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EXP exploit -Fixed by se in patch-Follow

#52 Oct 15 2010 at 1:08 AM Rating: Decent
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Taken to the extreme of 4+ AFK people and single leveler reaping a 300% SP bonus, this is every bit the exploit of the CON/THA thing. Clearly this mechanic is not intended for a solo player to enjoy a 300% SP bonus. The only problem is how are they going to differentiate between some joker soloing EP's for 200-300 SP and a great party tearing up IT's for the same or higher values. Honestly, the SP/HR is probably lower for the soloer, even with the tremendous buff. They will have to keep some scarily detailed logs to carry out bannings and roll backs over this.
#53 Oct 15 2010 at 1:18 AM Rating: Good
Azurymber wrote:
the game still has no real economic model. hopefully after todays maintenance it will. and why do hate talking about RMT so much? XI got completely screwed by RMT. Like not just a little bit, the -entire- game got messed up because of it. I remember buying my woodsville axe for like 30mil+, and selling things i could get 3 or 4 of in an hour for over a mil each. I'd rather not see a heavy rmt presence in the game and have them ruin XIV too. The powerlevelling rmt thing has happened in lots of games and has been profitable for rmts, and heres a way for them to powerlevel without actually doing anything at all. Thats an issue whether you like it or not. And FFXI had RMT's who farmed sky. There was an entire RMT linkshell who consistantly farmed sky nearly 24/7 on kujata. And they didn't get banned for MONTHS. So SE's record on banning RMT is horrible. Its seriously unlikely that in the packed full laggy camps anyone will notice which ppl sit around all the time.


I don't dislike talking about RMT. I dislike people getting all worked up and sounding alarms over it, linking anything and everything to what it might mean to RMT and thinking it matters. It doesn't. I already told you...it's a different game. The ways in which RMT were able to dominate and destroy XI are not present in XIV right now and I don't expect that they will be. There were three major ways that RMT ruined XI:

1) AH manipulation. Buying all of a particular good and reselling at an inflated price.
2) Dominating NM spawns with bots.
3) RMT dominating resource nodes.

With no AH, you can't manipulate an AH. With the retainer wards set up so that you have to physically visit every retainer in order to buy things, controlling it would be extremely difficult. It would require dozens of retainer farm bots in every city on every server and would be very easy for SE to track and address.

There are no world spawn NMs in XIV and SE has already said that those kinds of things will happen through leves, meaning everyone will be able to access the content provided they've got the appropriate class rank and whatever else is required (ie. faction credits). There won't be another Ullikummi fiasco because there won't be world spawn mobs that only one group can claim/kill/earn drops from at a time.

Crafting materials fall from the sky in XIV. You can't knock over a coblyn without having it puke a handful of ore all over itself before it dies. If there are rare materials at advanced ranks or added later on, they will likely be from levequest spawned mobs or resources everyone has access to. It's entirely common to run by a tree or a rock and see a half dozen players standing around it smashing away with their various different tools.

You need to think big picture about this. You need to examine the mechanics and develop a grasp of how RMT were able to manipulate tham in XI and then compare those mechanics to XIV and see that it's not likely to be an issue. About the only thing RMT might be able to even try to monopolize is the shard market which will hurt crafters more than anyone else. And even if they do, it's not like shards are a rare drop from a mob that only spawns once/game day (if that) in a particular spot in a particular zone. In short, if RMT wind up ruining your good time it's because your attitude and ignorance allows them to.

Edited, Oct 15th 2010 12:24am by Aurelius
#54 Oct 15 2010 at 1:20 AM Rating: Default
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Johnsmith129 wrote:
Azurymber wrote:
zoltanrs wrote:
Azurymber wrote:
The party system in this game is horribly designed. For each party member you have you're sp per hit is boosted. However, you're members don't have to be fighting the mobs or anywhere near the mobs, just in the same zone (possible same crystal zone but possibly not).

What does this mean?

It means you can party up with 5 afk people and keep soling, getting 300+ sp per easy-prey kill without almost ever resting. (at least theoretically, I won't test it incase it's considered an exploit). But i do skill mobs when im in a party and they are all dead and waiting to heal, and I can pull in party exp.

So what does this mean?

Simple: A smart RMT company will buy a bunch of accounts and sell exp-boost powerleveling services. You pay them $5 or $10 an hour and they afk and let you get a 200% sp boost (this is especially helpful after level 20 when you get 50 sp off a mob that take half your hp off).
Within a day, the RMT's will make-up their monthly cost. They can have one person handle 100 characters, and they will be almost undetectable.

Can anyone else see this happening? Or conversely can anyone explain why this -wont- happen? I mean powerlevling services exist. but why pay for one in this game? Its faster to just fight mobs you kill in 5 hits that do no damage to you and get 300sp+ per kill.


soo... You're throwing a fit over something you aren't even sure works and then obsessing over it with dreams of RMT. You may need to get some sunshine.


im 100% sure it works....
and im 100% sure its profitable in some way
Just not 100% of the extent of it because im not about to test an exploit. I know lots of people do it though



Obviously OP has never been in a successful party except maybe one that got him to this ridiculous conclusion, i just dinged 26 today so let me shed some insight on this post that should have never caught flame...

Oh and im going to type in all capps cuz i guess thats what makes the OP correct in his defending posts.

I HAVE NEVER RECEIVED ANY SP BONUS FOR BEING IN A PARTY, WHETHER IT BE DUO, OR 6 MAN PARTY. MY SP IS THE SAME BASED ON HOW MANY ACTIONS I USE DURING THE FIGHT. TODAY HALF THE PARTY WENT AFK SO ME AND A FRIEND DUO'D A FEW MOBS, I GOT QUITE A BIT LESS SP THEN I WOULD HAVE SOLO. KEEP IN MIND OP I HAD 5 PEOPLE IN MY PARTY, 3 AFK, AND GOT LESS SP.

Jesus i have done this several times fighting a mob that gives 50 sp and having a party of 6 with 5 afk will STILL yield 50 sp.

