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SP gain system in SP parties is ruining team-work?Follow

#1 Oct 21 2010 at 6:39 PM Rating: Excellent
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Seems like the SP distribution system for sp parties is creating a selfish environment where no player wants to work together.

Lets say our party gets aggro from something. I know a very skilled archer who can kite the mob all day, but he refuses to because it "cuts" into his SP probabilities from hitting x mob.

another example is gladiator's who main tank. For example when I main tank...If I actually tank using my abilities it kills my SP gain for said mob, but if I only provoke 1-2, guard, and just use light stab my sp gain is a lot greater because i'm not wasting stamina on skills that actually help me tank.

I've also had players just rage quit because their sp wasn't as good as X players. one player would get 500 another 100, and the -100 player would always rage quit at the higher ranks.

Wish it was more equal. I want to see what everybody else thinks.

Edited, Oct 21st 2010 8:40pm by yamers
#2 Oct 21 2010 at 6:52 PM Rating: Excellent
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yamers wrote:
Wish it was more equal.
I totally agree with that statement.

I'd like to see SE change the SP gain in parties so that it takes the average and shares it among everyone.

So if there is a 3-man party, and one player gains 100SP, another gains 150SP, and the third gains 400SP, that would be a total of 650SP. By splitting it up amongst the party members, that would mean everybody would earn 217SP, rather than one getting 100, 150, and 400.

The different roles definitely earn SP at different rates, so it would be way more fair to do it that way.

I'd also like to see them add a base SP amount to every mob depending on it's difficulty. That would be SP you're assured to get for defeating it. That way you'd never walk away from a victory having earned 0SP.
#3 Oct 21 2010 at 6:59 PM Rating: Excellent
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Over time, I think this skillup system will cost them more subscriptions than AH/retainer/repair/ui issues combined. Most people are not going to deal with it for more than 1 job.
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#4 Oct 21 2010 at 7:12 PM Rating: Good
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And i can vote that because of this SP distribution issue, it indirectly forces everyone not to party.

I have a static party since day 1 when FFXIV CE is launch.

Now, the static is disband because of this stupid issue.

WTF is the dev smoking in their office! By far the most extremely stupidity i encountered in my entire MMO gaming life span. And i've played MMO since the Ultima Online era so i have seen a lot of things.

Either you go complete Solo formula or back to Party formula. If SE wanna have both, try to play WOW a little and get back to your desktop and start the draft of the code required.

Geez... i have never encounter anything more stupid than this formula.
#5 Oct 21 2010 at 11:31 PM Rating: Decent
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Yeah, the SP gain system does force you to 'go for self' instead of playing as a team.

Typically you want tanks to aggro the targets first to build initial threat but I often see healers pulling to get a couple extra hits in. I've done it too, for the same reason. Also theres no concept of threat control, everyone unloads everything the have as fast as they can. Granted its still early - only the mid 20s - but group mechanics seem to be taking a backseat to character progression, which is the very reason some people ply MMOs.

It's not surprising.

Edited, Oct 22nd 2010 5:31am by Timorith
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#6 Oct 21 2010 at 11:34 PM Rating: Good
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yeah, there is no real reward for hard/strategic fights it seems like and yeah it makes it extremely lame to party at times (but soloing is also a horrible grind)... so I would definately agree the formula sucks and needs to change.
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#7 Oct 21 2010 at 11:56 PM Rating: Good
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Yeah it seems like Square Enix has done this to deter power levelling or leeching of any kind. However, the drawbacks seem to far outweigh the potential problems. I'd take sharing SP over any day over the threat of people boosting through parties. In any case I'm sure there can be some other form of anti-leeching programmed into the game without having to make everyone 'earn' their SP in the way it is now which is very random.
#8Siulang, Posted: Oct 22 2010 at 12:13 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) I play Conjurer as main, I grouped with a Gladitar and a Puglist since lv10. Now, The Gladitor is 29, Conjurer is 30 and Puglist is 31. Gladitor being the lowest is expected because he is also spending moves to lvl his Shield. People might think OMG, the Puglist is getting way more sp than the tank and healer! But if you look at the total skill points earned since we grouped, the total difference is less than +-10%.
#9 Oct 22 2010 at 12:29 AM Rating: Excellent
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Siulang wrote:
... I play Conjurer as main, I grouped with a Gladitar and a Puglist since lv10. Now, The Gladitor is 29, Conjurer is 30 and Puglist is 31... if you look at the total skill points earned since we grouped, the total difference is less than +-10%.
That itself is indicative of a broken skillup mechanic. Assuming nobody soloed additional SP (which might be the case,idk) if everyone is in the same group killing the same targets they should get the same reward, period.

What that SP gain spread is basically saying is that tanking and healing are +/- 10% less important to a group framework than damage dealing, which is a terrible message to send to the playerbase. What if people started thinking 'well ****, I'd like to tank or heal but I get 10% less SP so ***** that! I'm gonna DD pewpew.'

The system needs an overhaul.
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#10 Oct 22 2010 at 12:58 AM Rating: Decent
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Timorith wrote:
Siulang wrote:
... I play Conjurer as main, I grouped with a Gladitar and a Puglist since lv10. Now, The Gladitor is 29, Conjurer is 30 and Puglist is 31... if you look at the total skill points earned since we grouped, the total difference is less than +-10%.
That itself is indicative of a broken skillup mechanic. Assuming nobody soloed additional SP (which might be the case,idk) if everyone is in the same group killing the same targets they should get the same reward, period.


I think some might be inclined to disagree with you. I agree that right now the mechanics for what earns skill points, how many, and how often, need to be revised. I don't agree that everyone in a party should be getting the same amount of skill points. I don't like carrying people in groups. When I join a group, I join with the intent to give it my full attention and play to the best of my ability. I'm not interested in helping some scrub rank up his character while he spends 3/4 of his time watching TV. SE has gone with a fairly complex model for determining skill points gained and tuning it to keep everyone happy isn't going to be as easy as some might seem to want to think. I don't think the solution at this point is to slap a bandaid fix on it.
#11 Oct 22 2010 at 1:02 AM Rating: Decent
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I can assure you as Gladiator to tank mobs worth the SP for the group I get less per mob easily because in order to tank I do everything BUT swing.. otherwise it doesnt work..

