Forum Settings
       
« Previous 1 2
This Forum is Read Only

Let's Define Difficult Shall We?Follow

#1 Oct 21 2010 at 11:04 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
19 posts
After a conversation with someone tonight about MMOs, it was brought to my attention that "WoW is easy" and "FFXIV is hard". Before I go any further, let me state that I agree with that statement, but I immediately asked: "Define Hard"? The response given to me was "Well it takes lots of time and patience to get to the cap and you'll need friends to help along the way, FFXI was the same way, the end-game consisted of hours and hours of play sessions to get notorious monsters that would only appear every week or two".

It then immediately hit me. I consider WoW to be easy due to the fact that the gameplay is EASY. There really is no strategy involved, as long as you have gear you can go through pretty much anything in the game with little issues at all as long as your team has some degree of minor intelligence. Let's be honest, the game is easy. On the other hand I do consider FFXIV to be much more difficult due to actually having to think on what to use next due to the limited stamina in order to execute the move, the mob's aoe ability, keeping aggro (which is more difficult than wow imo), basically you gotta make the right choices, watch the aoe, and be careful and strategical when fighting.

Now, as you noticed above, the person I was conversing with stated it was harder because "..lots of time and patience". Having not played through FFXI to "end game" this frustrated the **** out of me due to the fact that I work full time, have a family, go to school, and run a business during off hours. My average playtime is 2-3 hours per day. So the frustration is why is "more time investment" the definition of "difficult"? Why is casual player defined as one that needs an easy game?

Why then, mmo players and developers, can casual and difficult not work together? Why do the "more difficult" games focus on the unemployed & student base of players?

WHY CAN'T WE HAVE A DIFFICULT GAME THAT DOES NOT REQUIRE ALL OTHER RESPONSIBILITIES TO DISSOLVE?

I'm just curious as to how many out there define difficult as something that requires massive amounts of time investments instead of the gameplay itself? If this where anything else it would be laughable. Is walking 5 miles difficult? No, not at all, it's simply a much larger time investment than driving. Anyone else out there agree? Anyone else out there hate that fact that the working family oriented individual cannot enjoy MMOs in this day and age?
____________________________
-----------------------------------------------
Tyrrien Irinnis
Lancer
Rabanastre Server
#2 Oct 21 2010 at 11:20 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
*
59 posts
Odd, only hard thing in FF XIV i've found at this point (level 20 THM), is trying to deal with the wait times, deal with the bugs (infinitely healing bandits, i'm looking at you), try to not go insane of hours upon hours of killing blue mobs (mainly moles for the past few levels), trying to buy a new tool for my crafting jobs (Goldsmithing and Weaving at 15, Alchemy at 10), and trying not to just uninstall the game when i fail at a craft (string of failures at white orb) that i could succesfull do at rank 5 when i'm now rank 15.

Sure maybe some more difficult stuff is up ahead, but mostly, main challenges in this game not out of any actual challenge in the game, but bugs, lag and bad ui and game design (seriously, when the mobs in leves turn into imps, why most i loose target, and have a bloody sign block my view so i can't retarget them).

WoW is easy, but mostly it is due to decent ui, lack of bugs, and, of late, huge gear inflation.
But also because the design choice is more about letting people level alone if they want to, or group if they want to, and leaving the challenges to heroic instances (not much there, mostly because of gear inflation) and raids (the same) and hardmode boss fights (this is where real challenges are now).
Blizzard wants people to enjoy their game, wants them to keep playing, and wants to have as many people as possible go through as much of the content as possible (wich is why the gear inflation exists, and why raids get nerfed overtime), and looking how they're doing, i can't really say they're wrong in their decision from a business point of view.

Curth79 wrote:
I'm just curious as to how many out there define difficult as something that requires massive amounts of time investments instead of the gameplay itself? If this where anything else it would be laughable. Is walking 5 miles difficult? No, not at all, it's simply a much larger time investment than driving. Anyone else out there agree? Anyone else out there hate that fact that the working family oriented individual cannot enjoy MMOs in this day and age?


Agree with you on that, i disagree that FF XIV is any harder than wow (apart from bugs and design issues already mentioned), but i onboard with you that game developers should give us challenges that test our skills instead of our patience.

Edited, Oct 22nd 2010 1:30am by J4n1
#3 Oct 21 2010 at 11:43 PM Rating: Good
**
451 posts
I find the combat in FFXIV to be the easiest I have ever seen in an MMO.

It is the most basic thing ever, standing still clicking a move or 2 till a mob dies. There's no real usefull CC or need for it, nothing is mobile. Fights are static. And the abilities are the most generic abilities I have ever used in an MMO.

I find WoW easy also, alot easier than it used to be.But alot of people that say it's easy haven't completed half of the end-game content through the years. I bet 90% of the people that say it's easy have never seen 25HLK let alone the kill. And thats the Easiest imo of all the years raids, Sunwell, AQ40 were way harder. Killing mobs while you grind and run heroics for ghetto epix isn't the game.

FFXI end-game was my favourite, I remember the first time my LS VV on Garuda killed Kirin for the first time, first NA LS to do it. IT was EPIC. I remember the first time an LS tried to kill AV and no one knew how to do it yet, they kept pulling it and wiping and trading to other LS. I went to bed, woke up the next morning they were still at it.

Anyhow, I can't define FFXIV as easy or difficult yet, since theres no endgame. But I can say of all the games I've played, at the leveling stage, it is the easiest. It is just plain basic.

The only thing difficult in FFXIV so far is selling items to a vendor.




Edit: Since someone else brought up WoW I will say this. One thing they do VERY well, is balance the game for Casual gamers and Hardcore gamers. Someone that is a first time MMO player can jump in and level and run some heroics at 80 and have fun and feel like they are doing something, and the more HC types can go for achievements like HLK 10 and 25, and before ICC there was Ulduar hardmodes and TOTGC 10-25. This is something SE said they were trying to do. And I don't think they did a very good job at it.

And it's not just that way cause WoW is mature and FFXIV is new, in Vanilla casuals could run dungeons and HC had raids and pvp. They were allways good at balancing casual and hardcore.

Edited, Oct 22nd 2010 1:48am by KristoFurwalken

Edited, Oct 22nd 2010 1:49am by KristoFurwalken

Edited, Oct 22nd 2010 1:52am by KristoFurwalken
#4 Oct 22 2010 at 12:00 AM Rating: Excellent
***
1,636 posts
Hard is a vague word to use for MMOs. I would say FFXIV is very hard, due to its time sinks and poor accessibility. I don't think in any way that its challenging.

I think the main disconnect is the players who prefer the pre-WOW games to the post-WOW games. The older games emphasized grinding, things were slow, and players were divided into those who had put in the time/work and those who hadn't.

The newer games, following wow especially after TBC, tend to shorten the process. Personally I feel the difficulty from start to endgame is there, just with less time sinks in the middle. Its more friendly to players of various playstyles. And, if the games content is good enough, and especially if updates come fast enough, players stick around despite having finished earlier to either level another class, or just stay part of the community.
____________________________


#5 Oct 22 2010 at 12:19 AM Rating: Excellent
Scholar
***
1,104 posts
Curth79 wrote:
...I consider WoW to be easy due to the fact that the gameplay is EASY. There really is no strategy involved, as long as you have gear you can go through pretty much anything in the game with little issues at all as long as your team has some degree of minor intelligence. ... On the other hand I do consider FFXIV to be much more difficult due to actually having to think on what to use next due to the limited stamina in order to execute the move, the mob's aoe ability, keeping aggro (which is more difficult than wow imo), basically you gotta make the right choices, watch the aoe, and be careful and strategical when fighting.
Let's be honest with ourselves here. Seriously.

