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FFXIV Player Opinons: Dye SystemFollow

#1 Oct 16 2010 at 1:09 PM Rating: Good
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In an effort to get an idea about the general Final Fantasy XIV player's opinion on portions of the game, I plan on making a series of posts that explore systems in the game that have not been at the forefront of discussion. The purpose of this post is not to give complaints about a particular system ("dyes are terrible"), but a place express your critical views on an issue ("I like the way the dye system works because it feels realistic; if you have a Hempen Tabard dyed grey and use it to make Bronze Chainmail, the Tabard portion will be grey"), giving reasons why you like or dislike the system. Feel free to include your own ideas on what improvements could be made to the system, be it a simple user interface change or something more complex.


For those that are not aware of how the system works, here is an example: in order to create a Hempen Tabard, a player must combine a Hempen Tabard Front, Hempen Tabard Back, and Hempen Yarn. If a player wanted to create a Hempen Tabard (Grey), the player would need to combine a Hempen Tabard Front (Grey), Hempen Tabard Back (Grey), and Hempen Yarn.

The difference in these two recipes are the parts, which are already dyed. To create a Hempen Tabard Back, a player must combine two Undyed Hempen Cloth and one Hempen Yarn. To create a Hempen Tabard Back (Grey), a player must combine two Lead-grey Hempen Cloth and one Hempen Yarn. Undyed Hempen Cloth is created by combining three Hempen Yarn, while Lead-grey Hempen Cloth is created by combing three Hempen Yarn and one Lead-grey Hemp Dye.


A majority of people I spoke to thought that the dye system was poorly implemented. The major complaint was that they believed the system should have been about character customization, but the implementation made it seem like character customization was an afterthought. That is, one can customize a piece of equipment if they create it themselves, but if a player purchases a piece of equipment from another player or obtains it as a quest reward, the player is unable to customize that piece of equipment, if he or she does not like it.


Player Opinions
- Dyes should be used to customize your character and everything should have an undyed version. It is crazy that changing a dyed component for an undyed one will create a completely different piece of equipment.

- You shouldn't be unable to make an item just because you don't have the right dye...a dye is not going to make my armor more effective in battle. It should be something you can add for customization.

- I don't get it. If you don't have the right dye, then just make the undyed version? [Me: What about items that don't have an undyed version?] Ah, yeah, very few don't have undyed; forgot about that. They probably just overlooked it, since there are items that have materials, but no finished product.

- I'm of the opinion that you should make the final product, then apply a dye to it, not require dye for each of the parts. It's just another unneeded aspect to unnecessarily complicate ****.

- You can have more than one color on your garment. [Implying, I believe, that adding a dye to a piece of equipment would not take into account pieces of the equipment that were dyed different colors.]


What is your opinion?
#2 Oct 16 2010 at 1:14 PM Rating: Decent
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The dye system does seem poorly implemented but then again as an avid crafter I would say there are several poorly implemented areas in the crafting classes.
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#3 Oct 16 2010 at 1:16 PM Rating: Good
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Well, MMO makers are always looking for ways to create money sinks which helps to keep the economy from inflating laterally.

I think NPCs should dye the equipment as long as the price isn't whacked out.. or scales according to the level of the item.

Edited, Oct 16th 2010 3:16pm by Lefein
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#4 Oct 16 2010 at 1:31 PM Rating: Good
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I love that you can customize your gear with dyes however making dyes for use it crafting should be easier or have an npc sell them, it was a very well thought out idea and a very poorly implemented one
#5 Oct 16 2010 at 2:21 PM Rating: Decent
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Without the dye system as it currently is, botanists would be completely out of a job.

To a certain extent, but not as much, miners would be as well.

These two's main jobs are to get dyes for people.
#6 Oct 16 2010 at 3:07 PM Rating: Excellent
Meowshi wrote:
Without the dye system as it currently is, botanists would be completely out of a job.

To a certain extent, but not as much, miners would be as well.

These two's main jobs are to get dyes for people.