In the long run SP will have to change or certain jobs just wont be worth it to SP pt
#12 Oct 22 2010 at 1:12 AM Rating: Good
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Timorith wrote:
Siulang wrote:
... I play Conjurer as main, I grouped with a Gladitar and a Puglist since lv10. Now, The Gladitor is 29, Conjurer is 30 and Puglist is 31... if you look at the total skill points earned since we grouped, the total difference is less than +-10%.
That itself is indicative of a broken skillup mechanic. Assuming nobody soloed additional SP (which might be the case,idk) if everyone is in the same group killing the same targets they should get the same reward, period.

What that SP gain spread is basically saying is that tanking and healing are +/- 10% less important to a group framework than damage dealing, which is a terrible message to send to the playerbase. What if people started thinking 'well ****, I'd like to tank or heal but I get 10% less SP so ***** that! I'm gonna DD pewpew.'

The system needs an overhaul.


Agreed. No job should be penalized on their SP gain.
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#13 Oct 22 2010 at 1:16 AM Rating: Excellent
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Aurelius wrote:
... I agree that right now the mechanics for what earns skill points, how many, and how often, need to be revised. I don't agree that everyone in a party should be getting the same amount of skill points. I don't like carrying people in groups. When I join a group, I join with the intent to give it my full attention and play to the best of my ability. I'm not interested in helping some scrub rank up his character while he spends 3/4 of his time watching TV...
Ok ill buy that.

But what about the guy who - just like you - has come to play with full attention and ability, only to be consistently awarded less SP - or ZERO sp - per kill because he healed instead of nuked, or missed several times in a row, or waited for the tank to establish initial threat?

Is it even possible for the game to distinguish between careful play and lazy play? Is it possible for the computer to determine when a player's lack of action was warranted or when their action was reckless? I don't believe it is, and in the absence of such a mechanic the only truly fair thing to do is give everyone the same reward for defeating a target.

Perhaps another extreme would be itemizing SP gained for each kill:
Your group defeats the Ugly Monster. You gain 100 experience Points and 150 Skill Points.<- baseline for the kill; awarded to everyone in range.
You gain an additional 100 Skill Points. <- for successful actions performed
You are awarded 100 experience points and 250 Skill Points. <- zomfg a TOTAL

I actually LIKE the 'successful actions award skill' model. It was used in FF:Tactics, X, XI and probably others that I haven't played. There needs to be some type of baseline gain though. When your best bet to gain SP is to perform as many actions as possible to deplete a target's health bar regardless of everything else, group mechanics fall apart - and that's what the OP is talking about.

Edited, Oct 22nd 2010 7:21am by Timorith
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#14 Oct 22 2010 at 1:41 AM Rating: Excellent
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Aurelius wrote:
I don't agree that everyone in a party should be getting the same amount of skill points. I don't like carrying people in groups. When I join a group, I join with the intent to give it my full attention and play to the best of my ability. I'm not interested in helping some scrub rank up his character while he spends 3/4 of his time watching TV. SE has gone with a fairly complex model for determining skill points gained and tuning it to keep everyone happy isn't going to be as easy as some might seem to want to think. I don't think the solution at this point is to slap a bandaid fix on it.



You do know that said "scrub" playing pug can hit 1 til the mob is dead and out sp the glad tank using defensive abilities and shield skills right. Your whole argument has nothing to do with the way the sp system is currently.

You know how my sp groups go? I'm 38 glad. I have to take actually gear off. I can't use defender, rampart, obsess, aegis boon, or my rank 20 shield skill(just got not sure of name). My healer doesn't use protect or shell. If we play at our "best" we only gimp our sp gain. If I use full armor and full buffs the healer can't heal me as much. If one dps goes ball to the wall every other dps suffers. This system is ******** and sp needs to be split evenly. It's up to you to kick said "scrub" for not playing hard, not the system.
#15 Oct 22 2010 at 1:56 AM Rating: Decent
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Greatbape wrote:
Aurelius wrote:
I don't agree that everyone in a party should be getting the same amount of skill points. I don't like carrying people in groups. When I join a group, I join with the intent to give it my full attention and play to the best of my ability. I'm not interested in helping some scrub rank up his character while he spends 3/4 of his time watching TV. SE has gone with a fairly complex model for determining skill points gained and tuning it to keep everyone happy isn't going to be as easy as some might seem to want to think. I don't think the solution at this point is to slap a bandaid fix on it.



You do know that said "scrub" playing pug can hit 1 til the mob is dead and out sp the glad tank using defensive abilities and shield skills right. Your whole argument has nothing to do with the way the sp system is currently.

You know how my sp groups go? I'm 38 glad. I have to take actually gear off. I can't use defender, rampart, obsess, aegis boon, or my rank 20 shield skill(just got not sure of name). My healer doesn't use protect or shell. If we play at our "best" we only gimp our sp gain. If I use full armor and full buffs the healer can't heal me as much. If one dps goes ball to the wall every other dps suffers. This system is bullsh*t and sp needs to be split evenly. It's up to you to kick said "scrub" for not playing hard, not the system.


You can't just fight some harder mobs?

I think Aurelius is right in saying that SP shouldn't be summed up and distributed evenly. The thought that people might go afk in a party and still get SP rewarded to them annoys me to no end. What they actually should do is reward you more for using the costly stamina abilities you need to tank and what ever else helps your party in combat or lower the stamina cost of those abilities.
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#16 Oct 22 2010 at 2:01 AM Rating: Decent
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Greatbape wrote:
Aurelius wrote:
I don't agree that everyone in a party should be getting the same amount of skill points. I don't like carrying people in groups. When I join a group, I join with the intent to give it my full attention and play to the best of my ability. I'm not interested in helping some scrub rank up his character while he spends 3/4 of his time watching TV. SE has gone with a fairly complex model for determining skill points gained and tuning it to keep everyone happy isn't going to be as easy as some might seem to want to think. I don't think the solution at this point is to slap a bandaid fix on it.