The reason WoW's gameplay is 'easy' is because strategies are planned, attempted, tested and refined by play testers on the PTR before content patches ever go live - then that information is disseminated over the internet. With transparent mechanics for things like hit rate, healing output and damage mitigation, theory crafting is solid and accurate. It is simple to gear and spec properly for the job, then get out there and enjoy playing.

In addition, WoW has an unparalleled amount of developer-community interaction happening EVERY DAY: the 'blue' posts will CLEARLY explain their vision and their intent behind changes and design choices - even the unpopular ones. They basically get into the head of the gamer and design the game from a player's perspective.

I don't get the same feeling from XIV. I wasn't in alpha or beta but I commonly hear the sentiment expressed that SE did not listen to feedback nor change anything that needed to be fixed. In Live, the game mechanics are convoluted and underexplained to the point where nobody is sure what stat does what, or to what extent variables effect the outcome of a given situation, which makes it very difficult to play or even CRAFT effectively and efficiently. A lot of theorycraft is mainly conjecture as a result.

There aren't any 'bosses' in the game yet but if there were, who would playtest them? Who would say 'Hey SE! This boss' special attack does 100,000 damage! Isnt that a bit much?' Would those opinions even be listened to? And who interacts with the player community? Sure we get a letter of apology for a dismal launch, but who says 'yes, we hear you concerns.' or even 'we realize that players dislike this mechanic but our reason for it is _____.'

What you're describing as 'easy' in WoW is actually streamlining. What you consider acceptable difficulty in XIV is actually inaccessibility.

Edited, Oct 22nd 2010 6:20am by Timorith
____________________________

Melaahna Valiera
#6 Oct 22 2010 at 1:10 AM Rating: Good
****
4,146 posts
Curth79 wrote:
I consider WoW to be easy due to the fact that the gameplay is EASY. There really is no strategy involved, as long as you have gear you can go through pretty much anything in the game with little issues at all as long as your team has some degree of minor intelligence. Let's be honest, the game is easy. On the other hand I do consider FFXIV to be much more difficult due to actually having to think on what to use next due to the limited stamina in order to execute the move, the mob's aoe ability, keeping aggro (which is more difficult than wow imo), basically you gotta make the right choices, watch the aoe, and be careful and strategical when fighting.


You point out that WoW is easy due to lack of strategy(gameplay in your words), yet you also admit to having no endgame experience... No one is going to take you seriously. Especially when all of the reasons you list for FFXIV being difficult are all present in WoW, GW, FFXI and pretty much any other MMO.

I do agree with Timorith on this one though. The reason WoW seems easier is that there are so many more players who go through content that the strategies are common knowledge maybe a week after release. Compare this to FFXI(because there is no endgame in FFXIV) and you'll see that there are still mobs in the game which have yet to be beaten, at least with the means which developers had in mind during their creation. You definitely can't blame gear since the dev team who beat it was obviously wearing sub par gear by endgame standards. Perhaps it is too difficult? Maybe these players lack "some degree of minor intelligence"?







____________________________
Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#7 Oct 22 2010 at 1:39 AM Rating: Excellent
*****
11,576 posts
Agreed that someone who hasn't been involved in WoW endgame can't comment on how "easy" it is. Ranking up in XIV is absolutely no "harder" than it is to level in WoW. At all. It might be more random. It would most likely take longer to get a combat class to rank 50 in FFXIV than it does in WoW, but those aren't functions of difficulty, because those are aspects that are out of your control. You have no control over how many SP it takes to get from rank 30 -> 31. SE makes that decision. You have no control over the formulas used to determine whether or not you get skill points from any given action in combat. SE does.

"Difficult" means low margin for error. Very little time to make decisions + substantial consequences for making the wrong decision = difficult. That's your formula for difficulty in an MMO. If you have half a second to make a decision and making the wrong one means you fail, it's difficult. And it becomes less difficult with more experience because you'll have already made the decision several times and instead of having to spend that half second deciding you spend it executing.

Having to spend four hours doing something with a wide margin for error is not difficult. It's time consuming. having to repeat the same action hundreds of times in order to accomplish your goal is not difficult. It's tedious. If you enjoy the process you're not going to care if it takes hours upon hours of the same thing over and over and over again, but whether you enjoy it or not doesn't make the game any more or less difficult.
#8 Oct 22 2010 at 2:14 AM Rating: Excellent
37 posts
I just wish to address a few things here that I think are wrong with your statement. However when reading this, don't think that I'm pro WoW.


Curth79 wrote:
After a conversation with someone tonight about MMOs, it was brought to my attention that "WoW is easy" and "FFXIV is hard". Before I go any further, let me state that I agree with that statement, but I immediately asked: "Define Hard"? The response given to me was "Well it takes lots of time and patience to get to the cap and you'll need friends to help along the way, FFXI was the same way, the end-game consisted of hours and hours of play sessions to get notorious monsters that would only appear every week or two".


I believe the term you're looking to define is difficulty not hard, and the person you spoke with should know that you can't really determine the difficulty of a game based on time and patience. Those two factors are not what I would consider to be a difficult part of an MMO. Every MMO on the market requires time and patience. I think the word your friend must have been trying to define was actually tedious.


Curth79 wrote:
It then immediately hit me. I consider WoW to be easy due to the fact that the gameplay is EASY. There really is no strategy involved, as long as you have gear you can go through pretty much anything in the game with little issues at all as long as your team has some degree of minor intelligence. Let's be honest, the game is easy. On the other hand I do consider FFXIV to be much more difficult due to actually having to think on what to use next due to the limited stamina in order to execute the move, the mob's aoe ability, keeping aggro (which is more difficult than wow imo), basically you gotta make the right choices, watch the aoe, and be careful and strategical when fighting.


Now on this statement I'll both agree with you, and at the same time completely disagree with you. The part I agree with is that WoW has become much easier and much less rewarding for end game raiding guilds. Once Blizzard implemented achievments, instance difficulty went to crap, because they wanted everyone to experence endgame content. However as for Sunwell (The last good WoW instance) it was on par or greater difficulty then anything I encountered in FFXI. But what shocks me here is that you say FFXIV is much more difficult than WoW..... Why? because you have to watch a stamina bar and make sure you have enough before using your ability? Well that's just silly. Try being an oldschool totem twisting shaman and you tell me which game more difficult. Look reading these two paragrahs alone tell me that you have probably never completed any end game in WoW, so I'm sorry if you didn't understand some of the terms that I used.


Edited, Oct 22nd 2010 4:27am by Thundernova
#9 Oct 22 2010 at 2:18 AM Rating: Excellent
*****
11,576 posts
Thundernova wrote:
Now on this statement I'll both agree with you, and at the same time completely disagree with you. The part I agree with is that WoW has become much easier and much less rewarding for end game raiding guilds. Once Blizzard implemented achievments, instance difficulty went to crap, because they wanted everyone to experence endgame content. However as for Sunwell (The last good WoW instance) it was on par or greater difficulty then anything I encountered in FFXI. But what shocks me here is that you say FFXIV is much more difficult than WoW..... Why? because you have to watch a stamina bar and make sure you have enough before using your ability?


If that was the criteria for labeling FFXIV as more difficult than WoW, I'd probably counter it with a link to the description of combat basics for WoW's Rogue. I think some people might be shocked at the resemblance.
#10 Oct 22 2010 at 2:28 AM Rating: Decent
Scholar
**
327 posts
Curth79 wrote:


WHY CAN'T WE HAVE A DIFFICULT GAME THAT DOES NOT REQUIRE ALL OTHER RESPONSIBILITIES TO DISSOLVE?


