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Crafting does not make senseFollow

#1 Oct 14 2010 at 10:58 AM Rating: Decent
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I want to make a new hammer for blacksmith. A level 7 hammer, the recipe calls for a hammer head that requires level 11 blacksmith... I'm stupefied.
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#2 Oct 14 2010 at 11:00 AM Rating: Good
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Sometimes final assembly of items is easier than crafting components. SE has taken a lets emulate the real world approach. To compare: It's harder to forge a hammer head out of metal than it is to jam the hammer head on a dowel and add some glue.
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#3 Oct 14 2010 at 11:02 AM Rating: Default
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it is not harder in the real world if you are a blacksmith and know how to forge a hammer head in a real world sense.
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#4 Oct 14 2010 at 11:08 AM Rating: Good
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Seventhblood wrote:
it is not harder in the real world if you are a blacksmith and know how to forge a hammer head in a real world sense.


That doesn't make sense, are you seriously saying there's no difficulty gap between metal forging and metal assembly? In the real world it's a lot more difficult to forge something out of metal than is to glue components together. Real world blacksmiths train and apprentice for years before they become smiths.

Edited, Oct 14th 2010 1:08pm by DomfranciscoOfIfrit
#5 Oct 14 2010 at 11:09 AM Rating: Decent
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It's still backwards to need to exceed the tool's rank to make the tool for use. It almost defeats the purpose since after all that effort there's a better tool one rank later. But I suppose Blacksmithing is the only class that gets screwed directly over in such a fashion since you're the class the makes most of the tools in the first place, including your own.

I enjoy most of the crafting system, but it does have its odd quirks. The OP's situation is a good example. That's like telling me I need to learn how to build a house before I can learn how to make the wooden boards I used to construct it.
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#6 Oct 14 2010 at 11:13 AM Rating: Decent
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This whole conversation is ridiculous. I play a game to escape the "real world". No wonder why so many view this game as WORK. Its unbelievable, all I can think of when I walk into these crafting areas, is "sweat-shops".
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#7 Oct 14 2010 at 11:27 AM Rating: Good
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I agree i just want to make a fantasy hammer to make fantasy items.
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#8 Oct 14 2010 at 11:57 AM Rating: Good
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I actually think it's a way that will keep high level players interacting with the lower level players and so that prices don't sky rocket infinitely as level scales.

This is one example:

Rank 1 Blacksmith can put together a saw.
Rank 20 Blacksmith can make the nails/rivets required.

Rank 20 will make the nails for cheap skill ups or to get rid of the excess low level material they picked up.
Ideally they'll sell them on for a few gil to lower levels to shift them (in reality if there is a shortage, like now, people will charge an arm and a leg, but I like to be optimistic, and also thinking about later when there are many more high level crafters).

Also hopefully the high level crafters will twig that selling such materials used in low level synths for a high price isn't feasible as it results in a low level item (not worth much) and also that the lower levelled players won't have that sort of gil. (Ideally they'll also do it to help out what's left of the community... I was promised a community when I came to FFXIV damnit.)

Low level Blacksmith will but the materials and crank out saws for skill ups and sell them at a reasonable price as again they will not be worth that much.


It also means that come end game, the community doesn't revolve around people only making high level crafts/materials and not bothering with lower level stuff, thus making it harder for newcomers who would then need to do everything themself, or facing an overpriced market for the little that is left.

I know it seems backwards, but given the experience I've had with WoW crafting at end game, I think this system is quite clever.

Or maybe I've just got the wrong end of the saw? *shrug*
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#9 Oct 14 2010 at 12:00 PM Rating: Default
Edited by bsphil
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Kreisash wrote:
I actually think it's a way that will keep high level players interacting with the lower level players and so that prices don't sky rocket infinitely as level scales.

This is one example:

Rank 1 Blacksmith can put together a saw.
Rank 20 Blacksmith can make the nails/rivets required.

Rank 20 will make the nails for cheap skill ups or to get rid of the excess low level material they picked up.
Ideally they'll sell them on for a few gil to lower levels to shift them (in reality if there is a shortage, like now, people will charge an arm and a leg, but I like to be optimistic, and also thinking about later when there are many more high level crafters).

