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Outside looking in: Is FFXIV dead before it really startedFollow

#102 Oct 20 2010 at 3:56 PM Rating: Decent
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JayRams wrote:
Few people love it, some people stand it and most people hate it.


EFT. To respond to the original poster though, SE has invested so much money in this game its going to survive one way or another even if they have to run empty or near empty servers until the ps3 version hits, for no other reason that 1,000,000-3,000,000 copies will probably sell between Japan, US and Europe within launch day. Now, many of those players might think the game blows and possibly rightfully so. Especially those who have played FFXI or any other mmorpg and see the giant leep backward for the Square-Enix kind.

Regardless, even if they don't sub for a single month, they get 50-60 million dollars in retail sales from 1-3 million copies probably if they sell some collectors editions at $100.00 and some regular copies at $60.00 or so. Instantly recovers their development cost/investment and they could shutdown the game 2-3 months after the PS3 version comes out. Blame it on the community not subbing up for FF13, boo hoo, take the money and run. In reality, that's what a lot of people feel was done with FF13 because they felt it wasn't quite up the quality the series is known for and was pretty short longevity wise. I know I passed FF13 in about 6 hours which for a video game I bought the collectors edition of for $80.00 I felt a bit ...ripped off. Just b/c by comparison I could buy a game like Diablo 3 and know I'd get a fun experience, some storyline and probably 100+ hours of gameplay.
#103 Oct 20 2010 at 4:05 PM Rating: Decent
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burtonsnow wrote:
IXICascadeTaiga wrote:
its actually still there.... its under that party search system
Menu > Party...... shows at the top World: XXXX nearby XXXX


Not that it isn't enough players, but lets say on average a server has 7,000 players total (A reasonable guess considering there seems to be on average 1.5k players online, so 4 times that amount is feasible). A total of 13 servers right now, means that in total there are only 91,000 total players subscribed. In FFXI's prime there was approximately 3,500 on during peak hours and a total of about 450,000 subscribers.

From the outside looking in these numbers should be reversed seeing as how SE had a larger target market and this was their second MMO. If the PS3 release doesn't change these numbers drastically then yes this game is dead, not in the sense that game won't receive updates, but in the sense that the company is no longer allocating resources to its continued improvement (noticed I only included improvement, as most likely development will continue), which would be a shame to see as improvements in key areas could drastically change the playability for the better.


http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10&mid=125678725939708614&howmany=50

*edited for clarification*

Edited, Oct 19th 2010 7:40pm by burtonsnow


At the very least they will have to cancel the plan to for new mocapped and voiced cutscenes every three months and go back to using stock animations and text.

Motion capture and voice acting are expensive and adding content that uses it on a three month schedule will not be feasible on a game with 500k subscribers or less.


Edited, Oct 20th 2010 7:08pm by Lobivopis
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Final Fantasy XI 12-14-11 Update wrote:
Adjust the resolution of menus.
The main screen resolution for "FINAL FANTASY XI" is dependent on the "Overlay Graphics Resolution" setting.
If the Overlay Graphics Resolution is set higher than the Menu Resolution, menus will be automatically resized.


I thought of it first:

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10&mid=130073657654872218#20
#104 Oct 20 2010 at 4:13 PM Rating: Decent
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Devildawgs wrote:
Thayos wrote:
Quote:
Every single reviewer says the game is garbage.

Who do you think is right, every single reviewer, or the fanbois that will defend the game until they shut the servers down?


Problem is, I've read several reviews that I think are garbage. I get the feeling a lot of these reviewers weren't big fans of FFXI, either. And I have to wonder how many of these reviewers are being influenced by the mob mentality of criticizing this game, because, let's face it... if there's one thing people on the Internet love, it's drama!

That said, this game definitely has problems, but for many people these problems aren't so bad that the game is unplayable. Not only are lots of people having fun with this game, but they also have confidence that these fixable issues will indeed be fixed by the end of the year. Square Enix has every reason in the world to fix these issues, and zero reasons not to.

So when I look at FFXIV, I see a highly innovative (and stunningly beautiful) game that is backed by a giant company with vision and funding, with the promise of getting better and better.

For me, personally, why on earth would I leave?

Now, to address this post's title... how is the perception from the outside looking in? Well, because of all the negative reviews, I'd say many people will be staying away from this game for awhile. However, I don't foresee any impact on subscriptions for the PS3 release. This game will be firing on all cylinders long before then... if it's not, I'll be incredibly surprised. It's just that I seriously doubt that SE wants to flush millions of dollars down the toilet, so I'm assuming they'll fix the UI and the market wards, etc.

Anyway, in summary... this game isn't going anywhere. The people who really want to leave and play WoW would have left and played WoW anyway. The people who really want to play a Final Fantasy title online will be back once the game has been out for awhile and the wave of negativity has cooled off... but most of us will probably just stick around and continue to develop our characters.



I saw the same exact argument for Vanguard, a game I upgraded my computer for I might add.


/sigh....


And Vanguard eventually became an amazing game. But it still never recovered from the initial bad press.
____________________________
Final Fantasy XI 12-14-11 Update wrote:
Adjust the resolution of menus.
The main screen resolution for "FINAL FANTASY XI" is dependent on the "Overlay Graphics Resolution" setting.
If the Overlay Graphics Resolution is set higher than the Menu Resolution, menus will be automatically resized.


I thought of it first:

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10&mid=130073657654872218#20
#105 Oct 20 2010 at 4:15 PM Rating: Good
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Wloire wrote:
Let me give you the tldr; version:

If you played early FFXI and liked it you will like FFXIV.

If you played later FFXI and liked it you will like most of this game, you need to be able to stomach a sizable grind to enjoy this game.



Nope, I play FFXI and I still hated FFXIV.
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Final Fantasy XI 12-14-11 Update wrote:
Adjust the resolution of menus.
The main screen resolution for "FINAL FANTASY XI" is dependent on the "Overlay Graphics Resolution" setting.
If the Overlay Graphics Resolution is set higher than the Menu Resolution, menus will be automatically resized.


I thought of it first:

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10&mid=130073657654872218#20
#106 Oct 20 2010 at 4:17 PM Rating: Good
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Hyanmen wrote:
FFXI was worse when it came out.

None of us would have played the game in the condition it was released in for the PS2.

But really, are you going to argue about things you have no freaking idea of? FFXI was complete fail of an MMO for the longest time, but lo and behold, it got fixed in time for us. And XIV will be even better as time goes on.


FFXI has an out whereas FFXIV does not. Your argument holds no weight because FFXI was the first MMO from SE. Mistakes were bound to be made and this latest release should have shown what SE has learned over the last 8 years of FFXI's service. Unfortunately it hasn't and even worse, it has taken a step backward in terms of performance. 8 years ago a broken FFXI was nearly as good as the alternatives. Today, not the case. WoW and many other MMOs might not be your thing, but at least they're in working order. The same cannot be said for FFXIV.