There is no magic bonus that you gain for being in a large party this is the most unintelligent least tested thread i have over replied to.



theres something wrong with your game then. I'm rank 29, almost 30. And everyone i have partied with has noticed a huge bonus in sp gain. I have a feeling it is you who have never been in a proper party. I have been rank 20 in open beta, and i am now rank 29. I also wrote one of the only real solo guides after experimenting on -every- type of mob. So i'm quite familiar with the average sp from a mob. And I am over 100% certain that i am correct since i can fight a mob solo for 10 hours and never get over 150 sp in a fight, then join a party and get 150 sp in 1 hit, and over 300 in many fights. You are possibly using a weapon with 0 durability, or using one well below your current level.
#55 Oct 15 2010 at 1:26 AM Rating: Decent
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The One and Only Aurelius wrote:
Azurymber wrote:
the game still has no real economic model. hopefully after todays maintenance it will. and why do hate talking about RMT so much? XI got completely screwed by RMT. Like not just a little bit, the -entire- game got messed up because of it. I remember buying my woodsville axe for like 30mil+, and selling things i could get 3 or 4 of in an hour for over a mil each. I'd rather not see a heavy rmt presence in the game and have them ruin XIV too. The powerlevelling rmt thing has happened in lots of games and has been profitable for rmts, and heres a way for them to powerlevel without actually doing anything at all. Thats an issue whether you like it or not. And FFXI had RMT's who farmed sky. There was an entire RMT linkshell who consistantly farmed sky nearly 24/7 on kujata. And they didn't get banned for MONTHS. So SE's record on banning RMT is horrible. Its seriously unlikely that in the packed full laggy camps anyone will notice which ppl sit around all the time.


I don't dislike talking about RMT. I dislike people getting all worked up and sounding alarms over it, linking anything and everything to what it might mean to RMT and thinking it matters. It doesn't. I already told you...it's a different game. The ways in which RMT were able to dominate and destroy XI are not present in XIV right now and I don't expect that they will be. There were three major ways that RMT ruined XI:

1) AH manipulation. Buying all of a particular good and reselling at an inflated price.
2) Dominating NM spawns with bots.
3) RMT dominating resource nodes.

With no AH, you can't manipulate an AH. With the retainer wards set up so that you have to physically visit every retainer in order to buy things, controlling it would be extremely difficult. It would require dozens of retainer farm bots in every city on every server and would be very easy for SE to track and address.

There are no world spawn NMs in XIV and SE has already said that those kinds of things will happen through leves, meaning everyone will be able to access the content provided they've got the appropriate class rank and whatever else is required (ie. faction credits). There won't be another Ullikummi fiasco because there won't be world spawn mobs that only one group can claim/kill/earn drops from at a time.

Crafting materials fall form the sky in XIV. You can't knock over a coblyn without having it puke a handful of ore all over itself before it dies. If there are rare materials at advanced ranks or added later on, they will likely be from levequest spawned mobs or resources everyone has access to. It's entirely common to run by a tree or a rock and see a half dozen players standing around it smashing away with their various different tools.

You need to think big picture about this. You need to examine the mechanics and develop a grasp of how RMT were able to manipulate tham in XI and then compare those mechanics to XIV and see that it's not likely to be an issue. About the only thing RMT might be able to even try to monopolize is the shard market which will hurt crafters more than anyone else. And even if they do, it's not like shards are a rare drop from a mob that only spawns once/dame day (if that) in a particular spot in a particular zone. In short, if RMT wind up ruining your good time it's because your attitude and ignorance allows them to.


understandable, but the biggest danger is RMT hording gil and then releasing it all at once in a sale. What im thinking is this:
If RMT find profitable ventures in FFXIV they will undertake them.
that leads to increased rmt presence + advertising
more people quitting the game sell gil to rmt as a result (and i doubt there will be a shortage of ppl quitting the game)
As a result RMT companies horde gil on characters they use to "powerlevel"
Christmas sale occurs.
and we still have the same serious problem FFXI had, which is hyperinflaton. If you had 1million gil yesterday its now worth the equivalent to 10,000 gil yesterday.
Or in other worlds, so much gil is sold all within a week or two that all prices skyrocket and only those who purchased gil can afford anything for a while.

But i'll agree with you, it will be a lot harder for RMT to exploit the game like in ffxi. I am still betting if SE doesn't fix this in a month you will see exactly what i layed out here though. Don't know if it will have any serious consequences but it -could-
#56 Oct 15 2010 at 1:36 AM Rating: Excellent
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Azurymber wrote:
The One and Only Aurelius wrote:
Azurymber wrote:
the game still has no real economic model. hopefully after todays maintenance it will. and why do hate talking about RMT so much? XI got completely screwed by RMT. Like not just a little bit, the -entire- game got messed up because of it. I remember buying my woodsville axe for like 30mil+, and selling things i could get 3 or 4 of in an hour for over a mil each. I'd rather not see a heavy rmt presence in the game and have them ruin XIV too. The powerlevelling rmt thing has happened in lots of games and has been profitable for rmts, and heres a way for them to powerlevel without actually doing anything at all. Thats an issue whether you like it or not. And FFXI had RMT's who farmed sky. There was an entire RMT linkshell who consistantly farmed sky nearly 24/7 on kujata. And they didn't get banned for MONTHS. So SE's record on banning RMT is horrible. Its seriously unlikely that in the packed full laggy camps anyone will notice which ppl sit around all the time.


I don't dislike talking about RMT. I dislike people getting all worked up and sounding alarms over it, linking anything and everything to what it might mean to RMT and thinking it matters. It doesn't. I already told you...it's a different game. The ways in which RMT were able to dominate and destroy XI are not present in XIV right now and I don't expect that they will be. There were three major ways that RMT ruined XI:

1) AH manipulation. Buying all of a particular good and reselling at an inflated price.
2) Dominating NM spawns with bots.
3) RMT dominating resource nodes.

With no AH, you can't manipulate an AH. With the retainer wards set up so that you have to physically visit every retainer in order to buy things, controlling it would be extremely difficult. It would require dozens of retainer farm bots in every city on every server and would be very easy for SE to track and address.

There are no world spawn NMs in XIV and SE has already said that those kinds of things will happen through leves, meaning everyone will be able to access the content provided they've got the appropriate class rank and whatever else is required (ie. faction credits). There won't be another Ullikummi fiasco because there won't be world spawn mobs that only one group can claim/kill/earn drops from at a time.

Crafting materials fall form the sky in XIV. You can't knock over a coblyn without having it puke a handful of ore all over itself before it dies. If there are rare materials at advanced ranks or added later on, they will likely be from levequest spawned mobs or resources everyone has access to. It's entirely common to run by a tree or a rock and see a half dozen players standing around it smashing away with their various different tools.

