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Skill Points - InconsistenciesFollow

#1 Oct 13 2010 at 7:52 AM Rating: Good
447 posts
Looking for some insight into how skill points are earned in this game. One of the thigns that bothers me is that it's very UN-clear how they are earned. Sure, I know you earn them by killing mobs, specifically by attacking them, maybe healing party members, etc., but the logic of how the system work is not identified yet.

It really feels to me that when in parties, mele jobs are skilling up WAY faster than DoM class are. When I find myself healing more and more, I find myself getting less and less SP per battle. Take last night for example, doing a rank 20 leve, the DoW classes were raving about how great of SP they got on one mob, yet I got NONE. NONE. I actually did a little damage on the mob when I could, spammed AOE cures/sacrifice keeping the group alive; they got hundreds of SP and I got ZERO.

There's speculation that when doing aoe cures, to not use yourself as the target, but others. This leaves me so **** frustrated. Last week, they patched EXP where it would divide it up all equally, why would you not do the same for SP. Why can't SP be more defined as to how you earn it?

It frustrates me that my leveling process appears to be much lower than other classes when in party play. Sure, I can go solo, but I don't play an MMO to sit here and solo my way through the whole game.

I sure wish we had some testing done on this system.

Thoughts? Similar stories?

Edited, Oct 13th 2010 9:52am by KnocturnalOne
PL (40) CRP (32) CON (27) ALC (17) THM (15) GSM (15)

FFXI (Retired):
PLD [75] RDM [75] WAR [75] BRD [75] NIN [75] SAM [75]

#2 Oct 13 2010 at 7:59 AM Rating: Decent
398 posts
If you aren't getting any skill points, and your DoW classes are killing the enemies way too fast-

Don't use protect, don't use stoneskin, and don't use shock spikes.

Heal whenever they lose 100 HP. Target the enemy, and throw a cure on the tank -> spirit dart -> (Cure/Spirit dart)- but always throw a spirit dart in between.

My glad friend is all sad that I get a lot more SP than he does. I hit fatigue while he's still white.

Edited, Oct 13th 2010 9:59am by Meowshi
#3 Oct 13 2010 at 8:56 AM Rating: Decent
I just started playing Conjurer, and found myself very frustrated last night. I ranked up to about 7 basically spamming spirit dart (I believe that's the conjurer melee thing) on the starter mobs. At that point I decided to try out some reds (puks and dodos in La Noscea. My LS mates probably wanted to slap me, because after killing 7 red/orange puks with nukes with 0, count em, 0 skill points, I started crying on LS about what was wrong with the xp?

I decided to go knock out my rank 10 leves (I was just about 9 by this point). I was pretty angry after killing 7 Stray Dodos (and being killed by them 4 times) soloing at a 1 star difficulty. Yes dying was annoying, but I gained about 300 sp from that whole leve, with guardians aspect.

Sarcastically, I ask on LS "Are we expected to melee for xp, as mages?", and shockingly the answer was "Yes.". After my other two leves (sans guardian aspect, which seemed to guarantee that I got sp off the mobs - /cynicism), I dinged, and decided to do some testing. Yellow puks would give me about 115 sp if I nuked them down, maybe a lil bit from a couple spirit dart. Blue sheep would give me from 150-260 if I spammed spirit dart (no nukes). Rats were hit or miss... from blue to yellow, I'd get anywhere from 0-100 sp off them, mainly meleeing.

Is it possible that your elemental affinity influences the type of mob you get better xp off of?
(It might be a little hair brained, but my points are boosting wind and lightning, that's.. sheep)

Anyway, I'm new to DoW, so I'm just speculating. Any thoughts or tips would help.

I started this character at the CE launch, and played for about 2 months. Haven't touched it since.
#4 Oct 13 2010 at 9:15 AM Rating: Decent
I agree that there's a serious problem going on with rank exp in groups, but it's not limited to mages & healers. In fact, I currently play a Pugilist as my "main" melee character, and with our current group / LS makeup I usually end up playing evade tank for the fight. My boyfriend, who sits beside me, alternates between the two caster classes and plays sole healer & back up DPS... and out of our group of 5, my BF is the ONLY ONE in the group getting decent exp.

Typical scenario:
- I tank the mob, hold the aggro, do support DPS - a 2 minute fight later on one mob, and I get a whopping 30 rank exp (or, in alot of cases, NO rank exp, just 100 physical exp).
- The other melee in the group are in the same boat, getting anywhere from 0 to 100, changing randomly each fight.
- I look over at my boyfriend's screen, and from doing healing and damage, he's sitting pretty at constant 200-300 each kill, if not more.