You do know that said "scrub" playing pug can hit 1 til the mob is dead and out sp the glad tank using defensive abilities and shield skills right. Your whole argument has nothing to do with the way the sp system is currently.

You know how my sp groups go? I'm 38 glad. I have to take actually gear off. I can't use defender, rampart, obsess, aegis boon, or my rank 20 shield skill(just got not sure of name). My healer doesn't use protect or shell. If we play at our "best" we only gimp our sp gain. If I use full armor and full buffs the healer can't heal me as much. If one dps goes ball to the wall every other dps suffers. This system is bullsh*t and sp needs to be split evenly. It's up to you to kick said "scrub" for not playing hard, not the system.


You're proposing a fix in line with what SE usually does...forgo thought and subtlety and just go for the ham-fisted solution regardless of what it does to the game. Your kvetch is that the system doesn't reward you in line with what you think it should. And because some people get more SP than others, your solution is to then simply total the sp earned amongst all players and distribute it evenly amongst everyone. My solution is to review and revise the system so that the rewards come more consistently while still preserving the opportunity to reward based on contribution and not simply presence.
#17 Oct 22 2010 at 3:16 AM Rating: Good
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Aurelius wrote:
You're proposing a fix in line with what SE usually does...forgo thought and subtlety and just go for the ham-fisted solution regardless of what it does to the game. Your kvetch is that the system doesn't reward you in line with what you think it should. And because some people get more SP than others, your solution is to then simply total the sp earned amongst all players and distribute it evenly amongst everyone. My solution is to review and revise the system so that the rewards come more consistently while still preserving the opportunity to reward based on contribution and not simply presence.
The way some classes are designed makes them worse off in terms of SP gain if they play that class like they're meant to.

If someone is leeching SP, they can get booted from the group. XP leeching is a problem in every single MMO with grouping. All of them still manage to function without resorting to short-changing the players with a convoluted and flawed individual XP gain system in groups.

Giving party members gain independent XP rates only results in one of two things. One, it will make groupmembers compete with one another for SP gains. Or two, it will make everyone fight below what they could manage so that everyone gets the opportunity for SP gain (what we're seeing now).

There are no other outcomes.

Classes do not all do combat the same way, so there cannot be a system that rewards them based upon their contributions in a group. The DD could spam their attacks and kill the mob fast, leaving the player who plays healer with fewer opportunities to heal. Or the mob could die fast leaving the tank with little time to do their thing. Trying to adjust all these individual SP rates would only lead to a more broken system than what we have now. The easiest and most logical solution is to split the SP amongst party members. Virtually every MMO out there does it this way, and for good reason. It works.
#18 Oct 22 2010 at 6:17 AM Rating: Default
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I had a conjurer in my grindgroup yesterday, who refused to heal because he'd lose sp xD .. ******* it ..
#19 Oct 22 2010 at 6:54 AM Rating: Default
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I would call this conj a complete idiot. Our grind groups. the healer always gains the most SP over anyone else. They are both mid level of the rest of the group and they both gain max or close to max (500sp) every fight. While the rest of the group gains 100-300
Healing has got to be the easiest and fastest SP gain of any class I know of. WAY better then nukes and using thier weapon.
#20 Oct 22 2010 at 7:00 AM Rating: Decent
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It depends on what mob the party is killing. If they are fighting blue mob that dies within 10 sec, healing wont get any SP 'cause usually the mob dies b4 the healing spell is finished and thus no SP gain for that healing.

Why killing blue with a party? I donno, ppl do wierd things these days.
#21 Oct 22 2010 at 7:01 AM Rating: Good
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Snowmitts wrote:
I would call this conj a complete idiot. Our grind groups. the healer always gains the most SP over anyone else. They are both mid level of the rest of the group and they both gain max or close to max (500sp) every fight. While the rest of the group gains 100-300
Healing has got to be the easiest and fastest SP gain of any class I know of. WAY better then nukes and using thier weapon.


I don't believe you for a second. My GF and I have been leveling together since day one. never apart, not even to farm. She is a con, I am a pug, and ever since the patch for guild leve con exploit, I am ten k ahead of her in SP.

The forums are littered with similar stories of how hard it is to gain SP for mages compared to combat classes. I have seen and watched it first hand - the discrepancy is absurd and enormous.
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#22 Oct 22 2010 at 7:11 AM Rating: Decent
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djairrick wrote:
I can assure you as Gladiator to tank mobs worth the SP for the group I get less per mob easily because in order to tank I do everything BUT swing.. otherwise it doesnt work..

In the long run SP will have to change or certain jobs just wont be worth it to SP pt


and that's the problem I have. I want to be able to tank to the best of my ability. I can hold hate no problem if I am ALLOWED to fully tank, but sometimes mages who need sp for heals will ask me to tone it down on my defensive moves.

really disheartening for somebody who wants to be the best tank possible for my party
#23 Oct 22 2010 at 7:11 AM Rating: Good
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Am I the only one who wishes SP was pooled?
It'd avoid selfish actions like having a conjurer spam a useless spell in order to level up when he should be tossing another cure.
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#24 Oct 22 2010 at 7:19 AM Rating: Good
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MajidahSihaam wrote:
Am I the only one who wishes SP was pooled?
It'd avoid selfish actions like having a conjurer spam a useless spell in order to level up when he should be tossing another cure.


