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The Effects of Dexterity on the BattlefieldFollow

#52 Oct 13 2010 at 11:05 AM Rating: Good
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1,636 posts
RustyMcDaggers wrote:
In light of recent testing, does anybody know what the delay to reassign attribute points is?


its 45 minutes, and if possible, do not reassign your points between, because your next will remove some of those next time, reducing the overall % you get to change from each reassignment.
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#53 Oct 13 2010 at 11:15 AM Rating: Excellent
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Cyrus, I don't think that the results really whow that you should ignore DEX. If you are fighting Marmots then 40 DEX is plenty.

It will take more time to broaden the scope of the testing.

Fighting Green/Blue is much easier to testing than fighting Red, where DEX is more likely to be a factor.


Yabusame, hopefully you can get a couple healers to join you. Find an Orange, or marginally Red, mob and stay alive while you try to keep up with the record keeping. Anyone in your hoouse that would be willing to do the paper work while you do the fighting? Just a thought.

I'm on Rabanastre, and honestly have very little patience for the type of teting you are doing, so take my suggestions with a grain of salt.

I hope you don't get sick of it quite yet! *salute*
#54 Oct 13 2010 at 3:12 PM Rating: Default
33 posts
Logically the attributes would be capped by rank.

Consider this:
You are a crafter for a year, you are lvl 50 and you decide to take a DoW class.
So you switch to GLD.
You are now a Rank 1 Lvl 50 GLD.

Think about that.
Your STR and DEX would be massive, you would kill ANYTHING in one hit if they didnt cap your dmg and acc, etc, in battle.

Now the OP said he was lvl 20 rank 14.
so that would mean his attributes are 6 lvls ahead of his class.
It would make sense his acc would be capped, among other things.

It is also possible that each weapon/ammo has a hard cap for acc.
#55 Oct 13 2010 at 3:28 PM Rating: Good
TheMightyX wrote:
Logically the attributes would be capped by rank.

Consider this:
You are a crafter for a year, you are lvl 50 and you decide to take a DoW class.
So you switch to GLD.
You are now a Rank 1 Lvl 50 GLD.

Think about that.
Your STR and DEX would be massive, you would kill ANYTHING in one hit if they didnt cap your dmg and acc, etc, in battle.

Now the OP said he was lvl 20 rank 14.
so that would mean his attributes are 6 lvls ahead of his class.
It would make sense his acc would be capped, among other things.

It is also possible that each weapon/ammo has a hard cap for acc.


When did they stop teaching reading comprehension in schools? I know I had to take it.

First off, I stated I'm physical level 23, not 20. 20 DEX, and 80 DEX gave nearly the same result, certainly within probable margin for error. Of course we all expect some sort of cap on DEX, like there clearly is on VIT (you stop gaining HP after a certain amount per level). The point is that i reduced my own DEX to see if there was a cap, and 20 DEX is only a couple of points above BASE STATS. The the whole point of my whole post was to test the effect of DEX and DEX alone. Maybe at level 50 DEX will be required, but at 14 for Archers (and most likely for any other class) it is not.

All of these posters with reading comprehension problems are more frustrating than the Market Wards.
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#56 Oct 13 2010 at 4:59 PM Rating: Good
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Cyrus11 wrote:
What I think is kind of sad though is this type of information should be available to us. SE should outline exactly what impact the stats have. I mean they could tell us by what margin a single point of strength increases damage, things like that. It's silly that players have to go through this much effort just to figure out what effect their stats have. Much appreciated though.
Especially considering that every MMO will have its diehard theorycrafters, it does seem stupid to try to hide information from the community that they're just going to discover anyway. The smarter thing for a company to do would be to let customers know how the program was supposed to work so they could basically pay to playtest the mechanics.

All hiding game mechanics does is allow things to be broken - kind of like this - without anyone knowing about it. After all, if you you can't identify proper function then you can't identify dysfunction.
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#57 Oct 13 2010 at 5:13 PM Rating: Default
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Hm, not so sure i will follow this guide to much. Your rank does have a lot to do with how many points actually work. The mob you was killing for is between level 10-14, mening you could have killed more level 14 mobs when you had the 80 dex points then the 60 one. The evasion from one level to another is enough to throw it off alone. Now find a mob that only has one level then sure, but then again you can only say that the stats are true to that one mob, not on others like a fungar.

