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SP distribution, reducing us to mediocre playersFollow

#1 Oct 16 2010 at 6:57 AM Rating: Good
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The way SP is gained is ****** up.
I just hit 19 with my marauder. I'm using my own custom build, I'm pretty happy with it and I'd say I'm above your average damage dealer.
Now here's my beef. I just soloed a leve 20 before leveling up, so marauder 18 against 5 duos of amateur raiders and footmen. They all ranked red against me. I can't go easy against two of these, not when fighting them at the same time.

So I manage to pull through these bloody assassins and I get from 25 to 150 SP tops a head. I'm sure that if I had a healer with me and I'd be able to afford tanking them spamming my basic attack I'd get a capped full 500 for each.

So am I supposed to downplay every mob I want as long as I want to progress?

I have a friend who's having the same problem with his conjurer. If he actually uses his spells the mobs go down so easily he doesn't get any SP at all, so he has to sit it out and spam his basic attack.


This system really discourages exceling at damage dealing. Its like every party is a FFXI skill up party: we have to try and make mobs survive for as long as possible.
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#2 Oct 16 2010 at 7:01 AM Rating: Excellent
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I'm sure there will be some adjustments made.

If you can gather some more empirical evidence and aggregate it here the powers that be at SE will respond.
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#3 Oct 16 2010 at 7:13 AM Rating: Excellent
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Damage done and SP awarded are on a negative curve, and this is at the heart of the issue. I can do a 60dmg Light Thrust and be awarded around 40SP, or I can do a 500dmg Bloodbath&Ferocity&300TP&Doomspike to each of the three mobs foolishly stood in a line, and be awarded 70SP.

Due to this inverse curve awards, it is more efficient to keep with the low dmg abilities. I, along with many others, been bringing this up with SE since Day 1 of Alpha. I don't expect it to change any time soon.
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#4 Oct 16 2010 at 7:15 AM Rating: Good
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Wint wrote:
I'm sure there will be some adjustments made.

If you can gather some more empirical evidence and aggregate it here the powers that be at SE will respond.



The amateur footpad's group has been engaged.
Your Light Swing hits the amateur footpad from the left for 53 points of damage.
Your Light Swing hits the amateur footpad for 49 points of damage.
Your Light Swing hits the amateur footpad for 45 points of damage.
You gain 55 axe skill points.
You are no longer under the effect of Foresight.
The amateur footpad's Light Stab hits you for 42 points of damage.
Counter! You hit the amateur footpad for 42 points of damage.
Your Light Swing misses the amateur footpad.
Readying Light Swing...
Light Swing cannot be performed right now.
The amateur footpad's Light Stab hits you for 41 points of damage.
Counter! You hit the amateur footpad for 41 points of damage.
Your axe becomes an extension of your body!
You partially parry the amateur raider's Light Shot, taking 28 points of damage.
You gain 66 axe skill points.
Counter! You hit the amateur raider for 49 points of damage.
The amateur footpad evades your Light Swing.
You partially parry the amateur footpad's Light Slash, taking 29 points of damage.
Counter! You hit the amateur footpad for 48 points of damage.
The amateur raider's Heavy Shot hits you for 59 points of damage.
Counter! You hit the amateur raider for 62 points of damage.
Your Disorient inflicts the amateur footpad with the effect of Disorient x1.
You gain 38 axe skill points.
Your Light Swing hits the amateur footpad for 45 points of damage.
The amateur footpad's Light Slash hits you for 48 points of damage.
Counter! You hit the amateur footpad for 48 points of damage.
Riggys Swordsinger's Light Slash misses the fire elemental.
The amateur raider's Heavy Shot hits you for 64 points of damage.
Counter! You hit the amateur raider for 64 points of damage.
The amateur footpad's Light Slash hits you for 50 points of damage.
Counter! You hit the amateur footpad for 50 points of damage.
Your Bloodbath grants you the effect of Bloodbath.
Your Ferocity grants you the effect of Ferocity.
The amateur footpad is defeated. (2 of 5) (No SP)
Your Skull Sunder removes your Ferocity effect.
Your Skull Sunder hits the amateur footpad for 229 points of damage.
Your Skull Sunder inflicts the amateur footpad with the effect of Skull Sunder.
You absorb 171 HP from the amateur footpad.
Your Skull Sunder removes your Bloodbath effect.
Skull Sunder cannot be performed on a KO'd target.
You partially parry the amateur raider's Light Shot, taking 32 points of damage.
Counter! You hit the amateur raider for 52 points of damage.
The amateur footpad is defeated.
You gain 219 experience points.
You gain 93 axe skill points. (93 for two red mobs)

