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About not having an Auction House.Follow

#1 Oct 13 2010 at 6:56 PM Rating: Decent
Like many others here I also came from years of playing Final Fantasy XI and enjoyed most of my time with that game.
Yes I am a bit peeved there is no AH among other things but I don't think many people have thought about just how irritating an AH would be at this point. A lot of people are already complaining about having to navigate through a ton of menus just to do general/basic things.
Now imagine trying to shop at the Auction House....

It seems like every item has a NQ and then a +1, +2, +3 version to go along with it.
So that is what every item x4... Now yes I know people would have to make the item first, yes.
However we all should know what happens after that, people rush to the AH to sell it to their self to brag, show-off, etc.
That leads to the AH item spots filling up more with the HQ variations with none being sold, more items to scroll through.
Then who knows how they would do the menus for the AH, while it seems reasonable to leave it the same I doubt they would.
More then likely we would have to choose <Body>, then choose between - "Attire", "Full Plate", "Hooded Attire", or "War Garb". Similar to YG.
This would just cause people to grow even more upset, I know the retainer system is terrible but I think an AH would be worse right now.

With all the other current issues, UI lag, no sort option, the inability to scroll the items by pressing the Left or Right arrow keys or D-Pad directions. Having an AH without those basics being settled would just incite another riot...
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#2 Oct 13 2010 at 7:03 PM Rating: Good
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The +1 system is no excuse to not have an AH. They've had years to develop a creative solution to incorporate the +1 system into an AH layout. We don't have an AH not because of a cumbersome category layout. Rather we don't have an AH because SE wanted to develop a new method for buying and selling items. They vastly overestimated the usefulness of the market wards and are beginning realize it. Only time will tell if they can develop it into a fully functional player market place.

#3 Oct 13 2010 at 7:29 PM Rating: Good
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what worries me about the no-AH decision as well as some other design decisions, is that SE appears to have made these choices based on a strange pursuit of "realism"

realism =/= fun
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#4 Oct 13 2010 at 7:41 PM Rating: Decent
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I hope no one is trying to use "realism" to defend the current retainer/ward system instead of having an AH. Walking into small rooms with non-responsive mannequins packed like sardines that you "buy" stuff from is not "realistic" in any way...
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#5 Oct 13 2010 at 8:03 PM Rating: Default
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The funny thing he is that it only takes a bit of social activity to actually find what you are looking for.

Most common places to look for things are actually at the guilds these specific things are made at. Its not really a complicated matter and infact benefits everyone. You can't ignore the market and an AH would just saturate everything beyond doubt. Those high priced items would drop by a large margin and crafting would be less viable. Sure maybe easier cause you could find those parts cheap, but that takes away from a nice piece of equipment IMHO.

My friend whose playing a Marauder has yet to have any issue with finding the latest and greatest gear. Unlike most games, the equipment isn't really the breaking point and subtle upgrades make a big diffrence. If you have a hard time finding an item. Try social networking, it works great.
#6 Oct 13 2010 at 8:11 PM Rating: Decent
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Dartagon wrote:
Most common places to look for things are actually at the guilds these specific things are made at. Its not really a complicated matter and infact benefits everyone. You can't ignore the market and an AH would just saturate everything beyond doubt. Those high priced items would drop by a large margin and crafting would be less viable. Sure maybe easier cause you could find those parts cheap, but that takes away from a nice piece of equipment IMHO.


What about something like arrows that are very consumable and require multiple crafting skills 10 levels higher than the arrow level? Should those be such a pain to gather ingredients for?

For that awesome piece of armor, sure, make the ingredients hard to find. But I don't want to spend hours hopping between cities looking for things like arrows or basic gear and weapons.

We don't need a global AH. Keep them city specific like FFXI. I'd even be happy with an NPC that will buy an item for you from a bazaar in any of the city's market wards for an additional fee. But I'm not going to search every guild, market ward, and crafting hub for any little item I want. It's literally faster to harvest materials and craft an item yourself than to try to buy it from another player.

Edited, Oct 13th 2010 9:11pm by Hydragyrum

Edited, Oct 13th 2010 9:12pm by Hydragyrum
#7TheRealLusent, Posted: Oct 13 2010 at 8:12 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Again the reason for no AH is because SE is making $$$ off each additional retainer you use over the single one free you get. So can we stop crying over there being no AH now. And no they are not adding an AH in the next update whom ever thought that was being added drinks more then me
#8 Oct 13 2010 at 8:13 PM Rating: Default
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Yes and No.

Essentially, you could probably just global broadcast that you are buying X arrows and X price and someone will reply, if nobody does, its probably because you are being cheap.

