Forum Settings
       
This Forum is Read Only

Market Wards still fail?Follow

#52 Oct 17 2010 at 10:02 PM Rating: Default
Whales wrote:
The One and Only Aurelius wrote:
And the benefit to the playerbase is that it will make it that much harder and more time consuming for any one player (or even group of players) to corner the market on much of anything by buying low and then selling at inflated prices.


Why is that?


Because you have to physically visit every retainer you want to buy from which not only makes it more time consuming to buy everything, it leaves a window for other players to move in and buy as well. In a game like FFXI, you could literally stand in one spot spamming searches for a particular item and buy anything that came up within a matter of seconds. Not an option when you have to run your search, find the NPC, open their list, buy their items, move to next NPC, repeat. For Joe Average player just looking for a new piece of armor or some mats he needs for crafting, it's not a big deal. For Tom RMT trying to corner the market on something, it's going to be a lot harder and a lot more time consuming with much less reliable results.
#53 Oct 17 2010 at 10:16 PM Rating: Excellent
***
1,636 posts
Whales wrote:
The One and Only Aurelius wrote:
And the benefit to the playerbase is that it will make it that much harder and more time consuming for any one player (or even group of players) to corner the market on much of anything by buying low and then selling at inflated prices.


Why is that?


I have to agree, RMT and or cartel market dominance is not the best way to defend the current system. Separating wards, no global search, finding retainers all add to transaction time. Assuming nobody at all works together, everyone is on equal footing. For a single person to dominate every ward is impossible. But RMT work as units. If the goal of the day is to buy all the iron ingots/nuggets and mark them up, they could easily divide up and cover that in a much more reasonable amount of time.

To compare with a global AH, one player could buy up everything in the span of a few seconds/minutes, I honestly don't recall how long it took to buy 20+ items in the AH. global AH's remove RMT's team/unit advantage. Now I know they did dominate certain items, but that was due to pooled resources, gil pools. A wealthy LS could have in theory done the same thing by pooling together gil.

Where in FF14 a player has a chance to find an item before RMT can buy it up with the intent of marking up the prices, in FF11's AH every player had the same chance to find an item in the AH and bid before the RMT guys did. I'll admit that the retainer system does shuffle things up a bit, and does slightly increase the chance that a real player will find their item before someone trying to block out the market, it also has the same slowdown every time a player buys anything.

I'm a little surprised with SE and the RMT issue. They seem so worried about it, and mention some of their ideas are intended to prevent it, but they're so awful at stopping it. Not only is their market system fairly weak against cohesive market units, but they are adding gil into the game so rapidly that inflation is bound to happen, even without bot farmers. Not to mention the biggest effect, of gear being near exclusive to crafting. You ask the majority of WOW players if gold sellers affect them, and unless they are a miner they'll probably say no. WOW's economy is almost entirely consumables, gear and other must haves all come from other sources.


TL;DR version : Increasing transaction time is good for RMT. Market wards hurt regular players more than them.
____________________________


#54 Oct 17 2010 at 10:30 PM Rating: Excellent
Sage
**
562 posts
The One and Only Aurelius wrote:
Whales wrote:
The One and Only Aurelius wrote:
And the benefit to the playerbase is that it will make it that much harder and more time consuming for any one player (or even group of players) to corner the market on much of anything by buying low and then selling at inflated prices.


Why is that?


Because you have to physically visit every retainer you want to buy from which not only makes it more time consuming to buy everything, it leaves a window for other players to move in and buy as well. In a game like FFXI, you could literally stand in one spot spamming searches for a particular item and buy anything that came up within a matter of seconds. Not an option when you have to run your search, find the NPC, open their list, buy their items, move to next NPC, repeat. For Joe Average player just looking for a new piece of armor or some mats he needs for crafting, it's not a big deal. For Tom RMT trying to corner the market on something, it's going to be a lot harder and a lot more time consuming with much less reliable results.


Not necessarily. It wasn't exactly quick to purchase 100 goods from the FFXI AH, and browsing from retainer to retainer with the recent change in how the bazaars work is actually quite fast. We don't know how the Ward search will work exactly just yet, nor how fast it will be, but there are a lot more factors that go into establishing a monopoly other than just buying up all available goods.

I don't believe the retainer and ward system presents any more of an anti-monopoly gambit than a traditional auction house.

Buying low and selling high is a viable market strategy. Goods will only sell at prices which the market will support, the equilibrium between supply and demand. It's actually a lot harder to corner the market like this than it seems and I think the concern over this type of behavior is extremely overblown.

Edited, Oct 18th 2010 12:36am by Whales
____________________________
FFXIV - Fellows - Fabul
FFXI - Fellows - Gilgamesh


#55 Oct 17 2010 at 10:42 PM Rating: Good
Sage
**
562 posts
KujaKoF wrote:
To compare with a global AH, one player could buy up everything in the span of a few seconds/minutes, I honestly don't recall how long it took to buy 20+ items in the AH. global AH's remove RMT's team/unit advantage. Now I know they did dominate certain items, but that was due to pooled resources, gil pools. A wealthy LS could have in theory done the same thing by pooling together gil.


Great point. It's actually a lot easier to corner the market on low-supply goods because supply is the biggest factor in establishing market dominance, not the rate at which you purchase the goods. These items however will still abide by the laws of supply and demand, thus no matter how much a LS, individual or RMT corners the market on them you will never pay more for the item than you think it's worth.

A retainer search by ward or global AH isn't going to drastically alter the time by which those individuals are able to search out and buy those rare items when they become available.
____________________________
FFXIV - Fellows - Fabul
FFXI - Fellows - Gilgamesh


#56 Oct 17 2010 at 11:26 PM Rating: Default
*****
11,576 posts
KujaKoF wrote:
Whales wrote:
The One and Only Aurelius wrote:
And the benefit to the playerbase is that it will make it that much harder and more time consuming for any one player (or even group of players) to corner the market on much of anything by buying low and then selling at inflated prices.


Why is that?