Your loot list now contains a tallow candle.
Your loot list now contains a tallow candle.
You obtain 177 gil.
The amateur footpad's Luminous Spire hits you for 158 points of damage.
The amateur footpad's Luminous Spire inflicts you with the effect of Magic Defense Down.
Counter! You hit the amateur footpad for 142 points of damage.
The amateur raider's Heavy Shot hits you for 67 points of damage.
Counter! You hit the amateur raider for 67 points of damage.
Your Light Swing misses the amateur raider.
Readying Light Swing...
You are no longer under the effect of Punishing Barbs.
The amateur raider's Close Shot hits you for 41 points of damage.
The amateur raider's Close Shot inflicts you with the effect of Bind.
Your Light Swing hits the amateur raider for 52 points of damage.
You gain 57 axe skill points.
Skull Sunder cannot be used now.
Your Skull Sunder hits the amateur raider for 163 points of damage.
The amateur raider's Close Shot hits you for 42 points of damage.
The amateur raider's Close Shot inflicts you with the effect of Bind.
You are no longer bound.
Your axe becomes an extension of your body!
Your Light Swing hits the amateur raider for 53 points of damage.
Your magic defense is no longer decreased.
Your Light Swing hits the amateur raider for 50 points of damage.
The amateur raider's Puncture hits you for 144 points of damage.
You are no longer bound.
Readying Skull Sunder...
Critical! Your Light Swing hits the amateur raider for 63 points of damage.
The amateur raider is defeated. (2 of 5) (No SP at all)
The amateur raider's Wide Volley hits you for 131 points of damage.
You obtain 140 gil.
Your Skull Sunder hits the amateur raider for 170 points of damage.
Skull Sunder fails to take effect.
The amateur raider is defeated.
You gain 219 experience points.
You gain 123 axe skill points. (123 For both mobs?)

The amateur footpad's party is defeated.




This is with guardian's favor on against red mobs. Do you want me to post the rest of the battles? Because it goes on the same.

Edited, Oct 16th 2010 9:16am by MajidahSihaam
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#5 Oct 16 2010 at 7:17 AM Rating: Good
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hitting my normal attacks (light strike, heavy strike, pummel) only give 20-30 skillpoints / proc against the mobs I am fighting now. Sure I could spam those attacks through the whole fight and hope I survive. Throwing in a Victimize and Concussive blow II sure kills the enemy faster, but if I proc a skillgain on any of those hits I can gain 100-150 SP in a single WS. A fully buffed (raging strikes , ferocity, blindside) Victimize has even netted me 200 sp in one bash. Sure it took down the enemy to half hp .. but 200 sp for a 20 second fight isn't something I would complain about.

I think the SP system is pretty good. Find mobs that are a challenge to bring down and go full out. If the mobs are too easy your SP will suffer. EXP gain is a pretty good form of measurement. Mobs that give you 100 exp aren't going to give as much SP reward as a mob that gives 300 exp / kill.


edit : reading your last post I think it's more of an issue with AOE damage than single target dmg vs SP gain. I have noticed that while using AOE the skills only proc a SP gain on one target even if you hit multiple enemies. Thus killing one enemy might only give you the same SP gain as killing 5 at the same time.

Edited, Oct 16th 2010 9:21am by GusMorgan
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#6 Oct 16 2010 at 7:24 AM Rating: Good
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Kordain wrote:
Damage done and SP awarded are on a negative curve, and this is at the heart of the issue. I can do a 60dmg Light Thrust and be awarded around 40SP, or I can do a 500dmg Bloodbath&Ferocity&300TP&Doomspike to each of the three mobs foolishly stood in a line, and be awarded 70SP.

Due to this inverse curve awards, it is more efficient to keep with the low dmg abilities. I, along with many others, been bringing this up with SE since Day 1 of Alpha. I don't expect it to change any time soon.


^This.
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#7 Oct 16 2010 at 7:27 AM Rating: Good
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You're using Punishing Barb, which done half of the damage in battle and yield no SP. That's the problem.
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#8 Oct 16 2010 at 7:29 AM Rating: Good
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seems like the problem you're having isn't simply crappy SP gains. It's that you have spikes up.

Spike damage doesn't grant SP because you are not performing an action that directly does the dmg. those (2 of 5) mobs all seem to be dieing while you're fighting the first one, or in other words entirely due to spike dmg. I've stopped using spikes during leves that the spike dmg alone could kill an enemy. only during the hard leves where If i don't use it i might die, i'll use spikes.