AH do nothing but flood the market and saturate games, nothings good comes from an AH except free money to those who understand it.

The AH concept is flawed by design.
#9 Oct 13 2010 at 8:13 PM Rating: Default
Awesome, I was just pointing out a possibility about not having an AH now and I get rated down.
I guess people won't / can't accept anything these days, also I never said the HQ items were an excuse.
I said "think" about i, I would hope that wasn't too hard for most people to do.

If they had it in the game as it currently stands people would b*itch about sifting through all the AH items to find what they wanted.
I never said it was okay to NOT have an AH.

Also I agree, social networking works great for most things in this game.
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#10 Oct 13 2010 at 8:15 PM Rating: Good
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Dartagon wrote:
Yes and No.

Essentially, you could probably just global broadcast that you are buying X arrows and X price and someone will reply, if nobody does, its probably because you are being cheap.

AH do nothing but flood the market and saturate games, nothings good comes from an AH except free money to those who understand it.

The AH concept is flawed by design.


But market wards are a better design? If you're so against an AH, what would you develop that is convenient and fast for the players who don't want to play economics 101 but would rather go out and slaughter marmots? Or are you saying that if you aren't willing to devote 50% of your play time to buying and selling goods that this isn't the game for you?
#11 Oct 13 2010 at 8:26 PM Rating: Default
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Not at all, but if you are spending 50% of your time buying an item...well you're doing something wrong or on a low pop server? I dont know.

What item are you looking for? Is the item readily available? you assume the AH will increase availability but could actually be the other way around.

Its really hard to forsee what an AH will do, most cases, and prolly the best example is yes, Iknow, a diffrent game. WoW. The AH system honestly owned the economy. Nothing has any value and most of the stuff is available for dirt cheap.

Essentially you setup a stock market without any control, enabling people with money to prosper and those without to fall way behind. Its an unfair concept without proper legislation in place to prevent people from taking advantage of a flawed system.

I dont even use market wards to buy my gear so I cant comment. I choose the human interaction to find my gear. I usualy say something like. "Looking for x item paying y price. PST with info. Sometimes ill get a whisper to whisper another guy, sometimes I just get straight offers. I really hope they leave the current system as is. I really like the idea of no AH.
#12 Oct 13 2010 at 8:44 PM Rating: Good
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When I wanted to make my own rank 12 smithing hammer I checked every bazaar I saw and shouted for the undyed canvas. I finally found it a day or two after searching. Then I needed the hammer grip. Again I searched, shouted, even sent tells to people I saw using a saw. Eventually someone responded and made me a few and I was able to make my hammer.

Several hours of searching for ingredients a rank 12 item. I only get 3 hours per night if I'm lucky.

I propose this question. In 6 months time when the average player is rank 30+ do you think people will be wasting their precious 10 bazaar slots for low rank ingredients? Do you think a level 30 crafter is going to respond to a shout offering 10k gil to make a bronze gladius? What about when new cities open up and the players spread out. It sorta kinda works now because we're all within 10 ranks of each other. But when the ranks spread out it's only going to be harder to find things.

I don't want a WoW AH clone. I don't even care if its a Jeuno AH clone. But there has to be a centralized search AND buy feature somehow. Even if I can ask an NPC where a certain item is it won't help unless I can buy it through that NPC.
#13 Oct 13 2010 at 8:49 PM Rating: Decent
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oh also i'm 20PGL and have had almost no trouble finding good gear for all my classes. in fact it was kind of fun tracking some of it down. ***** the AH, it is 100% not a priority when stacked up against UI lag, and a dearth of content.
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#14 Oct 13 2010 at 8:57 PM Rating: Good
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Dartagon wrote:
Not at all, but if you are spending 50% of your time buying an item...well you're doing something wrong or on a low pop server? I dont know.

What item are you looking for? Is the item readily available? you assume the AH will increase availability but could actually be the other way around.

Its really hard to forsee what an AH will do, most cases, and prolly the best example is yes, Iknow, a diffrent game. WoW. The AH system honestly owned the economy. Nothing has any value and most of the stuff is available for dirt cheap.

Essentially you setup a stock market without any control, enabling people with money to prosper and those without to fall way behind. Its an unfair concept without proper legislation in place to prevent people from taking advantage of a flawed system.

I dont even use market wards to buy my gear so I cant comment. I choose the human interaction to find my gear. I usualy say something like. "Looking for x item paying y price. PST with info. Sometimes ill get a whisper to whisper another guy, sometimes I just get straight offers. I really hope they leave the current system as is. I really like the idea of no AH.