I think you have it backwards my friend, I look to Bot/Min for logs/ore, it's not quite efficient leveling and money wise to really focus on quarrying/harvesting over logging, since both activities tend to fill your inventory quite quickly with crap. Not to say its not bad, but think of it as an added bonus. Purely focusing on these will end up with a surplus of dyes floating around. remember a stack of 12 moss/bugs yields 144 dyes, and while weaving needs one dye per cloth, leather needs only a single dye to make 4 pieces of leather. As to Botanist, you shouldn't be focusing purely on gathering moss. Carpenters need logs and branches, Weavers need the base materials to make thread, Alch and cooks need grains and vegies.

But I tend to think they overcomplicated the dyeing system in this game, I'd rather go to an npc that opens a menu and lets me select what parts of my gear I wish dyed, like a deep red for body and the sleaves with a cloth dye, while I can dye the leather pieces and trim a nice black. It would let a little more variety be available in the game than it is at the moment.
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#7 Oct 16 2010 at 3:30 PM Rating: Decent
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I've always thought what made Final Fantasy XI stand out from other MMOs was that while fantasy, it seemed to stay more realistic than others. I would expect them to carry that over into their new product and it indeed seems so.

If I were to ask my grandma to make me a sweater for christmas, her question would be 'What color do you want?' When I tell her Green she is going to go to the store and buy that color yarn. Yarn which started out undyed, was then dyed and sold as a colored item. She would then knit me that green sweater. Inevitably it would end up being Hume size trying to fit on an Elvaan, but it would be green.

Point of the story, they tried to make the system as real as possible, making the color be there from the begining of the process. That said, I can then take my green sweater to a store (don't ask me what one :-p) and they can dye it another color for me (granted the original color isn't too dark). I like how they implemented it (I'm not a weaver/leatherer so it doesn't bother me in-game), but I don't see why there can't be an option to dye a product after it's finished as well. Maybe have it cost more to re-dye a dyed item, or add a bleaching process to remove the colors.
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#8 Oct 16 2010 at 3:34 PM Rating: Good
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Dyes are one of the few things that make alchemists "necessary" as it were. Without dyes and glues Alchemists would be as useless as culinarians are right now.
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#9 Oct 16 2010 at 4:01 PM Rating: Decent
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Is it just me or does anyone else recall S/E mentioning that craafters would beable to create their own custom color for when they create clothing armor etc order to make their products differ from other crafters?

I agree, I feel that all these items should have an under version. However I feel. the process of dying said item should be handled differently then what some have said here.

I feel if you have an undyed. finished product you can still dye it whethe by yourself, npc, or a crafters but you lose the option of picking and choosing coloring individual pieces. You choose your color and all undyedpieces are dyed that color.

Now during the actual crafting process itself, you have the option of mixing and matching colors by just using the parts that youve already dyed or even leaving pieces undyed inplace of any undyed pieces of a recipe so-long as the part itself is the same. Basically leaving custom pieces made to order as they should be.

Just my thoughts.
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#10 Oct 16 2010 at 4:55 PM Rating: Decent
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Olorinus the Vile wrote:
Dyes are one of the few things that make alchemists "necessary" as it were. Without dyes and glues Alchemists would be as useless as culinarians are right now.


To those that carry this sentiment: do you feel this way because you believe that SquareEnix would change the system in a way that would make certain professions useless?

(I'm going to quickly inject my own opinion here: I don't think that moving the dying of items to finished products would make dyes less-requested. In any MMO I've played with dying, dyes have been items that sell well and sell often. People like to personalize their equipment and I suspect there are people who don't buy dye now that would buy dye if they could use it themselves; that is, without being required to get a profession to a high enough rank to make the item themselves.)
#11 Oct 16 2010 at 4:58 PM Rating: Excellent
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I personally dislike the dye system as it is because, like so many other facets of XIV, its an illusory choice that is actually forced on the player. It's still early in the game and despite the gorgeous graphics and fantastic art style, im not concerned with cosmetic appearances yet.

There have been plenty of times when I have simply wanted to create a useful item for stats and I haven't cared WHAT color it was - but dye of a particular color always prevents me from creating the item i want. Sometimes the necessity of dye has prevented me from crafting an item completely, which feels more like a restriction than an option for customization.

I feel like if I dont mind running around wearing ugly undyed gear then i should be able to do that. I dont care, other players dont care and the monsters trying to eat my face DEFINITELY dont care. Being COMPLETELY unable to make a hat or gloves or whatever because of the color just seems unnecessarily limiting, and it feels like a cheap obstacle.