I get this problem ALL TO OFTEN.
#25 Oct 22 2010 at 7:22 AM Rating: Good
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Siulang wrote:
Why killing blue with a party? I donno, ppl do wierd things these days.
This strikes me as odd. Every time I was in a group that wanted to kill reds the tank couldn't take the hits and the healer couldn't heal the damage, or got 1-shotted by errant AoE. Sure I'd love to grind xp on mobs that stayed alive for 60s each and gave me plenty of time to gain SP but I have not been able to find a balance between that and mobs that are too difficult for the group.

This is a MAJOR failing of the color-coded-mob-strength system. A mob thats good for group xp will be red to you solo. A mob that will rip your pitiful party into shreds and devour the tattered remnants of your souls is still red. Either there need to be more colors or target level needs to be displayed.

MajidahSihaam wrote:
Am I the only one who wishes SP was pooled? It'd avoid selfish actions like having a conjurer spam a useless spell in order to level up when he should be tossing another cure.
Pooled and evenly distributed, sure. This could also serve as a mechanism to keep group levels close without strictly placing a 5-rank limit on them; the farther out of the mobs level range you are, the less SP you generate for the pool.

And think about it from the players point of view, is he selfish for trying to rank up in a group? Is the GROUP selfish for expecting this player to heal them while losing SP himself? Seeing as spamming his normal attack gives him SP and throwing cures does NOT, I'd say he was playing the class as intended, wouldn't you? After all, who groups and grinds to not advance their character?

Edited, Oct 22nd 2010 1:39pm by Timorith
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#26 Oct 22 2010 at 7:28 AM Rating: Good
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Timorith wrote:
[quote=MajidahSihaam]And think about it from the players point of view, is he selfish for trying to rank up in a group? Is the GROUP selfish for expecting this player to heal them while losing SP himself? Seeing as spamming his normal attack gives him SP and throwing cures does NOT, I'd say he was playing the class as intended, wouldn't you? After all, who groups and grinds to not advance their character?


that's because the system is made that way. It's made so players ignore certain aspects of team work so they them self can advance their charachter. Is this their fault? no. It's just the flawed system that was designed by SE.

#27 Oct 22 2010 at 7:37 AM Rating: Decent
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Timorith wrote:

MajidahSihaam wrote:
Am I the only one who wishes SP was pooled? It'd avoid selfish actions like having a conjurer spam a useless spell in order to level up when he should be tossing another cure.
Pooled and evenly distributed, sure. This could also serve as a mechanism to keep group levels close without strictly placing a 5-rank limit on them; the farther out of the mobs level range you are, the less SP you generate for the pool.

And think about it from the players point of view, is he selfish for trying to rank up in a group? Is the GROUP selfish for expecting this player to heal them while losing SP himself? Seeing as spamming his normal attack gives him SP and throwing cures does NOT, I'd say he was playing the class as intended, wouldn't you? After all, who groups and grinds to not advance their character?



I think that's the very definition of selfish >_> To look only for his best interests, putting the whole party at risk.
And he does get some SP for healing, not to mention he IS getting BASE exp no matter what.

Now that aside, it'd make more sense if the SP was pooled and evenly distributed. It'd improve everyone's gameplay.
They should also award SP a lot more often for healing, buffing, etc.
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#28 Oct 22 2010 at 7:51 AM Rating: Decent
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Vackashken wrote:

I don't believe you for a second. My GF and I have been leveling together since day one. never apart, not even to farm. She is a con, I am a pug, and ever since the patch for guild leve con exploit, I am ten k ahead of her in SP.

The forums are littered with similar stories of how hard it is to gain SP for mages compared to combat classes. I have seen and watched it first hand - the discrepancy is absurd and enormous.


I second this!

Also saying 'fight tougher mobs' is no use either.

I still get better SP on Conjurer from a solo weak mob than I do fighting a tough mob in a duo.

It's all way too hit and miss. 300 SP one minute and then big fat 0 the next.
#29 Oct 22 2010 at 8:07 AM Rating: Decent
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The system sucks, and there's really no "fix" that I see other than to eliminate it completely or make each mob yield a static amount of SP (like they do XP).

One possible fix to the OP's concern is to give some marginal amount of SP for getting hit or evading an enemy attack. This encourages tanks to hold aggro and kiters to kite. However, this would probably be too easy to exploit.

Another possible fix is to balance the SP system so that you earn more SP or have a higher chance of gaining SP by doing beneficial actions for your party (i.e. healing party members yields more SP than spamming spirit dart, provoke yields more SP than spamming "1", etc.) However, this is also easily exploitable, and basically forces you to play a certain way.

The whole SP system makes sure you are doing something and not just standing there doing nothing, being power leveled, and leeching SP. Unfortunately, the something that people end up doing is whatever yields the most SP. It's only human nature to seek a return on your investment of time and energy; I don't consider myself selfish, but I'm not Gandhi either.

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#30 Oct 22 2010 at 8:10 AM Rating: Default
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i look at post one, and i think back to those who used 4 hours to grind 16-22 in party yesterday, and us others, who soloed 2 levels in same time .. ok, it is a big difference in sp gain, but it is random who get the higher. when you sum it up, you get about the same! BUT you must be in right level range! you have remembered that, right?
#31 Oct 22 2010 at 8:14 AM Rating: Decent
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If SP is pooled and split evenly between all members , then guess what job/jobs get invited to parties?

The job/jobs that generate the most SP.

That opens a whole new can of worms.
#32 Oct 22 2010 at 8:16 AM Rating: Decent
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theweenie wrote:
Aurelius wrote:
You're proposing a fix in line with what SE usually does...forgo thought and subtlety and just go for the ham-fisted solution regardless of what it does to the game. Your kvetch is that the system doesn't reward you in line with what you think it should. And because some people get more SP than others, your solution is to then simply total the sp earned amongst all players and distribute it evenly amongst everyone. My solution is to review and revise the system so that the rewards come more consistently while still preserving the opportunity to reward based on contribution and not simply presence.
The way some classes are designed makes them worse off in terms of SP gain if they play that class like they're meant to.

