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Nobuo Uematsu plays FFXIVFollow

#1 Oct 12 2010 at 12:03 PM Rating: Good
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Taken from his Facebook fan page.

Nobuo Uematsu wrote:
is interested to know how you're all getting on with Final Fantasy XIV. Due to his busy schedule, he is only a rank 14 Marauder ; _ ;


Edit: Facebook link: Nobuo Uematsu

Edited, Oct 12th 2010 2:29pm by Geffe
#2 Oct 12 2010 at 12:25 PM Rating: Good
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He said he would be a Miqo'te in one of his videos. So he must be a Miqo'te Marauder. lol
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#3Twolow24, Posted: Oct 12 2010 at 12:26 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Is this a Japanese soap opra star or something?
#4 Oct 12 2010 at 12:28 PM Rating: Decent
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Why did I not know he had a Facebook page?!

Oh, Nobuo you're on Kashuan aren't you? I knew it!

#5 Oct 12 2010 at 12:28 PM Rating: Default
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I bet he plays on Figaro with the rest of the JPs.
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#6 Oct 12 2010 at 12:29 PM Rating: Excellent
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Twolow24 wrote:
Is this a Japanese soap opra star or something?


Really?

Take a look at the credits for FFXIV. They should be illuminating for you.
#7 Oct 12 2010 at 12:35 PM Rating: Excellent
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Kind of ironic that the man who has the least to say about the actual design of the game is "in touch" with it the most.

I love him - he really is a legend.
#8 Oct 12 2010 at 12:48 PM Rating: Good
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Serielley wrote:
Twolow24 wrote:
Is this a Japanese soap opra star or something?


Really?

Take a look at the credits for FFXIV. They should be illuminating for you.


I would but I read a bulletin from SE that said there's a glitch that clicking credits on the white 'play' screen can cause the game to crash and corrupt - requiring a reinstall.
#9 Oct 12 2010 at 12:48 PM Rating: Decent
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I really need to make a fake Facebook page so I can troll like all these other folks... I really can't believe the majority of the comments on that link.

I mean 80% are saying stupid crap like how they are waiting for FF200 or just flat out saying the game is horrible (even a few of which never have tried it, one more or less says I didn't get into beta... the game sucks).

A large portion of the remaining 20% (We'll pull a random number out and call it 17%) are all kissing his ***, ok he makes good music. Personally I'm not enamoured with the score in XIV, some areas are hit and some are miss. Even though though music sounds more epic, none of the starting cities give me the same emotional connection I had in XI in all 3 starting cities. It's not that the music is bad, it's way above most games... it just doesn't fit (for lack of a better word) in a few areas emotionally for me.

And then there are the last few folks (we'll call it 2.5% leaving .5% for posts that don't fit any category) who actually had relevant things to say about the game. They complain in a constructive manner for the most part and offer suggestions while being polite about their displeasure. Good thing too because the man doesn't have a huge role in the process. I'm willing to be he even gets dictated to about his directing at times.

Any way, thanks for the link. I soooo can't wait until I'm 60 and then these kids are ******** about kids having no respect on Yahooglesofts hivemind-neural-chat-holofaceblog-thing....

Edited, Oct 12th 2010 7:12pm by PerrinofSylph
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#10 Oct 12 2010 at 1:02 PM Rating: Good
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You know he did some of XI's music too, right?

He also did the score in the very first FF game. He did it as a part time job - I think they put an ad in the newspaper. From that, he made a massive career including a ton of the FF titles. He goes beyond just *doing some good music*.

Learn a little about the man before bashing the good comments made about him.
#11 Oct 12 2010 at 1:07 PM Rating: Good
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Nobuo Uematsu wrote:
is interested to know how you're all getting on with Final Fantasy XIV. Due to his busy schedule, he is only a rank 14 Marauder ; _ ;


... and with his limited time, he's been stuck on rank 14 Marauder for a while due to his inability to find new level appropriate gear through the horrendous bazaar/ward system.
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#12Kachi, Posted: Oct 12 2010 at 1:09 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Regardless, he is something of a hack and his work is hit and miss. Personally I don't even see the point of hiring a semi-prolific composer to do 3-minute scores for an MMO. It's just not a lot of music for a big game, particularly when the music is hit and miss.
#13 Oct 12 2010 at 1:15 PM Rating: Good
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Nobuo Uematsu is a..... hack?

Really?