Also, i'm fairly certain AOE moves only give SP from the primary target. and all SP is stored on a per mob basis.
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#9 Oct 16 2010 at 7:30 AM Rating: Good
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GusMorgan wrote:
hitting my normal attacks (light strike, heavy strike, pummel) only give 20-30 skillpoints / proc against the mobs I am fighting now. Sure I could spam those attacks through the whole fight and hope I survive. Throwing in a Victimize and Concussive blow II sure kills the enemy faster, but if I proc a skillgain on any of those hits I can gain 100-150 SP in a single WS. A fully buffed (raging strikes , ferocity, blindside) Victimize has even netted me 200 sp in one bash. Sure it took down the enemy to half hp .. but 200 sp for a 20 second fight isn't something I would complain about.

I think the SP system is pretty good. Find mobs that are a challenge to bring down and go full out. If the mobs are too easy your SP will suffer. EXP gain is a pretty good form of measurement. Mobs that give you 100 exp aren't going to give as much SP reward as a mob that gives 300 exp / kill.


edit : reading your last post I think it's more of an issue with AOE damage than single target dmg vs SP gain. I have noticed that while using AOE the skills only proc a SP gain on one target even if you hit multiple enemies. Thus killing one enemy might only give you the same SP gain as killing 5 at the same time.

Edited, Oct 16th 2010 9:21am by GusMorgan


This is incorrent. A job like marauder or conjurer which can turn most their attacks into an AOE does NOT benefit from this. You won't get skill ups for each individual mob hit, you will get skill ups for each time you trigger the WS.
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#10 Oct 16 2010 at 7:30 AM Rating: Excellent
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Also, i'm fairly certain AOE moves only give SP from the primary target. and all SP is stored on a per mob basis.


if thats true, then it really screws over mrd and conj (and lnc to a lesser extent). whats the point of playing a class whos main selling point is aoe skills when youre discourage from using your aoe skills to level up?

doesnt make any sense.
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#11 Oct 16 2010 at 7:34 AM Rating: Good
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Khornette wrote:
You're using Punishing Barb, which done half of the damage in battle and yield no SP. That's the problem.


If I wouldn't be using punishing barbs I would be reducing the damage. That's the whole point.
I took my time to get thaumaturge to 10 in order to unlock punishing barbs.
I chose to use it against strong mobs.

And I'm getting SP punished because it's spike damage? Aren't we supposed to aim for mobs to die faster by using every mean at our disposal? I thought that was the point of the exchangeable job abilities.
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#12 Oct 16 2010 at 7:36 AM Rating: Decent
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Quor wrote:
Quote:
Also, i'm fairly certain AOE moves only give SP from the primary target. and all SP is stored on a per mob basis.


if thats true, then it really screws over mrd and conj (and lnc to a lesser extent). whats the point of playing a class whos main selling point is aoe skills when youre discourage from using your aoe skills to level up?

doesnt make any sense.



MajidahSihaam wrote:
A job like marauder or conjurer which can turn most their attacks into an AOE does NOT benefit from this. You won't get skill ups for each individual mob hit, you will get skill ups for each time you trigger the WS.


It THINK is true. I can vouch for that. I haven't really did any kind of exhaustive testing on this though. But for what I've seen... and hence why I never do AOE in leves...


Edited, Oct 16th 2010 9:44am by MajidahSihaam
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#13 Oct 16 2010 at 7:38 AM Rating: Decent
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MajidahSihaam wrote:
Khornette wrote:
You're using Punishing Barb, which done half of the damage in battle and yield no SP. That's the problem.


If I wouldn't be using punishing barbs I would be reducing the damage. That's the whole point.
I took my time to get thaumaturge to 10 in order to unlock punishing barbs.
I chose to use it against strong mobs.

And I'm getting SP punished because it's spike damage? Aren't we supposed to aim for mobs to die faster by using every mean at our disposal? I thought that was the point of the exchangeable job abilities.


Spike damage is not your damage, it isn't dps, it's damage shield. You can aim for more DPS by spamming skills instead? Invigorate = TP regeneration for your skill spamming.
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#14 Oct 16 2010 at 7:43 AM Rating: Good
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Khornette wrote:
MajidahSihaam wrote:
Khornette wrote:
You're using Punishing Barb, which done half of the damage in battle and yield no SP. That's the problem.


If I wouldn't be using punishing barbs I would be reducing the damage. That's the whole point.
I took my time to get thaumaturge to 10 in order to unlock punishing barbs.
I chose to use it against strong mobs.

And I'm getting SP punished because it's spike damage? Aren't we supposed to aim for mobs to die faster by using every mean at our disposal? I thought that was the point of the exchangeable job abilities.


Spike damage is not your damage, it isn't dps, it's damage shield. You can aim for more DPS by spamming skills instead? Invigorate = TP regeneration for your skill spamming.