EvE Online, Hard as heck, but you can level up your skills by logging on once for 15min and changing a spreadsheet type thing, and then your good till that skill finishes. Downside is some skills take upwards of 2months to complete on the high end...most taking 5days once you get proficient at the game.
____________________________
FFXI: [Asura] "Midou" (PLD) || FFXIV: [Bodhum] "Midou Lii" (???) || EVEOnline: "Thion Li"


#11 Oct 22 2010 at 2:31 AM Rating: Good
37 posts
:) yeah really....

I just don't understand how some people can even begin to think FFXIV is difficult. It can be tedious and boring. But it anything but difficult.
#12 Oct 22 2010 at 2:45 AM Rating: Default
*
155 posts
wow??


lol
____________________________


#13 Oct 22 2010 at 2:45 AM Rating: Good
***
2,120 posts
I don't think FFXIV is "difficult"...just time-consuming. I don't equate the two. When I see the ranks & levels of some other players I don't think "Oooh, they're good"... I think **********, and I thought I played a lot."

As for casual players enjoying the game, I think it can be done. We have some in our LS & they seem to enjoy themselves. I guess that would also come down to defining what "enjoying an mmo" means to you. If it means being one of the 1st to cap on your server then the answer's no. A lot can still be accomplished in shorter amounts of play time if you make full use of it though. If I were short on time I'd take all 16 leves from the same town, not bother with traveling time to the other 2... knock those out and grind somethin' I wanted to level.

A big part of paying for mmos is expecting the game to last for quite a while. If that were an issue for me I'd question why I'm playing one. I agree that touting FFXIV as being more difficult because of the timesinks is pretty silly. I kind of expected a big timesink when I bought the game though...
____________________________

#14 Oct 22 2010 at 2:54 AM Rating: Decent
Thief's Knife
*****
15,053 posts
Curth79 wrote:


WHY CAN'T WE HAVE A DIFFICULT GAME THAT DOES NOT REQUIRE ALL OTHER RESPONSIBILITIES TO DISSOLVE?



Because, "challenging" boss fights are not possible in an MMO, or really in any video game.

One of the following will always happen.

A. A strategy will be developed and disseminated on the internet which (barring retarded players) will enable you to win every time as long as you follow it. You can make these seem hard by having a "you must never let this happen" situation in the fight such as a "horrible rape radius" AOE that must be stopped very quickly or it wipes you. (FFXI's devs really, really loved the sh*t out of these. Most endgame bosses had AOEs that would wipe your whole alliance if not stunned and all it took to loose the fight was a BLM missing a stun)

B. Whether you win or not is completely based on if you get lucky with what the mob does. Winning or not winning is entirely luck based.

C. The fight is simply impossible, you can't win no matter what you do (see Absolute Virtue)



That pretty much just leaves timesinks.

Also, operant conditioning and all that. They want you addicted which is why they always use random drops. It's the most effective reward schedule to keep you addicted to the game. (I know it seems like a fixed reward schedule would be more effective at keeping you playing but it's actually random reward scheduling that is more addictive)



Edited, Oct 22nd 2010 6:09am by Lobivopis
____________________________
Final Fantasy XI 12-14-11 Update wrote:
Adjust the resolution of menus.
The main screen resolution for "FINAL FANTASY XI" is dependent on the "Overlay Graphics Resolution" setting.
If the Overlay Graphics Resolution is set higher than the Menu Resolution, menus will be automatically resized.


I thought of it first:

http://ffxi.allakhazam.com/forum.html?forum=10&mid=130073657654872218#20
#15 Oct 22 2010 at 3:13 AM Rating: Good
Avatar
*
76 posts
In most MMO, Difficult = Teamwork. The more ppl needed to work together, the harder it is.

Also, the less error forgiving it is, the harder it is.
#16 Oct 22 2010 at 4:19 AM Rating: Good
Scholar
*
107 posts
OP is just dead wrong.

Just to clarify: I dislike WoW for many reason (just not my type), however it is NOT easier EASIER than FFXIV.

Watching a stamina guage to spam attack/tp is not 'difficult'. Rogues have a much deeper stamina bar in WoW. Heck most of the classes in WoW are more involved than FFXIV classes are currently (raiding may boil down to spamming 2-3 abilities on boss fights for efficiency but I couldn't count on my hands the amount of hot keys I needed available at any given point during a typical arena match).

Heck even in FFXI most of the boss fights were less 'involved' than wow boss matches. In XI/XIV difficulty is more about time consumpution. In WoW it's about gear checks and team co-ordination (try to get past the first boss in BWL w/o all 40 players knowing exactly what they should be doing).

In the end, WoW is not 'easy'... I have yet to see most of the high level raid content (BWL, AQ40 in vanilla, HLK in wrath, etc) in the game because of the difficulty. This is one of WoW's strengths IMO, it caters so well to both casuals and hardcore. It's easy to get in and get a lot done, but there is still top end content that will only be touched by the most dedicated.

This isn't to short sell FFXI however, it has many strengths over WoW (and why I prefer FFXI in many ways). It has a better story, more immersive environments, better community, etc. They're two different games and each would benefit by learning/adapting some of the qualities of the other.
#17 Oct 22 2010 at 6:35 AM Rating: Decent
Scholar
**
685 posts
Casuals don't need an "easy" game. The negativity that creates the "FFXIV fails at being casual friendly" stems mostly from people who fail to adapt to the vastly different gameplay XIV offers. Can anyone get to cap in no time at all? No. This may actually be a good thing because the more you play a job (such as having to play more to get to cap), the better acquainted you get with the job. Is a casual going to advance to cap in a short period of time? Heck no, but whenever you log on for 2-3 hours there is usually plenty to do right off the bat that you can be very entertained for the time you have and be able to log off feeling like you've accomplished something (because you have!).

The true difficulty really arises from 2 sources: new gameplay and unfinished product. The gameplay in XIV is pretty different, and it seems gamers have the hardest time adapting to new things. But if you just try to work within the system as given eventually the difficulty in the gameplay evaporates as you get used to it. The first step to doing this is to stop the complaining. Constructive criticism is useful to SE, yes, but being a whiny little runt bemoaning aspect of the game is not. The only thing constantly complaining about game mechanics is going to do for you as an individual is make you feel negative. When I feel overwhelmed by coursework, I don't sit there and constantly complain about how hard it is, I just get to work on it. I had an encounter last night on my linkshell with a member who wouldn't stop complaining about game mechanics. Apparently the only reason he's still playing is because he considers the money spent on his computer an investment. Remember, folks, SE developers don't read linkshell chats for advice! The only people you're talking to there are other players who have their own opinions on the game!

Now I'm not saying the game's perfect, that brings me to difficulty source 2: the unfinished product. Lots of things are missing from the game, I don't deny it. SE doesn't deny it. They're working on it. Patience is a virtue. And until the fixes are released everyone's can either deal with the unfinished aspects of the game or find ways around it. Don't like the ward system? Then find a crafter who will make that new piece of gear for you! Need raw materials in order to craft? Go farm them yourself! Heck farming for yourself makes synths cheaper to perform, giving you more profit in the end. And if you ask a crafter to make something for you, you might get a discount on that item! I made a bronze skillet and a bronze raising hammer for a LS mate the other night, only charged her 10k. Nice discount, I think. And all the materials and crystals I used to make them I either farmed myself or got from leves.

In the end my response to "the game is difficult" is "give it time and practice." It's only 1 month post-release, no one's mastered the game's mechanics yet. You don't go from never having played the piano to spotlighting in Carnegie Hall in a short period of time. You know how you get to Carnegie Hall? Practice.
____________________________

Crafter Consortium Craftsman/Gatherers Linkshell
#18 Oct 22 2010 at 6:48 AM Rating: Decent
**
602 posts
Yeah, XIV isn't hard. Its mash fest 101. I hope this changes once they fix the targetting, the hate management and add mobs that last longer for party play. I'm also hoping that doing aoe cure rapes the **** out of mages, because that gets abused a lot.
____________________________
FFXI: Dashiel. (Asura) Puppetmaster.
FFXIV: Majidah Sihaam. (Besaid)
Marauder, Weaver & Alchemist.