So, the rest of the group is getting frustrated and wanting to go solo (since they'd get more exp for their time invested that way), and my poor BF wants to keep going so the EXP keeps rolling in. Even when I DPS in a fight, I'm still rocking the same 0-30 rank exp. When a mob takes FOREVER to kill (thinking giant crabs in Limsa), it all feels like a huge waste of time, especially when the mobs aren't dropping anything useful. I was really hoping the patch last week would have resolved some of these issues, but so far, I still see no reason to waste my time in a group. I'd rather go solo Dodos that give 200 average rank EXP per and take half the time to find and kill.
Dutha Dhaas - Wutai
#5 Oct 13 2010 at 12:58 PM Rating: Decent
447 posts
Glad to see I am not the only frustrated one. If you are in a party, all members should get equal amounts of SP. By having it appear that you get more SP by meleing with Spirit Dart greatly influences the way one should play Conjurer. I think that's just horrible.

PL (40) CRP (32) CON (27) ALC (17) THM (15) GSM (15)

FFXI (Retired):
PLD [75] RDM [75] WAR [75] BRD [75] NIN [75] SAM [75]

#6 Oct 13 2010 at 1:21 PM Rating: Decent
534 posts
Giving equally can create problems. 3 rank 20s and one rank 7 go out for a grind. Rank 7 has a heck of a time hitting anything hence cannot get too many skill points. Rank 7 should not get an equal amount that the rank 20s get per kill. right? Making a move as blanket as making things equal for everyone won't work. does SE fix this problem? Over time they will see how the speed of the different jobs are leveling and make adjustments. Game has been out for a few its probably a bit soon to make such adjustments. Especially when there are a lot bigger problems to deal with. They put the pieces on the board...but who knows how they are going to use those pieces. I mean seriously...a blink tank? Do you think they envisioned that when building the ninja? If so..bravo to them...well..not really, but I hope you see what I'm saying.

They will make adjustments if they see us playing the jobs how they intended and one is getting the shaft.

Amos Fin - Ultros

#7 Oct 13 2010 at 1:33 PM Rating: Good
1,636 posts
Giving equally can create problems. 3 rank 20s and one rank 7 go out for a grind. Rank 7 has a heck of a time hitting anything hence cannot get too many skill points. Rank 7 should not get an equal amount that the rank 20s get per kill. right? Making a move as blanket as making things equal for everyone won't work.

No, that would be dumb. They could go ahead and use the system they had in FFXI to prevent that. Other games use it to. you only get XP when the mob killed is +/- X levels from you.

#8 Oct 13 2010 at 1:58 PM Rating: Good
364 posts
I think they were trying to avoid the complications of a dedicated "Level Sync" system. The random SP (with no major penalty for wide level gaps) and "equip anything at any level" systems seem to reflect this. Ultimately, I think most people would have preferred the more traditional approaches--another case of attempting to fix something that wasn't really broken.
#9 Oct 13 2010 at 2:27 PM Rating: Decent
14 posts
yeah, I was patient and was interested in this system. But it just seems busted. Im confused about how they thought anything positive would outweigh the negatives. Its inconsistent, extremely unbalanced. It forces people to only play a certain way. You can mix rotations up but in reality you'll always leave many skills out. Until End game where skilling up is no longer an issue. Otherwise even using horizontal skills gets in the way of lvling current class... I mean sure you could do it, but takes 2x longer then if you just spam 1 or 2 skills. And if you dont have issues with dieing fast casting any kind of dots even shields is just pointless since the longer the fight the more sp. Who cares about exp; it drops off trees like candy. Further more this forces people to play over and over and over on mobs x4 times longer then they ever would care to. (the system)
Seriously at this point they might as well go traditional and give a set sp n xp per a kill...but then whats the point of an sp system.. *sigh. I thought Japanese were smart with all this number stuff. -major fail-. I haven't even bothered to check if the xp has been lvled out in encounters now for party like they said they fixed.. But id rather have the sp reworked. I mean if you run constant groups if your not playing efficiently you can actually fall behind the rest of the group. (static parties). I love the game - I just hope they figure something out. Its in no way casual as they said it would be. Far from it, tedious is the word. and us HC players have to actually work x2 harder at a huge handicap in about everyway. I was guna lvl a 2nd character since you really wont have room for gear etc later on. But decided not to since it just doesn't seem to be a smooth system at all. If I see another marmot or dodo my eyes will bleed out. Its just completely tedious and illogical. Certain classed DO lvl much faster then others. I think the only way to fix is to make Sp static, not unbalanced, by chance,..that just leads to the faster you can spam and the faster your moves are the more SP. (I know this all fits into there whole play at a pace penalty thing) and this just shows how that is once again actually harming the game.
#10 Oct 13 2010 at 2:46 PM Rating: Decent
14 posts
forgot to add I agree with the mages not really using spells to lvl. I mean grab your rank 7 wand...Thaumaturge for example; spam darts (2 darts can do more then your best spell and is as fast or faster.) You will kill mobs in 3-5 shots and 3 times faster. When you get Damnation you simply spam darts and use Damnation as TP dump. (It hits harder then most spells anyways so far from my experience.) Course you can infinitely heal because Damnation will return the mana lost from it. The only thing that could slow you down is if you felt like lvling guard (shield).
Im sure this would'nt work forever; then again maybe it would lol. Because spamming darts with a up to rank wpn hits for same amount that as spell could. At least time wise. Definitely more up to 20. No point in casting at all unless you have a sub rank wpn. (really its like they through this inter system together from 5 or 6 different sources that never coordinated at all. All they time they have spent working on it and its just has huge faults. I mean those of us that love the game can even exploit or maximize all the easier with it. But if you ask me it takes the fun and immersion completely out of the game.
Tanks having to keep guard up every 15 sec if you ask me is hilarious. I can even begin to explain how much it interferes with mainting agro and paying attention to all the things you have to do as a tank. (I mean you dont even get a decent hate build move for the shield until lvl 30!; only reason to use it is to negate some dmg and to skill it up. (For 30 lvls remind you; and its sloooooow.) You could make macros but whats the point, they never fired off right with the lag in this system. I have days with no problems or I might have to compensate sometimes, but then I have days where getting a move off is not as easy as pressing a button...Sometimes you have to cross your fingers that the skills are going off at all. Then you have the mobs you fight for 2 min that suddenly get weird patching and get all there health back.... Anyway apologies getting way off topic. (common SE a lil help). If they cant fix this system that actually is probably far to complicated; they have to change it to a old school static system. Wtf were they trying to different? All they have done is released a game that seems like the entire battle system wasn't even ready.
#11 Oct 13 2010 at 2:46 PM Rating: Decent
398 posts
It's an RMT / Powerleveling thing!