You need to think big picture about this. You need to examine the mechanics and develop a grasp of how RMT were able to manipulate tham in XI and then compare those mechanics to XIV and see that it's not likely to be an issue. About the only thing RMT might be able to even try to monopolize is the shard market which will hurt crafters more than anyone else. And even if they do, it's not like shards are a rare drop from a mob that only spawns once/dame day (if that) in a particular spot in a particular zone. In short, if RMT wind up ruining your good time it's because your attitude and ignorance allows them to.


understandable, but the biggest danger is RMT hording gil and then releasing it all at once in a sale. What im thinking is this:
If RMT find profitable ventures in FFXIV they will undertake them.
that leads to increased rmt presence + advertising
more people quitting the game sell gil to rmt as a result (and i doubt there will be a shortage of ppl quitting the game)
As a result RMT companies horde gil on characters they use to "powerlevel"
Christmas sale occurs.
and we still have the same serious problem FFXI had, which is hyperinflaton. If you had 1million gil yesterday its now worth the equivalent to 10,000 gil yesterday.
Or in other worlds, so much gil is sold all within a week or two that all prices skyrocket and only those who purchased gil can afford anything for a while.

But i'll agree with you, it will be a lot harder for RMT to exploit the game like in ffxi. I am still betting if SE doesn't fix this in a month you will see exactly what i layed out here though. Don't know if it will have any serious consequences but it -could-


Easy way to prevent that is for regular players not to get greedy also. I've got more money than I know what to do with right now so I make all kinds of deals for people. Give some things away. Even if I decide to make some kinda expensive purchases I earn the money back pretty quickly.

Think I'm with Aurelius on this one also. Without an AH, how are people gonna know there was a sudden gil rush? Most will probably keep selling items at decent prices. Business as usual. Prices don't skyrocket...people find out they wasted real money on gil that they could've easily gotten in game. Sounds like you're basing that fear off of experience from other mmos like XI. Shouldn't happen the way things are set up now.

Edited, Oct 15th 2010 3:37am by TwistedOwl
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#57 Oct 15 2010 at 1:47 AM Rating: Decent
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actually im an economist irl and run a company. I deal with foreign economies a lot so I have a lot of intuition when it comes to how economies function.

Even without an AH, desired items will sell -fast- if there is a large influx of gil and they are priced low. This will cause people to shout for items they want offering more than they are worth (because the majority of people will pay more to get an item now than wait for it at a lower price, especially if they have a lot of money). As a result, prices will quickly rise.

AH or not, supply and demand exists. For example on my server (wutai), bronze haubergeons (or the 27 hauby) was 120k on average a week ago, it has now dropped to 80k. There is convergance to prices, its just slower than an AH. However, if it didn't occur all prices would be random.

Now there is a possibility that it will end up that -no- items in the game are difficult to make. But then there will be no end-game incentive to people, and no incentive to craft. If SE wants people to craft there needs to be some use for gil. Up to level 40, you can make enough gil to repair equipment via NPCing your items each return to town. So either there will be rare items, or people will stop crafting within a year.
Think about it, items don't dissapear unless someone quits (and they usually give their items away). So each time you craft an item it adds to the supply of that item on the server. If items are ridiculously easy to craft (and so far they all are) after a year there will be enough items that there will be no incentive to waste time crafting more. It will be more efficient or cheaper to just buy one of the 100s that are available and unused.

So essentially there has to be rare items at some point for the games system to work in the long term.
And hyperinflation will effect those items
regardless of there being an auction house or not.
Supply + Demand applies EVERYWHERE with some sort of knowledge of prices, even if its limited.
#58 Oct 15 2010 at 1:58 AM Rating: Good
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I agree that it could effect it more if there are end-game rare items everyone wants eventually. Based on how things are now though, I don't see it happening so easily. There will still be lots of people not keeping up with the pulse of the economy enough to know they can get more for certain items. And there will be dopes like me who know they could get a lot more for somethin', but sell it cheap anyway because it's not that big of a deal. Unlike XI where I was forever clawing my way up the economic ladder, in XIV I'm not worried about ******** over another player just to get every last bit of gil possible out of it. More like "Oh you need this? Well I don't need it, here ya go!"

Of course things can change and money may become more important later. But we'll see how that goes...



Edited, Oct 15th 2010 4:02am by TwistedOwl
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#59 Oct 15 2010 at 2:14 AM Rating: Default
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Azurymber wrote:
wrongfeifong wrote:

Am i the only sane person here? So you get 3 time the amount of experience, that is nice. Does it mean anything? No, because you still have to pay that 2-3 extra character for 16 bucks a month and 3 additional system that can play FFXIV.

I doubt any RMT will sit there and let you triple up your experience for 16 bucks a month + the amortized cost of a FFXIV playable system, the OP is 100% stupid.


I always wonder why so many people have horrible low paying jobs and i fear this demonstrates one of the reasons.

Lets assume that a character was $30 a month
RMT Buys 3 chars for $90 for november
Charges $5 an hour to give an exp bonus (this is approx what people in other free mmo's will pay for a double exp boost)
If they use all 3 chars to give that boost:
18 hours later they have re-made their profit.
Since RMT have people working 24/7. A 1-month investment is remade every 18 hours. So if they get 18 hours (not even 24 hours) a day, they make 30 times their investment per month. As long as they have demand (and free to play mmo's say they do), they are almost guarenteed to make profit. Its also a lot harder to ban people like this.
Now characters are less than $30 a month, and they can probably charge more than $5 an hour
Meaning this is clearly profitable.
obviously these characters can also be used as porting characters, etc.
Or they can use their gil muels for this.

Thank you. I was going to point out the math fail myself but you did it just fine. Apparently, it's not the OP that's 100% stupid.
#60 Oct 15 2010 at 2:17 AM Rating: Decent
Wow, Chicken Little much? First, you've given no proof except your own statement that you get bonus sp for being in a party. You don't. You get more sp sometimes because in a group, you're fighting higher level monsters. The only way to get the 300% or whatever the **** you're talking about bonus, is to take on those higher level mobs, by yourself mind you, while in a party of afkers. And you can't. If this were the case, you could farm Star Marmots until you were rank 15. And you can't.

Again, YOU GET NO EXTRA SP FOR SIMPLY BEING IN A PARTY. You only get more because the mobs are on a higher level. Now either come up with proof that there is a visible sp boost for JUST being in a party, and not fighting higher level mobs, with numbers and actual facts, and maybe people on here will take you seriously. Until then, good day, sir.
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#61 Oct 15 2010 at 2:39 AM Rating: Default
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Johnsmith129 wrote:

And whoever posted earlier about 15 rmt's doin 8 guildleves together for 720k is also retarded or hasn't played the game.