I have to agree, RMT and or cartel market dominance is not the best way to defend the current system. Separating wards, no global search, finding retainers all add to transaction time. Assuming nobody at all works together, everyone is on equal footing. For a single person to dominate every ward is impossible. But RMT work as units. If the goal of the day is to buy all the iron ingots/nuggets and mark them up, they could easily divide up and cover that in a much more reasonable amount of time.


Until the first wave of bannings sending RMT scrambling to establish new accounts to start over. You only need one character to corner the market on a particular item with an auction house. You'd need a dozen or more to do it with retainer wards.
#57 Oct 18 2010 at 1:39 AM Rating: Default
***
1,408 posts
Said it once, say it again, search function is coming and when it does I will be much happier. But to be frank I am utterly useless at remembering names so im screwed XD

Still prefer this system then the AH.
____________________________


If my velocity starts to make you sweat, then just don't
let go
#58 Oct 18 2010 at 2:36 AM Rating: Decent
Scholar
*
179 posts
Whatever you try to do it will be a fail, people go to first ward see tons of retainers, go through them one by one, takes 40 min-1 hour, they get sick of it and don’t go to other wards, and then they move their retainers to the first ward.
So when SE introduces the search function, we will have one ward with hundreds of retainers, and it will take a very long time for the search function to go through them all, and other wards are empty.
I basically pulled off my retainer from the ward and used it for storage only, and selling what I want to sell in my bazaar near the repair NPC.
____________________________
#59 Oct 18 2010 at 3:13 AM Rating: Decent
**
580 posts
well if SE would let me pay them more money so i can have multiple retainers I would be happy. I try and only put up what the wards is suppose to have and name my retainer to reflect (my 1st was "crystalsxxshardsxxmore" lol) but with only 1 retainer and a "billion" items to sell in this game...its pretty much useless.

So much easier to sell drops to npc (which is bad -- loss of craft items for crafters -- influx of gil in economy)

When friday maint came, first thing i did was run to see about more retainers...when there was none, my heart sank.

So many little issues in this game. I started strong with this game - still like it - but my interest is feigning. (mind you my biggest issue isn't this at all - its duoing with a mar friend and me getting 0-50sp on the same mobs he gets 200-500 sp for and I work so much harder each fight then he does, w/o me we would fail the majority of the fights)

anyway a simple reply is turning into a rant, and i hate reading rants so I will stop there.
____________________________
_______

___________________________________________
Call your Mom, She misses you.
#60 Oct 18 2010 at 3:22 AM Rating: Decent
Sage
*
116 posts
From my experience of the updated system, I'm now finding it easier to sell stuff but still as painful as ever to buy... A bit contradicting perhaps, but thats how im finding it.

Edited, Oct 18th 2010 5:22am by M0RZA
#61 Oct 18 2010 at 6:31 AM Rating: Excellent
Avatar
*
238 posts
IamTuck the Eccentric wrote:
I don't understand how anything can be useless junk when everything seems to be a Mat for a craft. If I'm not mistaken isn't there a Tradeskills ward for "useless junk?" The wards are not perfect but its a step in the right direction. Its up to the community to make it work to the best of its current capability. SE promised a search function we just have to wait, patience is a virtue.


Ohhhh how this bugs me in game. The Tradecraft ward is for selling crafting tools ONLY. Yet it's full of useless crap >.> I've been searching for a new headknife for my leather worker with no luck so far. I have to search through about 20-30 retainers selling useless crap to find a single retainer selling tools (of any kind).

Tenzai wrote:
Borkachev wrote:

Once they implement a search feature, the retainer wards are basically going to be an auction house with a bunch of arbitrary obstacles.


This sums it up completely. All they are doing now is making a completely convoluted AH system, may as well just throw in the towel and make a real AH.

-Ten



Everyone talks about how the search feature will be like an AH ... I don't think so at all.

I am willing to bet that the search feature will, at most, just put an icon next to retainer names. I'm doubtful that it will tell who who is selling what, and for what price. You'll still have to search the retainers and compare prices.

It will be many times better than the current system, but it will still be nothing like an AH.

In regards to an AH. I kind of think I don't want them to put one in the game. It would help, a lot, for a lot of things in the game; armor, weapons, tools, stuff of that nature. However, for a lot of reagents and crafting materials ... it would suck. Don't kid yourself, SE would just put the exact same system they have in XI into the game. You would get two options. Selling 1x or selling a full stack of it.

Are you a botonist? Okay, you got 46 branches in your last logging trip. Are you really going to sell 46 branches one by one? Or will you wait until you have 99? Then who is going to buy 99 branches...? The same can be said for a lot of the stacks to 99 items. You would forever have a backlog of stuff waiting to get sold on the AH for these items =/

Maybe a mix, an AH for single items like weapons, armor, tools, then have searchable retainer **** for materials.
#62 Oct 18 2010 at 6:51 AM Rating: Decent
***
1,636 posts
Aurelius wrote:
KujaKoF wrote:
Whales wrote:
The One and Only Aurelius wrote:
And the benefit to the playerbase is that it will make it that much harder and more time consuming for any one player (or even group of players) to corner the market on much of anything by buying low and then selling at inflated prices.


Why is that?


I have to agree, RMT and or cartel market dominance is not the best way to defend the current system. Separating wards, no global search, finding retainers all add to transaction time. Assuming nobody at all works together, everyone is on equal footing. For a single person to dominate every ward is impossible. But RMT work as units. If the goal of the day is to buy all the iron ingots/nuggets and mark them up, they could easily divide up and cover that in a much more reasonable amount of time.


Until the first wave of bannings sending RMT scrambling to establish new accounts to start over. You only need one character to corner the market on a particular item with an auction house. You'd need a dozen or more to do it with retainer wards.


I agree, and thats even in my post. But accounts are cheap these days, 2 for $40. its a marginal issue for them.
____________________________


#63 Oct 18 2010 at 7:00 AM Rating: Excellent
*
107 posts
still looking forward to the search feature... someone will die if i have to have the item i'm searching for though.
____________________________

#64 Oct 18 2010 at 7:09 AM Rating: Decent
Scholar
19 posts
The other issue that people seem to be missing is that you save a whole WHOPPING 3% by selling in the correct ward. 2% tax vs 5% tax. Think I'll just load my retainer up with what items I can and stick him in a ward that corresponds to the highest selling item I have to make an extra 500 gil on a tax break.