I understand this is how SE creates complexity and interdependence in their gaming systems though; by giving the player no other choice and beating them over the head with restrictions.

I like the idea about NPC-dyeing, or being able to replace a dye in a recipe with ANY other color or no color at all.

Edited, Oct 16th 2010 10:59pm by Timorith
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#12 Oct 16 2010 at 5:19 PM Rating: Excellent
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Timorith wrote:
I feel like if I dont mind running around wearing ugly undyed gear then i should be able to do that. I dont care, other players dont care and the monsters trying to eat my face DEFINITELY dont care.


O.O at the thought of mobs aggroing COLOR as well as Sight and Sound (I'm looking at you 'random bull type mob' I haven't seen yet).
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#13 Oct 16 2010 at 5:34 PM Rating: Excellent
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AshlarThePaladin wrote:
O.O at the thought of mobs aggroing COLOR...
...

That would be ... awesome.
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#14 Oct 16 2010 at 5:43 PM Rating: Excellent
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Oh wth.. why did we all just get aggro and die? We were almost there...
<quick scan of party>
Damnit Leeroy! I told everyone not to wear Purple... Demon Marmots HATE purple!
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#15 Oct 16 2010 at 5:52 PM Rating: Good
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Tidane wrote:
Olorinus the Vile wrote:
Dyes are one of the few things that make alchemists "necessary" as it were. Without dyes and glues Alchemists would be as useless as culinarians are right now.


To those that carry this sentiment: do you feel this way because you believe that SquareEnix would change the system in a way that would make certain professions useless?

(I'm going to quickly inject my own opinion here: I don't think that moving the dying of items to finished products would make dyes less-requested. In any MMO I've played with dying, dyes have been items that sell well and sell often. People like to personalize their equipment and I suspect there are people who don't buy dye now that would buy dye if they could use it themselves; that is, without being required to get a profession to a high enough rank to make the item themselves.)


That may be true in the future - but right now I don't think most people are concerned about the color of their armor as much as getting it. Until the economy inflates a bit you can't count on whimsical buys. If you don't think so - give me the name of one person who has already become a millionaire because of leveling culinarian. Since food stats are at this point either crapola (see dat mining thread) or unknown - no one is buying eats. Have you spent gil on food lately?

I already make paints and dyes that I just vendor because there is no known use for them and people would only buy them by accident.

I guess what I am saying is in my mind meddling with the dye system would essentially be a nerf of alchemist. And atm I have a vested interest in protecting it....

Smiley: grin
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#16 Oct 16 2010 at 9:07 PM Rating: Good
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Olorinus the Vile wrote:
Have you spent gil on food lately?
No, but that has a lot more to do with the lack of an auction house and the fact that my inventory is currently overflowing with crafting materials I would like to use but am unable to, for various reasons.

I suspect the reason that most are not buying food, as you stated, is because there appears to be no real benefits to doing so. The foods that we have encounters so far have subpar effects (compared to what we experienced in FFXI) and we have no metrics to compare food usage versus no food usage. In Final Fantasy XI, it was possible to see a fairly extreme difference in your performance when using a food. Until someone finds a food that can provide a similar effect, it is unlikely that people will go looking for food.

#17 Oct 17 2010 at 10:20 PM Rating: Good
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I personally think the system is gorgeous and makes give us another layer to customize our characters, while it may be trouble some to create colored materials to craft colored final products, I believe this approach makes wonder for the game immersion and could be solved in the future when some crafters start selling colored fabric and leather instead only final products.

The only think I don't like it's when the color system is used to restrict the level of a synthesis for example the spiked bronze axe use a buffalo leather strap(black) which requires a component made by leather-craft of level 25, when the normal strap could be made from lvl 20.

That sort of problem don't make much sense since the color of the leather can't possible affect the output of my weapon.

Ken
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#18 Oct 17 2010 at 10:34 PM Rating: Decent
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The dyeing system in Aion was good in my opinion. Simple, easy, and inexpensive (except for some more rare colors). If I want my outfit to all match, I should be able to do so.
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#19 Oct 18 2010 at 12:36 AM Rating: Decent
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kenage wrote:
I personally think the system is gorgeous and makes give us another layer to customize our characters, while it may be trouble some to create colored materials to craft colored final products, I believe this approach makes wonder for the game immersion and could be solved in the future when some crafters start selling colored fabric and leather instead only final products.