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Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#107 Oct 20 2010 at 4:19 PM Rating: Good
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Thayos wrote:
Just from paying attention to opinions about FFXI over the years, it's pretty clear that the Final Fantasy model of MMO does not appeal to the stereotypical western gamer.



How is FFXI "eastern"? It's just oldschool Everquest with chocobos and moogles. It's quite literally just EQ with a Final Fantasy coat of paint and some streamlining.

I'm not saying it's a bad thing, I liked oldschool EQ and the main reason I started playing FFXI was because it allowed me to have that experience after they started dumbing down EQ.

But to say that FFXI is "eastern", well I just don't see it. The game is slavishly built on the EQ model of MMO gaming.

Edited, Oct 20th 2010 7:22pm by Lobivopis
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Final Fantasy XI 12-14-11 Update wrote:
Adjust the resolution of menus.
The main screen resolution for "FINAL FANTASY XI" is dependent on the "Overlay Graphics Resolution" setting.
If the Overlay Graphics Resolution is set higher than the Menu Resolution, menus will be automatically resized.


I thought of it first:

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10&mid=130073657654872218#20
#108 Oct 20 2010 at 4:24 PM Rating: Decent
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KujaKoF wrote:
I'm curious, people call 14 a niche game. What niche do you think it fits in? All I can think of is overly complex and grindy like the mid 90s games, or heavy crafting.


Well, it definitely falls in a niche where Crafting is given a much more significant priority.

Unfortunately previous MMOs that have done this aren't exactly popular...

Examples:
Horizons
Vanguard

#109 Oct 20 2010 at 4:26 PM Rating: Decent
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EFT. To respond to the original poster though, SE has invested so much money in this game its going to survive one way or another even if they have to run empty or near empty servers until the ps3 version hits, for no other reason that 1,000,000-3,000,000 copies will probably sell between Japan, US and Europe within launch day. Now, many of those players might think the game blows and possibly rightfully so. Especially those who have played FFXI or any other mmorpg and see the giant leep backward for the Square-Enix kind.

Regardless, even if they don't sub for a single month, they get 50-60 million dollars in retail sales from 1-3 million copies probably if they sell some collectors editions at $100.00 and some regular copies at $60.00 or so. Instantly recovers their development cost/investment and they could shutdown the game 2-3 months after the PS3 version comes out. Blame it on the community not subbing up for FF13, boo hoo, take the money and run. In reality, that's what a lot of people feel was done with FF13 because they felt it wasn't quite up the quality the series is known for and was pretty short longevity wise. I know I passed FF13 in about 6 hours which for a video game I bought the collectors edition of for $80.00 I felt a bit ...ripped off. Just b/c by comparison I could buy a game like Diablo 3 and know I'd get a fun experience, some storyline and probably 100+ hours of gameplay.


Wow, I love your number figures. You clearly have no idea what you are talking about. Considering 25million PS3's have been sold worldwide according to nexgenwars.com, you assume nearly 10% of PS3 owners will purchase a copy of the MMO ON LAUNCH DAY. Please take into consideration MMORPG's do not really do well on consoles. Also, consider a lot of the people who purchased up until now and probly until then will own PS3's. Then, please consider the terrible reviews this game is getting. This being the case, I don't think 10% of PS3 owners will purchase this game. Also, your post also says to me that you think that the retail price of game is the amount that SE makes from the game.

Your thinking is removed from fact and reality.
#110 Oct 21 2010 at 1:46 PM Rating: Decent
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SE will receive most of the revenue from the copies sold. Gamestop/Amazon/Walmart etc have very low margins on video games. I believe I read that Gamestop earns $5 on a new Xbox game and the rest goes to the developer/production house. This is why there is such a big incentive for Gamestop to push used games - 100% gross margin vs 10%. Also why there is a big incentive for developers to produce games that don't have resale value or have a recurring revenue stream or ideally both.
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#111 Oct 21 2010 at 2:13 PM Rating: Excellent
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People forget the developement cost behind the game.

For 5 years there has been a team making this game collecting a salary, advertisement costs(what little advertisement there was) promotional cost of sending teams to events like E3 to push the game. Cost of the servers, bandwidth, research costs. Actual production cost, shipping costs. The "payola" to review sites to give them 4/10 instead of 1/10 :P *jab*

How much of the 300-500k estimated copies sold to date is profit? I would say most likely nothing. I'm definetly not an expert but I wouldn't be suprised if they never see a profit from copies sold. And would have to bank on subscriptions.

None of us know how much was spent developing this game. Alot of numbers are thrown about on the forums, but they're rubbish. I did however read that a Wii game needs to sell around 1 million copies to begin turning profit. And we know that those games are alot less complex than FFXIV. They usually only take 1-3 years to make. And they use pre-built engines.

All that said, I wouldn't be suprised if they said this game would need to sell over 3 million copies to turn a profit, and at less than 400k sold so far, and one more big boost in sales coming for the PS3, they had better get a move on.
#112 Oct 21 2010 at 2:30 PM Rating: Excellent
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Hyanmen wrote:

FFXI was worse when it came out.



I highly disagree with this statement.

FFXI had its problems, but it was playable and engaging.

This game is boring, every little this you do is an absolute chore, the crafting system lacks any sort of logical progression and the world, although graphically stunning, is uninterestingly monotonous. Add in a highly non-user friendly UI and a bunch of terrible program decisions by SE and anyone with half a brain and an object outlook can see that this game is a huge embarrassing failure.
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#113 Oct 21 2010 at 2:37 PM Rating: Excellent
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300-400k sold, is that world wide sales? US sales doesn't look like it broke 150k.
#114 Oct 21 2010 at 2:42 PM Rating: Decent
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doubleax wrote:
300-400k sold, is that world wide sales? US sales doesn't look like it broke 150k.


Ya worldwide minus Japan.
#115 Oct 21 2010 at 2:57 PM Rating: Good
Mods, please remove this post. Not sure why it double posted.

Edited, Oct 21st 2010 4:59pm by KarlHungis
#116 Oct 21 2010 at 2:57 PM Rating: Good
JamesX wrote:
Enscheff wrote:
Every single reviewer says the game is garbage.

Who do you think is right, every single reviewer, or the fanbois that will defend the game until they shut the servers down?

Have you read any movies review lately? Then went and watch the movies? Who do you think is right?



Obviously it depends on who's doing the review, but I find metacritics such as "Rotten Tomatoes" to be a far better gauge of movie quality than a poll of random idiots. I don't know how to say this delicately so I'll just come out and say it directly: the average person has no taste and no sophistication to their thinking, and I'd waste an awful lot of my time and money if I trusted their opinions on any thing.

Professional critics don't always have the same particular tastes that I do, don't always see things the same way that I do, and in some cases, aren't much better than the man on the street, but generally speaking they're a **** of a lot better than the alternative. Which is probably why there's still a paying market for critics.