What do you think this current system is? This is a market with no control. You have no idea what anything is worth. This is market chaos. Your saying an AH where you know what is selling for what price is taking advantage of people? But buying blindly and not knowing if there is someone else selling the exact same thing for 1/2 the price is better? Running around and yelling out I need this and hopping someone answer is a better system? This running around yelling reaky suck when you factor in the time people play, the level they are at, and server population. People are spending to much time looking for stuff in this dark age economy they currently have. Visit a market ward and see how little there is going on there. The fact people aren't using it should tell you that this system is worthless because people aren't using it.
#15 Oct 13 2010 at 9:15 PM Rating: Default
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I guess I fail to comprehend why it has to be that easy to find items?

Why does anything have to be easy? Its your perspective that easy makes it more fun, or more enjoyable.
#16 Oct 13 2010 at 9:22 PM Rating: Excellent
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What item are you looking for? Is the item readily available? you assume the AH will increase availability but could actually be the other way around.

That's a bit like claiming that faster broadband will reduce demand for premium video services. Economics is essentially a behavioral science - make something easier to use and more efficient to use and people will use it more.

You can't ignore the market and an AH would just saturate everything beyond doubt. Those high priced items would drop by a large margin and crafting would be less viable. Sure maybe easier cause you could find those parts cheap, but that takes away from a nice piece of equipment IMHO.


There's always money to be made - inflated prices due to difficulty of shopping doesn't make things fairer, it simply exploits the buyers. And in the long run, kills crafting anyway as people aren't going to pay extra time and effort to subsidize crafters that want basic economic to apply to them. What you get for an item in an open economy is always going to trend towards the fixed and marginal costs, whether the crafter likes it or not. And I say that as a person who did a lot of crafting for profit in XI.

Edited, Oct 13th 2010 11:26pm by DSzymborski
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#17 Oct 13 2010 at 9:22 PM Rating: Good
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Dartagon wrote:
I guess I fail to comprehend why it has to be that easy to find items?

Why does anything have to be easy? Its your perspective that easy makes it more fun, or more enjoyable.


Yes, I think buying the vast amount of materials needed for most crafting recipes should be easy. If I have to spend my entire night (2-3 hours) hunting down the ingredients for ONE item, that is not fun. That's tedious. I might be ok with it if after that one time hunting I knew exactly where to look again, but this market system is non-permanent. I'd have to spend hours again if I wanted to repeat that synth a few days later.

You really think it should take hours to buy simple items from players? Is that really enjoyable to you?
#18 Oct 13 2010 at 9:35 PM Rating: Excellent
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I guess I fail to comprehend why it has to be that easy to find items?

Nobody's saying that anything in the game should be easy to get, but the challenges of a game should, as much as possible, be:

A) Reasonably proportional to the reward.
B) Consistent with the challenge being related to the goals of playing a game.

Ubersword +3 should be pretty hard to get. But the challenge should be the rarity of the materials or the amount of time needed to assemble Ubersword +3. The challenge of clicking on hundreds identical, slow-loading laggy UI muted retainers isn't game-related or proportional to the reward - finding materials for a level 1 craft or a level 10 job can be just as nightmarish.

It's also not game-related challenge, this is not a shopping simulator or a scratch-and-win ticket - an inadequate infrastructure isn't a game-related challenge, it's simply poor planning. A craft system in which there's a programmed 1-in-5 chance of everything in your inventory being destroyed would also quite a challenge, but it wouldn't be good, logical, or reasonable on any level.

****, why not complain all these macros and keyboard shortcuts are destroying the challenge of the game? All commands and movements should have to be entered in by text command like playing an old King's Quest game. GIVE PORRIDGE TO STAR MARMOT

Edited, Oct 13th 2010 11:37pm by DSzymborski
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#19 Oct 13 2010 at 9:45 PM Rating: Excellent
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Dartagon wrote:
I guess I fail to comprehend why it has to be that easy to find items?

Why does anything have to be easy? Its your perspective that easy makes it more fun, or more enjoyable.


I would counter with: Why does the game have to be as intentionally obtuse as possible? It's not a question of easy vs hard, it's a question of "straightforward" vs "unnecessarily time consuming".

If you have to go to the grocery store to buy a dozen eggs and a gallon of milk, would you rather:

- Go to the egg aisle, look at egg prices, grab some eggs, go to the milk aisle, look at milk prices, grab some milk, leave store in 10 minutes

Or, would you rather...