And as far as others have said about searching retainers.... it will be nice but it's just a $hitty AH system when they should be smart and just throw in the towel and bring back XI's AH.

It still boggles me how you can have such great things in the game and then miss things like sorting your inventory... I mean wtf
#65 Oct 18 2010 at 7:20 AM Rating: Decent
**
782 posts
Quote:
Think I'll just load my retainer up with what items I can and stick him in a ward that corresponds to the highest selling item I have to make an extra 500 gil on a tax break.


That few percent add up. Case in point, 240k for Iron Haub = 12k in tax. If I put it in the correct location I make an extra ~6k

The tax break could be the difference between making a profit and breaking even. Where do you want to place YOUR retainer?

Edited, Oct 18th 2010 8:22am by windexy
#66 Oct 18 2010 at 7:21 AM Rating: Decent
*
116 posts
I think (sorry if this had been said already, dont have time to read whole thread) so long as people are going to be retarded and fill the wards full of items that they're not intended for, there should either be a limit on how many incorrect items you can place or a total ban of it.
#67 Oct 18 2010 at 7:23 AM Rating: Default
**
782 posts
Quote:
I think (sorry if this had been said already, dont have time to read whole thread) so long as people are going to be retarded and fill the wards full of items that they're not intended for, there should either be a limit on how many incorrect items you can place or a total ban of it.


You'll have to deal with this until we can have multiple retainers.
#68 Oct 18 2010 at 8:02 AM Rating: Excellent
***
1,636 posts
It'll get better with searches a bit, but right now as long as viability is more important than price, you'll see plenty of people in the 'wrong' ward.
____________________________


#69 Oct 18 2010 at 8:04 AM Rating: Excellent
***
1,021 posts
Aurelius wrote:
KujaKoF wrote:

I have to agree, RMT and or cartel market dominance is not the best way to defend the current system. Separating wards, no global search, finding retainers all add to transaction time. Assuming nobody at all works together, everyone is on equal footing. For a single person to dominate every ward is impossible. But RMT work as units. If the goal of the day is to buy all the iron ingots/nuggets and mark them up, they could easily divide up and cover that in a much more reasonable amount of time.


Until the first wave of bannings sending RMT scrambling to establish new accounts to start over. You only need one character to corner the market on a particular item with an auction house. You'd need a dozen or more to do it with retainer wards.


Don't forget that all those RMT accounts will be running sophisticated bots. I don't think it would take that many characters and they could all be run by 1 guy per shift. Also, it is not like is is much work to replace a market ward crawler with a new one. If the account costs become too high for them, they'll just redouble their efforts on hacking accounts.
#70 Oct 18 2010 at 9:05 AM Rating: Decent
*
178 posts
Imposing a higher tax for sellers AND imposing a tax for BUYERS would definitely help "sort" the wards system. The 3% tax reduction incentive is not enough to discourage sellers who sell random junk. Also buyers who are too lazy/frustrated to go through the right wards will be less inclined to buy misplaced goods if they are paying extra tax for the wrong items. I've run into so many retainers in the wrong wards selling something I wanted but I resisted buying the item to discourage the seller but how many other ppl would do the same without any sort of penalty?

Until the search function is implemented in the future there needs to be more incentive for players to place their retainers in the right wards. Was SE really hoping that ppl would use the wards like they intended? If so they are severely overestimating the general player bases' intelligence and patience.

And its amazing how many ffxi veterans are still quacking about a lack of the AH system. I guess they were oblivious in the previous game as RMT slowly corrupted and ruined the economy. The players bazaars in rolanberry fields did not start to appear until a couple years after the game was released as a feable attempt to by pass the RMT-broken AH. FFXIV learned from that and attempts to give us a long term fix (albeit missing some major features at the moment)and ppl are upset over this?

Edited, Oct 18th 2010 11:06am by lightacadi
#71 Oct 18 2010 at 9:35 AM Rating: Good
*****
11,576 posts
KujaKoF wrote:
Quote:

Until the first wave of bannings sending RMT scrambling to establish new accounts to start over. You only need one character to corner the market on a particular item with an auction house. You'd need a dozen or more to do it with retainer wards.


I agree, and thats even in my post. But accounts are cheap these days, 2 for $40. its a marginal issue for them.


Not exactly. There has to be a market for your product in order for you to make money and you have to make that money to recover the money you're spending on new copies of the game to reestablish yourself after every banning. That's why a lot of MMO devs store up information on RMT and then do one massive ban. If they just nickel and dime the situation with a ban here and a suspension there most RMT companies shrug it off. Ban a dozen or more RMT characters played from under the same roof in one day and it stings.

Gil, crafting mats, even shards to some extent...all available in abundance. Crazy bastards like me who will do nothing but craft in a 2-4 hour sitting temd to have to buy ours but Joe Average who does a bit of everything will be just fine for some time. The biggest thing that kept RMT running in FFXI through massive ban sweeps was the demand for their product. Nobody ever seemed to have enough gil. They could spend years accumulating it and in one purchase it would be gone. So SE tunes it from one side so that RMT don't really have a lot to offer because most players can get what they "need" legitimately and on the other side they make it a little more painful for RMT to get re-established after a blow from the STF. It's a two pronged attack that seems like a pretty effective meas of keeping a lid on RMT. They're always going to be present, but I seriously doubt they'll have the disruptive presence in XIV that they had in XI.

I just started making iron haubergeons. I need 2-3 more ranks to be able to crank them out in any significant numbers but right now I'm catering to the wealthy, "must have the best" players when I stick those clinking badboys in my bazaar. I'm cashing in now because in 3 months, they'll be not worth the trouble to make. I doubt I'll be able to recover shard cost on them in 3 months. And it is as it should be because obtaining items anyone with the appropriate mid-level crafting skill rank can make should never be a major obstacle to anyone. My prediction is that in 3-4 months time, you'll be able to do 8 rank 30 battlecraft leves and come up with enough gil to buy an iron haubergeon at common server prices.