Also SE likes to make evasion and other stats different on other mobs. You can only guess what they are, but they will never tell you what they are really. The whole thing to take from this is that a ranger fighting these things may come close to the numbers. I do applaud your work as it is great, but it will not be accurate at all. Find out the Caps and that is when you will not have to worry so much.

I believe there is a formula out there that is (rankx2)+32. So if this is correct, going to 80 does nothing for you at all when you are rank 14. Not sure if the cap is correct or not, but you would be good at 60 and none higher. Then again they could be wrong and it could be just a little different.

Also juding by the way SE has done things in the past and now, i would not be surprised if they added in moon phases and all that other stuff to mess things up a little. Like how it is easy to tell with Whitemage in FFXI. You might want to look at all this stuff, because SE does not just put in simple code work into there MMO's. To me it feels like they may have ported a lot of the mechanics from FFXI, but that is just talk and smoke from me.
#58TheMightyX, Posted: Oct 13 2010 at 5:16 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) When did they start teaching douchebaggery in schools? I know i never had to take it.
#59 Oct 13 2010 at 5:27 PM Rating: Excellent
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263 posts
If you don't think his findings are agreeable do your own testing.
It's really that simple. No need to come up with your own theories with crazy formulas and assumptions, just record some of your own results and see for yourself/share.
I would think the idea of these observations was to try clear misunderstandings about stats however if people keep chirping in with assumptions; things just become more convoluted.

Edited, Oct 13th 2010 7:28pm by sylph19
#60 Oct 13 2010 at 5:48 PM Rating: Default
8 posts
Not once did i say anything bad like you, Douchebaggery. Goes to show no one can say any different. All i was trying to point out is that SE is not going to make it just that easy. As you can see though when he went to 80 it went down, but at 60 it was higher. If the mob was the same level then i would say great work, because then it would be very accurate. But being that the mob is a level range, you can never be accurate, not to mention no one can confirm the moon phases with accuracy or str.

These are all the things that went into FFXI. I guess take it how you want! If you want to say i am a douchebag for posting what i did, then fine i will not argue with you. As far as doing it myself, there is to much that goes into the whole Accuracy thing and killing the mobs like him, i would be in the same boat. If SE labels there mobs with levels, then yes i could do the test.

Now the only other thing i could do is really go through all of the work you did and group together the exp you got per mob. Like 103 exp for the PL and then i would get a little more accurate.
#61 Oct 13 2010 at 5:53 PM Rating: Default
33 posts
Wasnt talking to u jolting, ur not a douchebag. u must have missed the OPs post above yours.
I thought my reference to his quote was quite obvious.
And none of us are saying his "findings" are disagreeable.
we are simply throwing out suggestions for everyone to consider in hopes that someone will hit the mark.

Edit: You are a douchebag for assuming i was talking about you. hehehe

Edited, Oct 13th 2010 7:56pm by TheMightyX
#62 Oct 13 2010 at 6:04 PM Rating: Default
8 posts
TheMightyX wrote:
Wasnt talking to u jolting, ur not a douchebag. u must have missed the OPs post above yours.
I thought my reference to his quote was quite obvious.
And none of us are saying his "findings" are disagreeable.
we are simply throwing out suggestions for everyone to consider in hopes that someone will hit the mark.

Edit: You are a douchebag for assuming i was talking about you. hehehe

Edited, Oct 13th 2010 7:56pm by TheMightyX


Hehehe that is funny. I tried to look for a spread sheet of his findings, but i can not find one :(. Anyways it is going to be better to hit max level and then do this. Right now i think it may be a waste of time, Because if i level while i am doing this i would be mad, because i would have to start all over. Not easy trying to get the data correct the first time around.

I will try on Pug and put it in a spreadsheet for everyone to see. I will even put in the skill and everything i use. But i will not do it until a later level because i do not want to jump 10 points at a time either. I like testing the formulas out. The whole (rankx2)+32, may be accurate, but i want to see for my own eyes.
#63 Oct 14 2010 at 5:15 AM Rating: Good
8 posts
TheMightyX wrote:
Im not sure why your acc would not differ from 20-40 but jump 12% from 40-60 and then stay the same 60-80. Even the distance = acc suggestion would not account for that sort of behaviour.

Hopefully someone will figure out the correct formula for DEX = ACC

Edited, Oct 13th 2010 7:17pm by TheMightyX


Its a possibility DEX doesn't directly translate into ACC but could be a percentage modifier to ACC.

The amount of DEX needed for a bonus could increase as you gain rank, effectively making a hard bottom cap.