EDIT:

Here's the link to the Wiki page about him. Here's a protip - in that table, if there isn't a name on the co-composer column, it was all Uematsu.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nobuo_Uematsu

Just wow. A hack. Decades of FF music, and the guy's a hack.

Edited, Oct 12th 2010 3:16pm by Torrence
#14 Oct 12 2010 at 1:15 PM Rating: Decent
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Torrence wrote:
You know he did some of XI's music too, right?


I hope you weren't talking to me. If you were, re-read what I wrote. I enjoy his work, I'm just not as enthused about it in XIV in a few of the areas as I have been in other games. I also posted mostly about idiots saying re-re things on his facebook. I'm only assuming you're talking to me as my post is just above yours and you didn't qoute anything from whoever you are responding to...
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#15 Oct 12 2010 at 1:15 PM Rating: Good
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Torrence wrote:
You know he did some of XI's music too, right?


Yeppers, to be specific:
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Ronfaure
Prelude
Airship
Recollection
Anxiety
Hopelessness
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Sometime, Somewhere
Despair (Memoro de la Ŝtono)
Repression (Memoro de la Ŝtono)
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First Ode: Nocturne of the Gods - with Naoshi Mizuta
Second Ode: Distant Promises - with Naoshi Mizuta
Third Ode: Memoro de la Ŝtono - with Naoshi Mizuta
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#16Kachi, Posted: Oct 12 2010 at 1:33 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) lol, fanboism is in full swing today, eh?
#17 Oct 12 2010 at 1:52 PM Rating: Excellent
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PerrinofSylph wrote:
Yahooglesofts hivemind-neural-chat-holofaceblog-thing....


Nice. Best part of the thread IMO.

So did he do the music for Coerthas? That zone is a musical winner in my book.
#18 Oct 12 2010 at 1:52 PM Rating: Default
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Kachi wrote:
The music that is good is too short and simple to have much lasting value.


I can't agree with the rest of your viewpoint, but I can definately agree on this. I wish I could remember what zone, or maybe it was a leve song, but when I got there I was like "OMG, THIS is what I was hoping for" then a few minutes later it looped and I was sad.

RufuSwho wrote:
Nice. Best part of the thread IMO.


Thanks, but the ratedowns would suggest I should have only posted that or at least put it in the begining of my post.

Edited, Oct 12th 2010 7:53pm by PerrinofSylph
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#19 Oct 12 2010 at 1:52 PM Rating: Excellent
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I'll be honest - if not having a formal musical education is what makes one a *hack* - we have a **** of a lot of music legends that don't deserve the fanbases they have.
#20 Oct 12 2010 at 2:09 PM Rating: Decent
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The music is better than most games, but for a score by him, I felt like I kept hearing older games soundtracks meshed into it.

That and I sware the same song plays over and over again in the same region. Maybe my mind drifts in and out too much but eh
#21 Oct 12 2010 at 2:43 PM Rating: Excellent
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Kachi wrote:
lol, fanboism is in full swing today, eh?

Uematsu IS something of a hack, by definition. Sub-default me if you want, but it doesn't change the fact that he has no formal music education. As someone who DOES have a formal music education, the weaknesses and limitations in his compositions are sometimes glaring. Any semi-qualified critic of music would have (and has) made the same observation. In the early days, a midi file didn't let you do a lot, so there wasn't much you could expect. But now we're in the era of the mp4, and Uematsu wastes a lot of the potential that the technology offers.

I'm very familiar with Uematsu's work. I even have hundreds of his songs on my ipod. I never said that he was a bad composer, but you have to understand that he's not some musical genius or prodigy. He's merely a passable composer who more or less lucked into an opportunity and manages to turn out some catchy tunes. Which in the music world, makes him something like a jingle writer who got an incredibly sweet gig.

It was unrealistic of SE to expect Uematsu to score FFXIV on his own and still create a game where the players won't get bored with the music quickly. The result is that there isn't a lot of music in the game and a lot of it is lackluster. The music that is good is too short and simple to have much lasting value.



And hence why some composers with formal training look up and respect some of his compositions.

I find most "educated" composers dull, pretentious and lacking soul. Uematsu can make a simple melody tug at your emotions, and that is all that really matters.

It is just this lack of education that makes him unique. He has had fortuitous beginnings that brought him to SE, though he has grown into his own style and I don't think at any point has he rested on his laurels.