There's a big picture at play and I have to say, most people on this forum just don't grasp it. Their view is entirely too narrow. They focus in on one aspect and ignore the rest. Zoom out a bit. If you try, you'll see it. And when you do, you'll realize that having to go pick up your item from a retainer instead of having it mailed to you is a pretty mild inconvenience. Or, to put it another way, it's still a **** of a lot more convenient than shout spamming looking for a seller or farming the materials and/or raising the skills to make it yourself.
#72 Oct 18 2010 at 9:38 AM Rating: Good
*****
11,576 posts
lightacadi wrote:
Imposing a higher tax for sellers AND imposing a tax for BUYERS would definitely help "sort" the wards system. The 3% tax reduction incentive is not enough to discourage sellers who sell random junk. Also buyers who are too lazy/frustrated to go through the right wards will be less inclined to buy misplaced goods if they are paying extra tax for the wrong items. I've run into so many retainers in the wrong wards selling something I wanted but I resisted buying the item to discourage the seller but how many other ppl would do the same without any sort of penalty?


It might help direct people to use the appropriate wards, but it would be the wrong way to go about doing it. There's a difference between an incentive and a penalty and right now, SE is not in a position to be appending additional penalties to anything in this game. Not one **** thing. If you've got someone standing there about to walk out the door, the last thing you do if you want them to stay is kick them in the nuts.
#73 Oct 18 2010 at 10:01 AM Rating: Good
**
291 posts
Aurelius wrote:
So SE tunes it from one side so that RMT don't really have a lot to offer because most players can get what they "need" legitimately and on the other side they make it a little more painful for RMT to get re-established after a blow from the STF. It's a two pronged attack that seems like a pretty effective meas of keeping a lid on RMT. They're always going to be present, but I seriously doubt they'll have the disruptive presence in XIV that they had in XI.

My prediction is that in 3-4 months time, you'll be able to do 8 rank 30 battlecraft leves and come up with enough gil to buy an iron haubergeon at common server prices.


Right on the money. I've found that when I get on and play for a couple hours and run L20 leves in a party for the evening for maybe 2 hours I've earned plenty of cash to go and buy a new toy or two in the market wards. If casual players can earn cash easily enough to keep things interesting for themselves they will be less likely to buy gil from a RMT. It's when prices get so inflated that a casual player can't ever buy anything that an RMT becomes a tempting option.
____________________________

#74 Oct 18 2010 at 10:16 AM Rating: Excellent
***
1,636 posts
Quote:

There's a big picture at play and I have to say, most people on this forum just don't grasp it. Their view is entirely too narrow. They focus in on one aspect and ignore the rest. Zoom out a bit. If you try, you'll see it. And when you do, you'll realize that having to go pick up your item from a retainer instead of having it mailed to you is a pretty mild inconvenience. Or, to put it another way, it's still a **** of a lot more convenient than shout spamming looking for a seller or farming the materials and/or raising the skills to make it yourself.


I agree its a small inconvenience, and I agree that whats being implemented is better than what shipped. However, I have not seen one good point stating that the inconvenience is worth it. market wards do not build community, you're still talking to NPCs. The only effect RMT more than real players. The only thing that its preventing, is a single person buying every last item X at point in time Y from the same location. However, the items they didnt buy, are going to be in one of 60 wards spread around 3 cities, and its only because their "team" hasn't teleported to that one yet. If they want to monopolize the economy of a single item, they still can and will be able to dominate a significant piece of it.


____________________________


#75 Oct 18 2010 at 10:27 AM Rating: Decent
*****
11,576 posts
KujaKoF wrote:
Quote:

There's a big picture at play and I have to say, most people on this forum just don't grasp it. Their view is entirely too narrow. They focus in on one aspect and ignore the rest. Zoom out a bit. If you try, you'll see it. And when you do, you'll realize that having to go pick up your item from a retainer instead of having it mailed to you is a pretty mild inconvenience. Or, to put it another way, it's still a **** of a lot more convenient than shout spamming looking for a seller or farming the materials and/or raising the skills to make it yourself.


I agree its a small inconvenience, and I agree that whats being implemented is better than what shipped. However, I have not seen one good point stating that the inconvenience is worth it. market wards do not build community, you're still talking to NPCs. The only effect RMT more than real players. The only thing that its preventing, is a single person buying every last item X at point in time Y from the same location. However, the items they didnt buy, are going to be in one of 60 wards spread around 3 cities, and its only because their "team" hasn't teleported to that one yet. If they want to monopolize the economy of a single item, they still can and will be able to dominate a significant piece of it.




That's the thing...I'm' not in favor of it either. I never have been. I thought it was a ******** idea put forward by a developer that is paranoid as all **** about RMT, just like its players are. And that's the tragedy, and that's why I'm not crying in my coffee over it. I know what SE is trying to do. I know the **** and abuse they took from their players in XI over anything and everything to the point where all things XI were a ***** and snivel fest.

And I know how ignorant XI players can be despite the fact they obviously haven't got a clue. But when you're the developer accused of not listening to your players in one game, and in that game all those players are ******** up forums screaming and crying about the auction house mess and you get a chance to start over with a new game, are you not going to take a very close look at the AH system and see if you can't change something to improve the situation? SE had two options...they could emulate what other MMO developers have done to address RMT or they could innovate and try to come up with something new. In the case of the AH, they opted to innovate.

Look at how hard it is to convince people even in this very thread that all the mechanics in XIV coming together will make the game significantly more inhospitable to RMT than it was in XI. It's **** near impossible. People are so uptight about it in this thread and elsewhere on these boards that they don't want to hear even the HINT that it won't be so bad because the thought of letting their guard down is just too **** terrifying. Yet you point out to them a potential solution to rampant RMT disruption of the game and they don't want to hear about it. Not even a little. Not one bit. They want what they want and they want it now. Children, the lot of them. No compromise, no middle ground, none of that.