#19 Oct 22 2010 at 6:55 AM Rating: Good
**
589 posts
Quote:
Can anyone get to cap in no time at all? No.


Sorry but I'm 100% sure a few people will hit cap by Monday. There are already people in their high 40s.

That cant be used as a litmus test at all.
#20 Oct 22 2010 at 7:22 AM Rating: Default
Scholar
***
1,707 posts
First, anyone saying that FFXIV is just mashing a button over and over again clearly isn't utilizing more than a small percentage of their abilitities.

Second, of course its easy a month into the games existence. FFXI was easy too until you got into full parties around lvl 40 or so, then things started taking some learning and refining. FFXIV is even more strategic when it comes to managing hate when tanking. Add in the fact that you can utilize other class' abilities and this game has the potential to be much deeper than ffxi from a strategic/challenging standpoint.

****, no one is even regularly utilizing the skill chain functions in this game yet. And what about battles with multiple IT enemies when sleep, bind, gravity etc all start coming into play during routine battles.

It's very premature, and clearly incorrect, to say that FFXIV is just "mashing a button" over and over again. Sure, chess is an easy game too if you just blindly move pawns one step forward the entire game. But for other people, who actually try to be as good as they can, it can be one of the most mentally challenging games in the world (not saying ffxiv is like chess, just using an analogy)

And FFXI wasn't easy if you didn't want it to be. Personally, I only spent my time doing things that were challenging. Soloing things that other people used alliances to battle, for example. There was nothing easy about it and it generally took lots of strategic planningand lots of practice while getting killed over and over.

When people say that WoW was easy, I think they mean that there really just isn't much content that you can turn into a challenge even if you wanted to. There was no equivalent to soloing Hellmines on SMN or soloing Aquarius/Despot/etc on BST or all the ridiculous things you could do on RDM if you had skillz. There were no missions that took countless practices and attempts to complete because you had to exectute a flawless strategy with a group of 6 or 12 or even 18 players at once. Generally, in the easy games you either did it solo, or bum-rushed things with a lot of people mashing buttons.
#21 Oct 22 2010 at 7:29 AM Rating: Good
Scholar
***
1,707 posts
And to answer the OP's question... I beleive that a "dififcult" game that is catered to casual players would be tough to implement in an MMO fashion for a couple of reasons. First, you would have a very limited base of interested players, thus limiting potential revenue. Two, I think the diverse mix of players is what makes an MMO thrive. You don't want to run off all of hte players who just like to sit back and fish or craft or grind low level mobs all day. They add to the game weather its obvious or not.
#22 Oct 22 2010 at 7:31 AM Rating: Decent
Guru
**
254 posts
To me, I prefer to equate "difficulty" with "challenging." Because we're talking about games, here, and the word challenging has a more positive connotation to it, at least to me. To that end, the most challenging modern-day MMO that I've run across thus far is probably DDO.

Note that challenging doesn't mean "too hard to figure out/survive/get used to." It's just that DDO has incredibly in-depth character customization that takes time to get familiar with, active battle inputs (like FFXIV but more refined, as a years-old game should be) and scenarios that require a lot of teamwork and different skill sets to overcome, as long as you're doing something level-appropriate.

Anyone who has played the early/mid level adventure "The Pit" in a level-appropriate full party in DDO knows what I'm talking about, and this is but one example of many. It requires people to work together to solve puzzles, defeat ambushes, and navigate the twisting passageways. DDO is far from a perfect game but it's the best example I can point to for an MMO that demands a certain level of competence to play well.

Now, early Everquest was challenging primarily because death lurked around every corner from the moment you ventured outside the city. Aggressive enemies were common in every zone, including the newbie zones, plus many of them linked, and many of them would try to escape at low health that would cause additional links unless you disposed of them quickly. Combined with the harshest death penalties imaginable, this caused you to have that on-edge, fight or flight feeling for pretty much the whole time you were playing.

For pvp games like EvE and such, or DAoC (oh god that game was so fun before they nerfed everything to oblivion) the challenge comes from not getting ganked by a rival gang member. 'Cause that's what pvp MMOs are, they're like e-gang warfare. :p
____________________________
FFXI: Shassa (Sylph) 75 THF/NIN, THF/RNG, retired '08 ** EQ2: Shassia (Lucan D'Lere) 80 SK, retired '06 ** EQ: Shassa (Bertoxx/Terris Thule) 50 SK, retired '02
#23 Oct 22 2010 at 7:36 AM Rating: Good
Scholar
19 posts
nothing hard about ffxiv. It's just annoying as balls to actually play. You have to fight the horrible UI non stop. I'm not sure if that constitutes difficulty for a lot of players, but apparently fighting UI lagg is difficulty to fanboys.
#24 Oct 22 2010 at 7:40 AM Rating: Good
Scholar
**
283 posts
Mithsavvy wrote:
First, anyone saying that FFXIV is just mashing a button over and over again clearly isn't utilizing more than a small percentage of their abilitities.

Second, of course its easy a month into the games existence. FFXI was easy too until you got into full parties around lvl 40 or so, then things started taking some learning and refining. FFXIV is even more strategic when it comes to managing hate when tanking. Add in the fact that you can utilize other class' abilities and this game has the potential to be much deeper than ffxi from a strategic/challenging standpoint.

****, no one is even regularly utilizing the skill chain functions in this game yet. And what about battles with multiple IT enemies when sleep, bind, gravity etc all start coming into play during routine battles.

It's very premature, and clearly incorrect, to say that FFXIV is just "mashing a button" over and over again. Sure, chess is an easy game too if you just blindly move pawns one step forward the entire game. But for other people, who actually try to be as good as they can, it can be one of the most mentally challenging games in the world (not saying ffxiv is like chess, just using an analogy)

And FFXI wasn't easy if you didn't want it to be. Personally, I only spent my time doing things that were challenging. Soloing things that other people used alliances to battle, for example. There was nothing easy about it and it generally took lots of strategic planningand lots of practice while getting killed over and over.

When people say that WoW was easy, I think they mean that there really just isn't much content that you can turn into a challenge even if you wanted to. There was no equivalent to soloing Hellmines on SMN or soloing Aquarius/Despot/etc on BST or all the ridiculous things you could do on RDM if you had skillz. There were no missions that took countless practices and attempts to complete because you had to exectute a flawless strategy with a group of 6 or 12 or even 18 players at once. Generally, in the easy games you either did it solo, or bum-rushed things with a lot of people mashing buttons.


Just the fact that you don't need to do any of the stuff you talked about to get to the lvl cap proves how easy this game is. You can get to lvl cap in this game solo mashing nothing but your main attack skill over and over.(in other games this is called auto attack btw.)

BTW I would love to see the videos of people just mashing buttens to defeat old school Onyxia. I was a member of Ascent for the world first Rag kill and I can tell you we where not just mashing buttens. I am ******* sick and tierd of jerkoffs who never played WoW bashing it as easy. how many times did you do the fire fighter run? oh wait I bet you dont evon know what that is. You talk about needing 6 or 12 or even 18 ha! We needed 40 people all working to gether knowing what they where doing to get kills in old school WoW.