If 15 people team up to do a guildleve and lets say they grab some in limsa lominsa together. Everyone participating in the leve that has that leve in their journal gets it consumed. So if 10 of the 15 members have the leve "Save the lettuce, save the world", when that leve is initiated by any of them all 10 of them lose the leve.

And furthermore each member does not get 7k gil, if you do not have that particular leve but ur in a party and someone uses it, you do not get the reward. You only get a small small percentage usually around 500gil-1k for helping them complete their leve.



Um this isn't exactly accurate either. It is but it isn't kinda thing. If you do them as you say then yes, but you don't have to do them that way, and its honestly in your best interest not to do the leves that way.

Let me explain. I prefer to do these in a team of 3 (takes too long to do in huge parties of 15), but anyway let me show you a fast money grab from level 10 levequests as we do it. ONE of the 3 grabs all the level 10 levequests they can in ONE of the 3 cities, the others do the same in a different one, lets say its 3 of them each OK. We gather at one of the camps and do those 3. That is 7k times 3 for the person who had the leves and another 1k times 3 for each of the other 2 people at this camp. We then port to the next cities camp and do those 3, and again to the last city. Once we have finished a single round, we swap our cities and go collect 3 from one we haven't hit yet, and repeat the process until each of us has done our 8 leves. There is never an overlap of 'same levequest' at the time we do them.

So what does this do for our money and skill? Well we get the added benefit of actually getting to do a full 24 levequests every 36 hours (this is with a team of 3 only - its more if more people). And we get more money overall. If we generalize to 7k reward on every level 10 leve, and 1k to those who help but don't have, this is how it comes out.

Per person on 3 man team
7,000 X 8 = 56,000
1,000 X 16 = 16,000

Total for group of 3
216,000

So if you figure this method in with a full 15 RMT like the other person was saying, it does in fact come out to at least 720,000, actually its more. But that's a big IF they do all 15 peoples levequests together in this manner, that would be a whopping 120 levequests in 36 hours, and that would be a trick. IF they took the time to do all 8 levequests in this manner for all 15 people their total would be 2,520,000 every 36 hours. The benefit of the larger team also means you conserve anima for teleports as you can spread the cost around more. Even then, that's 5 trips to each camp and city to finish the cycle for them all. It could be done, but I wouldn't want to try it all in one shot. And keep in mind this is with level 10 monetary rewards figured in, it would be much higher with level 20 or 30 figures.

Per person on 15 man team
7,000 X 8 = 56,000
1,000 X 112 = 112,000

Total for a group of 15
2,520,000

Most of the time what we do is in run teams of 6-10 though, normally only do 3-4 levequests per person on one day, and do their second half the next day. That way we always have levequests to do together every night. And there is less chance of identical ones coming up to overlap as they change daily.

Edited, Oct 15th 2010 4:43am by Kedd
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#62 Oct 15 2010 at 2:49 AM Rating: Decent
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CamouflageNoise wrote:
Wow, Chicken Little much? First, you've given no proof except your own statement that you get bonus sp for being in a party. You don't. You get more sp sometimes because in a group, you're fighting higher level monsters. The only way to get the 300% or whatever the **** you're talking about bonus, is to take on those higher level mobs, by yourself mind you, while in a party of afkers. And you can't. If this were the case, you could farm Star Marmots until you were rank 15. And you can't.

Again, YOU GET NO EXTRA SP FOR SIMPLY BEING IN A PARTY. You only get more because the mobs are on a higher level. Now either come up with proof that there is a visible sp boost for JUST being in a party, and not fighting higher level mobs, with numbers and actual facts, and maybe people on here will take you seriously. Until then, good day, sir.


I'm sorry but you do get bonus exp for being in a group.
here, http://www.ffxivcore.com/topic/25675-faster-skill-up-past-rank-25/
A bunch of people who actually bother to test things and probably have characters higher than rank 10.

Kind of amazing that a bunch of people on core already knew about this but on here everyone flamed me and claimed i was wrong.

People have been using this to get 30+.... this isn't huge news.
but anyway, im sure beastmaster pets still kill exp, and drgs all suck. Last time i even mention new news on these forums lol
#63 Oct 15 2010 at 2:59 AM Rating: Good
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Also More proof from todays update:

"- The party bonus system (which awards bonus skill points for battles fought in a party) has been changed so that the bonus is awarded based on the number of fellow party members in the same area who are within the appropriate skill rank range, not simply the total number of party members.

* The party bonus system awards more points when there are more party members within the appropriate skill rank range.
* In this case, "appropriate skill rank range" means a skill rank no more than five ranks lower or higher than your own"

http://lodestone.finalfantasyxiv.com/pl/news/detail?newsId=dbb5a630f338f84b0b3583928bd4c19715154f30
#64 Oct 15 2010 at 3:27 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
--EDIT 2: PROOF FROM SE + THE FIX--
Also More proof from todays update:

"- The party bonus system (which awards bonus skill points for battles fought in a party) has been changed so that the bonus is awarded based on the number of fellow party members in the same area who are within the appropriate skill rank range, not simply the total number of party members.

* The party bonus system awards more points when there are more party members within the appropriate skill rank range.
* In this case, "appropriate skill rank range" means a skill rank no more than five ranks lower or higher than your own"

http://lodestone.finalfantasyxiv.com/pl/news/detail?newsId=dbb5a630f338f84b0b3583928bd4c19715154f30

So clearly SE fixed this issue. YAY for SE. Everyone who said this didn't work or wasn't an issue... stop being a noob? lol.
Obviously RMT are no longer a problem since they would have to be in range and that makes things a lot more difficult.
--

--
EDIT: I'm bored of people telling me/posting this doesn't work and defaulting me.
it does and here is proof. http://www.ffxivcore.com/topic/25675-faster-skill-up-past-rank-25/
I asked a few simple questions on here based on a fact, and it turned into a flame war.
To everyone who denounces something that takes 5 minutes to test and that has been determined to work by a bunch of people, please grow up.
I feel horrible that I actually have to link to ffxivcore in order to prove something because no one on here can invite one person and test it themselves.