I don't expect SE to change the market wards to implement the full convenience of an auction house so I don't make demanding it a priority. So instead I look at what they're doing with the wards and like a grown up, I don't compare what they're doing with what I most want. I compare what they're doing to what they've done in the past. What they launched the game with was not very good at all. What they did with the last patch was a substantial improvement. Adding the search function will be yet another improvement. A few more tweaks here and refinements there and we'll have the wards system operating as best as we could reasonably hope for and then I will evaluate that system based on its own merits, not based on my own childish insistence that it should be an AH and is not and therefor is bad.
#76 Oct 18 2010 at 10:46 AM Rating: Excellent
Guru
Avatar
**
937 posts
I'm going to be honest here. I haven't played FFXIV in over a week, and the big reason is the Market Wards. I think that it's a great idea, in theory, but it's been so difficult to find items that I need that I'm just sick of going through bazaars.
____________________________
Tijet - Rank 10 Windurst
PLD99 SCH99 DRG80 SMN81
Server: Lakshmi
#77 Oct 18 2010 at 12:33 PM Rating: Good
*
116 posts
Its not like the search is going to solve anything, they aren't worldwide they're only for that specific ward and from what we've already seen people don't put items in the correct wards. So even with the search were going to have to go into each different ward in each 3 cities to find what were after. Last night I spent 2 hours trying to find a level 12 blacksmith hammer cos I like crafting and want to get a foothold on the market, I eventually found it for a ridiculous 150k in the battle ward?? why when the armourer and goldsmith ones sell for 25K? Its a slight improvement but its definitely not a solution to the complete mess that SE have created, they need to make big changes soon or people will get fed up and leave.

#78 Oct 18 2010 at 12:43 PM Rating: Excellent
I am finding on my server, Cornelia, that pretty much every ward is working more or lessd as it should, except the battlecraft ward. Until we get more retainers, we are stuck putting our goods into the most applicable ward for the good we want to sell, and/or moving the retainer every couple of days, but the system will get better in time. It will never be as convenient as an auction house though, so people who want pure convenience will never be as satisfied with it as they would an auction house. However I think in a few months it will be working better than it is now, and be convenient enough that you only have to spend 10 minutes looking for most things. Unfortunately, I think the battlecraft ward is always going to be the way it is now, or whatever ward is first on the list.

I think they should group the wards together a bit more, and generalize things more. Maybe I'll post as such on the feedback forums. I'd rather have armor ward I and armor weard II than this mess of 3 or 4 different wards for different types of armor. That kind of forces us to either have multiple retainers, misuse the ward system as we are now, or focus on crafting only one or two different types of things.
____________________________
http://www.pbpmap.com/ - play by post rpgs at their best!


#79 Oct 18 2010 at 12:49 PM Rating: Good
Scholar
*
94 posts
Fail.

I get the idea behind the wards and trying to stop RMT and other players jacking up prices, but it still takes forever to find anything other than the random crap that people are still selling in the first two wards. I just spent 30 minutes looking for a Brass Elembic in the Tradescraft Ward and about 90% of the retainers have nothing related to that ward - it's still all random crap that drops of the low level mobs around Limsa.

I can't be bothered to say anything else. I'm too ****** off with wasting 30 minutes clicking on one retainer after another to find nothing.

Edited, Oct 18th 2010 2:50pm by Mince
____________________________
Salt and corrosion... the infamous old enemies of the crime fighter!
#80 Oct 18 2010 at 12:57 PM Rating: Excellent
***
2,010 posts
Quote:
Look at how hard it is to convince people even in this very thread that all the mechanics in XIV coming together will make the game significantly more inhospitable to RMT than it was in XI. It's **** near impossible. People are so uptight about it in this thread and elsewhere on these boards that they don't want to hear even the HINT that it won't be so bad because the thought of letting their guard down is just too **** terrifying.


I don't care how inhospitable the game is to RMT to be honest. Whatever makes the game inhospitable to them, makes it doubly inhospitable to us, because we are each an individual where they are small armies of drones. It hurts us more than it hurts them.

Yes, people complained about RMT in XI. RMT monopolized money drops, manipulated the AH prices, and destroyed fishing for a very long time. Some of the issues they fixed in intelligent ways, and some in ways that were maybe not so great.

The balance that they could never achieve was making RMT irrelevant but not hindering players. In almost every attempt, they also hindered players and the trade-off isn't worth it to a lot of us. I don't want to sacrifice my time and ultimately money just because SE and a handful of others are on a crusade against the evil RMT.

Games like WoW may have an RMT presence, but not to the point where legitimate players cannot enjoy their game because everything is designed around keeping out RMT.

It's too much. It's just too much. I don't want RMT ruling the game either, but in a way they still are even though it's not with direct manipulation of items and money.
#81 Oct 18 2010 at 1:00 PM Rating: Excellent
***
2,614 posts
Aurelius wrote:
Look at how hard it is to convince people even in this very thread that all the mechanics in XIV coming together will make the game significantly more inhospitable to RMT than it was in XI. It's **** near impossible. People are so uptight about it in this thread and elsewhere on these boards that they don't want to hear even the HINT that it won't be so bad because the thought of letting their guard down is just too **** terrifying. Yet you point out to them a potential solution to rampant RMT disruption of the game and they don't want to hear about it. Not even a little. Not one bit. They want what they want and they want it now. Children, the lot of them. No compromise, no middle ground, none of that.

It's often difficult to convince people of things that aren't true.

In my years of playing FFXI, I probably saw RMT blamed for literally every problem in the game. If prices went up, it was RMT. If prices went down, it was RMT. If an NM was camped by anyone but yourself, they were RMT. If popular leveling spots were too crowded, it was RMT. If someone MPKed you, he was RMT. If someone was seeking a party with bad equipment or an underleveled sub, he was RMT. If there was a bad design decision in the game, SE wouldn't change it because of some convoluted explanation involving RMT. If there was a bug, RMT were hiding its existence, if they didn't manage to create it somehow in the first place.

The problem is that 95% of it was a paranoid delusion. And it was a great delusion, because like communists, anyone could be an RMT. You just never knew.