In the specific case of FFXIV, most of the reviews I've seen match up incredibly well with the game as it was during the end of beta. I can't speak for the current state of the game, assuming it's actually changed that much in the one month its been out, but I can say that if I had decided to make my purchasing decision based strictly on reviews, I'd have made the same decision that I made based on personal experience. Which is to say, in my case at least, reviewers got it 100% right.

If instead I had listened to the popular opinion of the game on message boards and trusted in the secret magical patch to make it right at launch, I'd be pretty upset with my investment.

So no, I don't think the logic is horrible at all. Conscientious reviewers get it right far more often than they get it wrong, IMO, even though they obviously can't match up perfectly to the tastes and expectations of every single person who reads the review.
#117 Oct 21 2010 at 11:32 PM Rating: Excellent
Quote:
I don't mean to sound rude, but this statement right here just sounds like pure justification for the fact the game is poorly designed in its current state.


Actually, when I was chatting with my friend about my predictions for FFXIV reviews, it was well before launch day and we had absolutely no way of knowing what the state of the game would be at its debut. So no, I was not justifying anything... there was nothing to justify.

With the exception of the market ward system (which I believe will be successful following the November and December updates), I actually like the way this game is designed -- a lot. I just think this is a different style of game than mainstream gamers were expecting. It's less about grinding and instant gratification, and more about taking it slow and smelling the roses during your journey. I cringe every time someone says FFXIV is more of a grindfest than FFXI. That may be the case now, but in all the years pre-ToAU, FFXI was a downright punishing game. Fun, but punishing. The "grinding" in FFXIV is about as difficult as buttering toast when compared to FFXI.

Here's another crazy statement I'm gonna throw out there...Final Fantasy XIV's biggest problem is that it's lacking in content.

How can I say this? Well, the answer is simple (sort of). There are definitely flaws in the game's UI, but even those flaws aren't really an issue once you get used to them. For example, menus that once confused me are now a non-issue, because I know how to use them. I've circumvented much of the annoying lag by making gear macros for all of my different jobs. I've also adjusted my playstyle slightly to account for some of the lag. Yes, it would be better if these issues didn't exist at all, but I've learned to lived with them. I'm over it.

That said, there's no way to adapt to a lack of content. I'm really excited for more quests and the release of new NMs. However, SE has said it will fix all the design flaws before focusing more on new content. That makes me a sad panda... but I'm having a great time so far, so I intend on sticking around.

I'm curious to see what the game's population is like at PS3 launch, but honestly, I wonder how much that will really matter with this game. A significantly smaller population would have spelled trouble for FFXI, which was much more dependent on parties to succeed. This game lets you do a lot more by yourself, and developers have indicated smaller parties will be able to go far in this game. Makes me believe this game will be more than capably of surviving for years, even with a smaller-than-expected population.

Time will tell!

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#118 Oct 21 2010 at 11:48 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:

FFXI was worse when it came out.
(...)

I highly disagree with this statement.

FFXI had its problems, but it was playable and engaging.


There's a good list of bugs and errors FFXI had at it's *real* launch in Japan
somewhere on the internet. (I joined in a little later).

Search it, and eventually you will find it.
Read it, and eventually you will roll on the floor laughing your *** off.
Think about it, and eventually you'll stop laughing, because what you are playing now is even worse.

Nonetheless, the above poster's opinion seems to be correct to me; XI
had a certain "magic" I just don't find in XIV - yet.

Edit: Here's the list. Easier to rediscover than I thought.
http://zeusls.llima.net/download/ffxiupdatehistory.html

Please note that customers received an extra free month of free play as well back then, and there was no AH at first.
Please note also that it took them less than a month to add in NMs and the AH.
So don't argue that such things "naturally" take a lot of time.

But the best part is:
Quote:
Square anounces that the level cap at the current state is 50. Although they have it programmed until level 100, to maintain balance between players they are now ajusted till 50. But at the current state there were nothing much you could do but exping, and between users there were some unpopularity. Square responded that "You level too fast..." (lol...) or "you leveled in a way that we did not expected" (exploits huh...) But then again, users believed "What else could we do???"


So don't tell me SE has the basic ability to learn from mistakes.


Edited, Oct 22nd 2010 1:57am by Rinsui
#119 Oct 21 2010 at 11:52 PM Rating: Good
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Thayos wrote:
This game lets you do a lot more by yourself, and developers have indicated smaller parties will be able to go far in this game.


Yeah the make up of the party is a lot more flexible than FFXI. In FFXI for most situations if you didn't have 6/6 and pretty near ideal conditions most parties were pretty icky. It may be different with abbysea or whatever but when I quit in January there just wasn't a lot of options for people without a lot of friends or without the time to stand around waiting for a party invite.
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lolgaxe wrote:
When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#120 Oct 21 2010 at 11:59 PM Rating: Good
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"A History of FFXI" wrote:
- Rangers were unusable jobs. The arrows were only stackable up to 12, and it costed fortunes to create or buy. This has been slightly ajusted but it still were weak, and there were only like 10 rangers in the entire server. (impressive huh...)


Smiley: eek

"A History of FFXI" wrote:
Cure line of spell has been revised and added extreme hate. Mages became very nervous about this.


Edited, Oct 21st 2010 11:01pm by Olorinus
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lolgaxe wrote:
When it comes to sitting around not doing anything for long periods of time, only being active for short windows, and marginal changes and sidegrades I'd say FFXI players were the perfect choice for politicians.


#121 Oct 22 2010 at 12:13 AM Rating: Decent
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Let me add a quote from the US version of Secret of mana:
"Time flows like a river, and history repeats."

...

Btw, now that I think of it, I think that list deserves a post on it's own.
So people can compare both games.

Edited, Oct 22nd 2010 2:14am by Rinsui
#122 Oct 22 2010 at 12:22 AM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
With the exception of the market ward system (which I believe will be successful following the November and December updates), I actually like the way this game is designed -- a lot. I just think this is a different style of game than mainstream gamers were expecting. It's less about grinding and instant gratification, and more about taking it slow and smelling the roses during your journey. I cringe every time someone says FFXIV is more of a grindfest than FFXI. That may be the case now, but in all the years pre-ToAU, FFXI was a downright punishing game. Fun, but punishing. The "grinding" in FFXIV is about as difficult as buttering toast when compared to FFXI.


I have to disagree. I think a game that's "about smelling the roses during your journey" is one that makes you want to do that, Not one that does it as a side effect of no content. I do admire the people who look at this game and do look at the bright side of being able to enjoy the game slowly for their patience. But I don't have it, I look at this game as having nothing to do but level up the class of your choice, and thinking it takes a bit too long to do that. This game is all about grinding, weather you do it slowly 8 leves every 36 hours, or in one session.

This game is more of a grind that FFXI is now. Thats whats important, FFXI removed the grind because people didn't like it anymore. I hate when people refer to "instant gratification" in MMOs because its just hyperbole. People don't want things instantly, but they do want them at a reasonable pace.