I think calling him a hack in any way shape or form, regardless of the intent is just doing a disservice to his body of work and the man himself.
#22 Oct 12 2010 at 3:30 PM Rating: Decent
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PerrinofSylph wrote:
A large portion of the remaining 20% (We'll pull a random number out and call it 17%) are all kissing his ***, ok he makes good music. Personally I'm not enamoured with the score in XIV, some areas are hit and some are miss. Even though though music sounds more epic, none of the starting cities give me the same emotional connection I had in XI in all 3 starting cities. It's not that the music is bad, it's way above most games... it just doesn't fit (for lack of a better word) in a few areas emotionally for me.


Here's the problem with the score.

FFXIV's score is really great. There's a lot of nice melodies and he uses a wide array of good motifs. It's basically typical Nobuo and it's the sound we're used to. All in all, it's really a solid soundtrack...

but...

It simply doesn't fit in the FFXIV world. His compositions are good, but the instrument and synth choices just don't mesh with the "This world is taken too **** seriously." approach that SE takes to their MMOs. That kind of light-hearted, quirky Nobuo sound simply doesn't really have a place.

The soundtrack's really colorful and vibrant. The actual world, however, (despite being a very good looking MMO technically speaking) is pretty drab and devoid of life.

The soundtrack would have actually fit perfectly if he were to have scored it like he did Lost Odyssey.

Kierk wrote:
And hence why some composers with formal training look up and respect some of his compositions.

I find most "educated" composers dull, pretentious and lacking soul. Uematsu can make a simple melody tug at your emotions, and that is all that really matters.

It is just this lack of education that makes him unique. He has had fortuitous beginnings that brought him to SE, though he has grown into his own style and I don't think at any point has he rested on his laurels.

I think calling him a hack in any way shape or form, regardless of the intent is just doing a disservice to his body of work and the man himself.


I agree. If anything, the formally educated composers end up being boring to listen to. Much like the old adage "A scientist doesn't see a sunset anymore, but merely gases in the atmosphere." most educated composers end up worrying too much about their works being as flawless as possible in terms of construction. They're taught "This shouldn't be done," "This isn't acceptable," "This is a weak chord and should be ignored always," and stuff like "Parallel movement should never, ever be used". Instead of going back and actually seeing that most of these 'rules' were ignored in the past as well in a lot of the best works they just take it as rote.

Thus, usually they end up producing structually sound works that sound soulless. Creativity basically gets thrown aside because they're too **** worried of sticking by the rules.

Edited, Oct 12th 2010 5:38pm by StrijderVechter
#23Kachi, Posted: Oct 12 2010 at 3:31 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Honestly, your loyalty to his work is humorous to me.
#24 Oct 12 2010 at 3:35 PM Rating: Excellent
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Uematsu IS something of a hack, by definition. Sub-default me if you want, but it doesn't change the fact that he has no formal music education. As someone who DOES have a formal music education, the weaknesses and limitations in his compositions are sometimes glaring. Any semi-qualified critic of music would have (and has) made the same observation. In the early days, a midi file didn't let you do a lot, so there wasn't much you could expect. But now we're in the era of the mp4, and Uematsu wastes a lot of the potential that the technology offers.


really? you listen to dancing mad and you still say that? you listen to the extreme or the fight with seymour or the battle on the big bridge and you still say that? because if you havent listened to those, you should.

dancing mad is so widely respected as a song that its taught in the japanese school curriculum. his use of leitmotif to impart feeling and characterization in his songs is up there with some of the finest opera and ballet composers this world has known. more so than that, while you were still getting your "formal" education, he was making all of this wonderful music on incredibly limited mediums (8-bit and 16-bit respectively).

dislike his music, sure, but dont call him a hack, especially when other people with formal music education feel the same way i (and many, many others) do:

http://www.destructoid.com/final-fantasy-vi-s-dancing-mad-a-critical-analysis-157570.phtml
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#25 Oct 12 2010 at 3:43 PM Rating: Excellent
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And this is all fine and good for many situations, including most of the games he did score. There's nothing wrong with being a great jingle writer when a jingle is called for. However, in an MMO where someone will be listening to your piece for many many hours, having the entire game scored by someone who doesn't really even have the ability, let alone the predisposition, to compose a full piece of music, is something of a waste.

Put the same score in a single player game, and it becomes another story entirely.



How does playing an MMO differ from playing an online game for hours at a time? Last I checked, offline games loop as well. Some of the points you are making just confuse me to no end.


