rarely works. Until the special edition DVD release fixes the problems and then people see the movie that should have been and fall in love with it.

In the case of XIV, the PS3 release is like the DVD release of a movie, potentially in an expanded director's cut. It even has the normal six month window between releases, like a theater to video release window. The question is, how much of the game will they develop, fix and add between now and then? Since I, in essence, have to skip XIV in its theatrical release (as if it's not playing in my home country), all I can base my review on is the second release. For my part, the product that's being released now I know is not what I'll be playing in March.

I do think there is time for them to correct enough of the game for people to fall in love with it someday. I don't know how many players wait for the console release (on XI, I'd say 70% of the people in my LS were on PS2 or XBOX). There's potentially a huge part of the future player base that hasn't even been exposed to the game yet. If they begin to play, and the game is a different experience at that time, word of mouth could lead to the game becoming more popular and successful.
#41 Oct 11 2010 at 12:32 PM Rating: Decent
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602 posts
KristoFurwalken wrote:
MajidahSihaam wrote:

SE lets you play their game free for a month. Their game is what you see. An unpolished MMORPG. SE didn't hide anything, they didn't promise anything upon release, they didn't show trailers of anything that isn't in the game. With less than 10 days since the official release date the game is already being reviews by a lot of major websites.

Edited, Oct 11th 2010 2:16pm by MajidahSihaam



I hate to burst your little bubble but SE isn't letting anyone play anything for free, it cost us like 80 bucks. If you think you are playing right now for free because SE is such a charitable company, you are brainwashed.

BTW the statement "SE lets you play their game" is just well...dumbfounding.

I don't even know where to start on that one.....

"SE lets you play their game"....wow

SE makes games and we should all bow down and feel priviledged they grace us with the oportunity to lay our peasent eyes on the greatness of FFXIV.



Woah woah woah dude, I was talking about the open beta.
EDIT: And it IS their game. What the **** did you think? That you made it? Its their little piece of art, their design, their making. You pay to play THEIR game because you think they made a cool thing and want to be a part of it. Its not YOUR game to the extent that you can change it. Its your game to the extent that you should be able to connect if you want to and play.

Edited, Oct 11th 2010 2:37pm by MajidahSihaam
____________________________
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FFXIV: Majidah Sihaam. (Besaid)
Marauder, Weaver & Alchemist.

#42 Oct 11 2010 at 12:45 PM Rating: Good
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239 posts
Why I play and like the game? I don't think I'll be able to list all the reasons, but here goes:

1. Call be mad, but I like that I have to do some side work besides leveling, in order to get my gear (just level 13 for now). This feeling of wishing something, working for it and finally getting it is a thing I really like. And I have a job, a gf and so on, so things really take time to get but well... I'm not in a hurry or anything ^^ I mean, I play FFXI since 2004 and I got my Byakko Haidate just 3 months ago and it felt really good! ^^

2. I like the fact that they pushed harvesting and crafting forward. I played my fair share of MMOs (even though FFXI has been the one I played regularly) and at this point FFXIV seems to push these the most.

3. The crafting system looks really cool. I don't know how complex it is (hopefully it is at least as complex as the one in FFXI) but I like it's something that you DO, you interact with that synthesis, not just set it off and hope it ends up ok ^^

4. I absolutely love the graphics of the characters.

5. I love the fact that they still went along the lines of giving your character the freedom to play any class. This is something with HUGE implications in how you connect with the game. In other MMOs, if you want to play a different class, you make a different character, with a different name. This results in a lesser connection between you and those characters. The fact that in FFXIV (or FFXI) you can play all classes with just ONE character creates a very strong bond between you and that figure, that avatar of yours in the game world. As I was saying, I played FFXI since 6 years now (not going to stop) and I think I could recognize my Galka on the street if I saw him ^^

So I absolutely like the fact that in FFXIV the players (hopefully some new ones) have the chance of experiencing how having just one character for years feels like ^^ Of course, you can get some mules, but those are always secondary stuff ^^

6. I like that the fighting is more involving, however, I'm only GLA 13 so far so I don't have a huge view. However, there are some things which seem to be a good foundation. For instance, the fact that it's good to save some abilities for usage at a certain moment (Rampart, in the case of GLA, for instance) and it's not only a button mashing thing. The beasts which come look at you (Dodos, Aldgoats) are a nice touch and they also add another gameplay element into the battle, which is: pay attention to those AOE moves.