The MMO playing population has probably increased about 12x since the days of EQ, DAOC, and FFXI, and those players learned to play MMOs where getting to level cap was only the begining, so its not unreasonable that they expect to be able to do that. SE sold FFXIV to the "casual/wow" crowd (as so many 'vets' like to call them) as a casual solo friendly game, and basically bait and switched them into buying an incomplete grindfest. If they wanted people to level slower, they should have gone ahead and put in some of that content many people expect at endgame along the way.
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#123 Oct 22 2010 at 12:26 AM Rating: Excellent
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Excellent analysis, rate up.
"Casual" FFXIV feels more like a grinder than FFXI ever did by the time I was playing.
And I started playing during ye olde days, long before US launch.
#124 Oct 22 2010 at 12:37 AM Rating: Excellent
Quote:
I have to disagree. I think a game that's "about smelling the roses during your journey" is one that makes you want to do that, Not one that does it as a side effect of no content.


Final Fantasy XIV does make me want to do that. If there was more content, there would just be more roses to stop and smell.

As someone who played Final Fantasy XI for six years, I can say without a doubt that FFXI has this game beat in terms of being a grindfest. The problem with FFXIV is that people are confusing "there's not much to do besides craft and rank up" with "all there is to do is grind levels."

I guess it all depends on your interpretation of grinding. If I play for an hour one night, three hours the next night, then an hour the next night -- and if I spend that time crafting/battling on multiple jobs -- then I don't really consider that grinding.

To me, grinding is what everyone would do at the start of FFXI, which was gear up one job, head out to the Dunes (or Maze of Shakrami), wait two hours for a party, then party for as long as you possibly could so that you wouldn't have to burn another two hours looking for another party.

Regardless of your personal definition, Final Fantasy XIV is superior to FFXI in that all of your playtime can be productive. There's no standing around for hours waiting for a pt in order to get viable exp points (if you started playing FFXI after FoV was implemented, then you wouldn't understand what I'm talking about). And when you start feeling bored, you can just log out.

For that reason alone, I don't see how anyone can honestly say that FFXIV requires more grinding than FFXI.

Edited, Oct 21st 2010 11:39pm by Thayos
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#125 Oct 22 2010 at 12:52 AM Rating: Default
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Hopefully side: SE is showing a great interest in fixing the issues the player base has, well the ones they can fix. I don't have connection of server issues except for like twice. Going off this by the time ps3 hits it should be full of life. Almost everyone agrees it is almost there it just needs a push to reach the mountain top.


Pessimist side: Repair is horrible, on top of that your crap breaks way to fast. I am not a big crafter anyways so I ma not the best to ask about this but all I hear is " dude you have to be a crafter". Makeing gil is soooo easy , leves grow repetitive but give good rewards. Anima is great the first week then it is just something you wish you had enough of as you autorun into things while trying to talk to your LS.


My Opinions; It is a GOOD game not great not bad just good, it could be alooot better. I hate spending all of my limited time shopping. Yet as I said in the hopeful side, SE is supposedly making all the fixes that people want, only thing it can not fix is the social aspect, which is non existent, well they could fix it by adding city channels or something.

But no i would not say it is dead, just having trouble hitting its stride, it is so annoying to see a great game confined in a good shell, especially when the fixes are so simple.

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This is all just a fanboy civil war. Some are hurt that SE gave them such a crap game, the others are hurt that anyone would call it crap.
#126 Oct 22 2010 at 12:57 AM Rating: Excellent
Quote:
I hate spending all of my limited time shopping.


You could do what I do, and just not use the market wards. Seriously, I never use them! I picked out three crafts (armorer, blacksmith and carpenter), and I NPC everything that isn't an ingredient for blacksmithing or carpentry. So far I've had plenty of inventory space, with enough materials to craft... I'm sure I'll need my retainers eventually, but I figure minimizing time in the market wards is probably a good thing until the November or December update.
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#127 Oct 22 2010 at 12:59 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
...Final Fantasy XIV is superior to FFXI in that all of your playtime can be productive. There's no standing around for hours waiting for a pt...


Indeed. Partly because there are not too many parties, and partly because you have to run for half an hour to reach one.
#128 Oct 22 2010 at 1:01 AM Rating: Default
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I went to the Wards once after the last patch and once before .. before i just left after i actually looked ... still takes far longer than it should .... even in ff 11 I just ran tothe ah, ignored the bazaars and bought what i needed , or sold what i needed
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KitsurubamiSouzahara wrote:
This is all just a fanboy civil war. Some are hurt that SE gave them such a crap game, the others are hurt that anyone would call it crap.
#129 Oct 22 2010 at 1:09 AM Rating: Excellent
Quote:
Indeed. Partly because there are not too many parties, and partly because you have to run for half an hour to reach one.


I have yet to run out of anima, and I'm very thankful that travel at the start of FFXIV is so much easier than it was in FFXI.
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#130 Oct 22 2010 at 1:10 AM Rating: Excellent
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For that reason alone, I don't see how anyone can honestly say that FFXIV requires more grinding than FFXI.


Missed that one, sorry.
I guess it all boils down to how you define "grind". If you use the least comprehensive definition, I have
to admit you are correct; there is less PT grinding in 14 than in 11. However, I tend to use the word "grind"
for everything unpleasant that robs a casual player a lot of his time. And then, running from A to B for
half an hour, repairs and shopping-horror-trips are well included.

You correctly point out there are solutions and "workarounds" to that problem. Don't use the retainer ward,
level several crafts, don't party. Do you think that's the solution many people are happy with? Like: our
auction house replacement is crap -> recommendation: don't use it. You have little playtime and hate running
back to town every second hour -> level several crafts. Want to get EXP -> do the same leves over an over?

Quote:
I have yet to run out of anima, and I'm very thankful that travel at the start of FFXIV is so much easier than it was in FFXI.


Hm. Yes, I also never ran out of anima yet, because I know how to coordinate my jumps efficiently. Nonetheless,
once you reach the LV30~ Leve layer, the "good" ones will be scattered among three towns/9 different camps.
Even if restrict yourself to one of the major cities ("casual"), you are very, very lucky in Limsa (where all
LV 20 and 30 camps are next to a simgle road that isn't too long to run), much less lucky in Uldah, and completely
f*cked over in Gridania. In 11, I knew that, once I reach a camp, I'd be able to party for at least 1-2 hours.
In 14 it's shifting places once a camp's leves are done, or once your weapon breaks. And that means running, running,
running.



Edited, Oct 22nd 2010 3:33am by Rinsui
#131 Oct 22 2010 at 1:16 AM Rating: Excellent
My avoidance of the market ward is an exception to my rule. I level several jobs because it's fun, and I'm raising several crafts because it's fun. I also hang out and chat with ls mates because it's fun. I do party in this game, too... mostly with linkshell members, and occasionally with random people at crystals who want to do leves. I also have fun soloing.