If someone is leeching SP, they can get booted from the group. XP leeching is a problem in every single MMO with grouping.


No it's not. Most MMOs released in the last 5 years don't feature grouping for xp. They'll feature grouping for quests or grouping for instanced content and in any/all of those cases, nobody is comparing their xp gained to the person next to them. FFXI and now XIV are the only games I've ever played where people compare what they're getting to the rest of the group and if it's low, they whine. In XIV they'd whine because someone in the party was too high level and it was killing their xp. In XIV, they're whining because someone in the party is getting zomfgwee skill points and they're hardly getting any. And instead of trying to come up with solutions you could put forward to SE that they'd actually be inclined to listen to (ie. ones that don't involve scrapping the lion's share of the system as it is now), it's all about the socialist quick-fix.

Quote:
Giving party members gain independent XP rates only results in one of two things. One, it will make groupmembers compete with one another for SP gains. Or two, it will make everyone fight below what they could manage so that everyone gets the opportunity for SP gain (what we're seeing now).

There are no other outcomes.


The sad thing is that you're right, but it's not SE's fault. It's the way the players are approaching the game in their rush to the cap. They don't go out to play the game. They don't go out to do some levequests and earn the rewards and have some fun. They're all about the SP and if the SP isn't to their liking, they're all about manipulating the system to try and get it so that it is. So they strip gear and bore themselves to tears spamming the same attack over and over and then look to SE to save them from their own stupid strategies. I wish I could say I was surprised.

Quote:
Classes do not all do combat the same way, so there cannot be a system that rewards them based upon their contributions in a group. The DD could spam their attacks and kill the mob fast, leaving the player who plays healer with fewer opportunities to heal. Or the mob could die fast leaving the tank with little time to do their thing. Trying to adjust all these individual SP rates would only lead to a more broken system than what we have now. The easiest and most logical solution is to split the SP amongst party members. Virtually every MMO out there does it this way, and for good reason. It works.


In any system where you're rewarded based on the actions you take, there's rarely (if ever) going to be a situation where you earn the same as the guy standing next to you. Sometimes it's like reading posts from 6 year olds ******** because Billy's cookie is half a centimeter bigger than his.
#33 Oct 22 2010 at 8:58 AM Rating: Good
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SP gain system will cost the majority of quits from people in this game
In the mean time SE office are still "trying" to fix issues that people pointed at SINCE the alpha version of the game.

People can look past bugs/glitches/UI/etc but they will not look past being unable to level up or gain fair SP, **** most of the people in EVERY server are still low level (i have yet to see level30+ personally)

Good job killing your own game SE ! guess what there are other games you are too slow to fix issues that even a mentally handicapped 5 years old can figure out and see.
#34 Oct 22 2010 at 9:11 AM Rating: Decent
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Aurelius wrote:
theweenie wrote:
Aurelius wrote:
You're proposing a fix in line with what SE usually does...forgo thought and subtlety and just go for the ham-fisted solution regardless of what it does to the game. Your kvetch is that the system doesn't reward you in line with what you think it should. And because some people get more SP than others, your solution is to then simply total the sp earned amongst all players and distribute it evenly amongst everyone. My solution is to review and revise the system so that the rewards come more consistently while still preserving the opportunity to reward based on contribution and not simply presence.
The way some classes are designed makes them worse off in terms of SP gain if they play that class like they're meant to.

If someone is leeching SP, they can get booted from the group. XP leeching is a problem in every single MMO with grouping.


No it's not. Most MMOs released in the last 5 years don't feature grouping for xp. They'll feature grouping for quests or grouping for instanced content and in any/all of those cases, nobody is comparing their xp gained to the person next to them. FFXI and now XIV are the only games I've ever played where people compare what they're getting to the rest of the group and if it's low, they whine. In XIV they'd whine because someone in the party was too high level and it was killing their xp. In XIV, they're whining because someone in the party is getting zomfgwee skill points and they're hardly getting any. And instead of trying to come up with solutions you could put forward to SE that they'd actually be inclined to listen to (ie. ones that don't involve scrapping the lion's share of the system as it is now), it's all about the socialist quick-fix.

Quote:
Giving party members gain independent XP rates only results in one of two things. One, it will make groupmembers compete with one another for SP gains. Or two, it will make everyone fight below what they could manage so that everyone gets the opportunity for SP gain (what we're seeing now).

There are no other outcomes.


The sad thing is that you're right, but it's not SE's fault. It's the way the players are approaching the game in their rush to the cap. They don't go out to play the game. They don't go out to do some levequests and earn the rewards and have some fun. They're all about the SP and if the SP isn't to their liking, they're all about manipulating the system to try and get it so that it is. So they strip gear and bore themselves to tears spamming the same attack over and over and then look to SE to save them from their own stupid strategies. I wish I could say I was surprised.

Quote:
Classes do not all do combat the same way, so there cannot be a system that rewards them based upon their contributions in a group. The DD could spam their attacks and kill the mob fast, leaving the player who plays healer with fewer opportunities to heal. Or the mob could die fast leaving the tank with little time to do their thing. Trying to adjust all these individual SP rates would only lead to a more broken system than what we have now. The easiest and most logical solution is to split the SP amongst party members. Virtually every MMO out there does it this way, and for good reason. It works.


In any system where you're rewarded based on the actions you take, there's rarely (if ever) going to be a situation where you earn the same as the guy standing next to you. Sometimes it's like reading posts from 6 year olds ******** because Billy's cookie is half a centimeter bigger than his.


The current SP system is deeply flawed and cannot be fixed. It requires total revamp.

In any system where you are rewarded based on the actions you take , and if the guy next to you is doing the same action and he gets 500 SP and you get 0 SP something is WRONG.
Sometimes listening to a 6 year old ******** about Billy's bigger cookie is better than worrying/guessing about what a 6 year old is keeping mum about .