I'm not asking for spikes to grant SP, I'm saying that it doesn't sound very logical that thanks to my shield damage a fight that could yield 500 SP ends up giving 50 SP.

It is killing the mob faster. Last time I checked this was a fight's objective.
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#15 Oct 16 2010 at 8:10 AM Rating: Default
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poooter wrote:
Also, i'm fairly certain AOE moves only give SP from the primary target. and all SP is stored on a per mob basis.


Exactly why I posted the thread about not using AoE during leves, especially with Guardians Favor (aspect) since it's a waste if you're going to AoE everything.

I completely understand that in many instances it is required to AoE kill to survive. And I hope one day they'll fix it so maybe you at least get a percentage of SP for a not targeted kill.
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#16 Oct 16 2010 at 8:41 AM Rating: Good
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Yep, and punishing barbs is just as punishing to your exp as it is to the mob.
The same goes for Shock Spikes, btw. That's why I tell our Conjurer not to cast
them during leves.

Both abilities are sort of a "last resort", not a main tool to level up.
#17 Oct 16 2010 at 8:51 AM Rating: Decent
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MajidahSihaam wrote:
Khornette wrote:
MajidahSihaam wrote:
Khornette wrote:
You're using Punishing Barb, which done half of the damage in battle and yield no SP. That's the problem.


If I wouldn't be using punishing barbs I would be reducing the damage. That's the whole point.
I took my time to get thaumaturge to 10 in order to unlock punishing barbs.
I chose to use it against strong mobs.

And I'm getting SP punished because it's spike damage? Aren't we supposed to aim for mobs to die faster by using every mean at our disposal? I thought that was the point of the exchangeable job abilities.


Spike damage is not your damage, it isn't dps, it's damage shield. You can aim for more DPS by spamming skills instead? Invigorate = TP regeneration for your skill spamming.


I'm not asking for spikes to grant SP, I'm saying that it doesn't sound very logical that thanks to my shield damage a fight that could yield 500 SP ends up giving 50 SP.

It is killing the mob faster. Last time I checked this was a fight's objective.


If you think of it this way: The objective of the fight is to improve your character's axemanship. This is gained through actual combat experience of swing axe, and not standing still and watch enemies died from shock armour you're wearing. If it's anything, the armour should be the one getting experience instead. If you want to kill mob faster, do some big damage with active skill? I have no problem blasting mobs with Ferocity + Moonrise and Feint every 5 seconds, and most die under 10-15 seconds, netting bout 150-200 SP except those stupid Iron Coblyn.
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#18 Oct 16 2010 at 9:34 AM Rating: Excellent
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I agree 100%. In a conventional system where XP is set, players can find a strategy to maximize their kills per hour, letting them gain more XP. This system is random, and all we can do is find a way to take more actions in battle.
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#19 Oct 16 2010 at 10:22 AM Rating: Decent
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I haven't really paid much attention to the weaponskills, but broad strike definately can proc skill ups off of multiple mobs. I use it all the time on group battles.
#20 Oct 16 2010 at 10:32 AM Rating: Good
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MajidahSihaam wrote:
Khornette wrote:
You're using Punishing Barb, which done half of the damage in battle and yield no SP. That's the problem.


If I wouldn't be using punishing barbs I would be reducing the damage. That's the whole point.
I took my time to get thaumaturge to 10 in order to unlock punishing barbs.
I chose to use it against strong mobs.

And I'm getting SP punished because it's spike damage? Aren't we supposed to aim for mobs to die faster by using every mean at our disposal? I thought that was the point of the exchangeable job abilities.
This is the downfall of the leveling system though, it doesn't encourage swift killing, it actually encourages slow killing. It rewards you more the weaker you are.
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#21 Oct 16 2010 at 10:40 AM Rating: Excellent
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I agree. Good points by the OP and others, like Kordain. The system is detracting from the game...it discourages the use of all the neat abilities that I'm learning.

It's going to have to be addressed with some balancing changes. Shouldn't be too hard to implement (once they know exactly how the scaling will work, at least). Unfortunately, other issues are probably overshadowing it right now.
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#22 Oct 16 2010 at 10:53 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
I have a friend who's having the same problem with his conjurer. If he actually uses his spells the mobs go down so easily he doesn't get any SP at all, so he has to sit it out and spam his basic attack.


if you have played ffxi, this is no different than using only auto attack to skill up no a mob or only ws. the random calculator, and yes, very random, is going to hit or miss every whenever, because you can basic attack way more often, the odds are you skill up faster on these attacks. you don't need as much stamina or tp to use the attacks. also, with your friend, blowing something up in one or two hits is only gonna give the random numbers god one or two chances to hit that sweet spot. slow killing is more chances to win sp.

i do think the game needs some balancing, so i'm on board with you, but most games don't give substantial gain for quick kills.

