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The Sad Truth about NPC Sell/Buy LagFollow

#52 Oct 19 2010 at 10:14 PM Rating: Decent
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PinkMermaid wrote:
Its funny. But the WoW graphics are **** ugly and cartoonish. That video could easily be turned over to "Comparing graphics in xiv to WoW" and be in xiv's favor lol.

Edited, Oct 13th 2010 1:29am by PinkMermaid



I reckon this ^^ is the demographic SE is focusing on.
#53 Oct 19 2010 at 10:30 PM Rating: Good
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There is no defending this, nor is there any reason to defend FFXI. FFXI has similar issues with characters spawning around you and latency. What I mean is that you walk 20 feet and suddenly 30 people spawn around you that you couldn't see before, and the people behind you de-spawn.

Sorry, but I have only seen this happen on square-enix MMO titles. Don't give me a server population observation about how many are online on a given server compared to other MMO games. It is the pipeline to the Japan servers that causes this, and nothing else. Unless they adopt regional servers, then most of us are going to experience this again and again, but I can understand that it should be an international game. It is much funner that way. The problem is that I have yet to interact with a foreign player (other than Europe), so what is the point? As far as beating my head against the wall, here it is.

http://www.veoh.com/browse/videos/category/technology_and_gaming/watch/v20484759rakEKCcf
#54 Oct 19 2010 at 11:08 PM Rating: Good
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Forget WOW. AION has undergone a recent upgrade that blows away even WOW's graphic upgrade. That is not the issue. The problem with FFXIV is really the same problem FFXI has. SE is a console game company, and a very xenophobic one.

Once again we are stuck with a playstation game running on a PC. Why else would they kill the Windower? Sure the PS3 version won't come out until next year, but didn't Sage Sundi mention that PC players won't get all they want because of the PS3? Then too, according to one game review every button press is verified server side. The servers are in Japan, so figure what this does to game response.


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#55 Oct 19 2010 at 11:25 PM Rating: Decent
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Addyyuna wrote:
Forget WOW. AION has undergone a recent upgrade that blows away even WOW's graphic upgrade. That is not the issue. The problem with FFXIV is really the same problem FFXI has. SE is a console game company, and a very xenophobic one.

Once again we are stuck with a playstation game running on a PC. Why else would they kill the Windower? Sure the PS3 version won't come out until next year, but didn't Sage Sundi mention that PC players won't get all they want because of the PS3? Then too, according to one game review every button press is verified server side. The servers are in Japan, so figure what this does to game response.




Yup, it was Sage Sundi who said they couldn't do much with the UI for the PC version because it also has to work on PS3. What I don't get is why they can't give the PS3 a "mouse" cursor like XIV has that is moved around with an analog stick and have it function identically to a two button mouse for select, confirm, drag 'n drop, etc.

Or do they already have that and just can't figure out how to make the most of it? (Obviously we don't know what the PS3 interface for XIV will have/not have, but you get the idea).

There's no meaningful functionality for the right mouse button right now except to indicate you want to use your mouse to move the camera. Why no right-click interfacing from a list menu? Why can I not go into my inventory, right click a piece of gear or an item and be given a context-sensitive menu to equip, use, drop, etc.?

I didn't hang out in FFXI long enough for the free trial to see if SE improved the lag in item transactions, specifically the mailbox, but I do remember XI before I left and how you could run to your mog house and open your mail interface and then literally sit there and count waiting for each item to appear in the box, sometimes resulting in an error that closed your mailbox and told you to try again. SE is horrid for managing server resources. They could save so many resources by shifting so many inventory functions client-side and let our machines do the mundane details and only query the server for "final" changes. If I'm transferring items to and from my retainer, it doesn't need to poll the server for each and every transaction. All it has to do is prepare a packet client side with all of the changes and then when I close the retainer inventory window it ships the packet to the server with the changes. The server receives the packet, processes all of the transactions, and then sends an OK signal to the client. If the client receives the OK, everything goes through. If the client receives an error response, it resets to the pre-transaction values. But SE doesn't batch data that way. They handle everything individually and then wonder why their servers bog down. It's highly amateurish.
#56 Oct 19 2010 at 11:45 PM Rating: Good
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My point is that it is obvious that the UI in FFXIV is laggy, slow and terrible. I don't understand why even long time fans of the Final Fantasy series and Square Enix's work, which I consider myself, can't just admit it and move on.


Because that would challenge the infallibility of their god.
#57 Oct 19 2010 at 11:47 PM Rating: Good
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There is no defending this, nor is there any reason to defend FFXI. FFXI has similar issues with characters spawning around you and latency. What I mean is that you walk 20 feet and suddenly 30 people spawn around you that you couldn't see before, and the people behind you de-spawn.