It would be nice if people who wanted to grind on one job (or toward one goal) could do so and still have fun with it... that's not my style of play though, which is probably why I'm liking this game so much.
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#132 Oct 22 2010 at 1:18 AM Rating: Decent
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156 posts
Oh yes Crafting is grafting that lvls your physical level... and i hate almost being forced to craft, it really is needed i just refuse to give in
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This is all just a fanboy civil war. Some are hurt that SE gave them such a crap game, the others are hurt that anyone would call it crap.
#133 Oct 22 2010 at 1:26 AM Rating: Good
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Ok. With that playstyle in mind, I understand you are content. The problem is, my
imaginary "typical" casual (the one this game allegedly targeted also) doesn't want
to be a LV12 X, LV10 Y, LV5 Z, LV12 A, LV 22B and LV13 C Jack-of-all-trades for the
next half a year because the game system requires ("suggests") him to do so.
Joe Average generally wants to excell at a single something, and for most Joes
out there that single something is not repairing their own gear with a needle.

It's good that you like "a little of everything". Makes you less Joe, and more Jack.
But I fear we'll loose a lot of Joes like this; and just Jacks don't really make an
interesting game.

Edited, Oct 22nd 2010 3:31am by Rinsui
#134 Oct 22 2010 at 1:38 AM Rating: Default
I don't think FFXIV is dead before it started as I don't really think it has started yet.

We are all still playing on free trial (which quite rightly was extended by Square Enix) and there has not been ANY media advertizement regarding this game yet.

I think it is quite obvious that Square Enix realizes that the game is not quite there yet and is working on getting things sorted before they start a massive advertizement campaign.

I swear there will be billboards with FFXIV shining on the side soon enough and we will see a flood of new people coming to the game.

Why you think we are all playing this? So we can spot the real errors and problems before all these new people to MMORPG come. I believe most of the current players are from other games like FFXIV or WOW....

Wake up people!
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#135 Oct 22 2010 at 1:46 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
before all these new people to MMORPG come

You mean those virgin MMORPG players who just got connected to the internet and never read any of the reviews?
#136 Oct 22 2010 at 1:51 AM Rating: Default
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156 posts
I guess I should clarify my position becuase I just realized I have been complaining alot this evening.

This is a good game with minor yet annoying flaws. If I knew now before i bought this game i would buy it anyways. It is worth playing and overall I enjoy sorry for being so negative this evening but everyone has to rant some days
____________________________
KitsurubamiSouzahara wrote:
This is all just a fanboy civil war. Some are hurt that SE gave them such a crap game, the others are hurt that anyone would call it crap.
#137 Oct 22 2010 at 2:10 AM Rating: Good
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465 posts
Thayos wrote:
I'm curious to see what the game's population is like at PS3 launch, but honestly, I wonder how much that will really matter with this game. A significantly smaller population would have spelled trouble for FFXI, which was much more dependent on parties to succeed. This game lets you do a lot more by yourself, and developers have indicated smaller parties will be able to go far in this game. Makes me believe this game will be more than capably of surviving for years, even with a smaller-than-expected population.

Time will tell!

Okay, but if the game is earning far less than expected, I have to imagine that will have a negative impact on the content and changes it'll receive in the years to come.

And I'm not sold that significantly less (than XI, or whatever the expectation was) will be just fine in this game - for instance, isn't having a full party of 15 the best way to gain SP?

Edited, Oct 22nd 2010 4:12am by Coyohma
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#138 Oct 22 2010 at 2:25 AM Rating: Decent
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The fact that they EXTENDED 30 DAYS FREE playtime shows how bad the situation is currently.

My subscription remains cancelled. I do not enjoy the game, only masochists do. I want to get my money's worth by ranting as much as I can on this worthless piece of crap.

Edited, Oct 22nd 2010 4:26am by pec
#139 Oct 22 2010 at 7:10 AM Rating: Good
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That's a lot of ranting left to do then... if you bought the $80 collectors edition.

Seriously: I understand complaint-only posters fully.
SE fully deserves what they get now for releasing a
beautiful shell that happens to sparkle in the sunlight
but is almost completely empty. Hope customers' backlash
teaches them a lesson. And don't tell me they have no
clue of what's going on in the major forums.

I may be a bit of a ********* compulsory type myself,
because I keep on playing. Then again, most of it may
be hope.
#140 Oct 22 2010 at 8:03 AM Rating: Excellent
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1,021 posts
Thayos wrote:

As someone who played Final Fantasy XI for six years, I can say without a doubt that FFXI has this game beat in terms of being a grindfest. The problem with FFXIV is that people are confusing "there's not much to do besides craft and rank up" with "all there is to do is grind levels."

I guess it all depends on your interpretation of grinding. If I play for an hour one night, three hours the next night, then an hour the next night -- and if I spend that time crafting/battling on multiple jobs -- then I don't really consider that grinding.

To me, grinding is what everyone would do at the start of FFXI, which was gear up one job, head out to the Dunes (or Maze of Shakrami), wait two hours for a party, then party for as long as you possibly could so that you wouldn't have to burn another two hours looking for another party.

Regardless of your personal definition, Final Fantasy XIV is superior to FFXI in that all of your playtime can be productive. There's no standing around for hours waiting for a pt in order to get viable exp points (if you started playing FFXI after FoV was implemented, then you wouldn't understand what I'm talking about). And when you start feeling bored, you can just log out.

For that reason alone, I don't see how anyone can honestly say that FFXIV requires more grinding than FFXI.


I disagree, FFXIV feels like much more of a grindfest to me. In FFXIV, the fastest way I've found to get SP is to just kill lots of blue, green, and sometimes yellows very quickly solo. They aren't challenging at all and it is very boring. I've tried killing harder stuff and I get less SP over time and I've tried a party post SP "fix" and got way less SP per time. In FFXI, I would lose a lot of time to looking for a party, but when I started on FFXI, it was more like 30-60 minutes for me to get a party since the population was still high and lots of people were looking for parties. To me a grind is doing something repetitive I don't want to do simply to get xp/sp. I really enjoyed xp parties in FFXI. The way I gain SP in FFXIV is incredibly boring (it was also very boring in a party plus the SP was terrible).

In FFXI:
- grind 0.5-1.5 hours LFP (at low levels when game was still young)
- xp for several hours getting 150-250xp per kill, maybe 4000xp per hour. At level 15, need 3400xp to level or about 17 kills or about 1 hour. XP'ing was fun

In FFXIV:
- walk to camp 0.0-0.5 hours
- sp grind for several hours getting ~100sp per kill, not sure on per hour. At level 15, need 12000sp to level or about 120 kills (maybe 2-3 hours?). Kills are definitely much faster, but you also spend a fair amount of time running to next kill unless you find the perfect and unoccupied camp. Getting SP is boring.