Example (completely made up):

@lvl 14 40 dex is the hard bottom. Every +10 dex increases ACC by 5%.

So
20 dex = 0 bonus to accuracy stat
40 dex = 0 bonus to accuracy stat
50 dex = 5% bonus to accuracy stat
60 dex = 10% bonus to accuracy stat

These type of mechanics could explain why there was no difference in the hit rate when going from 20-40. Also why gear seems to make such a large difference. If base stats are increasing the effectiveness of your gear by a percentage, then better gear gets a larger benefit from your stats.


Edited, Oct 14th 2010 7:16am by Zerrius
#64 Oct 14 2010 at 5:40 AM Rating: Decent
nice job OP.
I kind awish you were testing a melee type insteado f ranged tho.
Maur has HORRIBLE acc ( with 4 rings on)
was wondeirtng abou t these stats.
Trying to find out if, dex is acc now?
is vit linked to HP amount?
where is my agi? and.. Do we ghget skill ups for parry? .. like does eva level up? ( I stood infront of a maob for 7 minutes trying to get parry up a bit...)
I like this game and .. hate it too. No worries mostly like! lol.
#65 Oct 14 2010 at 12:23 PM Rating: Good
32 posts
forget my post. You seem to have covered a lot of ends. I post something and go back and reread the first post and you have it covered. Good job for the momoent.

Edited, Oct 14th 2010 2:51pm by Greatbape
#66 Oct 24 2010 at 12:39 PM Rating: Decent
16 posts
I decided to do a test on my own.

Yabusame Sage did a very good job here, but there were a few porblems.
Im a Gladiator so I want to now the maleeaccuracy and the Marmots are pretty weak and I think that accuracy could CAP very early against weak enemys.

I noticed a good boost in accuracy after i gained 20 DEX.
Here ist my Test:

http://www.zam.com/forum.html?game=268&mid=1287945280130955235&page=1#m1287945280130955235http://www.zam.com/forum.html?game=268&mid=1287945280130955235&page=1#m1287945280130955235
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#67 Oct 25 2010 at 12:33 AM Rating: Default
2 posts
Thank you,
You certainly put a tremendous amount of effort into this and I commend you as have all the other participants in this Post. Your results certainly give us something to chew on. Please keep the raw Data. Because, until the proper statistical tests are applied, given the large number of individual variables and potentially enormous sample size (which you intend to expand on) No statistically significant conclusions can be ascertained at present beyond reporting a trend. For instance (please believe me when I say I HATE statistics) but they do provide a process for interpreting data like this. The reason why this is important by way of example is as follows; To make the study meaningfull by using even the most simple of statistical tests,(chi Square, mean median, range & standard Deviation etc)as you know, you need to fix all the "key" variables except for the one being studied. Then define your Null Hypothesis which in this case would be that Dexterity has no effect on accuracy as you appropriately stated in less formal terminology "For this second test, I am examining what the effects of Dexterity are on accuracy" There were at first look, at least 23 potential variables including your gear,Point allotments etc. I though the repairing of the gear to NPC 75% was clever as a means of circumventing that problem. But, the biggest obstacles which I see that you might have in the future are going to be related to the effects of the non-fixed and tremendously variable Changes in Experience points, weapon skill points, gear wear and the so called Mystery Fatigue factor if it exists which occur between Battle-strikes and between battles as well with a wide range of cumulative effects over the course of hundrerds of battles and thousands of strikes. As an example you reported "At 40 DEX, 28.65% of successful attacks resulted in SP gain" The question which logically follows is, was the gain significant enough to warrant taking points from strength and Vitality and giving them to Dexterity? Keep up the good work but you will want to apply some genuine statistical tests to your data beyond calculating a simple artihmetic average in the near future and you will be glad that you saved the data.
#68 Oct 25 2010 at 4:00 AM Rating: Decent
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I didn't read all the replies, but did it occur to you that DEX most likely got capped based on your rank, much the same as VIT will only add more HP to a certain point?

I don't mean any disrespect, sorry if it comes across that way.
#69 Oct 26 2010 at 2:35 PM Rating: Decent
15 posts
I knew you were from eastern Asia long before I saw your nick. You said "After that, I’ll start showing the mages some more love". This expression is used mostly in Korea and Japan.

It sucks... dexterity should be the damage factor for an archer, not strength! I am disappointed.
Hope they'll fix it. And a load of other stuff too.
#70 Oct 26 2010 at 3:01 PM Rating: Good
Ironically, I'm half Irish, and half African-American. 0% Asian. But, I did research appropriate Japanese names before I named my FFXIV character.