Sorry, but I have only seen this happen on square-enix MMO titles. Don't give me a server population observation about how many are online on a given server compared to other MMO games. It is the pipeline to the Japan servers that causes this, and nothing else.

Not true. It's just as bad here in Japan.
#58 Oct 20 2010 at 1:41 AM Rating: Good
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Rinsui wrote:
Quote:
There is no defending this, nor is there any reason to defend FFXI. FFXI has similar issues with characters spawning around you and latency. What I mean is that you walk 20 feet and suddenly 30 people spawn around you that you couldn't see before, and the people behind you de-spawn.

Sorry, but I have only seen this happen on square-enix MMO titles. Don't give me a server population observation about how many are online on a given server compared to other MMO games. It is the pipeline to the Japan servers that causes this, and nothing else.

Not true. It's just as bad here in Japan.


This is more a matter of local graphics processing, but anything that would increase server load would affect all players. One issue that FFXI had was a Japaneese player had a slight advantage claiming mobs.
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#59 Oct 20 2010 at 6:52 AM Rating: Good
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Furia wrote:
Having never really seen or played WoW, does the interface really take up 40% of your screen like that? If that is what people are expecting out of a UI overhaul in XIV, SE can consider my subscription canceled, cause that is a cluttered and disgusting eyesore.


As someone else has already explained, it's because he has all of his bag slots opened. I just wanted to throw in that I'm one of the people that love UI's with minimal clutter. WoW's open UI for customization is definitely one of the high points of the game for me. This was the UI I ran with back in January of this year before I quit in anticipation of FFXIV.

http://img254.imageshack.us/img254/2923/user1097pic217126389947.jpg

That's what's so great about WoW's UI - you can literally change it into something completely different from the default UI shipped with the game. It really does amaze me that more MMORPGs don't adopt an open UI development stance. This was something that started with EQ way back in 1999 so Blizzard didn't invent this - they simply did what they do best; they took EQ's great idea, polished it up, and re-released it in their own game.
#60 Oct 20 2010 at 6:57 AM Rating: Excellent
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I would take a game with little less better graphic but with a good UI/search fonction/AH over a awsome graphic game,Just my 2 cent.

Case in point: Minecraft has taken me completely away from FFXIV. A game that looks ****** even compared to Duke Nukem era... Nothing will ever beat a game that is actually fun, compelling, and an interface that is quick and hassle free. Even futuristic graphics don't beat that foundation of a 'real game'.
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#61 Oct 20 2010 at 7:42 AM Rating: Excellent
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Lonix wrote:
All you have to do is remember FF was designed by a hard working society compared to WoW and I will not even bother with that one.


I have been perusing through message boards since the days where I put my big-**** rotary phone receiver down on my 400 baud modem to log in to Compuserve, and this has to be one of the most ridiculous comments I have ever seen.
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#62 Oct 20 2010 at 7:44 AM Rating: Excellent
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It looks like a lot of people posting in this thread miss the entire point of the video.

It's not to point out graphical difference between games.

The point of it is to show just how long and difficult it is to sell (or do a lot of things) in FFXIV versus any modern MMO.

2:30 vs. 0:20? I play almost every MMO out there to evaluate if we will do a site for that game. FFXIV is the only game in 4+ years that I've played which takes so incredibly long to sell items. Or do anything for that matter. Crafting leves were ridiculously arduous to perform. Seven menu per synth just to get to the mini-game of crafting? The mini-game for crafting was fun. EQ2's is actually more involved and difficult and I enjoyed that system as well. My issue came with the fact that I had to do 7 menu choices at least 4 times to complete the leve. Time sinks are fine in a game, but not when they come about from an un-necessarily click happy and laggy UI.

I tried really, really hard to like FFXIV. My main game of focus is EVE Online because it's a classless game where I don't need multiple alts to play different styles. FFXIV had that appeal for me as well. One character can (eventually) do everything I need. I just couldn't stand the UI lag anymore after two weeks. I think the last straw for me was when I tried to repair all my gear myself.

Try not to devolve this thread into a wow vs. ffxiv thread. wow is used as an example because it's the most popular MMO on the market right now. It could easily have been a EQ, EQ2, Aion, LotRO, etc. vs. FFXIV selling video and it would have been exactly the same.

Selling in FFXIV could be greatly improved if there was a buyback ability, clicking with one button sold the entire stack and clicking with another button brought up a context window asking for quantity. This would work with both PC and PS3. I don't get why little UI tweaks like that are such a hard concept for SE to grasp.
#63 Oct 20 2010 at 9:10 AM Rating: Good
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The server status page has the servers at like a 250-300 ms ping at the root. So I don't know if they got their servers at a yard sale or what. They should start at more like a 20-50 ms ping.