The only think I don't like it's when the color system is used to restrict the level of a synthesis for example the spiked bronze axe use a buffalo leather strap(black) which requires a component made by leather-craft of level 25, when the normal strap could be made from lvl 20.

That sort of problem don't make much sense since the color of the leather can't possible affect the output of my weapon.

Ken


As far as I know, buffalo leather (regardless of color) is a rank 25 synthesis. The straps (regular or dyed) are rank 20. The difference between the undyed and dyed versions for a particular items appears to be in the support recommendation. Undyed leather that recommends common facilities will recommend guild facilities for the dyed versions.
#20 Oct 18 2010 at 1:33 AM Rating: Excellent
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When I first heard of the dye system, I imagined something really simple.
I figured there would just be plain recipes for gear that didn't include dye... then crafters could take the finished product and synth it with a dye to color it whatever they chose. Pretty easy... kind of a bummer it's not like that.

Throw a sheepskin armguard in there with a blue dye, and boom... blue sheepskin armguard. :P
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#21 Oct 18 2010 at 6:08 AM Rating: Excellent
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Timorith wrote:
AshlarThePaladin wrote:
O.O at the thought of mobs aggroing COLOR...
...

That would be ... awesome.


Makes me happy just visualizing a Amalj'aa saying, "Oh, that tunic does NOT go with those pants. I'm sorry, but I'm going to have to eviscerate you now."
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#22 Oct 18 2010 at 6:18 AM Rating: Decent
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AshlarThePaladin wrote:
I've always thought what made Final Fantasy XI stand out from other MMOs was that while fantasy, it seemed to stay more realistic than others. I would expect them to carry that over into their new product and it indeed seems so.



more realistic ? i mean c'mon you need crystals to cut wood or cook stuff ?
#23 Oct 18 2010 at 11:38 AM Rating: Decent
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First of all, I totally agree that every piece of gear should have an undyed version.

Second, maybe it's just me, but I found it extremely hard to get the mats to make the dye. So far I'd just found the spot to farm the moss to make lead-grey dye, but I only got 4 mosses in about two hours. The worst part about this is that most of mats are gathered from Harvest, but Botanist doesn't have the ability to find Harvest point, so I had to walk across the map and when I found a Harvest point, I would have to mark it down. That makes gathering the mats even harder.

Third, I'm always curious that why exactly we need this dye system? I always think the dye system is something extra to add on a piece of armor to make it more appealing. But as a crafter with the current system, IF everything has an undyed version, I'm pretty sure there're not many people would want to go through the hassel to dye the gears. From a business stand point, the dyed version of a piece of gear would dramatically increase the cost to make it. Let's take the OP's Hempen Tabard as an example, to make a Lead-grey Hempon Cloth needs to take an extra step to harvest the moss as a Botanist, then turn it into dyes as an Alchemy. If you don't get the mats yourself, you'll have to spend around 750-1000 gil to buy the dye for each piece of lead-grey hempen cloth, and you need three pieces of them to make the gear, so that's at least 2250 gil more. The stats on the two Tabards are the same, so there's no way to sell the grey tabard for 2000 more. So if they want to make the dyed version cost more money and effort to make, then they should make the stats slightly better then the undyed version. If they want the dye system just to make gears more appealing, then they should lower the cost for crafters to make them. They can either sell the dye from vendor, or at least sell the moss at vendor for a low price. If the dyed version of a piece of gear costs about 1/10 more than the undyed version, I think people make be willing to spend that little extra money to get the color they like.
#24 Oct 18 2010 at 11:59 AM Rating: Good
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dunlag wrote:
First of all, I totally agree that every piece of gear should have an undyed version.


Like the undyed Hempen Robe! Which requires an undyed Hempen Robe Front to make! Which requires a Mole-Brown Hempen Cloth to make!

Hey, wait a minute...
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#25 Oct 18 2010 at 2:02 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
dunlag wrote:
First of all, I totally agree that every piece of gear should have an undyed version.


Like the undyed Hempen Robe! Which requires an undyed Hempen Robe Front to make! Which requires a Mole-Brown Hempen Cloth to make!

Hey, wait a minute...


I made myself a bone stave last night, required sheep straps (grey) which require slate gray sheep leather, which require slate gray dye and sheep skin AND guild support or you phail. Oh and did I mention there is not a single spec of gray in my BONE colored stave?