Well ****, that was quick.
#65EzellLangor, Posted: Oct 15 2010 at 6:04 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) See , I told you...SE knew about this **** and has fixed it right away. Now we are forced to Party within a 5 rank limit. Are you happy OP?
#66 Oct 15 2010 at 7:00 AM Rating: Good
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EzellLangor wrote:
See , I told you...SE knew about this sh*t and has fixed it right away. Now we are forced to Party within a 5 rank limit. Are you happy OP?



yeah i am, i'm sorry you can no longer exploit the game >_>
ok i'm not really sorry. its people like you who ruin this game.
#67EzellLangor, Posted: Oct 15 2010 at 7:56 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) It's people like you who **** over the rest of the population. You are not the moral police of FFXIV, if you don't like it.....novel concept don't do it....
#68 Oct 15 2010 at 9:26 AM Rating: Decent
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It doesn't sound like they really fixed it, just made is so a R25 can't party with 4 R1's. It still sounds like he could get 4 R20's-25's to AFK in a zone and gain the SP Bonus. Fixing it would be to require all the other member engage the mob before the bonus kicked in. Even making the radius really small wouldn't work cause you could just be put on auto-follow.


Edited, Oct 15th 2010 11:27am by Furia
#69 Oct 15 2010 at 10:05 AM Rating: Decent
Azurymber wrote:
actually im an economist irl and run a company. I deal with foreign economies a lot so I have a lot of intuition when it comes to how economies function.


You can take all of your theories and speculation and jot them down and dress them up in lingerie for all I care, because theories mean jack next to practical comparisons. This is what you're not grasping. FFXI is the only MMO I've played that was so heavily influenced by RMT. I'm sure there have been others, but none that I've played which has been several. The only other MMO I have played where it came anywhere near close to being significantly disrupted by RMT was LOTRO and the disruption came form low level mine bots in high level zones running pre-programmed routes to claimable resource nodes (meaning one person using it prevented others from doing so and when they were done it disappeared. Again, not an issue for XIV because the nodes work very differently).

You're still stuck in an XI mindset. You're looking at everything through your trauma-tinted FFXI goggles and trying to wrap some sense around it with the deep seated fear in the pit of your bowels that XIV will turn into the same thing. You need look only to the scope of RMT Influence in other MMOs to see what is possible when it comes to preventing RMT from dominating an economy. It makes absolutely no difference if RMT stockpile gil if other players have ready access to the materials they need in order to have the things made that they want. No difference at all. Did you know that based on the current itemization and crafting recipes available in the game that you can upgrade your armor right through level 40 from drops gathered or farmed from mobs in the non-aggro zones around the three starter cities? You can mine Limonite (used to make iron nuggets) from grade 2 (1?) mining nodes ffs. Velveteen cloth along with canvas and cotton is made from cotton yarn, derived from cotton bolls that are not only harvested from rank 1/2 nodes, but drop in substantial quantity from all manner of beasties. Buffalo Hide from rank 15-17 wolves in Gridania. Rank 4 and 5 gathering nodes in no or low aggro areas that can be gathered from at any rank of miner or botanist.

That's the central component of the entire issue: RMT dominated FFXI because the supply of gear and materials players "needed" was perpetually low. Painfully low. So low, in fact, that people stopped looking to farming as their primary supply of materials and started to see the AH as the only reasonable place to go to get it. That made the most valuable commodity in FFXI gil, not raw materials. And since there was no real way to earn straight gil in any significant quantity, that left farming, which people grew to hate doing. And then when you introduce a means of acquiring gil in rapid fashion, even if that means doing so required players to step outside the rules, then that's what people did.

And the most valuable commodity in XIV is shaping up to be shards...shards that are earned from gathering. Shards that are earned from killing mobs. I did my regional leves yesterday (4 mining, 4 botany) and finished with 69 wind shards I didn't have before. I've had fire and earth shards hit 999 in my inventory and overflow. I go into market wards and shop around and buy those shards I need that are reasonably priced and leave the rest on the retainers where I found them.

If you can't think big picture on the subject, you've got nothing to offer the discussion. It ain't XI, brah.
#70 Oct 15 2010 at 11:25 AM Rating: Decent
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The One and Only Aurelius wrote:
Azurymber wrote:
actually im an economist irl and run a company. I deal with foreign economies a lot so I have a lot of intuition when it comes to how economies function.


You can take all of your theories and speculation and jot them down and dress them up in lingerie for all I care, because theories mean jack next to practical comparisons. This is what you're not grasping. FFXI is the only MMO I've played that was so heavily influenced by RMT. I'm sure there have been others, but none that I've played which has been several. The only other MMO I have played where it came anywhere near close to being significantly disrupted by RMT was LOTRO and the disruption came form low level mine bots in high level zones running pre-programmed routes to claimable resource nodes (meaning one person using it prevented others from doing so and when they were done it disappeared. Again, not an issue for XIV because the nodes work very differently).

You're still stuck in an XI mindset. You're looking at everything through your trauma-tinted FFXI goggles and trying to wrap some sense around it with the deep seated fear in the pit of your bowels that XIV will turn into the same thing. You need look only to the scope of RMT Influence in other MMOs to see what is possible when it comes to preventing RMT from dominating an economy. It makes absolutely no difference if RMT stockpile gil if other players have ready access to the materials they need in order to have the things made that they want. No difference at all. Did you know that based on the current itemization and crafting recipes available in the game that you can upgrade your armor right through level 40 from drops gathered or farmed from mobs in the non-aggro zones around the three starter cities? You can mine Limonite (used to make iron nuggets) from grade 2 (1?) mining nodes ffs. Velveteen cloth along with canvas and cotton is made from cotton yarn, derived from cotton bolls that are not only harvested from rank 1/2 nodes, but drop in substantial quantity from all manner of beasties. Buffalo Hide from rank 15-17 wolves in Gridania. Rank 4 and 5 gathering nodes in no or low aggro areas that can be gathered from at any rank of miner or botanist.

That's the central component of the entire issue: RMT dominated FFXI because the supply of gear and materials players "needed" was perpetually low. Painfully low. So low, in fact, that people stopped looking to farming as their primary supply of materials and started to see the AH as the only reasonable place to go to get it. That made the most valuable commodity in FFXI gil, not raw materials. And since there was no real way to earn straight gil in any significant quantity, that left farming, which people grew to hate doing. And then when you introduce a means of acquiring gil in rapid fashion, even if that means doing so required players to step outside the rules, then that's what people did.