Also, the fighting system seems to have depth, which is VERY important IMHO for a MMO, which is supposed to live for year. Positioning around the mob is important, you can target members of the mob and so on. All these lay a very good foundation for complex fights later on.

7. The transportation and XP acceleration systems are really cool for players without much time to play, such as myself. I also like the fact that they still leave place for money to be made later on by classes able to teleport or instill anima in some players or whatever.

8. I like the leve system. Again, for players without much time to play it's a nice system, while it doesn't harm the regular grinding players at all.

------------

Trying to sum up, I think the game has an EXTREMELY - and I don't use the word lightly here - solid foundation. And for an MMO the foundation is really the thing which makes it or breaks it, assuming there is a capable team behind it, to use that foundation for developing the game further. And I'm convinced the team is capable. Why? Becase they did FFXI. Which - hardcore or not, ergonomic or not, liked or not, played by many or not - WAS and to a certain extent still IS a thing to behold on the MMO market! And again, I don't speak lightly.

So I see a very solid foundation with a huge bunch of rushed stuff on it (UI is absolutely horrid, lag is bad, the lack of AH is a really "are you crazy?" mistake to make at the launch of an MMO, servers are not stable enough etc.). But oh boy, I definitely do prefer a solid foundation with a rushed UI, to an empty, limited shell, with a fancy, cool interface on top. Some things are fixable. Some are not! ^^

-WAR/WHM FTW!
#43 Oct 11 2010 at 12:45 PM Rating: Good
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263 posts
MajidahSihaam wrote:


Woah woah woah dude, I was talking about the open beta.
EDIT: And it IS their game. What the **** did you think? That you made it? Its their little piece of art, their design, their making. You pay to play THEIR game because you think they made a cool thing and want to be a part of it. Its not YOUR game to the extent that you can change it. Its your game to the extent that you should be able to connect if you want to and play.

Edited, Oct 11th 2010 2:37pm by MajidahSihaam


Actually, when you beta test; you become an unpaid tester. It is assumed you have some sort of commitment to finding bugs/problems with the game. They're not giving you some sort of free ride, you're doing a job that they would pay money for so they can release a product that sells better.

Edited, Oct 11th 2010 2:45pm by sylph19
#44 Oct 11 2010 at 12:45 PM Rating: Good
7 posts
Vega62a wrote:

This right here is a logical flaw. The assumption you seem to be putting forth is that if a game receives bad press, we cannot enjoy it. A certain player, a single discrete element of the community, enjoying the game cannot be compared to the aggregate of many players, or a few reviewers, be they credible or not (I have long considered Kevin VanOrd a hack reviewer, dating back to his pan of Nier because it wasn't paced like FFXIII. This has nothing to do with the scores he assigns and everything to do with why he assigns them) who have put forth their opnions on the topic. Not because one is bigger and more valid than the other, but because they are in many ways unrelated.


Actually, it's not a logical flaw. Follow my reasoning a bit, and see where I'm coming from.

Bad press = less people buy the game. No problem right? Less kids swimming in my pool, tighter knit fanbase, neh?
Less people buy the game = less revenue for the creators. Again, not a problem right? It's Square we're talking about!
Less revenue for the creators = less ability to maintain the game. This is where the problem lies boys and girls. Square maybe SEEM like a juggernaut to us, but rest assured they're a company like any other. I'm certain that there's a graph somewhere in S-E headquarters where some accountant has plotted out projected income from 14. Somewhere there is a memo or a report stating "We need x amount of subscribers per month to justify y expenditures in the game so we can hire z programmers to do this content patch." If the "vibe" out there this early on inhibits sales and continued subscribers by a certain amount, we're looking at server consolidations, patches being delayed due to the workforce being cutback, all around problems for the people who ARE playing. Delays in much needed fixes to the game result in more fencesitters moving on to NewMMO#2921, and not coming back to 14.