I totally understand this system lol
/sarcasim.

Just glad I finally have all crafts to 10+ so I can make this stuff myself.
#26 Oct 18 2010 at 2:27 PM Rating: Decent
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Just a bit off topic, do you guys know any specific spot(s) to farm those mosses and bugs to make the dye? Please share if you do. I only found one spot that I could harvest the moss to make lead-grey dye, which is west of Camp Skull Valley, on the way to the next camp on the west. I don't have the cord with me now, but I'll provide the cords when I get to login.
#27 Oct 18 2010 at 2:38 PM Rating: Good
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For right now, anyway, dyes and dyed items are just a way of artifically padding the item database, to make it seem like there's a huge array of choices when there really isn't. It's almost as if they couldn't be bothered to figure out how to make the engine support multiple variations of the same item, so they added them all as separate items. This is kind of odd, given that XI supported item variations in the form of augments, but I guess stats and textures are handled so differently that they couldn't use the same system for dyed items.
#28 Oct 18 2010 at 3:18 PM Rating: Decent
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I just wish you could use dyes on already completed items, or even just the already completed components.

For example, I can't dye sheep leather after it has been created, only while it is being created. So whereas before, I could realistically keep a stack of undyed sheep leather around, I can't now, because if I need a different colored leather, I need to start from scratch.

It just doesn't make sense to force it to be a process that can only happen at one specific point, when in actuality, it could easily be performed at any of the stages.
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#29 Oct 18 2010 at 4:45 PM Rating: Good
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I agree with the "every item should have an un-dyed version" that uses un-dyed ingredients.

My opinion is scrap this nonsense of dyes and create an NPC to do this with a nominal charge to dye the finished product. Or sell the dyes at the NON GUILD NPC so everyone can get the dyes they need to make the products.

Edited, Oct 18th 2010 3:46pm by Staph
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#30 Oct 18 2010 at 7:18 PM Rating: Decent
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It might just be a way to implement a dye system easily. Bet it's a lot easier to just have different items/dats for different colors.
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#31 Oct 18 2010 at 10:06 PM Rating: Good
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Definitely agree with the 'every item should have an undyed version', it really makes no sense for the system to work any other way.
That said I'd like the system to be more open in many ways, I'd like to have some elbow room with mats, for example using any kind of buckle I like when one is required, but the quality of the mats would effect the stats of the created item; this would save hours of searching for buffalo leather strap ochre red, only to find I've mistakenly bought ox blood red x_x

I also feel dyes are a little unfair right now, I can currently make a total of four, two of which I can actually use as a weaver - shouldn't the colour output be equal among crafters? Why do I need a different type of dye for each material type, this makes the system less customisable - not to mention I don't have the bag space for pots and pots of dye.
Red dye is red, blue dye is blue - I don't mind gathering the ingredients in different locations but as far as I'm concerned the dye should be universal for equipment, special rare dyes can work differently but normal dyes should be okay for hemp/cotton/sheep/buffalo - whatever so we can customize as we see fit.

Why not just have the primary dye colours? Those of us who know our colour wheels can mix to our hearts content for more customisable dyes!
#32 Oct 19 2010 at 4:38 AM Rating: Decent
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warhammer online had a pretty good dye system in my opinion. It had both an Npc that could dye your armor piece by piece or all at once, and then there were dye drops from rare monsters or quests that were more rare than the colors the npc had. Something similar to that in this game would be awesome i think.
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#33 Oct 19 2010 at 5:01 AM Rating: Excellent
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Everyone tends to forget though that dying is not as simple a process as one might thing, to dye something in real life you have to soak the entire item in a boiling vat of dye, let it soak in the dye. If you were to put metal and other such items on the finished product, then realisticly the entire item would be screaming of that color and the metal might have a tint, as well as probably some oxidization to the metal. Leather would be desroyed from further boiling process as well.

So as SE is aiming for a more realistic dye system it makes sense they would do it this way. You can't just paint dye on either, then it would be only skin deep and wear off almost instantly. In short I prefer this system as it's more realistic and they are trying to go for a realistic feel. I do though realize there are tye dying processes, but it would still ruin metal and leather items and is only usefull on say a plain cotton T-shirt or something.