Also hopefully the high level crafters will twig that selling such materials used in low level synths for a high price isn't feasible as it results in a low level item (not worth much) and also that the lower levelled players won't have that sort of gil. (Ideally they'll also do it to help out what's left of the community... I was promised a community when I came to FFXIV damnit.)

Low level Blacksmith will but the materials and crank out saws for skill ups and sell them at a reasonable price as again they will not be worth that much.


It also means that come end game, the community doesn't revolve around people only making high level crafts/materials and not bothering with lower level stuff, thus making it harder for newcomers who would then need to do everything themself, or facing an overpriced market for the little that is left.

I know it seems backwards, but given the experience I've had with WoW crafting at end game, I think this system is quite clever.

Or maybe I've just got the wrong end of the saw? *shrug*
This would all be nice if the market ward system wasn't in complete shambles. With an AH it would be great.
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#10 Oct 14 2010 at 12:09 PM Rating: Default
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While we are on the subject of retardation, i would like to pose a question to anyone who cares to listen.

In these games, the higher lvl the metal the higher level you must be to craft it.

So:
In the real world, is it not the same process to make a sword/hammer/fork/insertrandomobject out of iron as it is brass? copper? steel? etc, etc, etc.

Why do you have to be 20 lvls higher to make a sword out of iron than one of copper?

Major flaw in logic it seems.

#11 Oct 14 2010 at 12:13 PM Rating: Good
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Kreisash wrote:
I actually think it's a way that will keep high level players interacting with the lower level players and so that prices don't sky rocket infinitely as level scales.

This is one example:

Rank 1 Blacksmith can put together a saw.
Rank 20 Blacksmith can make the nails/rivets required.

Rank 20 will make the nails for cheap skill ups or to get rid of the excess low level material they picked up.
Ideally they'll sell them on for a few gil to lower levels to shift them (in reality if there is a shortage, like now, people will charge an arm and a leg, but I like to be optimistic, and also thinking about later when there are many more high level crafters).

Also hopefully the high level crafters will twig that selling such materials used in low level synths for a high price isn't feasible as it results in a low level item (not worth much) and also that the lower levelled players won't have that sort of gil. (Ideally they'll also do it to help out what's left of the community... I was promised a community when I came to FFXIV damnit.)

Low level Blacksmith will but the materials and crank out saws for skill ups and sell them at a reasonable price as again they will not be worth that much.


It also means that come end game, the community doesn't revolve around people only making high level crafts/materials and not bothering with lower level stuff, thus making it harder for newcomers who would then need to do everything themself, or facing an overpriced market for the little that is left.

I know it seems backwards, but given the experience I've had with WoW crafting at end game, I think this system is quite clever.

Or maybe I've just got the wrong end of the saw? *shrug*


I suspect you hit the nail on the head (heh heh heh pun totally intended). It was the intent of the developers to foster more communication between crafters. However, assuming I am a level 20 BS I will be keeping my iron nails to build saws which I will then sell at a premium as people who have not gotten their BS to my skill level cannot compete with me.

Of course I am an opportunist so I tend to think that way :-D

Assuming there is a searchable method of selling items eventually I could totally see this working as you stated though. You skill on the nail producing far more than you could ever use, I pick up a stack and assemble tools to sell thereby building my own level up to a point where eventually *I* am skilling on nails and selling them to the next guy coming up. Circle of Life

-Teeg
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#12 Oct 14 2010 at 12:23 PM Rating: Good
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its done to encourage trading, like most of the crafting system. personally I prefer the method of skilling on the ingots, to allow you to make the components out of those ingots, which give you enough skill to make final goods.
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#13 Oct 14 2010 at 12:39 PM Rating: Default
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Forced communication does not build a community.
We dont need encouragement to build a community. We built one in FFXI and we can build another without restrictions, limitations, convoluted logic and tedious systems.

#14 Oct 14 2010 at 1:16 PM Rating: Decent
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Actually the upside down pyramid of crafting does make some sense. I didn't like it at first either. But someone else had mentioned from a materials point of view, it would be less likely to fail and lose all the materials if the final product was a lower level synth than if the final product required a higher level than the ingredients.

Secondly, they didn't make the components the same level as the final product because then any casual crafter could make what they needed. They wanted to reward the people who had crafting as their main and who were also the only people high level enough to make the components. I believe all non-crafting classes were meant to purchase the final products and be high enough level in crafting only to repair the item. Hence, the upside down pyramid.