Edited, Oct 22nd 2010 11:13am by pec
#35 Oct 22 2010 at 9:51 AM Rating: Excellent
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SephNex wrote:
SP gain system will cost the majority of quits from people in this game
In the mean time SE office are still "trying" to fix issues that people pointed at SINCE the alpha version of the game.

People can look past bugs/glitches/UI/etc but they will not look past being unable to level up or gain fair SP, **** most of the people in EVERY server are still low level (i have yet to see level30+ personally)

Good job killing your own game SE ! guess what there are other games you are too slow to fix issues that even a mentally handicapped 5 years old can figure out and see.


i agree with this 100%. I don't think alot of people are going to deal with this leveling system for more than 1 class.

I'd much rather see a system thats vulnerable to leechers (because you can boot them when you realize), but is more fair to the guy using the best abilities, and not just the ones that generate the most SP.
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#36 Oct 22 2010 at 10:12 AM Rating: Good
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Here are my thoughts for grouping, some my agree, some may disagree, but it makes sense in mah brain:

They should change the system so that you get a base amount of sp per kill ('cause Gods, I hate when I win an epic fight and get 23 sp.)

All sp gained by members is pooled and distributed as bonus sp.

Bonus is only gained from fighting mobs that are higher than the average of the party.

It gives all party roles sp, so people want to heal and by the gods destroy everything in sight, and fast.

It also gives SE the protection they oh so desire from people leeching, because you'll only get bonus if you're fighting tough stuff and will need all members of said party.
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#37 Oct 22 2010 at 10:34 AM Rating: Good
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Aurelius wrote:
It's the way the players are approaching the game in their rush to the cap. They don't go out to play the game. They don't go out to do some levequests and earn the rewards and have some fun. They're all about the SP and if the SP isn't to their liking, they're all about manipulating the system to try and get it so that it is. So they strip gear and bore themselves to tears spamming the same attack over and over and then look to SE to save them from their own stupid strategies. I wish I could say I was surprised.
You have to realize, for every player that enjoys doing leves, there's a player that enjoys grinding to cap. Grinding may not be fun for you, but for others it is fun. The people in those grind parties aren't bored to tears, they are annoyed at the SP gain mechanic.
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#38 Oct 22 2010 at 11:05 AM Rating: Default
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I suck at math, so I don't know if the following is better than solo... but I do know it would foster teamwork.

Total SP from PT members in a fight per mob, +% party bonus if meeting requirements

total/# of party members.

I could barely code a poker game that used 4 decks in Highschool so I don't know how difficult the above would be to code, but it seems fairly simple even for me who sucks at math.

Of course you would have to some how enforce everyone performing at least 1 action or something to keep folks from /follow PLing.
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#39 Oct 22 2010 at 12:16 PM Rating: Decent
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RedGalka wrote:
Greatbape wrote:
Aurelius wrote:
I don't agree that everyone in a party should be getting the same amount of skill points. I don't like carrying people in groups. When I join a group, I join with the intent to give it my full attention and play to the best of my ability. I'm not interested in helping some scrub rank up his character while he spends 3/4 of his time watching TV. SE has gone with a fairly complex model for determining skill points gained and tuning it to keep everyone happy isn't going to be as easy as some might seem to want to think. I don't think the solution at this point is to slap a bandaid fix on it.



You do know that said "scrub" playing pug can hit 1 til the mob is dead and out sp the glad tank using defensive abilities and shield skills right. Your whole argument has nothing to do with the way the sp system is currently.

You know how my sp groups go? I'm 38 glad. I have to take actually gear off. I can't use defender, rampart, obsess, aegis boon, or my rank 20 shield skill(just got not sure of name). My healer doesn't use protect or shell. If we play at our "best" we only gimp our sp gain. If I use full armor and full buffs the healer can't heal me as much. If one dps goes ball to the wall every other dps suffers. This system is bullsh*t and sp needs to be split evenly. It's up to you to kick said "scrub" for not playing hard, not the system.


You can't just fight some harder mobs?

I think Aurelius is right in saying that SP shouldn't be summed up and distributed evenly. The thought that people might go afk in a party and still get SP rewarded to them annoys me to no end. What they actually should do is reward you more for using the costly stamina abilities you need to tank and what ever else helps your party in combat or lower the stamina cost of those abilities.


This argument has come up twice now and its the dumbest thing I've heard. Kick the guy going "afk" out of the party and replace him...In FFXI the xp split was distributed evenly (as long as everyone was the same level) and it worked wonders...SP gain in this game sucks. Period.
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#40 Oct 22 2010 at 12:49 PM Rating: Excellent
Quote:
I totally agree with that statement.

I'd like to see SE change the SP gain in parties so that it takes the average and shares it among everyone.

So if there is a 3-man party, and one player gains 100SP, another gains 150SP, and the third gains 400SP, that would be a total of 650SP. By splitting it up amongst the party members, that would mean everybody would earn 217SP, rather than one getting 100, 150, and 400.

The different roles definitely earn SP at different rates, so it would be way more fair to do it that way.

I'd also like to see them add a base SP amount to every mob depending on it's difficulty. That would be SP you're assured to get for defeating it. That way you'd never walk away from a victory having earned 0SP.


The Weenie is GOOD!!! The Weenie is Wise!!!

I refuse to give into this *** of nine system.Main tank will be half hp people tell me don't heal them tell were engaged again.Only buff at start of fight etc. etc.I'm going to try and play correctly even if i cant get maximum sp while doing it.I'm going to use my abilities when it best supports the party not when i can only gain sp.

Edited, Oct 22nd 2010 2:51pm by SsXTricKeY
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#41 Oct 22 2010 at 12:53 PM Rating: Good
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The easiest and quickest solution to this is to pool and split the SP evenly between all members. However, even then, classes still need their SP gain adjusted.

SE spent way too much time trying to outsmart the botters/RMTers that they made some of the stupidest design decisions.