And the most valuable commodity in XIV is shaping up to be shards...shards that are earned from gathering. Shards that are earned from killing mobs. I did my regional leves yesterday (4 mining, 4 botany) and finished with 69 wind shards I didn't have before. I've had fire and earth shards hit 999 in my inventory and overflow. I go into market wards and shop around and buy those shards I need that are reasonably priced and leave the rest on the retainers where I found them.

If you can't think big picture on the subject, you've got nothing to offer the discussion. It ain't XI, brah.


they just announced earlier that they are releasing NMs in the open world.
More like XI than you thought.
And hyperinflation applies everywhere, if people double the amount of money in circulation overnight, prices will skyrocket fast. Thats how supply and demand works. Don't try to pretend it won't happen just because the game is designed differently. There is money, there are limited goods, and there are prices. People are greedy (on average, not everyone). That greed means prices will balance at equilibrium or be in a constant-ish shift towards it due to imperfect information. Therefore if RMT drop a huge amount of gil into the game like in XI, prices will skyrocket and anyone holding onto gil will now have much less that they previously had overnight. It happened in XI, it can easily happen here.
#71 Oct 15 2010 at 12:09 PM Rating: Decent
Azurymber wrote:
Also More proof from todays update:

"- The party bonus system (which awards bonus skill points for battles fought in a party) has been changed so that the bonus is awarded based on the number of fellow party members in the same area who are within the appropriate skill rank range, not simply the total number of party members.

* The party bonus system awards more points when there are more party members within the appropriate skill rank range.
* In this case, "appropriate skill rank range" means a skill rank no more than five ranks lower or higher than your own"

http://lodestone.finalfantasyxiv.com/pl/news/detail?newsId=dbb5a630f338f84b0b3583928bd4c19715154f30


Well, there you go, a link in two posts. Was that hard? I was wrong, but I'll admit I was wrong about the bonus party sp. It's up to the OP to generate the proof for his conclusions, and you did nothing but state personal observations, and flaming the other members' own personal observations that were to the contrary.

Next time don't start touting how high a level you are like it makes you an expert. You're only 9 ranks ahead of me. Cheers and better luck in your next thread as not to get flamed so much for your abrasive manner of explaining a doomsday time clock.
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#72 Oct 15 2010 at 12:17 PM Rating: Good
Azurymber wrote:
actually im an economist irl and run a company. I deal with foreign economies a lot so I have a lot of intuition when it comes to how economies function.

Even without an AH, desired items will sell -fast- if there is a large influx of gil and they are priced low. This will cause people to shout for items they want offering more than they are worth (because the majority of people will pay more to get an item now than wait for it at a lower price, especially if they have a lot of money). As a result, prices will quickly rise.

AH or not, supply and demand exists. For example on my server (wutai), bronze haubergeons (or the 27 hauby) was 120k on average a week ago, it has now dropped to 80k. There is convergance to prices, its just slower than an AH. However, if it didn't occur all prices would be random.

Now there is a possibility that it will end up that -no- items in the game are difficult to make. But then there will be no end-game incentive to people, and no incentive to craft. If SE wants people to craft there needs to be some use for gil. Up to level 40, you can make enough gil to repair equipment via NPCing your items each return to town. So either there will be rare items, or people will stop crafting within a year.
Think about it, items don't dissapear unless someone quits (and they usually give their items away). So each time you craft an item it adds to the supply of that item on the server. If items are ridiculously easy to craft (and so far they all are) after a year there will be enough items that there will be no incentive to waste time crafting more. It will be more efficient or cheaper to just buy one of the 100s that are available and unused.

So essentially there has to be rare items at some point for the games system to work in the long term.
And hyperinflation will effect those items
regardless of there being an auction house or not.
Supply + Demand applies EVERYWHERE with some sort of knowledge of prices, even if its limited.


I've actually vendored some items I could have resold because I didn't want to go through the hassle of finding someone to repair it to 100%. Though if they add retainers for $1 per month, I might just end up getting more of those not only to have more selling power, but more storage as well. Can't argue with most of what you've said though, I can only hope it doesn't turn out that way. Either way, I'm sure SE has consulted economists when creating their plan, so I am betting either circumstance, additions by them, or both, will prove what you've outlined to be false in the long term.

I'm actually leaning quite towards it being false. If what you said was true, we would see low level equipment being resold in people's retainers, but I know at least I am not. I have actually started crafting low level gear again for people coming into the game late, because I never see anyone else selling it anymore. I think a lot more gear does not get reused than you realize.
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#73 Oct 15 2010 at 12:39 PM Rating: Decent
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To the people talking about doing leve's for money. No fancy math however, one night I did nothing but leve's with 2/3 other people. we did each other's leves', some over laping, porting to each city, picking up 3 more , etc.... I started with 6k, by the end of the night I had ~215k and there where still more leves to do. His numbers are definately accurate. Gil is not hard to come by with a lil organization. I could only imagine if I had 15 people to do this all day long lol.
#74 Oct 15 2010 at 12:46 PM Rating: Decent
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charityneverfaileth wrote:
Azurymber wrote:
actually im an economist irl and run a company. I deal with foreign economies a lot so I have a lot of intuition when it comes to how economies function.

Even without an AH, desired items will sell -fast- if there is a large influx of gil and they are priced low. This will cause people to shout for items they want offering more than they are worth (because the majority of people will pay more to get an item now than wait for it at a lower price, especially if they have a lot of money). As a result, prices will quickly rise.

AH or not, supply and demand exists. For example on my server (wutai), bronze haubergeons (or the 27 hauby) was 120k on average a week ago, it has now dropped to 80k. There is convergance to prices, its just slower than an AH. However, if it didn't occur all prices would be random.

Now there is a possibility that it will end up that -no- items in the game are difficult to make. But then there will be no end-game incentive to people, and no incentive to craft. If SE wants people to craft there needs to be some use for gil. Up to level 40, you can make enough gil to repair equipment via NPCing your items each return to town. So either there will be rare items, or people will stop crafting within a year.
Think about it, items don't dissapear unless someone quits (and they usually give their items away). So each time you craft an item it adds to the supply of that item on the server. If items are ridiculously easy to craft (and so far they all are) after a year there will be enough items that there will be no incentive to waste time crafting more. It will be more efficient or cheaper to just buy one of the 100s that are available and unused.

So essentially there has to be rare items at some point for the games system to work in the long term.
And hyperinflation will effect those items
regardless of there being an auction house or not.
Supply + Demand applies EVERYWHERE with some sort of knowledge of prices, even if its limited.