The kind of market control you're talking about was nearly impossible in FFXI. A player or cartel of players could buy up current stock of an item, but could very rarely control the supply, which is essential to that strategy. How do you monopolize a piece of crafted equipment when anyone on the server can level up and make it? Or a BCNM drop that anyone can go after?

The only time they had a hope of doing it was with items with very restricted supply, like certain NM drops. Even then, I'm doubtful that it ever happened for more than a very short period of time. Real players were better equipped, better organized, more skilled, and more willing to waste their time than RMT ever were. Any NM whose drop price was rising would be swamped by people wanting a piece of the action. Those places were so crowded that it wouldn't be worth paying even the meager salaries of a few RMT to camp them.

RMT and players have all the same motivations and strategies. Players use all the same bots and exploits that RMT do. They go after all the same income sources. And they never pay more than they think an item is worth.

Quote:
A few more tweaks here and refinements there and we'll have the wards system operating as best as we could reasonably hope for and then I will evaluate that system based on its own merits, not based on my own childish insistence that it should be an AH and is not and therefor is bad.

What about our arguments do you find childish? Where in our clear and specific list of reasons why an auction house would be superior to any variation on the market wards do we say that "just because it's not an AH, it's bad"?
#82 Oct 18 2010 at 1:00 PM Rating: Good
Scholar
***
2,652 posts
Not working so well.

Probably because most of the retainers in the battleward filled with junk only speak a version of Chinese so the word "Battleward" looks like jibberish to them just like it did before they were renamed.

top of list sell fast! NUMBA ONE!

Should just make the top ward labeled: comeheretobebanned. then purge it every week or so.

#83 Oct 18 2010 at 1:19 PM Rating: Excellent
Scholar
*
119 posts
I just shell shards and crystals and name my retainer as such so its easy for me to make gil doing so. If I actually wanted to sell drops from grinding it would be a cluster fudge as my retainer would have ten items for sale that belong in ten different wards leading to the trolling comments here.

Instead I just vendor every drop in my bag, sell my shards, and spend gil like its going out of style I have so much.

I might be richer if I sold my drops via retainer but the time it takes to baby sit a retainer which has 80 items to sale but only ten slots at a time and constantly moving it to the most appropriate ward for what it is selling at that moment just makes me lulz.

I say vendor everything once a day and get back to actually playing the game....at least until playing Market Ward Tycoon starts rewarding SP and XP.

Edited, Oct 18th 2010 3:21pm by Twolow24
#84namasy, Posted: Oct 18 2010 at 1:40 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) never fail it made mils of gils
#85 Oct 18 2010 at 1:43 PM Rating: Excellent
Scholar
*
119 posts


Are you so eager to get your epeen stroked is why you link this pic in every thread I open today?
#86 Oct 18 2010 at 1:49 PM Rating: Good
Scholar
***
2,652 posts


Look like my bank account, in real life.

Poor as dirt in game, however.

Only enough time to make money in one of the two.

/shrug What'cha gonna do, am I right?
#87 Oct 18 2010 at 1:55 PM Rating: Decent
*****
11,576 posts
Torrence wrote:
Quote:
Look at how hard it is to convince people even in this very thread that all the mechanics in XIV coming together will make the game significantly more inhospitable to RMT than it was in XI. It's **** near impossible. People are so uptight about it in this thread and elsewhere on these boards that they don't want to hear even the HINT that it won't be so bad because the thought of letting their guard down is just too **** terrifying.


I don't care how inhospitable the game is to RMT to be honest. Whatever makes the game inhospitable to them, makes it doubly inhospitable to us, because we are each an individual where they are small armies of drones. It hurts us more than it hurts them.

Yes, people complained about RMT in XI. RMT monopolized money drops, manipulated the AH prices, and destroyed fishing for a very long time. Some of the issues they fixed in intelligent ways, and some in ways that were maybe not so great.

The balance that they could never achieve was making RMT irrelevant but not hindering players. In almost every attempt, they also hindered players and the trade-off isn't worth it to a lot of us. I don't want to sacrifice my time and ultimately money just because SE and a handful of others are on a crusade against the evil RMT.

Games like WoW may have an RMT presence, but not to the point where legitimate players cannot enjoy their game because everything is designed around keeping out RMT.

It's too much. It's just too much. I don't want RMT ruling the game either, but in a way they still are even though it's not with direct manipulation of items and money.


You're right. And that's my whole point. The XI community...the same community that screams at SE for not listening...was heard. SE heard them. They heard them loud and clear. And when given an opportunity to start over and address RMT, they took it. So when every half-wit XI numpty is blaming anything and everyone on RMT as Brokachev so sagaciously pointed out, guess how that influences the developer? They start looking at addressing RMT as their #1 priority and it's not. It never has been. All SE needed to do to address RMT was develop a game that didn't suck the soul out of you after a year of hard grinding for trivial rewards. All SE had to do was what they did the the drop rates in XIV: make it so that you can go out and farm for an hour and have something noteworthy to show for it.

And having heard the community over the course of many years of whining and crying, they're not about to back down on it now. And the harder you push for YOUR way, the more you become just like the XI people who influenced the current state of affairs. Give peace a chance. They're working on it.
#88 Oct 18 2010 at 1:58 PM Rating: Excellent
Edited by bsphil
******
21,739 posts
KujaKoF wrote:
To compare with a global AH, one player could buy up everything in the span of a few seconds/minutes, I honestly don't recall how long it took to buy 20+ items in the AH. global AH's remove RMT's team/unit advantage. Now I know they did dominate certain items, but that was due to pooled resources, gil pools. A wealthy LS could have in theory done the same thing by pooling together gil.
That was moreso due to the fact that the item history is limited to a certain number of entries. All you have to do is replace 15 (or however many it is) entries with overpriced sales, and suddenly there is no recorded history of the proper price of the item. This was in a way subverted by FFXIAH.com, but it just can't compete with how much the actual AH gets used by players. You could still manipulate prices, just not as easily. A complete price history of the item would get around this problem fairly well, since a blip on the graph would be very easily recognized as price manipulation. I agree with the main point, take FFXI's problem to the extreme end, no history whatsoever in transactions (FFXIV's ward system), and suddenly manipulating prices becomes incredibly easy.