This system is fixable, but it will never be an AMAZING system without it being completely redone.
#42 Oct 22 2010 at 1:39 PM Rating: Good
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Same issue in closed beta. Same issue in open beta. Same issue in retail. When the beta forums were up, everyone realized the issue with SP gain. It was better to use ur basic attack and ignore abilities because u want to try to rack up as much SP as u possibly can during one fight.
#43 Oct 22 2010 at 1:52 PM Rating: Excellent
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I've been trying to ponder a way around this myself, as it stands now the Sp system for fighting lacks a lot fine tuning from what appears to be a lack of input during the beta process.

When you compare the pace of skill between hand/land and then the fighting imo at least hand/land have a well fine tuned skill progression. While Land classes may gain low skill for each successful or even unsuccessful cut they are always guaranteed skill so you can determine how many successful cuts it would take to reach your next class rank. Another good thing about land is at 25 you obtain a randomly active ability called "Sweat of Brow" which doubles skill gains when active and can be used on other land classes right away with no real sign of it being gimped. It also has optimal rank of 15.

When it comes to crafting the same ideal comes with land class you can determine how many synths it would take to rank up and what the minimum may be based on all of the being successful and how many more it may take if some synths fail.

Now if you look at the fighting classes you see that they lack a true "stable" form of gaining skill and you can sometimes go a few mobs without gaining skill. Even worse is how random the ability "Guardian's Favor" is when you use it in a leve. Personally I would sometimes find myself gaining more skill when I don't use it then when i do use it. Another problem comes from the fact that there is no sense of a raised cap in the amount of skill you can gain from a mob. When you consider that for the most part land users have no competition for gaining skill and hand users have their own separate amount of leves to gain skill for free. Another thing is while as of now gatherers are limited to the amount of leves they can do for one profession at 20+ the amount of skill they gain from just doing those is insane.

What I'm getting at is there's an aspect missing that should make skill gains more fluid.
One idea is the 500 cap needs to increase every 10 levels by 250 to compensate for the amount of skill needed later on.
1-9=500
40-50=1500 cap

Another issue is the lack of actual balance when in a party. I've been trying to think of what would work best and the best I came up with was when in a party skill gains are ranked based on who got the highest and who got the lowest. Basically say skill gains were:
500
350
200
150
100
50

For a party of 6 at lv 8 so the skill cap would be 500. Now it would calculate the order and then you would end up with the numbers:
550
450
350
350
450
550

However since the skill cap for that level is 500 the 2 550's would lose the 50 and it would be given the the players with the lowest skill gains leave you with 500-450-400-400-450-500. Compared to how it is now and with the way the system works now this is the fairest idea I can configure that doesn't leave out those that just get unlucky while fighting. While there may be issues with it overall it's definitely hard to find a proper balance when the class system is based on random modifier of gaining skill.

Land:Every Attempt fail or success gives skill
Hand:Every attempt fail or succeed gives skill
War/Magic:Every successful action has a chance at skill

Above is the basis of what each class skill system is. A problem I see with actually allowing every action to give skill would be people would always be wanting to cap their skill before killing and moving onto the next mob in which case one would say that it would take 48 mobs to rank up from 22 marauder to 23.

This just brings me back to the idea above while not everyone would be getting a "fair" amount of skill by a few points if everyone in the party is working together then there should be no problem if the one who isn't getting much skill during a fight gets his skill boost from the one that got a lot of skill. Then in the sense of the person who randomly join is seen as a leech it's as easy as booting them from the party and continuing on.

Overall though the biggest change I see needed with skill gain is the 500 cap imposed on it if you consider at the least you need to kill 48 mobs from 22-23 you might be able to multiply that number 10 times for the skill needed to go from 45-46. That's definitely a lot of mobs to lol.

But yea, as someone who's dived into the 3 different ways of gaining skill I can definitely see an imbalance when it comes to the fighting side. can only hope that November comes fast enough and they create a concept that will really boost the objective of partying up more often but til then I"ll enjoy my time with crafting and gathering since I have a better idea of when I"ll rank up.

On another side note, Weapons wear out way to fast, going from 19-22 I've had to repair my great Axe from 0% twice meanwhile as a botanist I've gone from 22-25 and only had to repair it once, so in the sense of the rate of durability it doesn't really equal with the amount of skill I gain based on the weakening of other weapons/tools I have.
#44 Oct 22 2010 at 5:18 PM Rating: Decent
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SolidMack wrote:


This argument has come up twice now and its the dumbest thing I've heard. Kick the guy going "afk" out of the party and replace him...In FFXI the xp split was distributed evenly (as long as everyone was the same level) and it worked wonders...SP gain in this game sucks. Period.


I don't join groups to babysit and keep tabs on everyone to see who is putting in a reasonable effort and who is coasting on the coat tails of the rest of the party. You're over-simplifying it to make a point you can't make otherwise.

The concept of SP earned based on what you do is a good one. The current implementation of that concept needs work.
#45 Oct 22 2010 at 5:29 PM Rating: Good
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Aurelius wrote:
SolidMack wrote:


This argument has come up twice now and its the dumbest thing I've heard. Kick the guy going "afk" out of the party and replace him...In FFXI the xp split was distributed evenly (as long as everyone was the same level) and it worked wonders...SP gain in this game sucks. Period.


I don't join groups to babysit and keep tabs on everyone to see who is putting in a reasonable effort and who is coasting on the coat tails of the rest of the party. You're over-simplifying it to make a point you can't make otherwise.

The concept of SP earned based on what you do is a good one. The current implementation of that concept needs work.

And the need to not babysit and not have someone just afk soaking exp is easily solved by what the other posted suggested - boot them.

We all knows it happens, and it does not take any effort of "babysitting" to realize a party member is either afk or half asleep. I don't think the other poster is over-simplifying.