Just the ping alone starting at 250 ms, I can only guess by the time it gets to Europe would be well over 1 second, and combined with the server authentications we're talking 2-3 second delays in interface functions.

They need regional servers, I'm sorry. It was neat playing FFXI with people from allover but when it comes down to it I would rather have a game with a 35 ms ping rather than 3000 ms.

I think regional servers would mean SE had to employ third party server controllers. Which SE's proprietary/arrogant attitude wouldn't let it happen.
#64 Oct 20 2010 at 9:52 AM Rating: Good
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KristoFurwalken wrote:
The server status page has the servers at like a 250-300 ms ping at the root. So I don't know if they got their servers at a yard sale or what. They should start at more like a 20-50 ms ping.

Just the ping alone starting at 250 ms, I can only guess by the time it gets to Europe would be well over 1 second, and combined with the server authentications we're talking 2-3 second delays in interface functions.

They need regional servers, I'm sorry. It was neat playing FFXI with people from allover but when it comes down to it I would rather have a game with a 35 ms ping rather than 3000 ms.

I think regional servers would mean SE had to employ third party server controllers. Which SE's proprietary/arrogant attitude wouldn't let it happen.


Even if they had regional servers, a 35ms ping is a pretty unreasonable hope. When I played WoW, the data center that housed the server I played on was literally a 90 minute drive from my home. 40-50ms ping was not uncommon, but nor was it the norm. The ping measured by most server status sites is measured from outside Japan. That means that a site hosted in North America showing server ping times is providing a reasonable estimation of ping times for players in that region of North America. Yes, they're high as baseline ping times for an MMO, but 1/10 of a second isn't likely to make or break anyone right now.
#65 Oct 20 2010 at 10:27 AM Rating: Excellent
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The argument stating the UI is hindered because of the PS3 doesn't fly. They're being lazy. The UI is a dispatch for back-end commands. They could develop a UI for the PC and one for the PS3 using the SAME back-end commands!!! They could even open up the back-end commands for user customization. I would then not have to run it windowed (which boggles my mind) so that I could have calculator running to determine how many more hempen cloths I have to make before I level to create more hempen cloths.

You may want nothing on your UI. I have so much real estate on my monitor that I could use a few more gauges. With the maturity of games today why are we going backwards?

How many times have you scrolled through the inventory with the arrow keys (don't tell me to use the mouse...it's the same problem) and have your position go to the first item because you hit the arrow key too many times because of lag!!!! I actually broke the keyboard's plastic foot in beta because I got frustrated and banged on the escape key.

I'm a programmer of many years. UI is the first thing your customers see. If that isn't efficient you're in trouble.

One of my best friends played FFXI for years and told me that in end game he wouldn't even considered playing the game on a PS2 so why would they still cater to a console? I loved the FF series and want this to succeed but without the constant constructive feedback this game will sink into mediocrity. It's sad to think some of these issues weren't addressed in beta and it took reviews for SE to open their eyes. Makes you wonder if feedback is actually read...
#66 Oct 20 2010 at 11:45 AM Rating: Default
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. If I'm transferring items to and from my retainer, it doesn't need to poll the server for each and every transaction.


Sure it does.

It does this to prevent any future "ps3 limitations". The limitations on the console is nearly always in RAM. Sparing that memory for lists of items (and their related objects) would be detrimental to everything else. So (I'm guessing) one of the major design goals for FFXIV was to "stream" in all these types of data so that in the future the maximum bag size isn't limited to 120 items spread across 10 different containers. Similar to how they had to jerry rig FFXI for more inventory.
#67 Oct 20 2010 at 11:52 AM Rating: Excellent
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Having never really seen or played WoW, does the interface really take up 40% of your screen like that? If that is what people are expecting out of a UI overhaul in XIV, SE can consider my subscription canceled, cause that is a cluttered and disgusting eyesore.


WoW's interface is extremely efficient and effective, having said that most WoW players also agree that the default GUI is in fact horrible ( but much better then XI's..). However due to blizzards extreme cooperation with addon developers,a GUI can be customized to virtually anything you could think of (indeed there are GUI's out there that look nothing like the default, some are quite pretty as the author clearly put a lot of effort into their art design).