I get that you are an under appreciated artist and are angry. The whole starving artist and tortured soul bit is incredibly ****. Really, I get that. However, calling him a hack is the Gaming world equivalent of me going up to my parents and telling them that the Beatles were hacks and they were only fit to write jingles because none of them had a formal education and they only adhered to *some* of the musical rules of engagement by accident.

I mean wow - what are you even talking about?
#26 Oct 12 2010 at 3:45 PM Rating: Excellent
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Kachi wrote:
Music is not the freeform art that many music-uneducated people tend to believe it is. There are many rules to composition. Even Uematsu nearly always follows these rules, but when you don't understand them you are very limited in what you can do. Anyone who isn't tone deaf can create a composition with the "this sounds good" method.


Thus, you don't understand a **** thing about what the 'rules' are for.

Those 'rules' you learn in college are not to die for, and if anyone has a professor that's worth half a **** they would have stated that up front in the introduction course. They are building blocks; a foundation. Only an idiot sticks by the 'rules', truly, in musical composition. That person isn't a composer at all; he's still a student that never really graduated despite what that useless piece of paper has written on it.

A composer knows the 'rules'.

And he knows when to ignore them.
#27Kachi, Posted: Oct 12 2010 at 3:48 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Um, are you able to read English?
#28Kachi, Posted: Oct 12 2010 at 3:52 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Completely missing the point. There are certainly times to ignore the rules. Uematsu ignores the rules at times (or rather, doesn't know them anyway) and that's fine. My complaint has never been that he doesn't apply the rules, but that he doesn't know them well enough to take his music beyond very simple compositions.
#29 Oct 12 2010 at 4:02 PM Rating: Default
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I'll also re-emphasize that I don't think Uematsu is a bad composer. He's quite good considering his background and at least one of his works is particularly impressive to me. I have defended Uematsu in the past, but really now, I don't think I was out of line to call him something of a hack and say that to place the entire score on his shoulders was a mistake. Really, placing an entire score for an MMO on any composer's shoulders would be a mistake, but particularly considering Uematsu is best known for his quick, catchy tunes, and not his deep compositions, I think he was not a great choice.
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#30 Oct 12 2010 at 4:09 PM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
Also, I'm not an artist. I'm getting my PhD in a completely different field. I nearly completed a music degree but simply didn't and still don't have any desire to work in music. Way to make assumptions, though.


Quote:
As someone who DOES have a formal music education


Quote:
have a formal music education


Quote:
formal music education


...

Quote:
Way to make assumptions, though.


....right. what an assumptive leap of faith we've all made in thinking you had some kind of music degree.

*engage david caruso mode!*

so, since you never really completed said formal music education, i guess that means you....couldn't hack it? (YEEEAAAAAAHHHHHH!) *puts on sunglasses*

*disengaging david caruso mode*

Quote:
Completely missing the point. There are certainly times to ignore the rules. Uematsu ignores the rules at times (or rather, doesn't know them anyway) and that's fine. My complaint has never been that he doesn't apply the rules, but that he doesn't know them well enough to take his music beyond very simple compositions.


if youre talking about the "rules" of baroque music as laid down by bach, then i have to disrespectfully disagree. you **** (thats the disrespectful part). having dabbled in music theory myself, i remember both of my theory professors talking about how the rules are nice and all, but ultimately are only "rules" because some guy came along after the music was made and tried to make sense of it all by applying rules and restrictions to it.

bach, arguably the epitome of baroque musical architecture, didnt care about any rules. he just composed and played whatever sounded good to him. the essence of musical creation lies not in some set of rules to be obeyed (but not all the time!) but in what appeals to the listener. accounting for the allure of proper musical tension building, uematsu quite obviously knows how to create moving, attention-grabbing pieces that are interesting to listen to multiple times, wherein a person can find new musical nuance despite having heard the song dozens, if not hundreds of times.
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#31 Oct 12 2010 at 4:14 PM Rating: Excellent
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I'll also re-emphasize that I don't think Uematsu is a bad composer. He's quite good considering his background and at least one of his works is particularly impressive to me. I have defended Uematsu in the past, but really now, I don't think I was out of line to call him something of a hack and say that to place the entire score on his shoulders was a mistake. Really, placing an entire score for an MMO on any composer's shoulders would be a mistake, but particularly considering Uematsu is best known for his quick, catchy tunes, and not his deep compositions, I think he was not a great choice.