The way it works now, you will by definition, get an average SP / mob you kill based on how much you actively participate! If you get 500 SP one battle, you can be like "Sweet! I got 500 SP!~". However, when you get 50 SP on one battle, even though you actually average ~275, you're going to be like, "Hey! Wtf! I only got 275!"

When in actuality, you've gotten an average of 275. The bads make you see the bads a lot more than you see the goods!

Since you have an average, if the average is good enough, there is no problem here! It's based on how much you actively participate in the battle!

Lets say you have an over-achiever and an under-achiever! The over-achiever gets 400SP average, and the underachiever gets 100SP average. This is intended because the under-achiever contributes less to the battle!

If we have AFK powerleveler and overachiever in something like World of Warcraft's system, the AFKer gets exp even though he never touched the monster at all!
#12 Oct 13 2010 at 2:53 PM Rating: Decent
2,742 posts
Agree 100% with the shield problem. Whats the point of having to use Guard >.<; I equipped a shield, it means I meant to use it.
FFXIV: Karamethien Seraphus (Blog)

FFXI: Karamethien
Still a Seraph Samurai Wanna Be
Fishing AF - Complete, SAM AF - Complete, RNG Af - Complete, RDM AF - 1/6
#13 Oct 13 2010 at 3:11 PM Rating: Excellent
216 posts
When I'm playing conjurer I never touch my damage spells. Ever. Not when soloing, and not when grouped.

I can do 2-3 Spirit Dart attacks in the time it takes to cast a spell, and those cost me 0MP to do. The relatively rare instance where I would gain SP from using a damage spell results in only a little more SP than a single Spirit Dart, so there's little point to doing anything else.

Healing gives a nice chunk of SP when grouped, but it's not all that common that you actually gain SP from giving a heal. I haven't parsed it, but I'd estimate I gain SP from healing less than 10% of the time.

This isn't just a problem with mages though.

On a 19 DoW I soloed a Thickshell and received 225 Experience Points, 140 Skill Points.
Immediately after the fight, I killed a blue Firefly.
From the Firefly, I received 3 Experience Points, 53 Skill Points.

The Thickshell was orange to me and took 39 hits to kill, plus the damage my Shock Spikes did.
The Firefly was blue to me and took 9 hits to kill.

One mob hits for ~190dmg per hit, the other for ~20dmg.

I could give plenty more examples of this, as could anyone else who has played the game.

Risk vs reward simply does not exist under the current SP gain system.
You gain better SP from mass killing blue mobs that are 10 levels below you and have zero chance of killing you than you do from killing mobs that actually pose a challenge. SE needs to change this. They also need to add a base amount of SP from every mob, so that you never walk away having gained 0SP.

Edited, Oct 13th 2010 5:13pm by theweenie
#14 Oct 13 2010 at 6:34 PM Rating: Decent
89 posts

mage after mage ****** and moans about their lack of SP they get.....and im one of them.

However after alot of testing today i found some help (upgrade your weapon if you can, doesnt effect the proc of skill up but does the amount)

Now in a party for some reason people moan that healing/curing is gimping us, but its not, it is the single best way to gain skill!

Im talking from a rank 26 THA and there is a trick to it :)

Let your melee get to yellow/red life then cure, you get ALOT of skill. All day today i was grinding hippos getting 0-60 skill a kill, but then after testing out on thickshells this curing thing it worked! We went onto Ant diggers where i was getting 300ish skill a fight and that was duo!

Now all i need to do is find a mob with a reasonable AoE and BAMN! honistly think u could hit ALOT of SP.

Seriously though, go out test it with a friend, wait til they are yellow/orange cure and repeat :)
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