For example, my main is Conjurer. I don't have enough time to level weaving, carpentry, and leatherworking to make all my gear, but I can still do crafting leves casually and level those crafts high enough to repair the equip I bought.
#15 Oct 14 2010 at 1:17 PM Rating: Default
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TheMightyX wrote:
Forced communication does not build a community... We don't need encouragement to build a community.
Different cultures, different perspectives, different approaches. Personally I agree with you. Developers need to stick to designing the game and leave the behavioral mechanics to the players.
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#16 Oct 14 2010 at 1:24 PM Rating: Good
TheMightyX wrote:
While we are on the subject of retardation, i would like to pose a question to anyone who cares to listen.

In these games, the higher lvl the metal the higher level you must be to craft it.

So:
In the real world, is it not the same process to make a sword/hammer/fork/insertrandomobject out of iron as it is brass? copper? steel? etc, etc, etc.

Why do you have to be 20 lvls higher to make a sword out of iron than one of copper?

Major flaw in logic it seems.




Harder, denser materials require more skill and higher temperatures to craft. Tin<Copper<Bronze<Brass<Iron.
Note the "Bronze Age" and the "Iron Age" for reference.

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#17 Oct 14 2010 at 3:22 PM Rating: Good
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You do know that you don't need to be at that level to synth that recipe? As long as you're within the level requirement range, you have a chance of success. I've been making r25 recipe at r18, sure I botched a lot, but instead of saying stuff doesn't make sense, I make sense out of stuff I made... You CAN make that hammer head at r7 for sure, and it's very easy as well.

Edited, Oct 14th 2010 5:23pm by Khornette
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#18 Oct 14 2010 at 5:21 PM Rating: Decent
Always with the people at the bottom looking up saying, "WTF!?!"

Try looking at it from the perspective of someone in the mid-later levels. You know, the place you'll be at if you spend any length of time playing the game, and the place you'll remain at once you've gotten there?

There are benefits to the tiered system the way it's laid out. If you can't see them, tough. They're there and I wish people would stop making threads crying about it.
#19 Oct 14 2010 at 7:51 PM Rating: Good
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The One and Only Aurelius wrote:
Always with the people at the bottom looking up saying, "WTF!?!"

Try looking at it from the perspective of someone in the mid-later levels. You know, the place you'll be at if you spend any length of time playing the game, and the place you'll remain at once you've gotten there?

There are benefits to the tiered system the way it's laid out. If you can't see them, tough. They're there and I wish people would stop making threads crying about it.


Deja Vu all over again

Agreed with Kreisash & Aurelius...and whoever else that sees how it works...


Edited, Oct 14th 2010 9:53pm by TwistedOwl
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#20 Oct 14 2010 at 8:15 PM Rating: Excellent
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NiklausRyszard wrote:
TheMightyX wrote:
While we are on the subject of retardation, i would like to pose a question to anyone who cares to listen.

In these games, the higher lvl the metal the higher level you must be to craft it.

So:
In the real world, is it not the same process to make a sword/hammer/fork/insertrandomobject out of iron as it is brass? copper? steel? etc, etc, etc.

Why do you have to be 20 lvls higher to make a sword out of iron than one of copper?

Major flaw in logic it seems.




Harder, denser materials require more skill and higher temperatures to craft. Tin<Copper<Bronze<Brass<Iron.
Note the "Bronze Age" and the "Iron Age" for reference.



While I agree with the general idea behind your answer (different materials requiring greater skill to work with), hardness and density are not necessarily related. Also, copper is more dense than bronze, and bronze is similar density to iron (more or less dense depending on the copper:tin ratio). Additionally, bronze is less brittle than iron, and more suitable for making tools. The Bronze Age gave way to the Iron Age for two reasons: The "iron" in the iron age is actually low grade steel (iron with small amounts of carbon, and possibly other impurities, but the carbon is the important part), which is lighter than bronze with similar hardness, and low grade steel requires only a source of iron ore and carbonaceous fuel (coal, charcoal, bone ash to name a few options), while bronze requires copper and tin, which are generally not found in the same geographic regions.

Also, brass is more malleable than copper, bronze, and tin, and is generally not suitable for weapons, since it is fairly soft (it tends to be used ornamentally, or in for use around explosive gas, where the softness helps prevent it from launching sparks when struck).
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