But I'm just a gatherer, not a crafter, don't see the problem still aside from it requiring a different ingredient.
#34 Oct 19 2010 at 5:28 AM Rating: Good
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Olorinus the Vile wrote:
Dyes are one of the few things that make alchemists "necessary" as it were. Without dyes and glues Alchemists would be as useless as culinarians are right now.



Hey hey, we have GLUE -.-
#35 Oct 19 2010 at 7:13 AM Rating: Good
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"It's just another unneeded aspect to unnecessarily complicate sh*t. "
Pretty much that, yeah. It could be way simpler, way better.
But they chose the worst path to go...what can I say?
#36 Oct 19 2010 at 9:54 AM Rating: Decent
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There are technical limitations to offering the ability to dye anything/everything. I'm not saying they're insurmountable limitations; the LOTRO dye system involves buying the dye and applying it to finished gear. You can dye and redye your gear as often as you want if I'm not mistaken. And any given dye works on any given piece of gear regardless of whether it's cloth or metal.

I have a variety of dyes on hand for cloth and leather. I've got scale bugs for at least 3 more colors on hand as well, but neither the alchemy skill to make them nor the leatherworking skill to use them. And I'm not going to lie, having items I could make as armorer that require not only rank 25+ tanner produced leather pieces but specific dyed pieces is a bit of a nuisance. I could get the leather if I was really desperate to make the armor, but finding it in the appropriate dyed colors is not easy. My best bet at this point (short of ranking up alchemy and tanner higher than they are now) is to go camp the alchemy guild in Ul'dah for an alchemist and have over the mats, shards, and some gil and then toddle off to Gridania and stalk the tanner's guild with dye and buffalo skin in hand (along with more shards and gil).

All of this will change as the game matures and even moreso when the retainer ward search function is added, but you have to know any savvy tanner is going to charge a premium for soot-black buffalo leather and ochre buffalo straps.
#37 Oct 19 2010 at 10:05 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
There are technical limitations to offering the ability to dye anything/everything.
I disagree here. I played City of Heroes and the colouring process on that game worked by using grey images which were then tinted with the colour you wanted. The end result meant players were free to choose a rainbow of colours for their various armour pieces without any technical hangups. The same was later applied to player's powers as well.

The dye system works to a point, but I do agree its somewhat a over complicated process, even if it is more realistic. That being said, there is some leeway for customisation, what with being able to (apparently) combine different coloured halves to create a unique flavour to your armours.

My only true gripe is that the colours aren't more vivid. Yellows seem more like off-beige and reds are closer to browns. It would be nice to have more options available for colouring equipment, but it would be nicer to make the actual colours more pronounced.
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#38 Oct 19 2010 at 11:17 AM Rating: Decent
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mjv wrote:
Everyone tends to forget though that dying is not as simple a process as one might thing, to dye something in real life you have to soak the entire item in a boiling vat of dye, let it soak in the dye. If you were to put metal and other such items on the finished product, then realisticly the entire item would be screaming of that color and the metal might have a tint, as well as probably some oxidization to the metal. Leather would be desroyed from further boiling process as well.

So as SE is aiming for a more realistic dye system it makes sense they would do it this way. You can't just paint dye on either, then it would be only skin deep and wear off almost instantly. In short I prefer this system as it's more realistic and they are trying to go for a realistic feel. I do though realize there are tye dying processes, but it would still ruin metal and leather items and is only usefull on say a plain cotton T-shirt or something.

But I'm just a gatherer, not a crafter, don't see the problem still aside from it requiring a different ingredient.


I totally agreed to make the dye system more realistic, and even tho I don't know the actual process to make a piece of dyed cloth in real life, I would assume you have to make the cloth first, then dye it in other color. If you look at the recipes, Undyed Hempen Cloth is made from 3 Hempen Yarns (original color), and Lead-grey Hempen Cloth is made from 3 Hempen Yarns + 1 Lead-grey Hemp Dye. The thing is that we should be able to make stacks of Undyed Hempen Cloth first, then depends on what color we want (or we need to make a specific piece of gear), then we dye the cloth to that color and make the gear. Same thing goes for other parts, if my gear needs some sort of Leather Shoulder Guard, then I should first make the undyed version of this shoulder guard, and then dye it in the specific color, then use it to make a shirt or something.
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