I've actually vendored some items I could have resold because I didn't want to go through the hassle of finding someone to repair it to 100%. Though if they add retainers for $1 per month, I might just end up getting more of those not only to have more selling power, but more storage as well. Can't argue with most of what you've said though, I can only hope it doesn't turn out that way. Either way, I'm sure SE has consulted economists when creating their plan, so I am betting either circumstance, additions by them, or both, will prove what you've outlined to be false in the long term.

I'm actually leaning quite towards it being false. If what you said was true, we would see low level equipment being resold in people's retainers, but I know at least I am not. I have actually started crafting low level gear again for people coming into the game late, because I never see anyone else selling it anymore. I think a lot more gear does not get reused than you realize.


SE didn't consult economists. its pretty obvious. if they did the economist is a total hack. We aren't seeing low level equipment being resold because you can only sell fully repaired gear and not that many people have crafts high enough to make finding a repair worth it. Further, people aren't buying low level gear, most are buying lvl 30+ gear that looks cool like bronze haubergeon. When people realize this gimps them (if they do), then people will start to create a market for lower level equip.
#75 Oct 15 2010 at 1:02 PM Rating: Decent
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518 posts
You are paranoid. I'd say your retarded but hey. RMT cannot hold the economy hostage like in XI. Any amount of gil flooding that you say can happen won't. There is no D-box, there is a 999,999 limit in gil we can trade. Most "high" end items require a HIGH level to craft. Mats are not rare, they are just higher levels than the item you are trying to make. We arn't making Vermy's here with only one mob in the entire game who drops the mats for it. So RMT can't strangle the crafting market.
Like stated above the mining and gathering methods in this game are different from XI. On bot can monopolize ??? spawns like you could in Zylom. There is too much open competition for fast resources. The only choke point in this game is craft level. Items can be obtained easily and every 36 hours.

And if you read what they said about NMs, they said they would be in Leves not wandering the world...no kings in this game my friend. It's all about leves.
#76 Oct 15 2010 at 1:04 PM Rating: Good
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518 posts
Azurymber wrote:
charityneverfaileth wrote:
Azurymber wrote:
actually im an economist irl and run a company. I deal with foreign economies a lot so I have a lot of intuition when it comes to how economies function.

Even without an AH, desired items will sell -fast- if there is a large influx of gil and they are priced low. This will cause people to shout for items they want offering more than they are worth (because the majority of people will pay more to get an item now than wait for it at a lower price, especially if they have a lot of money). As a result, prices will quickly rise.

AH or not, supply and demand exists. For example on my server (wutai), bronze haubergeons (or the 27 hauby) was 120k on average a week ago, it has now dropped to 80k. There is convergance to prices, its just slower than an AH. However, if it didn't occur all prices would be random.

Now there is a possibility that it will end up that -no- items in the game are difficult to make. But then there will be no end-game incentive to people, and no incentive to craft. If SE wants people to craft there needs to be some use for gil. Up to level 40, you can make enough gil to repair equipment via NPCing your items each return to town. So either there will be rare items, or people will stop crafting within a year.
Think about it, items don't dissapear unless someone quits (and they usually give their items away). So each time you craft an item it adds to the supply of that item on the server. If items are ridiculously easy to craft (and so far they all are) after a year there will be enough items that there will be no incentive to waste time crafting more. It will be more efficient or cheaper to just buy one of the 100s that are available and unused.

So essentially there has to be rare items at some point for the games system to work in the long term.
And hyperinflation will effect those items
regardless of there being an auction house or not.
Supply + Demand applies EVERYWHERE with some sort of knowledge of prices, even if its limited.


I've actually vendored some items I could have resold because I didn't want to go through the hassle of finding someone to repair it to 100%. Though if they add retainers for $1 per month, I might just end up getting more of those not only to have more selling power, but more storage as well. Can't argue with most of what you've said though, I can only hope it doesn't turn out that way. Either way, I'm sure SE has consulted economists when creating their plan, so I am betting either circumstance, additions by them, or both, will prove what you've outlined to be false in the long term.

I'm actually leaning quite towards it being false. If what you said was true, we would see low level equipment being resold in people's retainers, but I know at least I am not. I have actually started crafting low level gear again for people coming into the game late, because I never see anyone else selling it anymore. I think a lot more gear does not get reused than you realize.


SE didn't consult economists. its pretty obvious. if they did the economist is a total hack. We aren't seeing low level equipment being resold because you can only sell fully repaired gear and not that many people have crafts high enough to make finding a repair worth it. Further, people aren't buying low level gear, most are buying lvl 30+ gear that looks cool like bronze haubergeon. When people realize this gimps them (if they do), then people will start to create a market for lower level equip.



except there is a market for low level gear, i craft in it. And guess what, the prices are still falling in that market just as fast. There is no area to control, you can't. Only place to control prices is @ high level crafts...but guess what, you only get maybe 24-72 hours to control before the market is flooded and prices drop by 100k+ every few days....obviously you don't price watch in this game....
#77 Oct 15 2010 at 1:05 PM Rating: Good
Azurymber wrote:


SE didn't consult economists. its pretty obvious. if they did the economist is a total hack. We aren't seeing low level equipment being resold because you can only sell fully repaired gear and not that many people have crafts high enough to make finding a repair worth it. Further, people aren't buying low level gear, most are buying lvl 30+ gear that looks cool like bronze haubergeon. When people realize this gimps them (if they do), then people will start to create a market for lower level equip.


Yeah maybe they did, maybe they didn't, who knows for sure. I know that if I had money and I was making an MMO, I would consult an economist before setting up my economy, but anyways...

As far as your comment about repairng stuff goes, that was pretty much my point. Except that as people level up their DoW/DoM classes the equipment they'rew recycling is going to be going up in level at the same rate as they're currently levelling their crafts, which for almost everyone who does both seem to level much slower than their main DoW/DoM class. So I think it's much more likely that most people will end up with level 50 DoW/DoM classes and level 30 DoH classes than see people continue to progress at the same rate with DoW/DoM and crafting. In essence I don't think most people are going to be able to repair their own gear past level 10 or 20 consistently. However one thing I didn't think of in my earlier post, and haven't really tried too much in game, is using my linkshell to find people to repair my gear. It's one thing for me to vendor something worth 10k for 2.5k and another thing for me to vendor something worth 100k for 10k, so maybe he's right after all.

All I know is I don't want to see a game come a year or two where crafting is next to obsolete.