I consider FFXIV more of a grindfest because the fights all feel the same and aren't fun (no challenge, no chance of success, or tough fight for little sp). It takes a lot more fights to rank up so it feels like you are repeating the same things more times (because you are). It isn't as big of difference on time because the fights are faster, but it still seems much slower to me at the same level. Looking at eorzeapedia, rank 48 will require 96,000 sp just for that level. By comparison, it requires 7,500xp on FFXI (was that adjusted down at some point). I know I'd have a lot easier and faster time getting 7,500xp than 96,000sp.
#141 Oct 22 2010 at 9:08 AM Rating: Good
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1,636 posts
Quote:

I guess it all depends on your interpretation of grinding. If I play for an hour one night, three hours the next night, then an hour the next night -- and if I spend that time crafting/battling on multiple jobs -- then I don't really consider that grinding.


my simplest definition of grinding is killing mobs for no reason other than XP. Or alternately, standing in one area for any period of time and killing whatever spawns in that area. It doesnt really matter how long, if I'm spending minutes or hours killing dodos because I want their XP its grinding. Currently, If your leves are on cooldown, and you would like to progress a combat class, you will be grinding by my definition. There is enjoyable (short term solo, good group) grinding and there is mind numbing grinding (40th dodo kill, looking for level appropriate mobs for your duo to kill).

Quote:
Regardless of your personal definition, Final Fantasy XIV is superior to FFXI in that all of your playtime can be productive. There's no standing around for hours waiting for a pt in order to get viable exp points (if you started playing FFXI after FoV was implemented, then you wouldn't understand what I'm talking about). And when you start feeling bored, you can just log out.


I agree with this, but its still not really a good situation. Yes SE had said they wanted to be able to solo, and currently yes they technically can. Whereas in 11 often EP mobs would kill a random DPS class trying to solo it, in 14 it seems that a character should always be able to kill a blue mob. I've heard reports otherwise, but i've been able to kill every blue/green mob I've tried to with little difficulty. My point is that soloing seems too ineffecient to be a realistic leveling path. From the XP trends I've seen, and the TNL chart to 50, currently it looks like soloing will get you there at about 10-20% of the speed of a group player. I came to FFXIV with the idea that grouping would be required, or beneficial at some point, however being that SE said that soloing would be possible, I would also like think they would follow through on that and make it viable.
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#142 Oct 22 2010 at 10:09 AM Rating: Good
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6,470 posts
Thayos wrote:
Quote:
I have to disagree. I think a game that's "about smelling the roses during your journey" is one that makes you want to do that, Not one that does it as a side effect of no content.


Final Fantasy XIV does make me want to do that. If there was more content, there would just be more roses to stop and smell.

As someone who played Final Fantasy XI for six years, I can say without a doubt that FFXI has this game beat in terms of being a grindfest. The problem with FFXIV is that people are confusing "there's not much to do besides craft and rank up" with "all there is to do is grind levels."

I guess it all depends on your interpretation of grinding. If I play for an hour one night, three hours the next night, then an hour the next night -- and if I spend that time crafting/battling on multiple jobs -- then I don't really consider that grinding.

To me, grinding is what everyone would do at the start of FFXI, which was gear up one job, head out to the Dunes (or Maze of Shakrami), wait two hours for a party, then party for as long as you possibly could so that you wouldn't have to burn another two hours looking for another party.

Regardless of your personal definition, Final Fantasy XIV is superior to FFXI in that all of your playtime can be productive. There's no standing around for hours waiting for a pt in order to get viable exp points (if you started playing FFXI after FoV was implemented, then you wouldn't understand what I'm talking about). And when you start feeling bored, you can just log out.

For that reason alone, I don't see how anyone can honestly say that FFXIV requires more grinding than FFXI.

Edited, Oct 21st 2010 11:39pm by Thayos


I dunno Thayos. Sounds to me like you're using very selective definitions (I'd personally argue that grinding is performing any unduly repetitive action) and poor justifications ("I learned how to deal with it, so it's not a problem") to argue your case.

I don't think we should have to "deal with" the game's gross oversights. We shouldn't have to write macros for everything in an attempt to avoid the game's user interface. That's kind of absurd.

I don't think FFXI is the only game worth comparing to in these regards, either. FFXI is a very old game. And considering that it's the same company that made FFXIV, one would reasonably expect to see more signs of progression and development from one game to the next. Instead, FFXIV actually shows regression: standard-issue content that should be in any game at release, that was in FFXI, is curiously absent in FFXIV (inventory sort? mail?). How are these not damning faults?

I like the game's potential, I really do. I'm playing almost solely because I'm banking on it. But it is not a good game in its current state. It doesn't come close to the industry standard for MMORPG's, and that's as far as universal aspects go, not niche ones. FFXIV gets a lot of basic stuff very, very wrong. I'd say that such flaws prevent us from enjoying the "fun" content of FFXIV, but it turns out there's just not a lot of content there anyway right now (I think you've said as much). Instead, things like the laborious UI and interactions are preventing us from getting the full effect of how little there is to do in FFXIV.

I'm glad that you're enjoying the game, but the reviews its getting are 100% accurate. I think you're the one with bias here: rose-colored glasses.

Edited, Oct 22nd 2010 12:11pm by Eske

Edited, Oct 22nd 2010 12:17pm by Eske
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#143 Oct 22 2010 at 10:50 AM Rating: Good
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Yeah, I've never understood the logic behind the "I've adapted, why haven't you? GTFO!" mentality. When a clear alternative exists (a GOOD UI) that would satisfy both players, then isn't that preferable to a situation where 1 of 2 gamers is 'happy' with it?

Seriously, sort? Mail? Has anybody come up with a semblance of a logical or rational reason why basic things present in their first MMO are just not here?
#144 Oct 22 2010 at 12:18 PM Rating: Decent
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600 posts
Before going on my schpiel below, I have to say that I play on Fabul server every day. I've run into three friends from a Japanese LS I was in (when I lived in Japan), and it was wonderful to catch up with them. Every weekend, I look forward to partying with them and discussing what's going on in our lives. In fact, I made my first Hempen Cowl and gave it to them, and plan on making another tonight!

I do find it odd, considering it's a game...but we've chatted through text messges on our phones in Japan and sent pictures before...I still have to say that I got giddy as a kid going on his first date when I found out theyw ere on the same server as I.

For server population issues, I think that most of you are missing a VERY IMPORTANT POINT: We're not all centralized around the Rank 1 and Rank 10 camps anymore. People have moved on to other camps to rank their professions up, etc. More people are out gathering. The eleventy-billion people that chose Limsa Lominsa as their starting city have gone off to hang in Ul'dah (where the music is cool) or Gridania (where the music can put you to sleep!).

It's just not one giant pixel-body mosh fest anymore ;p Nothings wrong, and besides, counting subscribers at this point isn't a very intelligent maneuver anyway, considering that nobody is paying for it...

I do love the game. It has elements that I was hoping for, as well as a few that were unexpected. I trust that they will be working out the changes and updates to get the game into a very stable release for people to be playing. We're past the "this should have been done before release", but I'm sure there were other factors in the premature deployment...as I know from a personal standpoint how it sucks having that happen.