Sorry to disappoint.

Edited, Oct 26th 2010 5:01pm by Yabusame
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#71 Oct 26 2010 at 3:13 PM Rating: Default
39 posts
Yabusame wrote:
Ironically, I'm half Irish, and half African-American. 0% Asian. But, I did research appropriate Japanese names before I named my FFXIV character.

Sorry to disappoint.


Son, i am disappoint.

your name didnt have to be japanese btw. its a game, sure a japanese game, but not everyone as to be a *** and thats one thing i dont understand. but hey if its your thing people.

On another note, GREAT STUDY BRO !!!! that proves us that once again SE screwed up somewhere, but im sure they'll fix this at some point.
#72 Oct 26 2010 at 3:21 PM Rating: Default
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I like the research but to say dex is completely irrelevant based on a series of light attacks doesn't say all that much.
Weapon skill damage is a huge factor and i can bet without a doubt those formulas are completely different. Dex played a major roll in FFXI for weapon skills and i'm sure thats no different in FFXIV especially now with the ridiculous tp gain. With that in mind a consistent hit rate would be important to balance out everyones TP gain so i'm not surprised if everyones base hit rate on light attacks thats unchanged by dex. Even more so is the importance of skill ups on base attacks since thats where you get most of your sp. If dex heavily affected your hit rate or even affected your hit rate at all it would give you a greater exp gain, which just isn't fair for characters who focus on defense or damage dealing.

I'm not trying to put down your work, i think people like you are a great service to the community. I just don't want those easily swayed by new data to start jumping to conclusion and making dex-less characters that turn out to be very ineffective in unknown situations.
#73 Nov 07 2010 at 5:21 AM Rating: Decent
1 post
Archer - 18
Physical - 22
Plumed Willow (21)

I checked that stat menu to see if there was a stat cap and it seems that (51-63) DEX doesnt change ATT or ACC

Before Allocation
STR - 54 (52)
DEX - 63 (58)
ATT - 51
ACC - 132

After Allocation
STR - 51 (49)
DEX - 60 (55)
ATT - 51
ACC - 132

After Allocation All Into STR
STR - 63
DEX - SAME
ATT - 51
ACC - 132

Setting DEX to 51 with no enhancements ACC still = 132
Obsidian, Bronze, Warped Arrows didn't change ATT or ACC

There must be a cap at around 50 at level 18. - [(Level (18) x 2) + Level (18) x 0.75]
Just a guess of course. Its probably SE decision for stat evening

Edited, Nov 7th 2010 6:46am by HavokHaze
#74 Nov 07 2010 at 11:52 AM Rating: Decent
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accuracy on side, dex have a significant boost on evasion. On crabs, with low dex i evade way less, if not at all.Highter dex instead works wonder
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#75 Nov 07 2010 at 3:55 PM Rating: Default
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Great work guy!

When I first started playing I had leveled up and got to the point where my starter Maraud axe would miss 3/4 times. So I put ALL my points into dex, figuring id be doing group stuff anyway. It didnt seem to help much at all. At that time nobody could make the parts I needed to craft a new one, so I took a few week break.

Coming back with the new weapon I miss 1/4 times.

I took all my points back out of dex an havent noticed much of a difference at all. Now I put it all into STR and its a much more noticable difference.
#76 Nov 08 2010 at 2:50 AM Rating: Decent
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Chubbyjesus wrote:
Great work guy!

When I first started playing I had leveled up and got to the point where my starter Maraud axe would miss 3/4 times. So I put ALL my points into dex, figuring id be doing group stuff anyway. It didnt seem to help much at all. At that time nobody could make the parts I needed to craft a new one, so I took a few week break.

Coming back with the new weapon I miss 1/4 times.

I took all my points back out of dex an havent noticed much of a difference at all. Now I put it all into STR and its a much more noticable difference.

Even if you allocate all your points in a single stat, they cap on a certain amount in base of your rank level, so it's pretty pointless. Also, lurk more lodestone, specifially the faqs : last weeks there's been one for points allotment and stats
http://lodestone.finalfantasyxiv.com/pl/topics/detail?id=145ee953e9223cb05a158b61126d9d2609e27e19

Edited, Nov 8th 2010 3:51am by Minamimoto

Edited, Nov 8th 2010 3:51am by Minamimoto
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