Take a watch at this: http://www.massively.com/2010/10/10/gdco-2010-apbs-executive-producer-talks-about-what-went-wrong/

The things I'd heard about APB were fairly positive. But they went down quick. These guys had an interesting vision of a game. I don't want to see something like what they experienced happen to 14.

Quote:

You're right that the reviews coming out are going to hamper the progress of FFXIV in terms of community expansion. With that being said, does that somehow limit my enjoyment of the game? If I play a game and enjoy it, am I going to jump ship because other people didn't? You also state that the game is a failure as though this is a factual argument. Is a game a failure becuase people don't like it? Does that make Far Cry 2 a failure? Does it make Nier a failure? The concept of "failure" is hugely relative. Is it a failure commercially, failure criticially, failure artistically? It is certainly a criticial failure. Commercially, this remains to be seen, and can only be judged years down the road. But then again, minecraft is a commercial failure, as it has made precisely zero dollars. In general, if you break even, you're not a failure. Artistically? This is the most subjective. A lot of people call Nier an artistic failure. I called it an artistic triumph. I played through NG+ and baww'd my eyes out. It was touching and heartrending for me. The fact that I can feel that and the guy next to me can feel nothing but boredom tells us that this is an artistic dissonance. A lot of people want to recreate their FFXI experiences. Want to feel the same way they did when they played FFXI. A lot of people simply want this to be the best MMO ever anywhere. The failure to recreate FFXI is not an artistic failure. The failure to be perfect is not an artistic failure. It is a failure of the audience's expectations. A lot of people feel vitriol towards FFXIV for not living up to their standards when they've been waiting for so long for it, and this is understandable, but unreasonable. More than anything the feeling on the forums is that FFXIV is a personal insult to SE's fans. It is not, and it is absurd to think it is.


FFXIV is thus far a critical failure, with potential to be a commercial failure. I'd agree with the last section of your post more fully if it wasn't for the fact that S-E had 8 years with one MMO, and then plenty more time in alpha and beta to LISTEN to the fanbase as to what is wrong with the game. It's an insult only in the fact that S-E's unpolished and hurried release of the game blatantly ignored any input by the fans and testers of the game. THAT is why it insults people. Square is well known for making quality products. We have grown accustomed to it. When the beta was out, the fans openly and vociferously objected to the state of the game, and S-E ignored it.
#45 Oct 11 2010 at 12:48 PM Rating: Decent
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602 posts
sylph19 wrote:
MajidahSihaam wrote:


Woah woah woah dude, I was talking about the open beta.
EDIT: And it IS their game. What the **** did you think? That you made it? Its their little piece of art, their design, their making. You pay to play THEIR game because you think they made a cool thing and want to be a part of it. Its not YOUR game to the extent that you can change it. Its your game to the extent that you should be able to connect if you want to and play.

Edited, Oct 11th 2010 2:37pm by MajidahSihaam


Actually, when you beta test; you become an unpaid tester. It is assumed you have some sort of commitment to finding bugs/problems with the game. They're not giving you some sort of free ride, you're doing a job that they would pay money for so they can release a product that sells better.

Edited, Oct 11th 2010 2:45pm by sylph19


Okay, I was a FFXIV closed alpha tester. There we had forums, feedback forms, the whole thing. I did not play the open beta but for what I've heard you had no responsibility or feedback forms/threads to fill up.
So yes, that is a free ride. Its common practice on MMORPGs to make an open beta as a game trial nowadays.
____________________________
FFXI: Dashiel. (Asura) Puppetmaster.
FFXIV: Majidah Sihaam. (Besaid)
Marauder, Weaver & Alchemist.

#46 Oct 11 2010 at 12:54 PM Rating: Decent
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621 posts
I'm sure that Famitsu will rate the game much more favourably.
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#47 Oct 11 2010 at 1:28 PM Rating: Good
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56 posts
I'll keep it short:

It has a lot of faults. Some of these faults irritate the **** out of me but despite that, I still enjoy the game overall. It suits my playtime and style. But most of all, I keep playing because of the fishing.