>.<

i think its fair to make an argument that dancing mad and one-winged angel are uematsu's best known works.

neither of those are quick, nor are they "catchy". they are lengthy. they are involved. they consist of actual discrete movements like you would expect in an opera.

based on your final sentence, im led to believe that you havent actually listened to any of uematsu's more involved songs. as such, i prescribe some homework for you. you are to listen to the following songs in their entirety:

The Darkness of Eternity - Final Kuja fight music from FF9.
Dancing Mad - Final Kefka fight music from FF6
The Extreme - Final Ultimecia fight music from FF8.
One-winged Angel - If you don't know what this is then....there are no words.
Final Chaos Shrine Descent (not sure of its actual name) - the final background music for the Old Chaos Shrine in FF1....yes, in ALL of it's 8-bit glory.
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#32 Oct 12 2010 at 4:16 PM Rating: Excellent
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Um, are you able to read English?

Why are you talking about MMO vs. online game? That has nothing to do with what I'm talking about.
Edit: Ok, I assume that was a typo and should have read "offline."


Could have done without the meanness, but you are correct. It was a typo and I did mean offline.

I just don't understand what it is about Nobuo Uematsu that has you wall'o texting. He's had a career that has spanned decades, he is STILL out there playing rock and roll, and he has put together some of the most beautiful themes and compositions the gaming world has ever heard. I have the same level of respect for Jason Hayes - and I don't know anything about his musical education either.

If someone wants to say they don't enjoy his music, there's nothing wrong with that. It's an opinion. However, to say that he doesn't deserve his fans because of the school he did or didn't go to - that goes beyond differing opinions. This world was built on people who learned and discovered and documented. Your education wouldn't even exist if it weren't for those *uneducated hacks* that you have such disdain for. That's true in any field of study.
#33xthunderblazex, Posted: Oct 12 2010 at 4:24 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Now they can banhammer Nobuo if he refuses to compose for them.
#34 Oct 12 2010 at 4:30 PM Rating: Excellent
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I was going to respond to Kachi, but others have pretty much said what I was going to say.

I'll close by saying this. I do like Uematsu, and admittedly although I agree with Kachi on some points, I have a very fond place in my heart for him.

For over 10 years as a hack composer myself, with little to no formal training, my compositions and instrumentals are very and unintentionally similar in style to Uematsu. But I'm also influenced by other things, bands, composers, art and literature.

And I guess it was the hope that if he was lucky enough to get a gig with a similar skill set, then maybe I could too.

Eh.
#35 Oct 12 2010 at 4:55 PM Rating: Excellent
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Nobou LUCKED OUT?
Someone has never played Final Fantasy 6 or 7.
Amazing music that cannot be touched. Calling him a hack is an insult to music and you should refrain from giving such terrible opinions.

It sounds like you dislike popular things which I find laughable.
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#36 Oct 12 2010 at 4:59 PM Rating: Good
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Kachi wrote:
Completely missing the point. There are certainly times to ignore the rules. Uematsu ignores the rules at times (or rather, doesn't know them anyway) and that's fine. My complaint has never been that he doesn't apply the rules, but that he doesn't know them well enough to take his music beyond very simple compositions.

The rules are not just guidelines, but as you said, building blocks. But if you're missing a lot of building blocks, it sort of diminishes the possibility of what you can build, doesn't it?


I am not 'missing the point' because you simply aren't making one worthwhile. The rest of your post is a futile grap at trying to sound intelligent when you merely look like a fool.

EDIT: Missed another moronic sentence.

Complex compositions does not necessarily equate to an enjoyable and rich experience. Neither are all 'simple' compositions childish attempts at 'real music'. There are thousands of pieces of music that are overly complex and utterly boring just as there are simple, melodic pieces that convey a more meaningful message due to how they are made.

Frankly, video games are not the place for overly complex music. Even Koichi Sugiyama, whom **** near every Japanese VG musician reveres as BIG BOSS, doesn't write very complex music for video games -- and this man scores movies, television, and writes symphonies. Plus, the fact that you believe Uematsu hasn't written any complex music at all tells me that you truly don't know what the **** you're talking about and simply look more the fool.
#37 Oct 12 2010 at 5:21 PM Rating: Good
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Music is an art form. To judge it based on its complexity is both laughable and pretentious.
A discussion for another place of course.
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#38 Oct 12 2010 at 5:25 PM Rating: Excellent
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I cant stop laughing at the Uematsu is a hack comment, it's pretty ballsy.