WoW was easy to cap out thats all. doing the old school raids took a lot of team work. It took 40 people all knowing there job to get a kill done. The new raids have an easy mode and a hard mode. and again go out and do fire fighter then come back here and call WoW easy!
#25 Oct 22 2010 at 7:44 AM Rating: Decent
Scholar
***
1,104 posts
Sethern79 wrote:
...and again go out and do fire fighter then come back here and call WoW easy!
Even the most unforgivably punishing encounters in WoW were/are still HIGHLY enjoyable. I don't know that I believe enjoyment is necessarily a function of challenge or difficulty.
____________________________

Melaahna Valiera
#26 Oct 22 2010 at 7:54 AM Rating: Decent
***
1,755 posts
Most people that consider wow easy never played the wow end game or raided 25 man hard mode anything they point to easy leveling and the cartoon graphics and say all of it is easy mode. That's far from the truth since leveling in wow is just a means to get to the end game it's a small part of the picture since the majority of your toon life will be spent end game.

Today FFXI seems to have embraced the same concept by accident or design I think by accidental byproduct they made getting from 30-85 a joke people can do it in 2 days in abyssea worm parties. Its about the end game and people learning to play at 85 the sad thing is many fast to 85 have no idea how to play the complex classes at 85 it takes work and study and thats true for both games.

FFXIV is just unfinished and poorly designed it really feels like they could have built off the best ideas of XI but they tossed out the baby with the bath water and started over from scratch with blindfolds on. I want to love a beautiful looking ff game but the gameplay and crafting and repair system all make me say WTF dudes can I have my ffxi menus and macros back and where is the windower team to fix this **** lol.....
____________________________
....::: All Jobs 99 but GEO and RUN :::....
Genbu [O] Suzaku [O] Seiryu [O] Byakko [O] Kirin [O] In Loving Memory of Kirin RIP 3/6/05
xXIEOSIXx Forums on Shiva



#27 Oct 22 2010 at 8:04 AM Rating: Good
**
602 posts
Mithsavvy wrote:
First, anyone saying that FFXIV is just mashing a button over and over again clearly isn't utilizing more than a small percentage of their abilitities.

Second, of course its easy a month into the games existence. FFXI was easy too until you got into full parties around lvl 40 or so, then things started taking some learning and refining. FFXIV is even more strategic when it comes to managing hate when tanking. Add in the fact that you can utilize other class' abilities and this game has the potential to be much deeper than ffxi from a strategic/challenging standpoint.

****, no one is even regularly utilizing the skill chain functions in this game yet. And what about battles with multiple IT enemies when sleep, bind, gravity etc all start coming into play during routine battles.

It's very premature, and clearly incorrect, to say that FFXIV is just "mashing a button" over and over again. Sure, chess is an easy game too if you just blindly move pawns one step forward the entire game. But for other people, who actually try to be as good as they can, it can be one of the most mentally challenging games in the world (not saying ffxiv is like chess, just using an analogy)

And FFXI wasn't easy if you didn't want it to be. Personally, I only spent my time doing things that were challenging. Soloing things that other people used alliances to battle, for example. There was nothing easy about it and it generally took lots of strategic planningand lots of practice while getting killed over and over.

When people say that WoW was easy, I think they mean that there really just isn't much content that you can turn into a challenge even if you wanted to. There was no equivalent to soloing Hellmines on SMN or soloing Aquarius/Despot/etc on BST or all the ridiculous things you could do on RDM if you had skillz. There were no missions that took countless practices and attempts to complete because you had to exectute a flawless strategy with a group of 6 or 12 or even 18 players at once. Generally, in the easy games you either did it solo, or bum-rushed things with a lot of people mashing buttons.


It doesn't sound like you've partied at all. In parties if you try to do something more elaborate than button mashing, the mob's dead.
____________________________
FFXI: Dashiel. (Asura) Puppetmaster.
FFXIV: Majidah Sihaam. (Besaid)
Marauder, Weaver & Alchemist.

#28 Oct 22 2010 at 8:05 AM Rating: Decent
5 posts
In the end, the true difficulty in any MMO is finding the 4/5/9/17/24/39 non-retarded people to fill your group with to do stuff with. With a competent group, anything is possible. With a bunch of mouth breathing retards, even walking through a regular dungeon in WoW can be an act that would have you bashing your face into your keyboard into frustration. The question at the end of the day becomes: how much retardation are you willing to stomach?
____________________________
FFXI:
Demeri - Hume - Cerberus
THF80 WAR80 PLD80 RNG80 NIN80

WoW:
Amuel - Spirestone - Horde - Paladin 80

FFXIV
Eibhear Ailill - Saronia - Noctem Aeternus
BSM20 ARM17 GLA17 WVR16 TAN14 MRD14 ALC13 LNC13 PUG12 GLD12 CPT12
#29 Oct 22 2010 at 8:08 AM Rating: Excellent
Scholar
***
1,104 posts
Mithsavvy wrote:
When people say that WoW was easy, I think they mean that there really just isn't much content that you can turn into a challenge even if you wanted to... There were no missions that took countless practices and attempts to complete because you had to exectute a flawless strategy with a group of 6 or 12 or even 18 players at once.
Raid much? It used to take 40 people. Only in recent years was the standard decreased to 25. Now, 10s seem to be the most popular as the new raiding system indicates.

Have you even PLAYED an MMO?


Edited, Oct 22nd 2010 2:08pm by Timorith
____________________________

Melaahna Valiera
#30 Oct 22 2010 at 8:16 AM Rating: Good
Scholar
***
1,707 posts
Whoa. I guess what I don't understand is why people get so offended when others refer to their game as being easy.

LOTRO was easy and I enjoyed it for that reason. FFXI was much more "difficult" and I enjoyed it for that reason. It really just depended on my mood for the day.

For the record, I have no issues with WoW. Comparing FF to WoW is like comparing apples and oranges. They are very similar and very different at the same time. Personal preferences should dictate which one you deem to be more enjoyable to play.

Personally, I have always preferrred slower-paced games over fast-paced. I'm not a FPS fan. I choose Command & Conquer over Medal of Honor, turn based over hack and slash, etc. Its no wonder I generally prefer the slow methodical ffxi over WoW. This is why I'm giving FFXIV a pretty long leash - in hopes that turns into a prettier FFXI.

The ****** reviews don't surprise me though because you are taking a style of gameplay that is not as popular os WoW, and then implementing it very poorly with lag, bugs, bad UI etc... and you are pretty much left with something that needs a lot of fixin' just to salvage the "cult" style player base that you are barely hanging on to.
#31 Oct 22 2010 at 8:21 AM Rating: Decent
Scholar
***
1,707 posts
Timorith wrote:
Mithsavvy wrote:
When people say that WoW was easy, I think they mean that there really just isn't much content that you can turn into a challenge even if you wanted to... There were no missions that took countless practices and attempts to complete because you had to exectute a flawless strategy with a group of 6 or 12 or even 18 players at once.
Raid much? It used to take 40 people. Only in recent years was the standard decreased to 25. Now, 10s seem to be the most popular as the new raiding system indicates.

Have you even PLAYED an MMO?

Edited, Oct 22nd 2010 2:08pm by Timorith


Just a couple. So yea, you got me there oh master of the MMO.

I apologize as I did not realize until now that I was supposed to be judging people based on the size of their online raids. I shall now return to the world in which I don't suck so much. /logout

#32 Oct 22 2010 at 8:43 AM Rating: Excellent
**
800 posts
If a developer makes a game strategically difficult, they alienate a large portion of potential players. But if they make a game difficult by means of time-sinks, then anyone can succeed, it's just a matter of when. For single player games, developers aren't really concerned with how long it takes a player to beat the game. In fact the tin foil hat wearer in me thinks that single player games are designed to be beaten fast so you go out and buy the sequel sooner. But with MMOs the profit comes from the monthly fee.