Serious.
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#48 Oct 11 2010 at 1:32 PM Rating: Good
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3,530 posts
sylph19 wrote:
Actually, when you beta test; you become an unpaid tester...They're not giving you some sort of free ride, you're doing a job


While a "tester" certainly is a job for which some people receive payment, I think that most people who wanted to play the beta would consider their payment the fact that they get to test the game early. If people saw playing a beta as nothing more than an unpaid labour, they wouldn't have been extremely excited to sign up.

Some probably see it as a labour of love; some as a free and early demo. Just because a beta test helps SE while giving a player something they want does not mean that it's a job.
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#49 Oct 11 2010 at 1:37 PM Rating: Excellent
Edited by bsphil
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21,739 posts
Leskura wrote:
A major problem is that everyone is so used to certain features that when they aren't included AND the replacement system fails to operate in either an efficient or a user-friendly manner, people rush to the forums to let their little voices be heard. Add in glaring defects in basic functions of any game and chaos ensues. Most of those games were released when MMO's weren't immensely popular, WoW changed all of that and like it or not every MMO will be compared to it one way or another for a long time to come. Just keep in mind that you are starting over in XIV and SE is trying to create a unique and fresh experience and, in time, will create a tremendously entertaining game for most of us.
Yes, fail to include some basic features that any legitimate MMO would include at this point in time, and players will be dumbfounded at how badly the developers could mess something so simple up. Not including an inventory sorting feature is unbelievable. Even for an offline game. How could they possible overlook its importance as a feature?

Yes it's not a game breaker, yes it's likely going to be added soon, but it raises some very serious questions about the competency of this development team if they manage to ***** up something so simple. Also, the game is for sale now, this isn't a beta phase anymore. The pass for not having core UI functionality in place and streamlined ends in beta. Post-release is the time for developing content like storylines, endgame, and class balance, so not having much in place by release in those fields is absolutely allowable for a MMO.

Reminds me of playing Age of Conan at release. There were a lot of bugs and graphical issues (my framerate was horribly low for the hardware I was using). The dev team was releasing DAILY patches packed with improvements and bug fixes within the first few weeks to get the game stabilized. Even then, it wasn't enough to keep me around, and I ended up unsubscribing after the first month, and it was reviewed far better than FFXIV has.

Even if SE was only fixing a few things at a time, very regular patching (as opposed to every week or so) combined with a willingness to change implementation that players don't like would result in a ton more people having faith in SE's ability to produce a quality game. Then again, if they had been doing that since say, even one of the later beta stages, they wouldn't be in the mess they're in now in the first place.
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#50 Oct 11 2010 at 1:38 PM Rating: Good
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263 posts
KaneKitty wrote:


While a "tester" certainly is a job for which some people receive payment, I think that most people who wanted to play the beta would consider their payment the fact that they get to test the game early. If people saw playing a beta as nothing more than an unpaid labour, they wouldn't have been extremely excited to sign up.

Some probably see it as a labour of love; some as a free and early demo. Just because a beta test helps SE while giving a player something they want does not mean that it's a job.



By no means being a tester will put a lock down on how much fun you have. Like real life, a job and having fun doesn't have to be mutually exclusive.
All I'm saying is, a beta test isn't some special service they give out for your sake. Which seems to be what some people see it as.

Edited, Oct 11th 2010 3:39pm by sylph19
#51 Oct 11 2010 at 1:51 PM Rating: Good
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a) For me it's purely... fanboy-ism I guess. :( I loved FFXI and I WANT to love this game. I seriously want to.

b) Another reason for me are my old friends from FFXI. We had lots of good memories together and I really want to play with them in FFXIV.

The most frustrating moment for me was my first few hours when I was clueless and had no idea what to do. But a bit after that, I picked up fishing and start to see where the in-game demands were. Start catching fish that people need, I slowly found my place in Eorzea. Because of this, I guess, I now have enough motivation to keep my subscription. With out a) and b) however, this won't be enough. :( You could say I'm forcing myself to love this game.
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