You can point out plenty of songs he composes that are "so-so" but some of the pieces he created for FF 4-7 are pretty much the holy grail of video game music. Looks like you've just made that statement to score points for shock value as it's akin to calling Einstein a physics hack or Neil Armstrong "just some guy who walked on the moon". He's known around the world for his craft and really that's all that matters.




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#39 Oct 12 2010 at 8:37 PM Rating: Decent
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There are no rules in art, you imbecile.
#40 Oct 12 2010 at 9:02 PM Rating: Good
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That fan page isn't actually him. It's just for people who appreciate him.

If you look at some of his older posts:

Nobuo Uematsu!
Nobuo Uematsu! I love Nobuo Uematsu! If I could I would marry him because he's so AWESOME!

(By the way I made this group, I don't know why it doesn't say)


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#41Kachi, Posted: Oct 12 2010 at 10:18 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Torrence, either you are intentionally misrepresenting my statements, or you genuinely didn't understand them (and are misrepresenting them regardless). I would appreciate an apology.
#42 Oct 12 2010 at 10:19 PM Rating: Good
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Kachi wrote:
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I'll be honest - if not having a formal musical education is what makes one a *hack* - we have a **** of a lot of music legends that don't deserve the fanbases they have.


I assume you're talking about performers and popular artists, in which case, you'd be right. A lot of them don't deserve to be legends. They profit from the lack of a music education that most people receive, which severely limits their ability to appreciate music beyond an initial catchiness. As a result, truly good compositions with lasting merit fall to the wayside of compositions that stand primarily on marketing.

But you can't compare the style of music that Uematsu does (instrumental) to popular music (mostly vocal) in any case. Though it wouldn't be totally unfair to consider Uematsu something like a Britney Spears of instrumental music.

Quote:
I think calling him a hack in any way shape or form, regardless of the intent is just doing a disservice to his body of work and the man himself.


Honestly, your loyalty to his work is humorous to me.

Frankly, success as a musician, as a composer, is a tremendous matter of opportunity, and Uematsu was the benefactor of that, just like Britney Spears is really nothing special as a performer-- she was just lucky to be found and made into the success she is. This is more or less what happened when Square "made" Uematsu. There are no shortage of equally skilled or better composers, nor were there 20 years ago. If someone other than Uematsu had been hired and retained, odds are good we would be having this exact same conversation about them.

He was fortunate, and he used that fortune to bring us some good music. But he is far from infallible, and I've never seen him receive any criticism that he didn't fully deserve.

Also, I'm going to guess that you haven't listened to a great deal of compositions by "educated" (lolquotes?) composers.

Music is not the freeform art that many music-uneducated people tend to believe it is. There are many rules to composition. Even Uematsu nearly always follows these rules, but when you don't understand them you are very limited in what you can do. Anyone who isn't tone deaf can create a composition with the "this sounds good" method.

And this is all fine and good for many situations, including most of the games he did score. There's nothing wrong with being a great jingle writer when a jingle is called for. However, in an MMO where someone will be listening to your piece for many many hours, having the entire game scored by someone who doesn't really even have the ability, let alone the predisposition, to compose a full piece of music, is something of a waste.

Put the same score in a single player game, and it becomes another story entirely.



Thanks, man, really. My girlfriend and I laughed for a good 20 minutes at all your posts on this thread. Made my day.

I guess as a person with "formal music education" you've certainly heard the music created by the lowly tone-deaf peasant such as Mozart, or the laughably regurgitated measures spewed by Beethoven. Both of those are held up to the GODS (ie, the 'musicians' with formal education) as prime examples of what absolute garbage is created when someone dares to dream beyond their means. Look all you dreamers upon the GENIUSES of music! Go forth to the schools of rock and acquire your turned up noses and inflated heads. Show the lowly masses what the true nectar of the gods is!

*jams*
#43Kachi, Posted: Oct 12 2010 at 10:37 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) I'm not sure with the way the industry is now how feasible it would be to hope for a composition job without some serious credentials-- you have to remember that Uematsu came in nearly on the ground floor of a studio and industry that was at the time almost -nothing-, on a project that was supposed to be the company's desperate hail mary.
#44 Oct 12 2010 at 10:41 PM Rating: Default
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I guess as a person with "formal music education" you've certainly heard the music created by the lowly tone-deaf peasant such as Mozart, or the laughably regurgitated measures spewed by Beethoven.