Developing truly challenging content is such a risk with MMOs. By definition if something is hard that means a percentage of players simply lack the skill to complete it. If most people could complete it, it wouldn't be hard. As a developer do you intentionally develop content that the majority of your players cannot do? I think the answer is no, although I am clearly not a game developer. So how then do developers add the illusion of difficulty without alienating anyone? Timesinks. You have to "work" for your rewards, and yet anyone can do so. Crafting, for example, is not challenging, but getting to rank 50 is "hard". Another alternative is to make different events that cater to the "casuals" and to the "hardcores", but that also creates such a divide in the community as to be unhealthy.

My opinion is that as long as the timesink is fun, I don't care if its a timesink. I am playing a video game to kill time afterall. If I wanted to accomplish something meaningful I'd vacuum or do the dishes. :D
#33 Oct 22 2010 at 9:23 AM Rating: Good
*
137 posts
It’s not difficulty we should be looking at but what about this game or any game makes it enjoyable. Having to do extra steps is not difficult. It is just an extra time sink. Take crafting. In FFXIV you have to add the recipe one item at a time. Then acknowledge that you want to make that item. Then start your standard, rapid, ….. and hope you succeed. Is this really harder, nope. It’s just extra repetitive steps. There is nothing difficult about any game. Just how much of a time sink you like to have in your game.
#34 Oct 22 2010 at 10:32 AM Rating: Good
Scholar
***
1,707 posts
Hydragyrum wrote:
If a developer makes a game strategically difficult, they alienate a large portion of potential players. But if they make a game difficult by means of time-sinks, then anyone can succeed, it's just a matter of when. For single player games, developers aren't really concerned with how long it takes a player to beat the game. In fact the tin foil hat wearer in me thinks that single player games are designed to be beaten fast so you go out and buy the sequel sooner. But with MMOs the profit comes from the monthly fee.

Developing truly challenging content is such a risk with MMOs. By definition if something is hard that means a percentage of players simply lack the skill to complete it. If most people could complete it, it wouldn't be hard. As a developer do you intentionally develop content that the majority of your players cannot do? I think the answer is no, although I am clearly not a game developer. So how then do developers add the illusion of difficulty without alienating anyone? Timesinks. You have to "work" for your rewards, and yet anyone can do so. Crafting, for example, is not challenging, but getting to rank 50 is "hard". Another alternative is to make different events that cater to the "casuals" and to the "hardcores", but that also creates such a divide in the community as to be unhealthy.

My opinion is that as long as the timesink is fun, I don't care if its a timesink. I am playing a video game to kill time afterall. If I wanted to accomplish something meaningful I'd vacuum or do the dishes. :D


Pretty good post. I would like ot say, however, that there's no reason that you can't intermix challenging aspects of the game and keep the less challenging aspects. Some people just like to do things to say they did it. Take the example of soloing Aquarius. I personally enjoy these more challenging tasks - and even more so when they drop a useless trophy just to show that you did it (Zoolander Hat, anyone?).



Edited, Oct 22nd 2010 11:32am by Mithsavvy

Edited, Oct 22nd 2010 11:32am by Mithsavvy
#35 Oct 22 2010 at 10:48 AM Rating: Good
37 posts
MajidahSihaam wrote:
It doesn't sound like you've partied at all. In parties if you try to do something more elaborate than button mashing, the mob's dead.


Thats all fine and good..... Unless you want SP....
#36 Oct 22 2010 at 11:23 AM Rating: Default
Scholar
***
2,742 posts
Why complicate things?

Difficulty means less people can do it

Easy means everyone can do it.

That is the simple definition.

If every john doe can finish the content then it is easy

If not every john doe can finish content then it is hard

If no john doe can finish content than it is impossible

Considering anyone with half a brain can do WoW, and not everyone can do FFXI, FFXI is harder. I have friends who finished WoW (or so they say) but cannot do merit party (meeting my approval) in FFXI if their life depended on it.
____________________________
FFXIV: Karamethien Seraphus (Blog)

FFXI: Karamethien
Still a Seraph Samurai Wanna Be
Fishing AF - Complete, SAM AF - Complete, RNG Af - Complete, RDM AF - 1/6
#37 Oct 22 2010 at 11:31 AM Rating: Decent
**
451 posts
Shassa wrote:
To me, I prefer to equate "difficulty" with "challenging." Because we're talking about games, here, and the word challenging has a more positive connotation to it, at least to me. To that end, the most challenging modern-day MMO that I've run across thus far is probably DDO.

Note that challenging doesn't mean "too hard to figure out/survive/get used to." It's just that DDO has incredibly in-depth character customization that takes time to get familiar with, active battle inputs (like FFXIV but more refined, as a years-old game should be) and scenarios that require a lot of teamwork and different skill sets to overcome, as long as you're doing something level-appropriate.

Anyone who has played the early/mid level adventure "The Pit" in a level-appropriate full party in DDO knows what I'm talking about, and this is but one example of many. It requires people to work together to solve puzzles, defeat ambushes, and navigate the twisting passageways. DDO is far from a perfect game but it's the best example I can point to for an MMO that demands a certain level of competence to play well.





I agree that DDO has some good challenge, but it's all front loaded. The end game is extremely weak. The game does a really good job at making level 1-20 feel like a game. The combat is pretty good once you wrap your head around it, 1000000 times better than FFXIV. But once you get to level 20 and start doing your raids like Heroic VoN it's pretty weak.

The most challenging part of "The Pit" is getting being the only one that knows your way around and guiding all the noobs that keep getting lost. I personally end up soloing it around level 10-12 with a hireling.
#38 Oct 22 2010 at 11:41 AM Rating: Decent
*
116 posts
I love people that call wow "easy" LOL. Let me first say, I am here playing this and not wow.. so take that and.. well you get the idea.

That said, Ive been playing MMOs for years and years, since before wow was an idea in some very lucky bliz dev's head. WoW has had some of the most difficult, dynamic, strategy requiring, timing, perfect execution requiring encounters compared to anything before or since. They arent the highest pop/grossing/sub MMO due to casual friendliness only.

I know you all want to argue, but 100 man CH zergs in EQ1 aside, where will you find another encounter like C'thun or Faerlina? And those are both ooold school encounters. Kael/Sunwell/IC the list goes on and somehow they continue to make each one different and difficult in its own way. Thats impressive in itself. Nonetheless I'm sure some of you have killed some of the aforementioned, and those are the people who would more than likely be agreeing with me. For those that havent, take a couple of your FF buddies, easymode level to 60/70/80 in WoW, and talk to me when you kill some of what end game wow has to offer. If thats easy, make sure i get some easy around here.

Oh, and eq1 was teh best mmo evar! For those that were old enough to remember it, there's a lil more reinforcement of my opinion on easy - if you can read between the lines.
#39 Oct 22 2010 at 11:51 AM Rating: Decent
*
82 posts
No game is difficult, the progression is.
WoW endgame is just as difficult as FFXI's, if truthfully, not harder.
Do people really need walls of text to say that?

Edited, Oct 22nd 2010 1:52pm by xSomnia
#40 Oct 22 2010 at 11:51 AM Rating: Decent
Scholar
**
283 posts
EQ avatar of war runs where fun as ****.
#41 Oct 22 2010 at 11:54 AM Rating: Good
Guru
**
254 posts
KristoFurwalken wrote:
I agree that DDO has some good challenge, but it's all front loaded. The end game is extremely weak. The game does a really good job at making level 1-20 feel like a game. The combat is pretty good once you wrap your head around it, 1000000 times better than FFXIV. But once you get to level 20 and start doing your raids like Heroic VoN it's pretty weak.

The most challenging part of "The Pit" is getting being the only one that knows your way around and guiding all the noobs that keep getting lost. I personally end up soloing it around level 10-12 with a hireling.