~Skye
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#23 Oct 16 2010 at 11:03 AM Rating: Good
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SkyeAyatari wrote:
Quote:
I have a friend who's having the same problem with his conjurer. If he actually uses his spells the mobs go down so easily he doesn't get any SP at all, so he has to sit it out and spam his basic attack.


if you have played ffxi, this is no different than using only auto attack to skill up no a mob or only ws. the random calculator, and yes, very random, is going to hit or miss every whenever, because you can basic attack way more often, the odds are you skill up faster on these attacks. you don't need as much stamina or tp to use the attacks. also, with your friend, blowing something up in one or two hits is only gonna give the random numbers god one or two chances to hit that sweet spot. slow killing is more chances to win sp.

i do think the game needs some balancing, so i'm on board with you, but most games don't give substantial gain for quick kills.

~Skye
What? FFXIV is the only game I can think of where you level faster by killing slower, because it's the only game to use skill as a basis for level. FFXI had skilling up, yes, but level was based on exp, and the faster you killed mobs, the faster you leveled. Very simple concept, completely flipped around in FFXIV, with very aggravating results.

I'd chalk it up to another case of SE being unique solely for the sake of being unique. Unfortunately, unique doesn't mean good. There's a reason why square tires don't exist.



Edited, Oct 16th 2010 12:05pm by bsphil
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#24 Oct 16 2010 at 11:07 AM Rating: Excellent
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Eske, Star Breaker wrote:
I agree. Good points by the OP and others, like Kordain. The system is detracting from the game...it discourages the use of all the neat abilities that I'm learning.

It's going to have to be addressed with some balancing changes. Shouldn't be too hard to implement (once they know exactly how the scaling will work, at least). Unfortunately, other issues are probably overshadowing it right now.


They can do that by reversing the curve on tougher monster. This is totally simplified and plucked from my ****, but will serve purposes of showing concept. Lets say I am in a party and fighting something that I couldn't solo. In this situation currently, I can use Basic Attack for 80dmg and 50SP, or Mega Attack for 200dmg and 80SP. There is no reason to use Mega Attack unless we're going to die and the mob needs to drop, as we'll earn less SP than if we spam Basic Attack. Lets flip the curve around, and drop initial SP gain to compensate. Now, I use Basic Attack for 80dmg and 40SP and Mega Attack for 200dmg and 150SP.

What has this done?

Lets look at the SP earned per point of dmg done. By elongating the fight currently we earn more SP, as Basic Attack has a SP/dmg value of 0.625 and Mega Attack of 0.4. Over the course of the fight, you earn more SP spamming Basic Attack than doing Mega Attack. From an SP gaining perspective, Mega Attack is actually detrimental. Now lets look at the reversed curve. Basic Attack has dropped to 0.5 SP/dmg and Mega Attack has moved up to 0.75 SP/dmg. Now, Mega Attack is giving more SP per damage point taken than Basic Attack does, thus will over time prove more efficient than Basic Attack is.

Given that Mega Attack is my newly leveled TP move (and thus not spammable), with the new corrected SP/dmg curve I now have an attack that does high damage and gives better SP/dmg than my level 1 attack, so I am encouraged to use it as much as possible. Since it is a TP move and not spammable however, I still need to use Basic Attack. Now however, I am actively encouraged to use my new abilities as I level up instead of relying on the same level 1 move to gain optimal SP.
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#25 Oct 16 2010 at 11:24 AM Rating: Good
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I don't think it would be unreasonable to add a basic amount of SP simply for the kill. If its blue give 20-40 (plus whatever random you gain in the battle) Greens could go 40-80, anything about that 100. I have on a few occasions done a leve where I dropped all 3 or 4 mobs in the 'group' with wide volley. Wouldn't sting so bad if I picked up a default 20 or so SP

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#26 Oct 16 2010 at 12:08 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
What? FFXIV is the only game I can think of where you level faster by killing slower, because it's the only game to use skill as a basis for level. FFXI had skilling up, yes, but level was based on exp, and the faster you killed mobs, the faster you leveled. Very simple concept, completely flipped around in FFXIV, with very aggravating results.

I'd chalk it up to another case of SE being unique solely for the sake of being unique. Unfortunately, unique doesn't mean good. There's a reason why square tires don't exist.


you are right, if you kill faster your exp will grow faster, but we are talking about skill points, which is why i referred skilling up in ffxi. if you kill mobs faster in ffxiv you will xp faster in ffxiv. if you fight longer, you will skill up more in ffxiv, just like ffxi.