One (or I guess two) more people who completely missed the point? I am not some music elitist who insists that education is everything. I'm merely pointing out that Uematsu has weaknesses as a composer that are relevant to scoring an MMO, and these stem from his lack of an education in composition.
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#45 Oct 12 2010 at 10:49 PM Rating: Excellent
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The whole thing with music is that it's credibility is decided from popular opinion. You can say he has weaknesses, but i think any musician / composer has them. There isn't a perfect musician because there never can be. Some will like, and others won't.
All art is like this. If your opinion falters from popular opinion, that's fine. I'm not into rap or hip hop, so we are in the same boat in that regard. But to say
Kachi wrote:
Regardless, he is something of a hack
on a forum dedicated to FF, is like going to any credible music school in the country and saying Mozart was a hack lol.

Just saying.
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#46 Oct 12 2010 at 11:03 PM Rating: Excellent
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Kachi wrote:
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I guess as a person with "formal music education" you've certainly heard the music created by the lowly tone-deaf peasant such as Mozart, or the laughably regurgitated measures spewed by Beethoven.


One (or I guess two) more people who completely missed the point? I am not some music elitist who insists that education is everything. I'm merely pointing out that Uematsu has weaknesses as a composer that are relevant to scoring an MMO, and these stem from his lack of an education in composition.


No, I completely understand your point. The thing is, both the way you make your point and the point itself is elitist and insists that an education in composition would correct a perceived weakness in his work. You are making something that is a matter of opinion into matter of fact. It's a logical fallacy. In the examples I gave in my admittedly venom filled post, neither Beethoven nor Mozart had any formal education in composition and yet they composed arguably some of the most beautiful and compositionally perfect works in the history of man. I could not say with a straight face and without a doubt that a "formal" education would make a lick of difference to those two. They could create it because they could feel it, not because they understood it completely.

Look, I'm not accusing you of being an elitist a$$hat, I'm just saying that the way you are arguing your point makes you look like one. Give the other guy a little wiggle room when stating your opinions so that you don't trample on his.

BTW, I, too, have a "formal" education in music. I just don't use it to discredit someone's work by calling them a hack.
#47 Oct 12 2010 at 11:04 PM Rating: Default
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Music is simply sounds that sound "good" to our brains which can be somewhat described mathematically.
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I thought of it first:

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10&mid=130073657654872218#20
#48 Oct 12 2010 at 11:07 PM Rating: Excellent
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CassiusOS wrote:
Kachi wrote:
Quote:
I guess as a person with "formal music education" you've certainly heard the music created by the lowly tone-deaf peasant such as Mozart, or the laughably regurgitated measures spewed by Beethoven.


One (or I guess two) more people who completely missed the point? I am not some music elitist who insists that education is everything. I'm merely pointing out that Uematsu has weaknesses as a composer that are relevant to scoring an MMO, and these stem from his lack of an education in composition.


No, I completely understand your point. The thing is, both the way you make your point and the point itself is elitist and insists that an education in composition would correct a perceived weakness in his work. You are making something that is a matter of opinion into matter of fact. It's a logical fallacy. In the examples I gave in my admittedly venom filled post, neither Beethoven nor Mozart had any formal education in composition and yet they composed arguably some of the most beautiful and compositionally perfect works in the history of man. I could not say with a straight face and without a doubt that a "formal" education would make a lick of difference to those two. They could create it because they could feel it, not because they understood it completely.

Look, I'm not accusing you of being an elitist a$$hat, I'm just saying that the way you are arguing your point makes you look like one. Give the other guy a little wiggle room when stating your opinions so that you don't trample on his.

BTW, I, too, have a "formal" education in music. I just don't use it to discredit someone's work by calling them a hack.


The kicker is, that formal education came about because of the work of composers like Beethoven, mozart, Bach etc...
Formal education teaches the concepts invented by people with a natural ability.
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#49 Oct 12 2010 at 11:28 PM Rating: Excellent
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As for the rules of music that were established both by Bach and Beethoven, they can't really be diminished with a wave of the hand when they are literally the foundation of nearly all past and contemporary music. 99.9% of everything you listen to follows their rules very strictly. Music is an art, but SOUND does not follow the same psychological rules of art that other arts do. Some sounds are ugly, and this is not as much subjective as it is ingrained in our very genes. There is FAR less interpretation and leeway than in the visual arts. Good composition is essentially a math problem.


i know the director of a micro-tonal music festival that would disagree with you.

music, as we know it in the west (and indeed, as uematsu often composes it) follows and "lives by" different rules than it does elsewhere in the world. simple cultures (that is to say, ones that are largely still what could be called "tribal") often adopt the use of the pentatonic scale, omitting the rather dissonant 2nd and 7th notes in favor of a scale utilizing only the 1, 3, 4, 5 and 6th tones.