All in all, there is more good in the game than bad, even from the start. But as the Poll says, "Haters gunna hate"...

For those of us who like the game, we'll keep the faith. For those that don't...there is NO REASON to be cramming your ideas down other people's throats. If you don't like, leave (and don't let the door whack you in your rump on the way out). It's like someone who loves cheese pizza ranting on someone who doesn't, because cheese pizza is frakkin' awesome...nobody cares what YOU like...we only care what WE like.

This has been a much-too-long public service announceent...



Quote:
It's going to turn out just like FFXI did with maybe 1-2 mil users at its peak, then after a couple years end up with 500-800k loyal subs to keep it hanging on for awhile. But it will never join the top 5 list on most popular MMO's.


Where are you basing your information on? FFXI had much more than 1-2 million users logged in during it's peak...

And to categorize certain games against others isn't fair to anyone. For instance, WoW vs FFXI comparisons are retarded, unless you speaking about common items between them. For instance, FFXI was not made for PvP. And neither was WoW. However, that became the game's main focus shortly before Burning Crusade came out.

And as far as the "top five" list...

GameOgre:
1) World of Warcraft
2) Lord of the Rings Online
3) Aion
4) Eve Online
5) Final Fantasy XI
-= For posterity... =-
6) City of Heroes/City of Villains
7) CHampions Online
8) Dark Age of Camelot
9) Warhammer Online
10) Age of Conan

www.the-top-tens.com:
1) World of Warcraft
2) Entropia Universe (I've actually never heard of this one)
3) Dream of Mirror Online
4) Runescape
5) Final Fantasy XI
-= For posterity... =-
6) Maple Story
7) Guild Wars
8) Lineage 2
9) Silk Road Online
10) EVE Online

And looking at MMORPG:
1) Atlantica
2) EVE Onlnie
3) Guild Wars
4) LotRO
5) FFXI
6) DAoC
7) EQ2
8) WarHammer
9) Vanguard
10) Ryzom

Granted, I don't put much stock in "top lists" bedcause it's all dependent upon the style of game (not just "fantasy" or "sci-fi", but rather gameplay: solo or party play? PvE or PvP?). And, as we see with FFXI, it has a lot to do with the culture that the game was originally aimed at.

For those preaching about WoW (still): http://www.example.com/. WoW was a very good game, but most people have left over the years due to playing it just being too "mundane". Get new stuf...then grind (honor, glad points, etc).
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#145 Oct 22 2010 at 12:48 PM Rating: Excellent
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Hyanmen wrote:
Quote:
Nothign to do with that, it's to do with the fact that FFXIV is rushed crappy game with god awful ideas that needed to be kept away from sale for another 6 months at least. Jp players got FFXI at start and it was praised pretty well and had a high playerbase for that kind of game, thats not the case this time.


FFXI was worse when it came out.

None of us would have played the game in the condition it was released in for the PS2.

But really, are you going to argue about things you have no freaking idea of? FFXI was complete fail of an MMO for the longest time, but lo and behold, it got fixed in time for us. And XIV will be even better as time goes on.


FFXI was a good game when it came out. It was a little short on the content at the time but it had the basics and those basics were fun. The crafting system, while difficult to gather recipes for, was intuitive in itself. The battle system wasn't tedious though it was a bit on the slow side, but if anything that allowed you to talk to your friends more easily during battle. Yeah, there were a ton of things SE needed to fix, and believe me there was a lot, but there was nothing wrong with the core of the game.

That's all about the *actual* release of FFXI. By the time you PS2 users got it, FFXI was a truly robust game.

I've talked FFXIV to death, so I'm not going to reiterate all my points but the point is that the design of this game is flawed and it will suffer for it.

Olorinus the Vile wrote:
"A History of FFXI" wrote:
- Rangers were unusable jobs. The arrows were only stackable up to 12, and it costed fortunes to create or buy. This has been slightly ajusted but it still were weak, and there were only like 10 rangers in the entire server. (impressive huh...)


Smiley: eek

"A History of FFXI" wrote:
Cure line of spell has been revised and added extreme hate. Mages became very nervous about this.


Yeah, those were some wild times. People also used to get their "end game" exp from Davoi back when the cap was 50 which was obviously before there were merits. Good times.

Thayos wrote:
With the exception of the market ward system (which I believe will be successful following the November and December updates), I actually like the way this game is designed -- a lot. I just think this is a different style of game than mainstream gamers were expecting. It's less about grinding and instant gratification, and more about taking it slow and smelling the roses during your journey. I cringe every time someone says FFXIV is more of a grindfest than FFXI. That may be the case now, but in all the years pre-ToAU, FFXI was a downright punishing game. Fun, but punishing. The "grinding" in FFXIV is about as difficult as buttering toast when compared to FFXI.


That's adorable, especially the Market system part.
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#146 Oct 22 2010 at 1:31 PM Rating: Good
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135 posts
Samuraiken wrote:
Before going on my schpiel below, I have to say that I play on Fabul server every day. I've run into three friends from a Japanese LS I was in (when I lived in Japan), and it was wonderful to catch up with them. Every weekend, I look forward to partying with them and discussing what's going on in our lives. In fact, I made my first Hempen Cowl and gave it to them, and plan on making another tonight!

I do find it odd, considering it's a game...but we've chatted through text messages on our phones in Japan and sent pictures before...I still have to say that I got giddy as a kid going on his first date when I found out theyw ere on the same server as I.

For server population issues, I think that most of you are missing a VERY IMPORTANT POINT: We're not all centralized around the Rank 1 and Rank 10 camps anymore. People have moved on to other camps to rank their professions up, etc. More people are out gathering. The eleventy-billion people that chose Limsa Lominsa as their starting city have gone off to hang in Ul'dah (where the music is cool) or Gridania (where the music can put you to sleep!).

It's just not one giant pixel-body mosh fest anymore ;p Nothings wrong, and besides, counting subscribers at this point isn't a very intelligent maneuver anyway, considering that nobody is paying for it...

I do love the game. It has elements that I was hoping for, as well as a few that were unexpected. I trust that they will be working out the changes and updates to get the game into a very stable release for people to be playing. We're past the "this should have been done before release", but I'm sure there were other factors in the premature deployment...as I know from a personal standpoint how it sucks having that happen.

All in all, there is more good in the game than bad, even from the start. But as the Poll says, "Haters gunna hate"...

For those of us who like the game, we'll keep the faith. For those that don't...there is NO REASON to be cramming your ideas down other people's throats. If you don't like, leave (and don't let the door whack you in your rump on the way out). It's like someone who loves cheese pizza ranting on someone who doesn't, because cheese pizza is frakkin' awesome...nobody cares what YOU like...we only care what WE like.

This has been a much-too-long public service announceent...