I 100% agree with the cruddy endgame, that's been an issue since DDO came out, hehe.

But as for your second comment, you all but prove my point. The Pit (and other quests like it) are challenging to the point that it really exposes poor players. So much, in fact, that you yourself admit that you will pretty much refuse to do it now unless you're with other vets. The quest is not impossible to navigate, or to avoid the traps, or to kill the mobs, even on your first time through. But it does require enough of a skill set that if one is easily turned around, or not proficient in combat, or not proficient in working with others, then they will find it too difficult to enjoy, let alone finish. The overall difficulty is spot-on and it's hard. It's earned a bad reputation in some circles but only because it isn't a mindless slashfest.

Coming back to FFXIV, I've seen no difficulty to the actual gameplay yet. Absolutely none. It's just a humongous grind at the moment. I look forward to some epic boss fights, quest lines, or things like BCNMs that require some strategy to overcome. Anything to break up the current tedium. Yeah, basically I'm begging for more content. :p
____________________________
FFXI: Shassa (Sylph) 75 THF/NIN, THF/RNG, retired '08 ** EQ2: Shassia (Lucan D'Lere) 80 SK, retired '06 ** EQ: Shassa (Bertoxx/Terris Thule) 50 SK, retired '02
#42 Oct 22 2010 at 11:57 AM Rating: Good
**
451 posts
JamesX wrote:
Why complicate things?

Difficulty means less people can do it

Easy means everyone can do it.

That is the simple definition.

If every john doe can finish the content then it is easy

If not every john doe can finish content then it is hard

If no john doe can finish content than it is impossible

Considering anyone with half a brain can do WoW, and not everyone can do FFXI, FFXI is harder. I have friends who finished WoW (or so they say) but cannot do merit party (meeting my approval) in FFXI if their life depended on it.


If your friends say they "finished" WoW they are dumb. Because you don't "finish" it. They prolly got to level 80 and could't get into any raids because they were noobs and they stopped.

I bet I could give you and all your friends 20 stacked level 80's, send you into AQ(a level 60 raid), and you go in and fail like a bunch of professional failers.

Very few people percentage wise have comepleted WoW endgame on time. Meaning, theres alot of people that have cleared Sunwell, but not during BC. Alot of people cleared AQ but not at level 60. And with todays raids theres alot of people that cleared ICC, but not Heroic 25.

I allways lol at people that think leveling to max level = winning the game.
#43 Oct 22 2010 at 12:07 PM Rating: Excellent
Guru
*
106 posts
JamesX wrote:
Why complicate things?

Difficulty means less people can do it

Easy means everyone can do it.

That is the simple definition.

If every john doe can finish the content then it is easy

If not every john doe can finish content then it is hard

If no john doe can finish content than it is impossible

Considering anyone with half a brain can do WoW, and not everyone can do FFXI, FFXI is harder. I have friends who finished WoW (or so they say) but cannot do merit party (meeting my approval) in FFXI if their life depended on it.


Define what you mean by "finshed WoW," because if you just mean they hit cap then i can't take you seriously. When you cap in WoW you are BEGINNING the game, not finishing. 1-80 in WoW these days is just a big tutorial to learn your class abilities.

Anyway, I've done plenty of both and progression raiding in WoW is definitely more challenging than merit partying in FFXI.

Matter of fact, i never really found any of the party leveling in FFXI to be very difficult. I still enjoyed it greatly (except for LFG), but it certainly wasn't hard. The biggest thing was wearing good gear and using the proper food. Beyond that the combat was rather slow-paced and there weren't many abilities to keep track of. Sure, a few jobs were more difficult, but, on a whole, FFXI party leveling was pretty simple.
#44 Oct 22 2010 at 12:36 PM Rating: Good
Plays better than you
*****
11,852 posts
Curth79 wrote:
I consider WoW to be easy due to the fact that the gameplay is EASY. There really is no strategy involved, as long as you have gear you can go through pretty much anything in the game with little issues at all as long as your team has some degree of minor intelligence.


WoW is only easy if you want it to be easy. The way you put it leads me to believe you've never see the hard side of WoW. You can level to the cap solo in WoW, without any difficulty, so many people come from FFXI, level part way to the cap, and conclude that the game is easy. (I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that you might be included in that group).

There is nothing in FFXI or FFXIV that takes anywhere close the skill and precision of 2200+ arena in WoW. There is nothing that comes even close to the complexity and required coordination of hard-mode raids in WoW.

There are very few things that are actually difficult in the FFXI/FFXIV games - just a LOT of things that take time, repetition, and require a "player" to engage in tasks that do not resemble games. (I put "player" in quotes because it is hard to consider yourself to be playing anything when you're standing and waiting for a mob to pop for hours, for example).

Hard and Tedious are not the same thing.
____________________________
Trubbles Stormborn - 25 ARC / 22 CNJ ... 18 FSH / 14 CUL

#45 Oct 22 2010 at 2:03 PM Rating: Decent
**
473 posts
What if we started all MMO's with maximum gold, goldium armour (platinum+gold put together and yes I amde it up), max level, and godmode on . . . . .

It seems every complains about the way to end game in MMO's every MMO or RPG for that matter has a grind aspect, grinp exp, grind leve's, grind quests . . . . Its the path to end game and exp curves are the way they are so that we can take in the content from start to finish and each developer has their own way of getting players to end game.

I don't mind grinding and the time investment to get there, what bothers me is broken features. FFXIV is subject to that with party sp not being equal or close to equal, I would like that looked at.

WOW is easy nor hard just takes less time to get to end game, and I know blizzard has hardmode mobs, as does SE, or any other MMO developer. A MMO needs these things to keep players interested.
#46 Oct 22 2010 at 2:28 PM Rating: Default
Scholar
19 posts
FilthMcNasty wrote:
Curth79 wrote:
I consider WoW to be easy due to the fact that the gameplay is EASY. There really is no strategy involved, as long as you have gear you can go through pretty much anything in the game with little issues at all as long as your team has some degree of minor intelligence. Let's be honest, the game is easy. On the other hand I do consider FFXIV to be much more difficult due to actually having to think on what to use next due to the limited stamina in order to execute the move, the mob's aoe ability, keeping aggro (which is more difficult than wow imo), basically you gotta make the right choices, watch the aoe, and be careful and strategical when fighting.


You point out that WoW is easy due to lack of strategy(gameplay in your words), yet you also admit to having no endgame experience... No one is going to take you seriously. Especially when all of the reasons you list for FFXIV being difficult are all present in WoW, GW, FFXI and pretty much any other MMO.

I do agree with Timorith on this one though. The reason WoW seems easier is that there are so many more players who go through content that the strategies are common knowledge maybe a week after release. Compare this to FFXI(because there is no endgame in FFXIV) and you'll see that there are still mobs in the game which have yet to be beaten, at least with the means which developers had in mind during their creation. You definitely can't blame gear since the dev team who beat it was obviously wearing sub par gear by endgame standards. Perhaps it is too difficult? Maybe these players lack "some degree of minor intelligence"?
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------









This wasn't meant to be a bashing post at all. And where did I say I never experienced end-game wow? I have plenty of end-game experience, as one of the more "difficult" classes, a Shaman.

the entire reasoning for the post was not to compare the two games, but was to ask why is difficulty defined by the amount of time you have to waste instead of the gameplay and mechanics?