however, in western music, the 2nd and 7th notes create a great deal of musical tension, and such are used to drive the music we know and love. as you know, Dancing Mad uses this musical tension to great effect (for those wondering what i mean by "musical tension" listen to the second movement of Dancing Mad, where the organ starts to become especially dissonant in sound. that dissonance is intentional, and not only does it represent Kefka and his madness, but it also serves as a relentless engine in the song, driving it to its ultimate tonal resolution heard at the bridge between the third movement and the fourth movement). these 7th and 2nd notes are often incorporated into minor chord tonality, and indeed exist as the base of minor chords (again, for those without a musical background, you already know what a minor chord tonality sounds like....pretty much any song that is "dark" or "sad" utilizes some kind of minor chord in western music).

however, thats just western music. in eastern music, said minor chords and tones are not seen as being "sad" or "darker" than their companion major chords and tones, and as thus youll have songs written that are considered "pop" songs yet written almost entirely with a minor tonality in mind. contrast this to western music where anyone who has listened to enough music can anticipate the chord progression behind most pop songs (nearly all of which utilize the same basic major chord structure) and its easy to see how culture can influence what is and is not considered "good composition." the bottom line is, you cannot just reduce sound to a series of math problems. ask any musician that plays an untempered instrument (violin, fretless guitar) where they note "A" is, and their answer will be "well, it depends." this is because sound as we describe it in tones is ultimately based off of relative ratios that change depending on they key you are in.

in short, there are no hard and fast rules, and it does a disservice to say that musical sound can be broken down into simple math equations. yes, the mechanics of sound can be quantified as equations in and of themselves, but as you start adding complexity beyond a single tone, the ability to use math to express this sound as music drops off.

more specifically:

Quote:
As for the rules of music that were established both by Bach and Beethoven, they can't really be diminished with a wave of the hand when they are literally the foundation of nearly all past and contemporary music. 99.9% of everything you listen to follows their rules very strictly.


you have to realize that bach and beethoven did not "establish" any rules of music per se. they just composed and played what sounded good. it was the music theorist who came after that began to try and quantify what they did into the "rules" of baroque music. but they were stymied because baroque music didnt really have any hard and fast rules....they were a lot like the pirates code....guidelines, really. a general set of things that should be done most of the time but ultimately what wins out is the question of whether or not what youre doing sounds good.

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Being able to offer and receive criticism is crucial to professional development, and critical discussions of a professional's work are both a good exercise and, some would say, enjoyable. It's truly a shame how few people here seem able to appreciate what is critical to development. If you cannot question your own perceptions, loyalties and biases with a critical and objective eye, your growth is limited as a person. And the same is true if you cannot accept criticisms from and about others.


a noble goal, but youll have to forgive me if i call ******** on account of backpedaling. i can, for example, say to mikhalia, "youre an attention *****, get over yourself you insecure mealworm," but that doesnt really do much aside from make me look like an ***. instead, i could say something like "gosh mikhalia, you post a lot, but it seems to me a lot of your posts are just done for the sake of posting....maybe you could try saying something relevant or helpful to the thread at hand in every post you make, just so it looks like youre not just trying to +1 yourself as much as possible."

one is criticism. the other is basically me calling him a hack. one of those he can learn from, the other one just makes me look like a ****.

taken back into context, you came in here and you called uematsu a hack and a weak composer. this led a lot of us to believe you hadnt actually, you know, *heard* any of his music aside from what is currently in 14. it smelled very much like that fox TV news interview about Mass Effect a few years ago, where they interviewed these three "experts" for their opinions about this game they had never played.

"Well, I have absolutely no knowledge of what this subject is about, so let me tell you why it is wrong and terrible in every single way."

so heres my constructive criticism to you....try not to use the word "hack" when trying to constructively criticize someone or something.
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#50Kachi, Posted: Oct 13 2010 at 3:22 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Eh, I stand by my assertion that Uematsu is "something of a hack." Not all hacks are completely without merit, and being "something" of a hack is even less of a scathing criticism to me. It's a relatively gentle rebuke in my eyes. Clearly some would differ.
#51 Oct 13 2010 at 6:40 AM Rating: Excellent
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Is this the guy who put a rock band together to thrash out nothing but Final Fantasy tracks?

If so, this alone makes him a legend in my book.
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