~Skye
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#27 Oct 16 2010 at 12:29 PM Rating: Good
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While I agree there needs to be some tweaks to the SP system, it actually works pretty good. The only change I would make to the system is the frequency of skill ups. I would like to see it give a skill up for every action instead of it being random. Of course the amount of skill points per skill up would have to be adjusted to make up for the higher frequency.

In regards to the way it is now...

I think that, while SE wants to make the game more suitable for solo and casual play, the game still (and should) revolves around group play, specifically party grinding ala FFXI. While soloing and running guildleves my skill ups were minimal. Often around 50-150sp per kill. Once I got into the parties my skill ups went from 300-1000sp per kill. "WAIT WAIT WAIT!!! SP caps at 500sp for a kill! You're a liar!" Nope. As soon as I get a chance to play again, I'll be taking some screen shots to prove my claims, but until then you'll have to take my word for it.

In addition to this, people are making claims that you are rewarded more for killing slowly. This may be true if you're fighting things that are WAY too easy for you or your group, but it's not true otherwise. The amount of skill points you gain per action are scaled based on the amount of damage you deal or heal. In addition the more damage you do, the more chance you have of having a skill up proc (Neither of these actions have been mathematically proven, only observations based on experience; For an example when I use AoE Cure on 8 people that are full or close to full health I have never received a skill up, but when I use Cure on someone that can take the full heal amount I almost always get a skill up). It would also seem that skill up procs occur when an ability is used DURING battle. Not by when damage is dealt. This means that abilities like poison and punishing barbs won't give you skill ups every time they do damage. Only when they are cast will you get a chance for a skill up.

In spite of all that I've said, I do think there are a few bugs with sp gained. In addition to the combat log in this thread, I've also experienced battles where I would gain 300sp during the coarse of the battle but gain nothing at the end of the battle. It may be there I am in fact gaining that sp but it's not displaying it in the combat log, or it may be possible that I'm just not gaining that sp at all. And in some cases I gain more sp at the end of the battle than is shown during the coarse of the battle.

Bottom line, those that are complaining that they aren't gaining enough sp are doing it wrong.
#28 Oct 16 2010 at 4:56 PM Rating: Good
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Am I the only one thats happy that I'm not going for dozens and dozens of fights for a .1 skill up?
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#29 Oct 16 2010 at 5:04 PM Rating: Excellent
Edited by bsphil
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SkyeAyatari wrote:
Quote:
What? FFXIV is the only game I can think of where you level faster by killing slower, because it's the only game to use skill as a basis for level. FFXI had skilling up, yes, but level was based on exp, and the faster you killed mobs, the faster you leveled. Very simple concept, completely flipped around in FFXIV, with very aggravating results.

I'd chalk it up to another case of SE being unique solely for the sake of being unique. Unfortunately, unique doesn't mean good. There's a reason why square tires don't exist.


you are right, if you kill faster your exp will grow faster, but we are talking about skill points, which is why i referred skilling up in ffxi. if you kill mobs faster in ffxiv you will xp faster in ffxiv. if you fight longer, you will skill up more in ffxiv, just like ffxi.

~Skye
If you want to level your physical level faster, craft. Right now physical level doesn't actually mean much. Class rank is far more important. It would be equivalent to your job level in FFXI.
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#30 Oct 16 2010 at 5:05 PM Rating: Excellent
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Quor wrote:
Quote:
Also, i'm fairly certain AOE moves only give SP from the primary target. and all SP is stored on a per mob basis.


if thats true, then it really screws over mrd and conj (and lnc to a lesser extent). whats the point of playing a class whos main selling point is aoe skills when youre discourage from using your aoe skills to level up?

doesnt make any sense.


If SE wanted people to play AoE jobs they wouldn't have created Aldgoats.
#31 Oct 16 2010 at 5:11 PM Rating: Decent
MajidahSihaam wrote:

This is with guardian's favor on against red mobs. Do you want me to post the rest of the battles? Because it goes on the same.


No, gathering evidence doesn't mean posting combat logs. It means posting the outcome of those in concise form over the span of say, 100 fights. That would be empirical evidence. As in, hit an average of <x> times vs. a total of <y> mobs gaining an average of <z> SP per fight.