Edited, Oct 15th 2010 4:12pm by charityneverfaileth
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#78 Oct 15 2010 at 1:11 PM Rating: Default
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518 posts
charityneverfaileth wrote:
Azurymber wrote:


SE didn't consult economists. its pretty obvious. if they did the economist is a total hack. We aren't seeing low level equipment being resold because you can only sell fully repaired gear and not that many people have crafts high enough to make finding a repair worth it. Further, people aren't buying low level gear, most are buying lvl 30+ gear that looks cool like bronze haubergeon. When people realize this gimps them (if they do), then people will start to create a market for lower level equip.


Yeah maybe they did, maybe they didn't, who knows for sure. I know that if I had money and I was making an MMO, I would consult an economist before setting up my economy, but anyways...

As far as your comment about repairng stuff goes, that was pretty much my point. Except that as people level up their DoW/DoM classes the equipment they'rew recycling is going to be at the same rate as they're currently levelling their crafts. In fact they may end up levelling crafts more slowly considering it seems to take longer to level up crafts than DoW/DoM classes. So I think it's much more likely that most people will end up with level 50 DoW/DoM classes and level 30 DoH classes than see people continue to progress at the same rate with DoW/DoM and crafting. In essence I don't think most people are going to be able to repair their own gear past level 10 or 20 consistently. However one thing I didn't think of in my earlier post, and haven't really tried too much in game, is using my linkshell to find people to repair my gear. It's one thing for me to vendor something worth 10k for 2.5k and another thing for me to vendor something worth 100k for 10k, so maybe he's right after all.

All I know is I don't want to see a game come a year or two where crafting is next to obsolete.



What game are you playing? seriously ppl can't skill up their repairs? If someone can make a piece of armor/weapon/ect they can also repair it. So that guy who made you the haub....he can repair it as well. Or you can go to the guild and ask ppl to repair it, they will, i've done it. The problem now is that most high level gear is using high level mats to repair...the price on those mats will come down, just like canvas..so eventually your gear will be cheap to repair. you just have to find a crafter, or level your own craft. And in case you havn't noticed there are ppl in this game who have only leveled a DoH job or DoL(gathering class) job. There are specializations everywhere. You two are either to stupid to notice or don't have any crafters in your LS above 15.
#79 Oct 15 2010 at 1:13 PM Rating: Good
EzellLangor wrote:
charityneverfaileth wrote:
Azurymber wrote:


SE didn't consult economists. its pretty obvious. if they did the economist is a total hack. We aren't seeing low level equipment being resold because you can only sell fully repaired gear and not that many people have crafts high enough to make finding a repair worth it. Further, people aren't buying low level gear, most are buying lvl 30+ gear that looks cool like bronze haubergeon. When people realize this gimps them (if they do), then people will start to create a market for lower level equip.


Yeah maybe they did, maybe they didn't, who knows for sure. I know that if I had money and I was making an MMO, I would consult an economist before setting up my economy, but anyways...

As far as your comment about repairng stuff goes, that was pretty much my point. Except that as people level up their DoW/DoM classes the equipment they'rew recycling is going to be at the same rate as they're currently levelling their crafts. In fact they may end up levelling crafts more slowly considering it seems to take longer to level up crafts than DoW/DoM classes. So I think it's much more likely that most people will end up with level 50 DoW/DoM classes and level 30 DoH classes than see people continue to progress at the same rate with DoW/DoM and crafting. In essence I don't think most people are going to be able to repair their own gear past level 10 or 20 consistently. However one thing I didn't think of in my earlier post, and haven't really tried too much in game, is using my linkshell to find people to repair my gear. It's one thing for me to vendor something worth 10k for 2.5k and another thing for me to vendor something worth 100k for 10k, so maybe he's right after all.

All I know is I don't want to see a game come a year or two where crafting is next to obsolete.



What game are you playing? seriously ppl can't skill up their repairs? If someone can make a piece of armor/weapon/ect they can also repair it. So that guy who made you the haub....he can repair it as well. Or you can go to the guild and ask ppl to repair it, they will, i've done it. The problem now is that most high level gear is using high level mats to repair...the price on those mats will come down, just like canvas..so eventually your gear will be cheap to repair. you just have to find a crafter, or level your own craft. And in case you havn't noticed there are ppl in this game who have only leveled a DoH job or DoL(gathering class) job. There are specializations everywhere. You two are either to stupid to notice or don't have any crafters in your LS above 15.


That's essentially what I just admitted to. No need to get hostile. :)
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#80 Oct 15 2010 at 1:18 PM Rating: Decent
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518 posts
charityneverfaileth wrote:


That's essentially what I just admitted to. No need to get hostile. :)


:-) than stop feeding the OP.....he's crazy on RMT....
#81 Oct 15 2010 at 2:42 PM Rating: Good
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494 posts
i'm not rmt crazy. I brought up a logical way for RMT to exploit a system in the game. Given that SE changed the system so that you have to be within 5 rank levels rather than the party has to be engaged probably means they saw the same exploit. They may not have considered RMT but they probably considered people making another account to powerlevel themselves or something similar.

Further, there is no real market for low level gear. It sells to some people, but the majority of sales are in "cool" looking gear and mid 20s gear. Thats why on almost every forum there are threads with people complaining about everyone wearing bronze haubergeon. Also stop assuming people don't have high level ranks. im 22 or 23 woodworking, and i'll probably have clothcraft and leathercraft at 15+ by tonight. (14 and 11 now i think).
However with new market wards one might arise now.

#82 Oct 15 2010 at 2:57 PM Rating: Good
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Furia wrote:
The only problem is how are they going to differentiate between some joker soloing EP's for 200-300 SP and a great party tearing up IT's for the same or higher values.


It's actually pretty easy, SE would do what every other MMO does and only count players that are

A. within combat range of the mob, not just in the zone. Spell/Attack Range in this game is so short this shouldn't be difficult.
B. In combat / engaged with the mob.
#83 Oct 15 2010 at 4:19 PM Rating: Decent
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ixion13 wrote:
Furia wrote:
The only problem is how are they going to differentiate between some joker soloing EP's for 200-300 SP and a great party tearing up IT's for the same or higher values.


It's actually pretty easy, SE would do what every other MMO does and only count players that are

A. within combat range of the mob, not just in the zone. Spell/Attack Range in this game is so short this shouldn't be difficult.
B. In combat / engaged with the mob.



I was actually referencing how they might approach (exploiter) bannings and rollbacks with that statement, not reasons they couldn't fix the system. The A scenario you present would be felled by Autofollow.
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