EVE does a marvelous job with its market. If you're looking for a good model for a MMO marketplace/auction house/etc. system, that would be the place to go.



Edited, Oct 18th 2010 2:58pm by bsphil
____________________________
His Excellency Aethien wrote:
Almalieque wrote:
If no one debated with me, then I wouldn't post here anymore.
Take the hint guys, please take the hint.
gbaji wrote:
I'm not getting my news from anywhere Joph.
#89 Oct 18 2010 at 2:03 PM Rating: Excellent
46 posts
Just wanted to add my two cents...

So I logged in today for the first time since the update, and I gotta say...it's better, but still is a giant time sink looking for armor/gear, etc.

Didn't even realize it, but I wandered around the wards for almost forty minutes, and still didnt find what I was looking for. Although it's an improvement, it used to take 1.5 hours to not find what I was looking for.

I don't really have a whole lot of free time to play, but I gotta say I shouldn't spend that much time looking for things. So...I'm gonna jump off the "sounds like a good idea" bandwagon over to the "Yes, I would like an AH too" wagon.
____________________________

#90 Oct 18 2010 at 2:13 PM Rating: Excellent
Edited by bsphil
******
21,739 posts
dayspringrdm wrote:
Didn't even realize it, but I wandered around the wards for almost forty minutes, and still didnt find what I was looking for. Although it's an improvement, it used to take 1.5 hours to not find what I was looking for.

I don't really have a whole lot of free time to play, but I gotta say I shouldn't spend that much time looking for things. So...I'm gonna jump off the "sounds like a good idea" bandwagon over to the "Yes, I would like an AH too" wagon.
What's so crazy about it, is that SE has stated that they want FFXIV to be more casual friendly than FFXI, yet make incredibly casual unfriendly decisions such as adding grind to buying and selling items on the market. Spending the hour a day I have to play looking for a few items in the ward and not finding them is not what I'd call casual.
____________________________
His Excellency Aethien wrote:
Almalieque wrote:
If no one debated with me, then I wouldn't post here anymore.
Take the hint guys, please take the hint.
gbaji wrote:
I'm not getting my news from anywhere Joph.
#91 Oct 18 2010 at 3:57 PM Rating: Good
33 posts
Im getting tired of hearing aurelius sing SE's praises.
Along with all the other half-hearted defenders of this ridiculous situation.

The market ward idea is too absurd to be blamed squarely on the threat of RMT.
This is just the designers trying to be innovative and failing. It happens all the time.

The AH has been implemented and refined over many years in dozens of MMO's.
It would be very, very hard to create a better system.
There is some serious competition coming up from triple A titles such as GW2, Star Wars online and D3.
I guess what im trying to say is, when there are so many choices of games to play and increasingly less time to play them SE cant stick to their stubborn-parent "we know whats right" tactics. Its time to admit maybe they were wrong.

What im really getting tired of is people pretending this system is ok, or could work.
Yes it could work, and it will work.


But get this through your thick, delusional heads.
ITS NOT GOING TO BE BETTER.
IF ITS NOT BETTER, THEN WHATS THE POINT.

Thats all it comes down to you dumb-f*cks.

You people dont even listen to yourselves "oh i get what theyre trying to do, it could work, its a good idea but.." NO, just ******* NO! what the f*ck is wrong with you people. Stop lying to yourselves, its not more EFFICIENT.
How can a NEW game (FFXIV) be less efficient than an OLD game (FFXI)?

Doing a search for the item you want > finding the NPC name who has the item u want > walking around to find that NPC > buying your item.
That is not better than an auction house. That is convoluted and time-consuming.

Now we can all agree that this new system is going to be more time-consuming than a regular AH (with the same basic results).
There is no ******* argument there right, no one would argue with that statement.
The market wards do the same thing as an action house. thats the jist of it right?
RIGHT!?

ok, so if we can all agree that the market wards do the same thing as an auction house, but just take more work and time..
Then we can all agree that that is less productive and less efficient.

Wow, phew, all settled right? done? good, Now we can all agree that the market wards are a bad idea.


#92 Oct 18 2010 at 4:47 PM Rating: Good
****
9,526 posts
Vsayra wrote:
Its not like the search is going to solve anything, they aren't worldwide they're only for that specific ward and from what we've already seen people don't put items in the correct wards. So even with the search were going to have to go into each different ward in each 3 cities to find what were after. Last night I spent 2 hours trying to find a level 12 blacksmith hammer cos I like crafting and want to get a foothold on the market, I eventually found it for a ridiculous 150k in the battle ward?? why when the armourer and goldsmith ones sell for 25K? Its a slight improvement but its definitely not a solution to the complete mess that SE have created, they need to make big changes soon or people will get fed up and leave.



Blacksmith hammer uses canvas... canvas has been coming down in price but the cost of the canvas raised the price of the hammer vs. similarly ranked hammers from other disciplines.
____________________________
lolgaxe wrote:
When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#93 Oct 18 2010 at 5:23 PM Rating: Good
6 posts
There are four reasons (at least) why Ward's in their current setup are only a mild improvement over the past (beyond horrid) system. Your searches in any given ward are likely to find items not specific to that Ward because:

1. In some cases, the retainer may have had an appropriate item(s) which have already sold. For instance, I tend to list one or two misc. items that I'm trying to move along with my focused sales. Sometimes the misc. items move, sometimes they don't.

2. In some cases, the misc. items are related. The sort system still needs work. It doesn't make sense to have one ward for all DoW weapons and five (or so) wards to buy armor (hats, gloves, boots, chest, legs are all separate wards). In a number of cases, the Battleward off-items are metal and leather armor while the off items in the tradeskill ward are hempen or cotton crafter gear. In other words, logical alternatives where the merchant was willing to pay the higher tax. To some extent this will improve with more retainers, to some extent it would improve if the ward sorts were a bit more logical, and to some extent this will just happen.