Red mobs are bad mojo for skillups. I fight them all the time because I enjoy the **** out of it. If not getting skill points is such a disappointment for you, stick to greens/yellows. The SP is much better.
#32 Oct 16 2010 at 5:12 PM Rating: Excellent
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I understand how this doesn't work in practice. The part that really bothers me is how did this ever sound like a good system in theory.
#33 Oct 16 2010 at 5:30 PM Rating: Good
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Quote:
SkyeAyatari wrote:
Quote:
What? FFXIV is the only game I can think of where you level faster by killing slower, because it's the only game to use skill as a basis for level. FFXI had skilling up, yes, but level was based on exp, and the faster you killed mobs, the faster you leveled. Very simple concept, completely flipped around in FFXIV, with very aggravating results.

I'd chalk it up to another case of SE being unique solely for the sake of being unique. Unfortunately, unique doesn't mean good. There's a reason why square tires don't exist.

you are right, if you kill faster your exp will grow faster, but we are talking about skill points, which is why i referred skilling up in ffxi. if you kill mobs faster in ffxiv you will xp faster in ffxiv. if you fight longer, you will skill up more in ffxiv, just like ffxi.

~SkyeIf you want to level your physical level faster, craft. Right now physical level doesn't actually mean much. Class rank is far more important. It would be equivalent to your job level in FFXI.


I will concede to part of your argument, but I still hold strong to the idea of skill requiring a longer fight as it should. Yes, skill is kinda like xp in ffxi, but I disagree with xp being useless. I love leveling a new DoW with my str/dex/vit capped for the levels. I can take on much harder mobs and fight longer because of it. This in turn lets me skill up faster/longer. I dunno, I'm sure people have a their itches they can't scratch about this game's leveling system, but I actually like exactly how it is, aside from the party bugs and mob reset/heal.

~Skye
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#34 Oct 16 2010 at 11:52 PM Rating: Good
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About the OP, that's why I mainly do leves simply for the rewards rather than skillup. There's a sweetspot for each tier where you can solo @ 1star easy enough to get good skillups. Increasing stars as you rank up. Of course using different star levels in parties to accomplish the same thing.

Even then, leves are mostly quick sidequests to earn gil & rewards. Being 18MRD doing a rank20 leve against duos of mobs...you're best bet was to sacrifice good SP for the rewards. For me being conjurer that means I nuke the **** out of the first half of the duo to get it out of the way & then kill the 2nd one slowly. Trying to squeeze whatever SP I can out of it.

Not getting into the debate of it being right or wrong, or offering solutions...just my take on dealing with the system we're in. Certain leves are better for skilling up than others and at different ranks/stars. Most of the time I want the quick gil, marks, & gear and I grind my SP elsewhere.

Edited, Oct 17th 2010 5:07am by TwistedOwl
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#35 Oct 17 2010 at 3:08 AM Rating: Good
14 posts
Stop watching the xp in battle. Check your total sp then fight mobs for 15 minutes and check total sp again. Most times, I get more average sp per hour on easy mobs that die quickly and give **** xp than mobs that are harder and give slightly better sp per mob.
#36 Oct 17 2010 at 3:28 AM Rating: Excellent
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216 posts
The One and Only Aurelius wrote:
Red mobs are bad mojo for skillups. I fight them all the time because I enjoy the **** out of it. If not getting skill points is such a disappointment for you, stick to greens/yellows. The SP is much better.
They are, and that's something SE needs to address. If you fight and defeat tougher mobs, logic says you should get a larger reward. But under the current system that's now how it goes.

I post this in another thread about the SP gain inconsistencies...

OldPost wrote:
On a 19 DoW I soloed a Thickshell and received 225 Experience Points, 140 Skill Points.
Immediately after the fight, I killed a blue Firefly.
From the Firefly, I received 3 Experience Points, 53 Skill Points.

The Thickshell was orange to me and took 39 hits to kill, plus the damage my Shock Spikes did.
The Firefly was blue to me and took 9 hits to kill.

One mob hits for ~190dmg per hit, the other for ~20dmg.

Risk vs reward simply does not exist under the current SP gain system.
I'll also repeat what I said in that other thread and suggest they add a base amount of SP from every mob, so that you never walk away having gained 0SP.
#37 Oct 17 2010 at 4:02 AM Rating: Excellent
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bsphil wrote:
SkyeAyatari wrote:
Quote:
I have a friend who's having the same problem with his conjurer. If he actually uses his spells the mobs go down so easily he doesn't get any SP at all, so he has to sit it out and spam his basic attack.


if you have played ffxi, this is no different than using only auto attack to skill up no a mob or only ws. the random calculator, and yes, very random, is going to hit or miss every whenever, because you can basic attack way more often, the odds are you skill up faster on these attacks. you don't need as much stamina or tp to use the attacks. also, with your friend, blowing something up in one or two hits is only gonna give the random numbers god one or two chances to hit that sweet spot. slow killing is more chances to win sp.

i do think the game needs some balancing, so i'm on board with you, but most games don't give substantial gain for quick kills.