- Wander around the store, checking every single shelf in every single aisle, hoping to even FIND milk OR eggs, and then hope to find a good price on them, eventually emerging from the store over an hour later

I mean, the most common complaints against implementing a way to get items in a more straightforward matter are either that the person "hasn't spent that much time in the market wards so I don't see what the big deal is" or that "I don't mind spending hours looking for deals". In the end, the ultimate question is: Why do you want to play a game that is designed in such a way as to make it as difficult as possible for you to find and get what you want? What is the huge benefit of forcing players who are playing an MMORPG (which is a giant time sink already) to suffer through a time sink within a time sink every time they want to buy or sell an item. So many people want to go to bat for "casual players" and how "A game shouldn't require hours of time to find a party" or "A game shouldn't require hours of time to grind", so what is the huge obsession over wanting the game to require hours of time just to buy and sell things?

It seems to me like the people who are against ease of use just want the game to be set up in such a way that it forces nearly all of the players to get fed up and quit, so that the ones who are left can sit around and circle jerk themselves over how they've managed to not be driven off by terrible game mechanics.

The question that I keep asking myself is: Why is it that some people are so adamantly opposed to making the game easier for people on a shorter time frame, or just more straightforward in general? Why is it that people actually WANT the game's negative aspects to stay? The only fathomable reason I can come up with is the one I mentioned above; that they want the game to be as insanely overcomplicated as possible so that they can pat themselves on the back for how awesome they are for putting up with it among all of the people who just want something that's not a giant Rube Goldberg device.

Do you hold your computer's mouse upside down, because sliding it on a flat surface makes using the computer too easy?
Do you walk over to your TV to change the volume and channels because a remote makes it too easy?
Do you eat with your hands behind your back because using them would make eating too easy?
Do you drive your car from the passenger seat because sitting in the driver's seat would make driving too easy?

This isn't a question of the game being easy vs hard; it's a question about it being intuitive versus clunky. Making the game -easier to use- is not the same as making it -easy-.
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#20Maulsont, Posted: Oct 14 2010 at 1:50 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) I am so entertained right now! Good post. I love your general sense of anger when you're posting. You've been pretty adamant about complaining about not having an auction house. I respect adamance! (not a word.)
#21 Oct 14 2010 at 1:55 AM Rating: Good
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Maulsont wrote:
Also, I think your posting-from location says "are" when it should "all belongs".


Your license to use teh internets are supsended.

Edited, Oct 14th 2010 3:56am by XelKarin
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#22Maulsont, Posted: Oct 14 2010 at 2:30 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Well, the joke's on you because I steal my internet license from my neighbor.
#23 Oct 14 2010 at 8:31 AM Rating: Excellent
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Dartagon wrote:
I guess I fail to comprehend why it has to be that easy to find items?

Why does anything have to be easy? Its your perspective that easy makes it more fun, or more enjoyable.


I know I always say that everyone is entitled to have fun in their own way but jeez. Searching through countless mannequins to find something that may not even be there is not a challenge. Having something be needlessly difficult is not a challenge. I'm an open minded person when it comes to these things but I just don't see how that could possibly be fun to anyone. It certainly isn't fun to enough people to justify keeping it as it is. This is a game. Everything shouldn't be easy, sure. But that doesn't mean even the most trivial things have to be turned into some epic quest.
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#24 Oct 14 2010 at 8:45 AM Rating: Good
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All the justification in the world doesn't take away from one very important point:

You need a working "marketplace" to have a balanced market. You need a searchable system to have proper supply/demand and price points. Economically speaking, a game without an AH is simply not on the same field of economic existence as a game with an AH.

Too many people are stuck on the idea that FFXIV's AH should have every item listed like FFXI's AH. That is a crippling notion. FFXIV's system was fine, until they added more and more items to the game, and eventually it became tedious. It was hard to find something (if you didn't know what category it was in... or sometimes even if you did!).

FFXIV needs an AH to be a fully functional MMORPG. Period. Right now you're all paying to play SE's premature baby. A few more months on an incubator and it should be just about ready. I have my $50 waiting for that day.
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#25 Oct 14 2010 at 8:48 AM Rating: Excellent
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The Glorious DeadlyLust wrote:
Dartagon wrote:
I guess I fail to comprehend why it has to be that easy to find items?

Why does anything have to be easy? Its your perspective that easy makes it more fun, or more enjoyable.


I know I always say that everyone is entitled to have fun in their own way but jeez. Searching through countless mannequins to find something that may not even be there is not a challenge. Having something be needlessly difficult is not a challenge. I'm an open minded person when it comes to these things but I just don't see how that could possibly be fun to anyone. It certainly isn't fun to enough people to justify keeping it as it is. This is a game. Everything shouldn't be easy, sure. But that doesn't mean even the most trivial things have to be turned into some epic quest.