And when I said that FFXIV seemed harder at this point, I was referring to group play against red con mobs, not soloing against blue/greens, or even yellows.. yeah.. that's pretty easy at this point :)


Edited, Oct 22nd 2010 5:00pm by Curth79
____________________________
-----------------------------------------------
Tyrrien Irinnis
Lancer
Rabanastre Server
#47 Oct 22 2010 at 2:39 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
19 posts
Quote:
Now on this statement I'll both agree with you, and at the same time completely disagree with you. The part I agree with is that WoW has become much easier and much less rewarding for end game raiding guilds. Once Blizzard implemented achievments, instance difficulty went to crap, because they wanted everyone to experence endgame content. However as for Sunwell (The last good WoW instance) it was on par or greater difficulty then anything I encountered in FFXI. But what shocks me here is that you say FFXIV is much more difficult than WoW..... Why? because you have to watch a stamina bar and make sure you have enough before using your ability? Well that's just silly. Try being an oldschool totem twisting shaman and you tell me which game more difficult. Look reading these two paragrahs alone tell me that you have probably never completed any end game in WoW, so I'm sorry if you didn't understand some of the terms that I used.


I was an oldschool totem twisting shaman, I know what you're talking about, and yes I did experience in-game and quite a bit of it. As I stated before, this wasn't meant to compare the two games to each other, but actually to ask the question why is a "difficult" MMO considered to be one that just takes longer? That's a horrible thing IMO, let difficult mean difficult and not be defined as time consuming.

I remember the early days of EQ and trying to go through BB. Now to me, that was a challenge.
____________________________
-----------------------------------------------
Tyrrien Irinnis
Lancer
Rabanastre Server
#48 Oct 22 2010 at 2:46 PM Rating: Default
Scholar
19 posts
Nutchoss wrote:
OP is just dead wrong.

Just to clarify: I dislike WoW for many reason (just not my type), however it is NOT easier EASIER than FFXIV.

Watching a stamina guage to spam attack/tp is not 'difficult'. Rogues have a much deeper stamina bar in WoW. Heck most of the classes in WoW are more involved than FFXIV classes are currently (raiding may boil down to spamming 2-3 abilities on boss fights for efficiency but I couldn't count on my hands the amount of hot keys I needed available at any given point during a typical arena match).

Heck even in FFXI most of the boss fights were less 'involved' than wow boss matches. In XI/XIV difficulty is more about time consumpution. In WoW it's about gear checks and team co-ordination (try to get past the first boss in BWL w/o all 40 players knowing exactly what they should be doing).

In the end, WoW is not 'easy'... I have yet to see most of the high level raid content (BWL, AQ40 in vanilla, HLK in wrath, etc) in the game because of the difficulty. This is one of WoW's strengths IMO, it caters so well to both casuals and hardcore. It's easy to get in and get a lot done, but there is still top end content that will only be touched by the most dedicated.

This isn't to short sell FFXI however, it has many strengths over WoW (and why I prefer FFXI in many ways). It has a better story, more immersive environments, better community, etc. They're two different games and each would benefit by learning/adapting some of the qualities of the other.



Again, to clarify, my objective was not to compare the two games to each other, but ask the question why does the time you have to sit-down to an MMO define the difficulty of the MMO? Why can't we have game mechanics and challenges define the MMO's difficulty and not the amount of free time that one has?

And also, I do consider FFXIV to be more difficult than WoW as there is no holding of hands, no exclamation marks, no question marks, it's just throwing you into the world and you must explore for yourself.

Yet, the game still is being defined as "difficult" becuase it takes approximately 1,223,221 hours to reach cap. Why is time the determining factor of difficulty in MMOs today?

NOTE: I said that FFXIV seems more difficult to me than WoW, I did not say "FFXIV is a difficult game!" yet the mechanics seem to be more difficult IN MY OPINION. But again, the post is to ask the question why do MMO developers define difficult by the amount of time one puts into the game?
____________________________
-----------------------------------------------
Tyrrien Irinnis
Lancer
Rabanastre Server
#49 Oct 22 2010 at 2:53 PM Rating: Decent
Scholar
***
2,742 posts
Izuul wrote:
Define what you mean by "finshed WoW," because if you just mean they hit cap then i can't take you seriously. When you cap in WoW you are BEGINNING the game, not finishing. 1-80 in WoW these days is just a big tutorial to learn your class abilities.

Anyway, I've done plenty of both and progression raiding in WoW is definitely more challenging than merit partying in FFXI.

Matter of fact, i never really found any of the party leveling in FFXI to be very difficult. I still enjoyed it greatly (except for LFG), but it certainly wasn't hard. The biggest thing was wearing good gear and using the proper food. Beyond that the combat was rather slow-paced and there weren't many abilities to keep track of. Sure, a few jobs were more difficult, but, on a whole, FFXI party leveling was pretty simple.

I have no idea what they meant by finishing WoW. They came back to FF saying we did everything, it got borinng.

But when they tried to Merit with me in FFXI they simply as not very good. Ineffecient, can't manage mp, can't seems to get party dynamics.

Which is why I said FFXI is more difficult :) because they can't do even the simple thing of merit party well.
____________________________
FFXIV: Karamethien Seraphus (Blog)

FFXI: Karamethien
Still a Seraph Samurai Wanna Be
Fishing AF - Complete, SAM AF - Complete, RNG Af - Complete, RDM AF - 1/6
#50 Oct 22 2010 at 3:20 PM Rating: Good
****
4,146 posts
Curth79 wrote:
Again, to clarify, my objective was not to compare the two games to each other, but ask the question why does the time you have to sit-down to an MMO define the difficulty of the MMO? Why can't we have game mechanics and challenges define the MMO's difficulty and not the amount of free time that one has?

And also, I do consider FFXIV to be more difficult than WoW as there is no holding of hands, no exclamation marks, no question marks, it's just throwing you into the world and you must explore for yourself.


The time it takes to complete objectives doesn't equate to the difficulty. See all the quests in FFXI, WoW or any other MMO that simply require you to traverse the world speaking to NPCs. Takes time to get around, but interacting with an NPC is not difficult. If you don't want your hand held in WoW you can simply deselect the check box for the option to display quest flags. It is there mostly for beginners or people who don't have time to interact with every NPC in an area. Any MMO these days has a wiki that will give you basically the same information so either way it doesn't really matter.

Speaking to your question, it is more difficult to reach the cap in FFXIV due to the surplus mechanic. You are basically limited to a certain amount of experience or skillpoints based on time. This is why people relate time and difficulty in terms of leveling. Your personal opinion of what makes FFXIV more difficult than WoW relates to mechanics which are basically the same(to varying degrees) across all MMOs. If you had endgame experience you would see that in WoW there are dozens of raids that require nearly as many different strategies in terms of where you are, where the mob is positioned, which spells and abilities are crucial to survival, maximizing dps and so on. In FFXI you could apply as many strategies as you could count on one hand to nearly any boss encounter. There are very few exceptions(see AV). Keeping these 4-5 strategies in mind it takes far less attempts to down a boss in FFXI.

Since I personally like to complete endgame content in MMOs I base difficulty on the amount of coordination and execution required to complete that content.
____________________________
Rinsui wrote:
Only hips + boobs all day and hips + boobs all over my icecream

HaibaneRenmei wrote:
30 bucks is almost free

cocodojo wrote:
Its personal preference and all, but yes we need to educate WoW players that this is OUR game, these are Characters and not Toons. Time to beat that into them one at a time.
#51 Oct 22 2010 at 3:24 PM Rating: Good
***
3,178 posts
I understand what you mean OP. I have 4 kids myself and progressing in FFXI is no longer a viable option.

Endgame play is designed for people with alot of time, to keep them playing and paying.

I'm afraid you are confusing your newfound responsibilties and lack of playtime with some kind of design flaw. I share the same frustration at the world for not being able to play games as much as I would like.

Don't be mad at the game, be mad at your kids.

« Previous 1 2
This forum is read only
This Forum is Read Only!
Recent Visitors: 25 All times are in CST
Anonymous Guests (25)