The SP for effort is a good idea on paper. In practical sense with each class having different abilities (and ability speeds) it quickly breaks down to some classes having quicker SP gain than others. While it would not matter as much for a random pick up party, it is a major problem in static parties. As it stands right now, Friends will eventually not be able to party together anymore due to no fault of their own. No matter how perfect the system is - they will always have different SP gains. This is unavoidable considering the nature of attack and attack speeds. The system by the nature of its design rewards spamming abilities as soon as you can. Which is not tactical nor realistic.

It is FAR easier and more efficient to return to the "Group Effort" concept and award SP to the entire group equally splitted.
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#46 Oct 22 2010 at 5:38 PM Rating: Good
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When on Conjurer, I feel I am competing with other conjurers to get my cures off first so I can get decent sp, int he process nullifying their gains and hampering their progress. Not cool either way.

When duoing with my lancer friend, I found to gain g od sp on my con 1) dont nuke, lots of dmg for usually no sp, mobs dies fast we both get bad sp and 2) Dont buff, let him get beat up so I can cure spam him and gain sp.

Essentially it rewards you for spamming your basic attacks/heals and not using your abilities efficiently. The current retainer changes I am mostly ok with now, knowing a search function is coming, this sp stuff is my main problem and frustration with the game now.
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#47 Oct 22 2010 at 5:48 PM Rating: Decent
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I agree w/ the OP. How the **** did the brains at Square Enix not see this? Hellooooo I got kicked outta a group because I did too much dmg on the pull... wtf?
#48 Oct 22 2010 at 6:19 PM Rating: Good
My husband and I started a Pug/Con duo, with me as the con. He's @ 14.5 and I just hit 12.
I do alot of spikes and stoneskin, with a little healing. Throwing in some darts or debuff. We have done no extra levies while on these 2. It really does need to be more even. He will have to change his class, so I can catch up.
#49 Oct 22 2010 at 7:42 PM Rating: Decent
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might sound silly daviana, but dont buff him, just let him get beat up so you can cure between darts you will get much more sp. Only buff if its literally needed
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#50 Oct 22 2010 at 7:56 PM Rating: Default
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JamesX wrote:
Quote:

I don't join groups to babysit and keep tabs on everyone to see who is putting in a reasonable effort and who is coasting on the coat tails of the rest of the party. You're over-simplifying it to make a point you can't make otherwise.

The concept of SP earned based on what you do is a good one. The current implementation of that concept needs work.

And the need to not babysit and not have someone just afk soaking exp is easily solved by what the other posted suggested - boot them.


Or better yet, present them with a system where they have direct incentive to play like they mean it.

Quote:
We all knows it happens, and it does not take any effort of "babysitting" to realize a party member is either afk or half asleep. I don't think the other poster is over-simplifying.


So what you're saying is that if the system was properly tuned and you were rewarded more consistently and more in line with the rest of the party based on your contribution, you'd still want SP to be pooled and distributed?


Edited, Oct 22nd 2010 6:56pm by Aurelius
#51 Oct 22 2010 at 9:50 PM Rating: Decent
13 posts
This system is terrible and there are many reasons why~

In a static EXP situation the faster you kill the more EXP you get. This is good because~

It will reward people for playing well. Because if you play well and are skilled in each of the roles you will kill mobs faster and you earn more EXP.

In a Static EXP situation
-If a tank holds agro on all mobs and times his defensive abilities to max effect . He will take much less dmg and the group will require less healing . This leaves the healer to do other tasks such as dpsing /debuffing/buffing which in turn speeds up kills increasing EXP earned
-A DD Maximising DPS by timing skills and not wasting tp. Also by using debuffs that support the time. will cause mobs to die quicker =more EXP
-A healer who also Dps/buff/debuff and knows how to balance spells and mana efficiency will also cause mobs to die faster
Also they may even do battle regimens if they improve kill speed.

In a skill chance situation
-a tank will want to take more dmg so healer can get some exp, he will also want to not waste time using defensive cooldowns or time them properly otherwise he gets little points since he wont have time to mash 111111111111111111
-Dps needs to just spam 1111111111111111111111 without any thought what so ever and try to slow down DPS. Dont you dare try using weapon skills or debuffs/buffs ! it will ruin others chance at points.
-A healer needs to focus on just healing and spaming 11111111111111111 so they get points slowing down kills since they are doing nothing else.

In the end they kill the mob slower and due to the mob skill point cap at 500 . Also the fact that sp gain is percentage chance they will never be able to progress . What i mean is in the static EXP group you want to maximize dps and efficiency so you aim to gear, improve stratagies and learn how to do the best in your role. Because you can always kill a mob faster and faster and thus gain more EXP. Whereas a skill up chance party can never really increase their gain. They dont want to gear up (why bother? it reduces EXP), they dont improve strategy (why bother? it reduces EXP),they also dont want to get better either because it reduces EXP.

Anyone with half a brain will realise this system was put in place to stop people from leveling too fast by slowing down gains .

The skill point gain chance group will plateau very quickly because there is 500 points cap(if there was no cap it would make more sense to use a skill point gain chance) and killing mobs quicker wont improve this gain. Cant really do anything to improve EXP per hour.

The static EXP group will never hit the cap of EXP. They can always improve and aim to kill mobs faster for more points per hour.

Now about the evil afk people. Since there is no auto attack. It is pretty **** obvious if someone isnt mashing 1111. Also since mobs cant be pulled they will be standing by themselves when you run of to find more mobs. Also a party full of semi afkers will get much less pnts then a group working their butts off in a static EXP situation as it should be (because the static EXP people will kill faster).

THERE IS ONE REASON WHY SE MADE THIS SYSTEM. To slow down exp gain. Since its impossible to improve EXP gain (due to 500 cap and nature of system) it will slow down exp gain=more hours spent leveling to cap. They show that they are fully capable of implementing static exp (because crafting is static, so is physical exp as well) but they wont since it will allow people to actually improve their sp gain.

Edited, Oct 22nd 2010 11:56pm by heshhesh
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