For instance, my hunter had around 15 important abilities routinely used, probably 10 more situational abilities, and a few more odds 'n ends that rarely got used. Despite this, I had no buttons/action bars visible on my UI taking up space as I used an addon to key-bind every last one of them (thus there was no need to click soemthing onscreen, and therefore no clutter). The only things on my UI were Player Health/Mana bar, party member Health Health/Mana bar (only in group and I had them fairly small), inventory button (which for me was one unified box instead of seperate bags), menu, mini map, chat log. With a 1920x1080 resolution there was virtually nothing on my screen. There were actually some UI's that went to an even greater extreme of minimalism and had nothing on the play-field at all.


An early example of this UI I mentioned (before I finished customizing it): http://i529.photobucket.com/albums/dd332/Quxudaic/WoWScrnShot_080710_180724.jpg

WoW was far from perfect, there's good reasons I decided to quit. However, if one can be unbiased and realize a game is just a game without getting bogged down in fanboi-ism; then one can recognize that there are also reasons why WoW has 12 million subscribers, they did in fact get many things right. The intuitiveness of the G/UI (even the basic one) is among those things. It was crisp, clean, efficient, and when you started the game you got helpful pop up messages explaining exactly what each thing does.

One of the complaints about FFXI was that its UI was cumbersome, but at the time I didn't really mind it. FFXI was my first MMO. I quit FFXI after 4 years and moved to WoW with a very close friend, I loved it and the UI but It got tiresome and there are many things that I did not like about WoW (it's community chief among them..gah..worse the XBL). Now I have moved back Home as it were to final fantasy, sadly the UI in XIV as it stands now is worse then XI's. But hopefully it will be sorted out as the game grows.

A UI, in my opinion, should be crisp, minimal, intuitive and fast. It should tell you the info you need at a glance and allow you to perform the actions you need to perform quickly and effectively. For instance, clicking the ! symbol to open the menu to click another button to mine/activate an aetheryite/log/etc is cumbersome. There's no need for that extra step. If your near a mining node, a button should pop up that immediate starts you mining, if your near two intractable objects, you should have two different buttons on screen. Frankly I liked the way WoW handled gathering, mines and herbs had actual graphics in game that you clicked to start the action. Still the bright light method in this game does aid you in finding them so it works equally as well.

In my opinion(and this may seem inflammatory on first glance but if you read it rationally I assure you it is not so much so)the perfect MMO would be a synthesis of many of WoW's efficient UI features (which have been tweaked, tweaked, and re-tweaked over the course of 6 years or so) with FFXIV's game play. To be honest, I had really been hoping that FFXIV would also adopt WoW's notion of instanced dungeons - essentially areas your party can go into to progress through kill some bosses and what not with a small back story associated with it. It provides a nice break from the tedium of random mob grinding and also gives you a sense of purpose for being there.

Anyway those are just some of my thoughts. I am neither a FF nor WoW fanboy, I have played both games and had great times in both, to me it just seems logical to take what clearly works and roll with it or at least use it as a base for building your own version of it.
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#68 Oct 20 2010 at 12:56 PM Rating: Good
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One of my best friends played FFXI for years and told me that in end game he wouldn't even considered playing the game on a PS2 so why would they still cater to a console? I loved the FF series and want this to succeed but without the constant constructive feedback this game will sink into mediocrity. It's sad to think some of these issues weren't addressed in beta and it took reviews for SE to open their eyes. Makes you wonder if feedback is actually read...



Why indeed. Shortly after FFXI came out Sony axed the hard drive and the PS2's that could use one. Even after all these years SE still insists upon supporting the PS2 and locking everyone's game to its standards. Oh yes, a while back the PS3 lost its backward comp-ability so that isn't an option. Any other company wouldn't have bothered with a console MMO.
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#69 Oct 20 2010 at 1:23 PM Rating: Decent
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Addyyuna wrote:
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One of my best friends played FFXI for years and told me that in end game he wouldn't even considered playing the game on a PS2 so why would they still cater to a console? I loved the FF series and want this to succeed but without the constant constructive feedback this game will sink into mediocrity. It's sad to think some of these issues weren't addressed in beta and it took reviews for SE to open their eyes. Makes you wonder if feedback is actually read...



Why indeed. Shortly after FFXI came out Sony axed the hard drive and the PS2's that could use one. Even after all these years SE still insists upon supporting the PS2 and locking everyone's game to its standards. Oh yes, a while back the PS3 lost its backward comp-ability so that isn't an option. Any other company wouldn't have bothered with a console MMO.


FFXI was designed for the Ps2, the PC version was the port. It was released on Japanese Ps2 first, because 1) SE has allways been a console developer, and 2) at the time the Ps2 was more accessible. In NA it was released on PC first, so alot of people tend to think of it as a PC game. But it was a console game first and foremost.

I kinda think that was the same mindset going into the developement of FFXIV.
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