Quote:
It's going to turn out just like FFXI did with maybe 1-2 mil users at its peak, then after a couple years end up with 500-800k loyal subs to keep it hanging on for awhile. But it will never join the top 5 list on most popular MMO's.


Where are you basing your information on? FFXI had much more than 1-2 million users logged in during it's peak...

And to categorize certain games against others isn't fair to anyone. For instance, WoW vs FFXI comparisons are retarded, unless you speaking about common items between them. For instance, FFXI was not made for PvP. And neither was WoW. However, that became the game's main focus shortly before Burning Crusade came out.

And as far as the "top five" list...

GameOgre:
1) World of Warcraft
2) Lord of the Rings Online
3) Aion
4) Eve Online
5) Final Fantasy XI
-= For posterity... =-
6) City of Heroes/City of Villains
7) CHampions Online
8) Dark Age of Camelot
9) Warhammer Online
10) Age of Conan

www.the-top-tens.com:
1) World of Warcraft
2) Entropia Universe (I've actually never heard of this one)
3) Dream of Mirror Online
4) Runescape
5) Final Fantasy XI
-= For posterity... =-
6) Maple Story
7) Guild Wars
8) Lineage 2
9) Silk Road Online
10) EVE Online

And looking at MMORPG:
1) Atlantica
2) EVE Onlnie
3) Guild Wars
4) LotRO
5) FFXI
6) DAoC
7) EQ2
8) WarHammer
9) Vanguard
10) Ryzom

Granted, I don't put much stock in "top lists" bedcause it's all dependent upon the style of game (not just "fantasy" or "sci-fi", but rather gameplay: solo or party play? PvE or PvP?). And, as we see with FFXI, it has a lot to do with the culture that the game was originally aimed at.

For those preaching about WoW (still): http://www.example.com/. WoW was a very good game, but most people have left over the years due to playing it just being too "mundane". Get new stuf...then grind (honor, glad points, etc).


We'd be basing that on SE's announcement that FFXI server population finally hit 2 million at one point. I don't remember the exact timeframe, but not accounting for mules, it hit a little over 2 mil in one month and SE had a big announcement on PlayOnline when I logged in one day, which means if you do a search you can probably find it. So no, there definitely wasn't "much more" at any point in FFXI's history (unless post Kupo d'etat right when I left that it happened, which I seriously doubt. We can hardly call NOW as FFXI's peak time.)

Your best reference would be here:

http://www.mmogchart.com/charts/

Except the data only goes to 2008. So not accounting for WoW, FFXI is actually in a perfectly fine position but let's take off the rose-colored glasses in this thread, ok?

P.S. Entropia does and doesn't count. Look up the info on it to see why; it's a rather insane game that takes the idea of hardcore dedication to a different level since there are actual real stakes involved of your cold hard earned cash.
#147 Oct 22 2010 at 1:47 PM Rating: Decent
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37 posts
Ravashack wrote:
Well, it definitely falls in a niche where Crafting is given a much more significant priority.


Eh, lack of an easy way to find gear (which they're working on) and the fact the game is still new makes crafting more of a priority. I'd wager that PS3 players won't craft nearly as much. Once the game has settled some, ppl who prefer not to craft will just sell off crystals/shards/mats etc and buy up what they want or have it crafted (this trend is growing). I think NA coming into XI a year after release has really skewed a lot of people's perception of this launch. When we got XI, there wasn't a reason to craft much since we could just sell off drops we got while we grinded and buy gear from the AH.
#148 Oct 22 2010 at 2:01 PM Rating: Decent
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451 posts
basstheory wrote:
Ravashack wrote:
Well, it definitely falls in a niche where Crafting is given a much more significant priority.


Eh, lack of an easy way to find gear (which they're working on) and the fact the game is still new makes crafting more of a priority. I'd wager that PS3 players won't craft nearly as much. Once the game has settled some, ppl who prefer not to craft will just sell off crystals/shards/mats etc and buy up what they want or have it crafted (this trend is growing). I think NA coming into XI a year after release has really skewed a lot of people's perception of this launch. When we got XI, there wasn't a reason to craft much since we could just sell off drops we got while we grinded and buy gear from the AH.



Plus when it came to NA you could just doup earth staves and make like a bagilllion gil in a day.





I mean, from what I hear anyway >.>
#149 Oct 22 2010 at 2:08 PM Rating: Default
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Referring to Entropia:
Ahh, that's probably why I haven't heard of it!

Honestly, I'm not wearing rose-colored glasses. I understand how it might seem like it, but I'm not.

I just wanted to point out that while you can stare at charts, to me (and again, this is just my opinion), those charts really shouldn't have some games mixed in with others. WoW and Warhammer? Absolutely, they were the same type of game, just done a bit differently (WH RVR > WoW PVP / WoW PVE > WH PVE). Guild Wars 2 and other PvP-centric games, sure! But putting FFXIV and FFXI in with those is just silly. The base number of subscribers comes off of what people want to play.

So, if a percentage of players is pvp-oriented, and likes it, they'll go after games with great pvp in them. FFXI had "pvp", but not in the way that other games had it. And there were only a very few opportunities to play, based on Ballista callendars, Brenner, and Ballist, etc. I liked it, but I admit it wasn't like other PVP-oreinted games. (Stil gives me giggles thinking about my BLM/NIN using an Invisibility potion and standing in front of the Ballista goal with Utsusemi up, and throw down an Sleepga and nuke the heck out of the opposition...hehe).

I'm just sick of all of the bickering and "WOW vs FFXIV" type threads out there. We ALL KNOW that some things are broken. I'm just trying to convey to those people who feel the need to post about it that 1) yes, we know 2) we can't do anything about it other than unsub, and 3) if you don't like it, leave. If I stop liking the game, i'll cancel immediately.

Heck, most of these people who are complaining now are going to be heading to Guild Wars 2 and the new Star Wars game when they're released anyway.

Ahh well. Back to writing up my Weaver's guide.
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#150 Oct 22 2010 at 8:21 PM Rating: Good
Samuraiken wrote:


Where are you basing your information on? FFXI had much more than 1-2 million users logged in during it's peak...


FFXI has never even had more than 650k active accounts at one time in its entire lifespan. Outside of China and Korea, WoW is the only pay to play MMO to even reach one million subs, much less maintain those kinds of numbers.

Source:
http://www.mmogchart.com/Chart1.html

Moral of the story: In the entire history of MMOs, The Old Republic (rumored price tag between 100 and 300 million) is probably the first MMO that actually needs more than 500k subs to be highly profitable. Assuming all of the people who actually purchased FFXIV continued to play it for the next 5-10 years, S-E would turn a tidy profit without ever selling another box.





Edited, Oct 22nd 2010 10:31pm by KarlHungis
#151 Oct 22 2010 at 10:19 PM Rating: Decent
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As I posted earlier, that info is before the SE announcement on 2 million. However, this could be questionable for sure, much like the disclaimer that always gets posted when Blizzard states "10 million players!"

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/story.html?story=17723

Take that as you will.
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