3. In some cases, people are just dumb. The system, as designed, is predicated on the notion that the player will take the time to think through what they should sell and where they should sell it. Unfortunately, some players seem to think that weevil-elytrons are perfectly suited for melee weapons and drop them in the Battle Ward - cluttering up the place. There is an adage I like to go back to at times like these: "No one has ever gone broke underestimating human intelligence." People are basically stupid, if you build hoping for their competence, most will disappoint you. The problem with the current system is largely that it depends on people behaving logically. To that end, this system will always be a messy one.

4. There is a learning curve to the current system. As people succeed in buying/selling in the right ward, they will find themselves looking to buy\sell in other right wards. This will reward people playing within the system and gradually influence cooperation with the policy.

In other words: (1) it's better than before (but c'mon could it have been worse than before?), (2) it will get better over time, (3) it will get better with patching and tweaking, but... (4) this will always be a messy and inefficient system.

We should just have an AH and be done with it - that isn't likely to happen. The new system is at least playable - but it's downright hard to understand the extent to which SE fails to understand players.

#94 Oct 18 2010 at 5:30 PM Rating: Good
*
116 posts
I can understand why they are doing this to try and keep RMTs effects less extreme but given the choice I would rather have an AH with inflated/manipulated prices than these disgusting market wards. Id rather deal with inflations effect then waste my limited gaming time running around like a d**k head.
#95 Oct 18 2010 at 5:45 PM Rating: Good
Scholar
*
94 posts
Vsayra wrote:
I can understand why they are doing this to try and keep RMTs effects less extreme but given the choice I would rather have an AH with inflated/manipulated prices than these disgusting market wards. Id rather deal with inflations effect then waste my limited gaming time running around like a d**k head.


Unfortunately, I agree.
____________________________
Salt and corrosion... the infamous old enemies of the crime fighter!
#96 Oct 18 2010 at 5:55 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
*
113 posts
Though I think the changes were a good step in the right direction it is already starting to fall apart on my server.

Sadly this time around it isn't SE ******** it up but players completely disregarding what the wards are for.

The first few days of release it seemed to be working pretty well, now everyone is packing into the first two wards again and I am lucky if 1 out of 20 retainers actually is carry ONE items that is correct for the ward.


/sigh

If not SE making the game harder to play, it's the people who can't follow simple directions. Sad times
#97 Oct 18 2010 at 6:45 PM Rating: Excellent
Scholar
*
196 posts
Honestly wtf.. A search for market wards? Isn't that just an AH with extra filler for you to waste time in? Oh wait just kidding it's just part of the game.. just like the billions (I exaggerate for effect) confirmation menus I have to go through to sell crap to the npc's as well as other mundane daily tasks.. GENIUS $quareENIX, PURE GENIUS!!
____________________________
WoW: we want to give players a more fun time with less grinding and generic quests
GW2: we want the player to feel like they are leveling while doing something fun
Final Fantasy XIV: we want less fun and more grinding
#98 Oct 18 2010 at 6:46 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
**
257 posts
On Istory if you're looking for anything in one of the first ~4 wards you're wasting your time, but the pants, hats, and gloves wards are pretty good. Most of the time there's fewer than 10 people in them selling stuff though. 9/10 are selling correct items at least. I haven't really had the need to look in the other wards aside from the first 4 so I can't comment on the materials ones. I would assume they're similar to the ones on the last page

I'm busy and don't have the time to read the whole thread so it's probably been mentioned before, but they should just restrict what you can sell in each ward. If your retainer is in the Battlecraft ward, restrict it to weapons that can be listed in bazaars.
____________________________

#99 Oct 18 2010 at 6:47 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
***
2,742 posts
I am on Istory and I sell my fishes in the Grocer Ward...

I am glad I can rent a counter now >.>b
____________________________
FFXIV: Karamethien Seraphus (Blog)

FFXI: Karamethien
Still a Seraph Samurai Wanna Be
Fishing AF - Complete, SAM AF - Complete, RNG Af - Complete, RDM AF - 1/6
#100 Oct 18 2010 at 6:53 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
**
685 posts
What would help out very much is if people were to work with the system. I tried looking through the Tradescraft ward in Ul'Dah hoping to figure out how to prices some hammers I had made. The first 30 retainers I went through had absolutely no crafting tools, and maybe 5-10 of them had crystals. When you zone into the ward, it lists what that ward is there for. I'm hoping that it was just timing and that the retainers with nothing but items not meant for that ward had already sold such items.

I think the biggest gripes against using anything but an AH for the economy is that it takes up too much time, which such players would rather be out fighting things, or the possibility that someone will pay more than market average for an item. Without an AH, you don't have an in-game market average/price history for any item. So if you don't want to spend the time to find other retainers that may have what you want or spend the time finding a crafter capable of making the item for you for an agreed-upon price (check your local crafting linkshell!), then you might get ripped off. Unfortunately for the rushed consumer, price-matching guarantees don't work in XIV!

____________________________

Crafter Consortium Craftsman/Gatherers Linkshell
#101 Oct 18 2010 at 7:07 PM Rating: Excellent
Scholar
**
630 posts
bsphil wrote:
dayspringrdm wrote:
Didn't even realize it, but I wandered around the wards for almost forty minutes, and still didnt find what I was looking for. Although it's an improvement, it used to take 1.5 hours to not find what I was looking for.

I don't really have a whole lot of free time to play, but I gotta say I shouldn't spend that much time looking for things. So...I'm gonna jump off the "sounds like a good idea" bandwagon over to the "Yes, I would like an AH too" wagon.
What's so crazy about it, is that SE has stated that they want FFXIV to be more casual friendly than FFXI, yet make incredibly casual unfriendly decisions such as adding grind to buying and selling items on the market. Spending the hour a day I have to play looking for a few items in the ward and not finding them is not what I'd call casual.


This sums up most of my feelings about XIV. The fact of the matter is that there are glaring examples of this in just about every endeavor of the game and it really hinders playability.
This forum is read only
This Forum is Read Only!
Recent Visitors: 21 All times are in CST
Anonymous Guests (21)