~Skye
What? FFXIV is the only game I can think of where you level faster by killing slower, because it's the only game to use skill as a basis for level. FFXI had skilling up, yes, but level was based on exp, and the faster you killed mobs, the faster you leveled. Very simple concept, completely flipped around in FFXIV, with very aggravating results.

I'd chalk it up to another case of SE being unique solely for the sake of being unique. Unfortunately, unique doesn't mean good. There's a reason why square tires don't exist.


I don't "personally" think it's them being unique for the sake of being unique. It's quite obvious that square enix does a lot of things without really thinking them through. Some one says "Hey I know, how about we do it THIS way?" and another shouts out "Perfect! Put it in ASAP, we have deadlines to meet!" then they add it in in a hurry before thinking "Yeah but... It might have THIS and THAT negative effects... Maybe we should do it another way". That's just how they roll. I am happy to see the new changes coming, although I think they took a bit too long to announce them and implement them at that and there's still much left to be done, but sadly this is just how they operate.

Edited, Oct 17th 2010 3:03am by EndlessJourney
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#38 Oct 17 2010 at 6:20 AM Rating: Decent
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great thread! good ideas, and even better discussion.
I agree that while the SP system is flawed, in nature it is only a design choice on SE's part, and all it's actual faults just come down to balancing (or lack thereof). I really like the idea of a basic sp gain per mob, and i really think that harder mobs should have higher rewards as well. I don't expect to get a colossal amount of improvement in sp gain from fighting a red mob, but i just can't cope with the fact that such an accomplishment should be met with... less SP?! This is downright sad, and has me not doing my favorite thing in any game, which is challenging myself and taking risks. As for SP gained thru skills and spells, i also agree it is awful that, in order to progress at an acceptable pace, I am expected to stick to basic attacks. Are we going to have to do this way into the higher ranks? That's just preposterous, not to mention boring, and nothing short of a crime considering all the cool stuff we'll be picking up along the way. One easy-to-implement, and imho extremely efficient fix for this, would be a higher chance of skill up with non-basic attacks, along with a minimal increase in actual amount awarded.

Maybe then my CON DD will actually be able to something besides healing :P I'm really hoping so, and this is the only reason I still play my class of choice.
#39 Oct 17 2010 at 7:40 AM Rating: Good
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bsphil wrote:
There's a reason why square tires don't exist.


I initially read this as "There's a reason why Square Enix tires don't exist" and it made me chuckle. Hi, I'd like some 15" SE radials for my virtual car.

Edited, Oct 17th 2010 9:41am by BartelX
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#40 Oct 17 2010 at 8:11 AM Rating: Decent
14 posts
I read the first half of the thread, skimmed the second half, but I think one issue that's not being factored in is continually fighting multiple mobs. Now, I'm not sure how viable it is with the current distribution of mobs across the world, but if you can keep fighting at a steady pace, you'll still get more overall SP using your weaponskills and killing rapidly if you can keep the mobs coming.

Say you're getting 30 SP for a regular attack or 50 SP for your weaponskill, if you can keep doing weaponskills you'll get more SP over time. You'll just have to fight more mobs to do it.

I think when they rework the spawn distribution like they've talked about, it'll be more viable to kill things the "right" way since there won't be as much downtime between fights, making your weaponskills and big magics more useful again.
#41 Oct 17 2010 at 2:21 PM Rating: Default
3 posts
well.... @least u still get sp for mobs extremely weaker than u if u play wow if a mob 5 lvl lower dan u u get no xp for it newaiz so stop whinging if u want a longer fight go look for mob dat r as strong as u den it will last longer
oo and just becoz u r an op tank can down weak mob fast doesn't mean da game stuffed up think about wat da purgurlist have to go through to rnk up since dey can only hit 1 target unless da mobs line up in a line
#42 Oct 17 2010 at 3:29 PM Rating: Decent
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Seems like an easy fix to the problems would be raising the cap for how much SP orange and red mobs give, or change all of them so each color is more than the next. They should also add in chains so people actually get rewarded for killing faster.
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#43 Oct 17 2010 at 3:43 PM Rating: Excellent
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Cadant wrote:
Seems like an easy fix to the problems would be raising the cap for how much SP orange and red mobs give, or change all of them so each color is more than the next. They should also add in chains so people actually get rewarded for killing faster.


the problem is that mob colors dont have a value. actions have a % chance to grant X points, which seems to be based on party size, damage done, and who knows what. SE needs to realize why they only used this system in 1 game in the first place, and get rid of it.
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