This is a common ailment amongst FFXI veterans. I used to think this way a LONGGG time ago. If something isn't hard, it's not worth doing, right?

But they get "hard" and "tedious" mixed up. There is nothing "hard" about sifting through pages and pages of items to find the one you want - it is just an inefficient, tiresome, dreary task. If you think that makes a game hard (or fun) you need to take stock of your priorities and interests and ask yourself if you've been letting SE define your "fun" (or waste your hours) for too long.
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#26 Oct 14 2010 at 8:50 AM Rating: Excellent
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Dartagon wrote:
Not at all, but if you are spending 50% of your time buying an item...well you're doing something wrong or on a low pop server? I dont know.

What item are you looking for? Is the item readily available? you assume the AH will increase availability but could actually be the other way around.

Its really hard to forsee what an AH will do, most cases, and prolly the best example is yes, Iknow, a diffrent game. WoW. The AH system honestly owned the economy. Nothing has any value and most of the stuff is available for dirt cheap.


Essentially you setup a stock market without any control, enabling people with money to prosper and those without to fall way behind. Its an unfair concept without proper legislation in place to prevent people from taking advantage of a flawed system.

I dont even use market wards to buy my gear so I cant comment. I choose the human interaction to find my gear. I usualy say something like. "Looking for x item paying y price. PST with info. Sometimes ill get a whisper to whisper another guy, sometimes I just get straight offers. I really hope they leave the current system as is. I really like the idea of no AH.


That has nothing to do with the WoW AH and everything to do with game design. Almost all of the good gear is BOP and acquired only via raiding or with badges you earn while raiding. Each raid boss drops only one BOE item that can be sold on the AH (and these actually sell for quite a bit), and all of the crafted gear is just level 80 starter gear that doesn't carry much value.

Then you look at things like consumables. You can take any craft to max level in a few days in WoW so long as you are willing to commit a couple k gold to it. With so many people able to make these items, there's just too much supply for there to be much profit in it.

You can still make a lot of money with the AH on WoW, just not through trying to craft and sell items. You either have to farm and sell raw materials or just play the AH (my personal method).
#27 Oct 14 2010 at 8:59 AM Rating: Good
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Dartagon wrote:
I guess I fail to comprehend why it has to be that easy to find items?

Why does anything have to be easy? Its your perspective that easy makes it more fun, or more enjoyable.



Having to search for items the way it's currently set up is not difficult, it's just tedious. There's a huge difference. You say that like it's a process that takes more time than it should because you are overcoming some worthwhile challenge, when in actuality you're just wasting time on a tedious and slow process that could be made much more efficient. I'm all for games that are more challenging (i.e. NOT WoW), but pointless and unrewarding challenges are an empty way to fulfill that desire.

Now whichever direction they want to take that, whether AH or some other method, I don't care. But regardless a change needs to occur.


Note: Not trying to call you out or be rude, I hope you don't take offense!
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#28 Oct 14 2010 at 9:16 AM Rating: Decent
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Swagtronica the Lion Hearted wrote:
Awesome, I was just pointing out a possibility about not having an AH now and I get rated down.
I guess people won't / can't accept anything these days, also I never said the HQ items were an excuse.
I said "think" about i, I would hope that wasn't too hard for most people to do.

If they had it in the game as it currently stands people would b*itch about sifting through all the AH items to find what they wanted.
I never said it was okay to NOT have an AH.

Also I agree, social networking works great for most things in this game.



I rated you up ^^
I thought the post was well written and made a good point

I would actually just prefer a retainer search system at this point that didn't mean checking 50+ retainers for 1
item that possible might be in a ward that's all.
#29 Oct 14 2010 at 9:27 AM Rating: Decent
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I do wonder how many retainers can be placed in a ward. lastnight i went to place mine in the 1st ward and couldnt cuz the ward was to full on retainers. now if there say only about a 100 retainers can be placed in a ward it going to be a major waest time looking thru all the retainers to find one item...
#30 Oct 14 2010 at 9:34 AM Rating: Decent
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Hydragyrum wrote:
The +1 system is no excuse to not have an AH. They've had years to develop a creative solution to incorporate the +1 system into an AH layout. We don't have an AH not because of a cumbersome category layout. Rather we don't have an AH because SE wanted to develop a new method for buying and selling items. They vastly overestimated the usefulness of the market wards and are beginning realize it. Only time will tell if they can develop it into a fully functional player market place.



and even retainer/bazaar are not that new of a system they been used in older games before
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